Go Brewer! by Niki2

REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Go Brewer!

POSTED BY: NIKI2
UPDATED: Thursday, April 21, 2011 13:12
SHORT URL:
VIEWED: 1471
PAGE 1 of 1

Tuesday, April 19, 2011 12:45 PM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Quote:
Arizona governor Jan Brewer has vetoed two controversial pieces of legislation, putting an end to the so-called “birther bill” which would require presidential candidates to provide long-form birth certificates to the Arizona secretary of state in order to be placed on the ballot. Her veto also stopped a controversial law which would have allowed gun owners to carry guns on college and K-12 campuses.
Quote:
HB 2177, the “birther” bill, “creates significant new problems while failing to do anything constructive for Arizona,” Brewer said.

The bill would have required presidential candidates to present their birth certificates or other birth records to be eligible to be on the ballot.

“As a former Secretary of State (sic), I do not support designating one person as the gatekeeper to the ballot for a candidate, which could lead to arbitrary or politically-motivated decisions,” Brewer wrote in her veto message to House Speaker Kirk Adams.

“In addition, I never imagined being presented with a bill that could require candidates for President (sic) of the greatest and most powerful nation on earth to submit their “early baptismal or circumcision certificates” among other records to the Arizona Secretary of State. This is a bridge too far,” Brewer wrote.
I will say it again: Arizona is full of surprises, and Brewer is no exception. You just don’t know what on earth to expect from the woman. One moment she’s defending the most controversial piece of immigration legislation in the country, SB 1070, the next she’s turning against her own party and pulling out the veto pen on gun rights and birtherism.

I’m not complaining, mind you. The birther bill is an embarrassment and the gun law is just asking for trouble. But I am surprised. I guess when push comes to shove, reasonable ideas win out over fearmongering and paranoia – maybe not every time, but often enough to keep our society from capsizing.

I never thought I’d say this, but good for you governor Brewer.

Wow. Never thought I'd say it either, but huzzah Jan Brewer. I'm impressed. Now, if she could just get her head on straight about the rest...

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Tuesday, April 19, 2011 6:20 PM

DREAMTROVE

Her support of Obama isn't too surprising, he's responsible for where she is now. I agree on the ban on guns in schools. I hope this applies to campus security as well.

That's what a ship is, you know - it's not just a keel and a hull and a deck and sails, that's what a ship needs.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Tuesday, April 19, 2011 6:32 PM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht

As for K-12 I agree that no one should be bringing a gun to school, but college ... ? I'm not as convinced. I don't really understand why many people would want to, but what about people with concealed weapon permits, can they bring guns to college or are they not allowed to either? Just wondering.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Tuesday, April 19, 2011 6:46 PM

DREAMTROVE

There have been some horrible college shootings. Also, campus cops with guns are a serious threat.

That's what a ship is, you know - it's not just a keel and a hull and a deck and sails, that's what a ship needs.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Tuesday, April 19, 2011 7:36 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Hello,

I believe that law abiding adults should be able to take their guns anywhere, especially with the proper permits.

But I can imagine someone who experienced a campus shooting might choose to disagree.

--Anthony

_______________________________________________

“If you are not free to choose wrongly and irresponsibly, you are not free at all”

Jacob Hornberger

“Freedom is not worth having if it does not connote freedom to err. It passes my comprehension how human beings, be they ever so experienced and able, can delight in depriving other human beings of that precious right.”

Mahatma Gandhi

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, April 20, 2011 3:03 AM

DREAMTROVE

Anthony,

Take your guns to work day? Guns in the workplace. Dogbert with a gun. Catbert with a gun. The new "Boss carries an AK" standard of management.

Guns on campus will belong to two types of people, authorities, and psychopaths. I'm thankful that when my roommate actually did try to kill me (and he was quite serious about it) it had slipped his mind that he had hidden a loaded M16 in the room. A fact he remembered later when they came to take him away.

I also remember the sniper on top of the admin building. I also know the abuses which happen when campus cops have guns: Mostly rape, rape and more rape.

We once tested the theory that most campus crime came from the campus cops. We investigated a number of stories. Afterward, we concluded that virtually all campus crime came from campus cops.

Any institution has the right to keep weapons out of its home, just as you do. No, Joe, you cannot bring your grenades into my home.

How are you on guns in church?

That's what a ship is, you know - it's not just a keel and a hull and a deck and sails, that's what a ship needs.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, April 20, 2011 7:29 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Interesting, DT, that you see her actions and "supporting Obama" rather than someone making a logical choice not to pass a bad law. Do you think every law passed is to support one person or another, and dismiss completely the idea that a legislator might choose one side or the other on an issue because of it's merits?

I don't see Brewer as supporting Obama AT ALL, far from it! I see her as making a decision that some thing are just too stupid to make into law, and then have to spend the time and money fighting for, only to lose in the end. I dislike Brewer; but I respect her recognition of this particular stupid issue as one not worth trying to make a "law" about.

Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, April 20, 2011 8:02 AM

HARDWARE

Quote:
Originally posted by dreamtrove:
Anthony,

Take your guns to work day? Guns in the workplace. Dogbert with a gun. Catbert with a gun. The new "Boss carries an AK" standard of management.

Guns on campus will belong to two types of people, authorities, and psychopaths. I'm thankful that when my roommate actually did try to kill me (and he was quite serious about it) it had slipped his mind that he had hidden a loaded M16 in the room. A fact he remembered later when they came to take him away.

I also remember the sniper on top of the admin building. I also know the abuses which happen when campus cops have guns: Mostly rape, rape and more rape.

We once tested the theory that most campus crime came from the campus cops. We investigated a number of stories. Afterward, we concluded that virtually all campus crime came from campus cops.

Any institution has the right to keep weapons out of its home, just as you do. No, Joe, you cannot bring your grenades into my home.

How are you on guns in church?

Yes sirree! Passing those laws stopped all them bad people what wanted to shoot people on school grounds with guns! Why, if we didn't have have that law we'd have shooting in high schools, colleges and universities.

There's not enough facepalm in the world for me to express the mind-boggling display of illogic in anyone who supports a no guns on campus policy.

Also DT, I love how you divide any armed individual into authority figure and psychopath. The possibility of a armed, responsible adult just isn't even on your event horizon? Sad that an adult has such a restricted point of view.

Here's a link that allows you to search an archive of armed citizens protecting themselves from crime. It goes as far back as 1958 and is searchable by keyword. Enter your state and see how many events have been documented. And remember, these are only the things that have appeared in the NRA's magazines through the years. The things that happen locally almost never make the news.

http://www.nraila.org/armedcitizen/

As far as guns in the workplace, I have one at work. It is a non-issue. In fact, the gun shops I frequent require their employees to carry guns. I bet they are constantly having to fill out OSHA forms because a gun fight erupted when someone ate someone else's lunch out of the refrigerator. And let us not forget how police officers are constantly shooting one another when they have an argument. There's no way to avoid gunplay when those evil guns are making them shoot the people they are unhappy with.

As far as guns in churches...
http://www.rockymountainnews.com/photos/2009/jan/07/107657/
You may remember back in '07, a gunman walked into a Colorado church service shooting. While the congregation fled an armed worshiper, acting as security, shot and killed the assailant.
http://www.rockymountainnews.com/news/2008/dec/06/hailed-as-heroine-te
sted-by-lifes-challenges/
Shall I list the number of church shootings in recent years?

The more I get to know people the more I like my dogs.

...and he that has no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one. Luke 22:36

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, April 20, 2011 8:28 AM

STORYMARK

Quote:
Originally posted by Hardware:

There's not enough facepalm in the world for me to express the mind-boggling display of illogic in anyone who supports a no guns on campus policy.

Also not enough facepalm for those in the world who consider their opinion to be logical, based solely their believing it so gosh darned much.

The fallacies and generalities in the rest of the post, well, they're just good comedy.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, April 20, 2011 8:53 AM

JONGSSTRAW

The Arizona legislature easily has enough votes to override Brewer's veto if they want to. I'm not sure that they will though. Arizona doesn't need another pr nightmare on their hands; they already are reeling economically from past policies.

But there are at least a dozen or so more states with the same "birther" bills making their way through their state legislatures. At least one Republican governor said he would sign the law the moment he had it on his desk.

Well then, what happens after that? Will there have to be multiple legal challenges by Obama questioning states' rights in Federal elections over the FEC? I guess so.

Seems like a gigantic waste of time, and it also seems to this Conservative to be nothing more than a dirty trick, an act of revenge, sour grapes, or whatever euphemism replaces subtle racism these days.

Jeesh, isn't there more than enough of Obama's performance to run against without this birther crap? Sometimes I wanna hide under a rock when I see the crop of Republicans gearing up to challenge Obama. Right now, even with $4 gas, high un-employment, and 3 wars, he'd still crush any of them according to latest Gallop & Rassmussen polls.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, April 20, 2011 9:31 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Quote:
Seems like a gigantic waste of time, and it also seems to this Conservative to be nothing more than a dirty trick, an act of revenge, sour grapes, or whatever euphemism replaces subtle racism these days.

Jeesh, isn't there more than enough of Obama's performance to run against without this birther crap? Sometimes I wanna hide under a rock when I see the crop of Republicans gearing up to challenge Obama. Right now, even with $4 gas, high un-employment, and 3 wars, he'd still crush any of them according to latest Gallop & Rassmussen polls.

Well said, in my opinion, JS, and speaks to the heart of the matter. I, too, would LOVE to see a viable Republican candidate, believe it or not; I've said again and again that I WANT this to be a two-party (or preferably more) system. There IS room for a viable candidate to run against enough of what Obama's done to challenge him, but this shit is just pure stupidity and, you're right, embarrassing even to ME, as an American. Right or left doesn't matter with regard to this idiocy; that we have people supposedly legislating our government who are pulling this crap says things I don't like to think about regarding America.

Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, April 20, 2011 2:10 PM

FREMDFIRMA

I'm actually with Hardware on this - given that a lot of campus crime happens BECAUSE the college students are made defenseless, perfect silver platter victims...

Again, point blank range, EMU is just down the street from here, and not long ago one of the (unarmed) guards was beaten half to death nearby in part because she was unarmed (and poorly trained, and made several IDIOTIC tactical mistakes, but I digress...) and then there was one of the campus cops who was a fucking rapist, and just how easy that made it for him.

Anyhow, having a piece isn't gonna protect you from being a complete moron, and not paying attention and all the other things which can often prevent ever needing it - but sometimes it really *does* come down to how you're going to stand off the six foot one, 220lb angry stoned, drunken bastard who wants something from you and doesn't see how you're going to stop him from getting it.

Of course, one of the LAST ones got worked over so badly with a cattle prod one of the burns needed a skin graft, but I figure it's a vital life lesson to him - sure better than the mere probation, PBJ, or dropped for lack of evidence case should he have been caught...

And yet the "authorities" consider it a greater crime that someone defended themself and desperately sought, to no avail, who might have done that so they could be persecu...err, prosecuted.

The first step to not NEEDING weapons in our society, is not enabling predators by making self-defense a scorned and criminal action, because most of these bastards DEPEND on that submission reaction and the lack of folks willing and able to defend themselves - for look what happens, how flummoxed they are, when someone DOES resist, armed or not - and in that case the perp almost always LOSES.
http://freedominourtime.blogspot.com/2011/02/dont-resist-refrain-of-ra
pists-police.html

You wanna eliminate violence and the need for weapons, denial isn't the way to do it.
Conversely, I don't carry on duty, I have no need to since I am specifically operating at code orange or above at the time - but more than that, I have the support of this community, allies trump bullets, and the only "weapon" I carry at all is an old style whistle nicknamed The Horn of Gondor - which works because unlike the pissants of the local "law enforcement", I most certainly will *NOT* agress upon, report, or have arrested, someone acting in self defense or the defense of another - even if "the law" says I should.

And they KNOW that, as opposed to a neighborhood where driving off a pervert attempting to kidnap a girl with a gun is likely to get YOU arrested.

You criminalize self-defense, in essence you're handing the bad actors one gimme after another.

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, April 20, 2011 3:28 PM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht

A DT a chara,
I understand where you are coming from, you've had some experiences with guns on campus that are bad and scary, what with the roommate and your investigation into campus cop crime. So it makes sense to me that you have that policy and I totally support your right to feel that way.

But I have to side with Hardware, Anthony and Frem on this one: Lets pretend that Anthony (I just picked you randomly) has a concealed weapons permit and goes back to school. Some cstudent who's out of control bursts in and starts shooting randomly in the hallway, people begin dropping. Anthony can whip out his piece and shoot the person, thus preventing other people from dropping. If someone had been carrying at Virginia Tech maybe 32 people wouldn't have died that day. So that's why I'm okay with guns at college, if they are being carried by individuals who have the apropriate permits etc. But I still don't think people should have them at k-12 school.

As for church, I know someone at my church who packs, I think a lot of us know and we're all totally cool with it. In fact I'd forgotten about it until I read this post. Someone could show up at church and start shootin just as easily as they can show up at the local university.

One thing I appreciate about you Niki, you seem more based on specific issues than you are on specific candidates. If you agree with something someone does, or doesn't do, you say it, whether they are in your party of choice or not. If I were ever in office (I don't think that will be happening but hey) I'd vote on issues, not party lines and I think that's important. The other thing though is voting how your constituants would want you to vote, even if it isn't how you feel, I'd really struggle with that, even though I know its right to listen and vote according to what they want, I just don't think I could always do it, one of the many reasons I won't run for office.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, April 20, 2011 3:35 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)

I only wanted to ask a couple questions of Governor Good-Hair when he was going on about wanting guns on college campuses. "Does that include long-range hunting rifles?" and "Didn't y'all just reopen the observation deck of the UT Tower a couple years ago?"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Whitman

Austin doesn't have a great history with allowing guns on campus.

But as was pointed out by Richard Linklater in his first film, "Slacker", "Charles Whitman put this town on the map, man!"

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Thursday, April 21, 2011 5:49 AM

HARDWARE

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Whitman

Austin doesn't have a great history with allowing guns on campus.

But as was pointed out by Richard Linklater in his first film, "Slacker", "Charles Whitman put this town on the map, man!"
John Stuart Mill

Yes, and I noticed that the police stopped him by throwing candy canes at him.

Argument destroyed.

The more I get to know people the more I like my dogs.

...and he that has no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one. Luke 22:36

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Thursday, April 21, 2011 6:08 AM

PIZMOBEACH

... fully loaded, safety off...

I took the liberty of making some changes to illustrate how it cuts both ways.

Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:

Anyhow, having a piece isn't gonna protect you from being a complete moron, and not paying attention and all the other things which can often prevent ever needing it - but sometimes it really *does* come down to how you're going to stand off the six foot one, 220lb angry stoned, drunken bastard who [HAS BROUGHT A GUN TO SCHOOL] wants something from you and [IS TOO DRUNK TO SEE] how you're going to stop him from getting it.

Hardware and Frem - do you guys really trust other people with guns that much?? Is it such a fraternity that there's no question in your minds that more humans with guns is automatically better? I think gun owners too easily put themselves in the situation and think - probably/possibly rightly - that they would make the right decision. Trouble is, it's not you there and it's not your trusted buddy who knows how to shoot - it could be someone hopped up on ego and the dangerous desire to be a hero, or some drunk asshole.
Try this: think of the posters on this board - would you trust all of us with a gun in a tight situation?

Scifi movie music + Firefly dialogue clips, 24 hours a day - http://www.scifiradio.com

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Thursday, April 21, 2011 6:28 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Quote:
Originally posted by pizmobeach:
I took the liberty of making some changes to illustrate how it cuts both ways.

Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:

Anyhow, having a piece isn't gonna protect you from being a complete moron, and not paying attention and all the other things which can often prevent ever needing it - but sometimes it really *does* come down to how you're going to stand off the six foot one, 220lb angry stoned, drunken bastard who [HAS BROUGHT A GUN TO SCHOOL] wants something from you and [IS TOO DRUNK TO SEE] how you're going to stop him from getting it.

Hardware and Frem - do you guys really trust other people with guns that much?? Is it such a fraternity that there's no question in your minds that more humans with guns is automatically better? I think gun owners too easily put themselves in the situation and think - probably/possibly rightly - that they would make the right decision. Trouble is, it's not you there and it's not your trusted buddy who knows how to shoot - it could be someone hopped up on ego and the dangerous desire to be a hero, or some drunk asshole.
Try this: think of the posters on this board - would you trust all of us with a gun in a tight situation?

Scifi movie music + Firefly dialogue clips, 24 hours a day - http://www.scifiradio.com

Hello,

I think there are definitely some yahoos here that I wouldn't want to have anywhere near me, especially if they had a weapon.

But I wouldn't arbitrarily strip them of their rights just because they make me uncomfortable. Or because of what I think they might do. Or because I can imagine a situation where one of them might be extremely dangerous.

I also won't strip them of their rights just because someone else did something wrong, or ten someone else's. Or a hundred. Or a thousand. Or ten thousand.

I try not to use my anxiety or fear as a policy maker. I try to rely on more solid, more personal evidence of misconduct before I start limiting what people can do.

I live in a place where people I don't trust have weapons. Have children. Have cars. Don't you?

To me, the price of freedom isn't sending some poor kid to die in some war somewhere.

To me, the price of freedom is knowing that me and mine might suffer or die because my society didn't squash all the potential danger and misconduct in my own country.

--Anthony

_______________________________________________

“If you are not free to choose wrongly and irresponsibly, you are not free at all”

Jacob Hornberger

“Freedom is not worth having if it does not connote freedom to err. It passes my comprehension how human beings, be they ever so experienced and able, can delight in depriving other human beings of that precious right.”

Mahatma Gandhi

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Thursday, April 21, 2011 7:13 AM

FREMDFIRMA

Gonna happen anyway Piz - until your precious magic wand can magically disappear guns out of the hands of criminals, till your gun free zone can magically stop a gun or bullet from crossing that line, all you have done is loaded the balance of power in favor of the bad guys.

Which is in part WHY things are as awful as they are, the "solution", as is all too common, is in fact much of the cause - vilifying self-defense (and I don't mean just guns, I mean the CONCEPT, which I will discuss at length if you like) has no good result.

Kid can't behave, throw em some ritalin - what, now a sleep disorder, how bout some clonidine - what's that, depression, here, have some paxil too...

Same thing nationally, with the middle east, we're like the old lady who swallowed a spider, or even better yet, prohibition, and since THAT worked so perfectly, how bout the War on (some) Drugs eh ?
MORE penalties, harsher penalties, confiscation, forfeiture, and lets just ignore those pesky amendments...

Oh that worked SO FUCKING WELL, that now you'd like to apply it to guns, right ?
(never mind that the second amendment relates to personal defense as well as national)
Do you honestly think a methodology that has never once worked in practice is suddenly, magically going to work cause it concerns an issue you think should be addressed that way ?

Besides, you're blaming a tool, an object, an inanimate THING, when it's people you should be concerned about, and why they do things, not what they do things WITH.

I have a different view of the situation, one that has actually become more important to me thanks in large part to failing health and declining physical capacity, I am 5' 6" and maybe, just maybe, 150lbs soakin wet with boots on, AND getting old with lots of lingering damage, surgical replacements and repair patchwork all over the damn place and a prosthetic leg that's wonky and doesn't work so well on occasion - bruce fucking lee I ain't, and the idea of me outrunning some wacked out yahoo is downright laughable.
http://munchkinwrangler.wordpress.com/2007/03/23/why-the-gun-is-civili
zation/

Besides which, where do YOU get the idea of that CCW holders are all fucking wackjobs save from your own prejudices - you ever been to a CCW class, might I ask ?
They're as a whole folk who *DID* jump through a lot of bullshit legal hoops in order to exert a right that should not even be questioned.
(proof of that, read state constitutions, 90% of em stated that, in those exact words - SHALL NOT BE QUESTIONED, and I posted a list thereof here, at least once)
So generally a MORE, not less, law abiding sort, cause any obvious wackos tend to get weeded out by the process itself.

Disarming folk like me has no effect on some meth-addled or coked up yahoo who bought hisself a piece from the pusherman, who can get a zillion more right along with the same shipment his dope comes in, while folks like you all the while throw a hissy about legal gun shops where you practically have to let em measure your cock before they hand it over, and then put you on a "list" like the one they used during Katrina...

All that does, is load the potential engagement in the bad guys favor, which results in more crime, and then what, MORE ineffective laws which abuse the populace, MORE penalties against folk who were acting in clear self defense - ban sharp objects, on and on till we're all in rubber rooms and the goons have taken over everything outside of them cause there's nothing to stand up to them WITH ?

I am a rabid partisan about this issue for some very logical reasons, and even so consider the firearm as a mere tool and only a small part of proper self-defense, but in the gravest extreme it's a necessary one.

For the sake of honesty, however - I will say that the moment anyone wishes me to render myself defenseless I question their intentions, and you know what I see ?

I see my father, one balled fist hidden behind his leg, asking me to put down the knife.
I see the principal of my elementary school, disarming a boy who hours later would become a corpse.
I see the Baltimore City Police Dept tearing my apartment to shreds, hoping to find my weapons and haul them out all public like, cause they KNEW what the result of that would be when the neighborhood fuckheads saw their chance.

I see someone who has "plans", and ones I might not like, who means to deprive me of the means to resist them.
http://jpfo.org/smith/smith-herefords.htm

Quote:
Here in the west, cattlemen may prefer to leave their free-ranging livestock intact, so they can defend themselves from cougars and other predators. But it has long been the practice of others (I looked this up later) to relieve the animals they raise of their horns. This keeps the critters from hurting one another -- costing their owners money -- it makes them much safer for workers to handle, and they clamp better into certain kinds of machinery so that various things can be done to them.

Whether they want it done or not.

All that said, I am in favor removing the NEED for weapons in our society, but denial and assault on those who refuse to participate in denial is not the way to go about it, all the WISHING in the world will not make something so, and again, I point to the War on (some) Drugs as an example of exactly how that works, or rather, fails to work - in an escalating cycle which does more harm than good as well as aiding and abetting the problem.

Wasn't long ago you could buy cocaine and heroin over the counter at the drug store - was there a multimillion dollar drug trade then ?

Do you really want to repeat every single mistake of prohibition and the drug war, all over again, with even more disastrous consequences - because your ideology requires you to BELIEVE it will work, despite the really screaming obvious evidence to the contrary ?

Finally, in the same fashion I pointed out in the Ayn Rand thread - your passionate *need* to destroy any competing thought indicates your concept is unsustainable, all but admits it.

Oh, and just because you might find the irony amusing, less than an hour ago I was discussing the matter of carrying a piece with the owner/management of site three, and argued AGAINST it, because there's almost no place here you could fire a weapon and not endanger the innocent, beyond which there's no freakin need for it cause if being out there, fully geared up and alert in a security capacity isn't going to sort the situation, adding a weapon to it isn't very damn likely to.

Conversely, if I am shlepping off to the grocery store, hell yes imma pack heat - here I have allies, home field advantage, and all manner of advantages I cannot carry with me - but I don't expect or have any desire to NEED the freakin piece any more than the spare tire or fire extinguisher, and yet, we have those, don't we ?

Of course, I don't believe I'll convince you, I just want you to understand my argument, and realize just how different it is from that of a certain loudmouthed pissant who will no doubt demean it with his hateful two cents soon enough.
(We need an icon for rolling eyes, we do.)

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Thursday, April 21, 2011 12:21 PM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht

I tend to agree with Frem on this one. It is really bad how our society makes self defense all manner of difficult. And if we banned guns then all the bad guys would still get them but the good guys, the ones who try to get by and do their best, will be without. I know that someone from Great Britain or Aus will probably show up at some point and say something about how their country doesn't allow guns, but it just isn't going to change my mind for me in the US.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Thursday, April 21, 2011 1:12 PM

KWICKO

Quote:
Originally posted by Hardware:

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Whitman

Austin doesn't have a great history with allowing guns on campus.

But as was pointed out by Richard Linklater in his first film, "Slacker", "Charles Whitman put this town on the map, man!"

Yes, and I noticed that the police stopped him by throwing candy canes at him.

Argument destroyed.

That analogy might make sense if Whitman were throwing candy canes at bystanders.

Argument not really destroyed at all.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

YOUR OPTIONS

SHARE THREAD

NEW POSTS TODAY

USER	POST DATE

USER

POST DATE