Laptop rental company spied on naked customers, raided homes by piratenews

REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Laptop rental company spied on naked customers, raided homes

POSTED BY: PIRATENEWS
UPDATED: Wednesday, May 11, 2011 17:52
SHORT URL:
VIEWED: 3081
PAGE 1 of 1

Thursday, May 5, 2011 7:34 AM

John Lee, conspiracy therapist at Hollywood award-winner History Channel-mocked SNL-spoofed PirateNew.org wooHOO!!!!!!

Since the laptop was already paid for, the "repo" was a pretext to see the naked hottie in the flesh...

Quote:
In the lawsuit, Brian and Crystal Byrd claim that, without their knowledge, a computer rented from Aaron's was equipped with software capable of intercepting electronic messages, taking webcam pictures and tracking keystrokes.

The Byrds said they only learned about the spyware when the store manager, incorrectly believing that the couple was in default on their agreement, stopped by their house in December 2010 with a picture of Brian Byrd taken remotely with the computer's webcam.

"It's really, really outrageous behavior," said Paul Ohm, an assistant professor at the University of Colorado Law School. "To me, this seems to cross all sorts of ethics lines and lines of custom."

Ohm, who said he previously worked for the U.S. Department of Justice's Computer Crime and Intellectual Property Section, said, the facts cited in the suit are "the kind of facts that might interest the FBI." An FBI spokesman for the Denver office (which covers Colorado and Wyoming) said he was not aware of the case.

Ohm said cases involving the Federal Wiretap Act can turn on fine details, such as the number of keystrokes recorded or whether the device was connected to the Internet. From what he knows of the Byrds' suit, he said it sounds like the activities, if proven true, were probably illegal and maybe even a felony.

In addition to naming Aaron's, the Byrds' lawsuit lists the Billings, Mont.-based Aspen Way Enterprises, the Aaron's franchisee that leased the laptop, and DesignerWare, LLC, the Pennsylvania-based company behind the surveillance software PC Rental Agent.

Lawsuit: Aaron’s Rental Co. Laptops Can Track Users’ Keystrokes and Screenshots, Take Webcam Photos
http://abcnews.go.com/Technology/laptop-spying-rental-company-sued-all
eged-webcam-spying/story?id=13528292
http://www.abajournal.com/news/article/couple_sues_national_furniture_
rental_co._says_it_spied_on_them/
http://money.msn.com/business-news/article.aspx?feed=PR&Date=20110503&
ID=13534142

PCRental Agent® is software that you can install on all your rental computers that can be remotely managed from our website and allows you to lockdown a customer’s computer.
http://www.rtoonline.com/epages/linkdetailpop.asp?link_id=885

No Criminal Charges in Case Over School District’s Alleged Webcam Spying on Students
http://www.abajournal.com/news/article/no_criminal_charges_in_case_ove
r_school_districts_alleged_webcam_spying_on_/

2 Teens Get $185K, Lawyer Gets $425K in School Webcam Spy Case
http://www.abajournal.com/news/article/2_teens_get_185000_lawyer_gets_
425k_in_school_webcam_spy_case/

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Thursday, May 5, 2011 11:37 AM

Beir bua agus beannacht

Oh dear.

Why would someone rent a laptop?

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Thursday, May 5, 2011 8:45 PM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Hello,

Because they can't afford one?

--Anthony

_______________________________________________

“If you are not free to choose wrongly and irresponsibly, you are not free at all”

Jacob Hornberger

“Freedom is not worth having if it does not connote freedom to err. It passes my comprehension how human beings, be they ever so experienced and able, can delight in depriving other human beings of that precious right.”

Mahatma Gandhi

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Friday, May 6, 2011 2:48 AM

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:
Hello,

Because they can't afford one?

--Anthony

Then you probably don't NEED one.

Just sayin'.

" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Friday, May 6, 2011 5:55 AM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Hello,

That's rather unsympathetic to struggling students who do need one, but can't shell out the lump sum needed to buy one while they sling chips in frybaskets at McDonalds.

--Anthony

_______________________________________________

“If you are not free to choose wrongly and irresponsibly, you are not free at all”

Jacob Hornberger

“Freedom is not worth having if it does not connote freedom to err. It passes my comprehension how human beings, be they ever so experienced and able, can delight in depriving other human beings of that precious right.”

Mahatma Gandhi

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Friday, May 6, 2011 8:22 AM

Riona and Rap nailed this one. I just bought a laptop with pretty higg specs for forty bucks from an army surplus store. No one *needs* a fifteen hundred dollar laptop, its a pure luxury item. If you cant afford forty bucks, not only can yiu not afford to rent, you have more serious probkems to look to.

That's what a ship is, you know - it's not just a keel and a hull and a deck and sails, that's what a ship needs.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Friday, May 6, 2011 3:47 PM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Hello,

Just because you are able to find a laptop that meets your needs for forty bucks at a surplus store, doesn't mean that everyone can.

I daresay I detect a highly limited imagination amongst the critics here. I am glad you live the lives you do, far from any needs that outstrip the reach of fortune and funds.

--Anthony

_______________________________________________

“If you are not free to choose wrongly and irresponsibly, you are not free at all”

Jacob Hornberger

“Freedom is not worth having if it does not connote freedom to err. It passes my comprehension how human beings, be they ever so experienced and able, can delight in depriving other human beings of that precious right.”

Mahatma Gandhi

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Friday, May 6, 2011 4:14 PM

America loves a winner!

Maybe they should organize a bake sale?

For those who don't recall / never heard the story...

Dan was a caller to the Rush Limbaugh show ( early 90's, I believe )

Dan mentioned he didn't have the $ for The Limbaugh Letter, a news letter which Limbaugh offered, for an annual fee), and would it be possible for Mr.Limbaugh to GIVE Dan a year's subscription for free.

On occasion, Rush had indeed given out 'freebies' to callers, but didn't do so to EVERY caller, for obvious reasons. Instead, he suggested that Dan raise the money himself, if he truly wanted said news letter.

This was about the time when there was talk of a govt shut down. President Clinton had received some $ from some grade school class, money they had raised from a bake sale. They sent that $ in hopes of helping the govt pay for services, and to keep park open, etc... An unbelievably naive offering, but instead of thanking the children and sending the $ back, Clinton KEPT the money, and encouraged more kids to do the same ! A truly futile and silly thing for the President to teach the youth of America.

So, it was in this light, that 'Dan's Bake Sale' took place.

" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Friday, May 6, 2011 4:51 PM

Anthony,

Theres just a hint of pretension in that tone.

First a word about the story, and then back to your point: if you address the story, itself, everyone would agree. We migt feel thwt there is a darwinian element to people who use a rentacenter, or do things on a rented computer, which is like people who send in their hard drive for repair with all their personal information on it, filled out credit card data in an online store they'd never heard of, send all their frieds e-cards to their normal emails and then downloaded their free software now because they were the one millionth visitor and sent their bank account number to a nigerian prince.

This person should, frankly, avoid any truly free society on their own. They will buy the snake oil, drink the koolaid, (sic) and mortgage the house to bet it all on 20 black.

I can't save them from their fate and neither can anyone here.

Now to your point: people's decisions are driven by their economic means and opportunity? (right? Correct me if I've misunderstood your position.)

You know already that I am poor. I was born poor, grew up poor, and stsrted work as a child laborer, making 25 cents an hour. I went to school through the fifth grade. I have never had an income above the poverty line, and I have never accepted welfare, but never passed judgment on those who do.

My opportunities are the same as anyones. The army surplus store was online, it took no special skills to find it, I simply looked.

The art of living within your means is simple: it starts with identifying your means. Once you have done that, identify your needs. Separate your wants from your needs. You may need to watch videos for some reasln. You may want to have 1080P, but you don't need it. You need a car, you don't need a new Prius, etc. The more realistic you can be with your needs, the more likely you are to fulfill them. You then apply logic. You find the cheapest you can possibly get the most basic thing that you can get and then the most you can pay for it buying retail, (renting it is definitely more expensive, i know someone who paid $4000 for a used sofa on a rent to own plan.) then, take that high and low, and keep them in mind when looking at what real people have paid in hte past or are paying now at any of a number of online markets such as ebay. Then, prepare yourself to pay "fair market price." this will be somewhere in the middle. The cheapest is usually a scam, full retail is also a scam. Then, dont buy it before you have the means, get the means first, and delay your plans until after you have the means.

I might just be the most fiscally conservative person ive ever met, but you know how you get that way? By being poor. I completely fail to believe that someone who puts themselves into a bad situation financially does so by being poor. Many of the most fiscally conservative people i know are poor, by which i mean, they have low incomes and no assets. Its the portion of the middle class who have no common sense who are most likely to end up in debt or with unsustainable liability and end up in this sort of situation.

I cant deny that part of my sympathy with the far right is that i would have a lot more respect for a govt. That runs its checkbook like Ron Paul than a party boy on a bender.

What you pay for your basic necessities is a matter of choice and common sense. No one rents out of economic necessity, no one borrows out of economic necessity, they do it out of choice, and short term thinking. They're the working class mirror image of the "next quarter" CEO style of thinking. Nevermind that this educational choice is going to cost quarter million when all the interest is paid, that'll be some other time, not this quarter.

Have you missed the number of times I've posted "Let them eat cake" and the greater number of times that I've pointed out that I am fully aware that I am part of the "them" to whom I am referring?

I utterly reject the notion than bad economic judgment is a side effect of being poor. It contradicts a lifetime of experience. Not just my own, but everyone I have known. If you're actually poor, and you make bad judgments, you get schooled very quickly. The middle class can do it repeatly and never learn, and get repeatedly bruned to the point where they are living at a lower standard of living than the poor, despite their higher incomes (I've seen this a lot) and sure, i admit the rich have a clear advantage: they can make bad judgments forever, and never learn, because they never feel the consequences and it never affects they standard of living.

That's what a ship is, you know - it's not just a keel and a hull and a deck and sails, that's what a ship needs.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Friday, May 6, 2011 4:53 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by RionaEire:
Oh dear.

Why would someone rent a laptop?

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

Sorry Riona, i incorrectly identified you as Byte. I'll go back and edit.

That's what a ship is, you know - it's not just a keel and a hull and a deck and sails, that's what a ship needs.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Friday, May 6, 2011 5:01 PM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Hello,

Thank you for your detailed response.

If you have 40 dollars, and need a laptop, I think you'd obviously prefer to buy one if one was available at that price.

If you can't buy one, and you need one, then you might rent one if that is the choice available to you.

Presumably, not everyone can get a laptop that meets their needs for 40 dollars.

If renting the laptop for 40 dollars helps them to complete their education and get a job they like, then I fail to see why we should look down our nose at these people or shake our heads at their fiscal responsibility.

I posit that your impoverished experience is your own, and that you might imagine people with different needs, skillsets, opportunities, and means for resolution than yourself. Or, barring this expansion of your imaginative prowess, possibly you could find the will to refrain from admonishing those who have not attained your enlightened viewpoint.

I apologize if the tone offends.

--Anthony

_______________________________________________

“If you are not free to choose wrongly and irresponsibly, you are not free at all”

Jacob Hornberger

“Freedom is not worth having if it does not connote freedom to err. It passes my comprehension how human beings, be they ever so experienced and able, can delight in depriving other human beings of that precious right.”

Mahatma Gandhi

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Friday, May 6, 2011 5:06 PM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
th[a]t there is a darwinian element to people who use a rentacenter

Well, this whole society is darwinian, so thanks for buying into the paradigm. I bestow a darwin award on you.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Saturday, May 7, 2011 4:40 AM

Anthony,

Please check your condecension at the door.

These people do not deserve what they get for their stupidity, but it does not make them smart. Investing in you future? Is that really how you see this? You borrow yourself into liability and debt on the off chance of some future reward?

Most people have access to a computer at their library, including everyone attending a college or vocational training school. What these computers don't allow you to do is porn. That's the topic here. If you want to claim that people have a righht to porn, as a civil liberty, then that's fine, but don't act like that right is a guarantee and no one will have to pay for their toys.

Computers have been around for a long time. There's been only nominal changes to the base specs needed to do any educational or work based computer use in the last decade. A computer from a decade ago has close to no market value. Anyone has access to the market, all they need is a brain.

That's what else is lacking here. I think anyone who has been poor has learned quickly how not to let that fact crush them, if they didnt, they got crushed.

Here's a story from years ago, when computers actually did change, and i was teach computer science in college, which i had no background to do, but i knew computers, and their staff did not, so they hired me. I had one student who had purchased a computer, not on time, but retail. He had paid $1600 for a machine which was maybe five years old, in a time of rapidly changing specs. He could have gotten a machine with modedrn specs for maybe $800, or the same machine for $1-200, but he didnt put any time or effort into researching the idea. Instead, he saved up four welfare checks and bought the overpriced machine from a rather greedy vendor. The vendor's justification was that $1600 was the list price on the machine, five years earlier.

Now, to the matter of rentacenter, one of the most predator institutions ever, of which, clearly, Aaron's is an immitator with if possible a lower moral profile.

I've posted several times here: "lending is a predatory act." i spar with people on all political points of view here on this issue. Extending credit is not doing anyone a favor, other than the lender. If there's a worse deal out there then lending, it's leasing. This is purely predatory behavior.

Could there be a market for a rental computer? Sure. As a stop gap when you're in between computers. It might take you a week to replace your computer. But it's not *that* essential, as your school and work will provide one.

What you're really dealing with here are predators ans their self selecting prey. Leasing is like lending in that there is an implied liability that you are taking on. These peopleare not saving money, they're undoubtedly spending more, they just spent less time and effort. The renter quite likely went after his customers aggressively, and manopulated them for every last penny he could get. These placed are like loan sharks and pawn brokers, and I'm willing to bet that this is not the first thing that these people have rented from Aaron's.

Do I have sympathy for those who do not put the work into finding things to buy to stay within their means? No, I don't. A truly libertarian world is going to be filled with dangers. This goes back to do you let the child burn his hand (i dislike this argument, because it implies that learning consequences are harmful) but the essence i would say is "remove what's deadly," but people must learn because the world is always going to be full of predators. The more free your society, the more predators it will have.

I also use alternative medicine. This is an area filled with predators. You can easily pay hundreds of dollars for colloidal gold dissolved in potassium cyanide, and take this sort of stuff to no effect or even detrimental effect. However, such is freedom. If it were not so, i would not have access to effective medicines at cheap prices. Knowing the difference is up to the consumer.

If what you want is a managed society rather than a free one, then you have to trust others to look after your well being, and I hope you understand based on my own life experience, I'm not about to do that.

What else i find patronizing, not from you, but frlm others on the board over the years, is this idea that society *should* be managed, not for themselves, they would like to remain, generally, in their own self controlled world, but rather for us, the poor, and that they would like to "save us from ourselves."

ETA: this is just re the issue of renters and how they got there, and general micro-economics, not defense by any means of Aaron's, who is not only a credit predator but has broken laws regarding privacy. However, its also important to recognize that both of these behaviors are patterns set by the actions of our govt.

ETA2: i get your snark at rand and really agree, but i hope you get my point about the liberal "white man's burden" attitude towards the poor, where i see us as kipling's indians, and the intellectual elites as putting themselves in the role of the british empire.

ETA3: I prefer Rap's "let them eat cake" world and often post the same, my only real bone to pick with it would be the rather salient point that Mike made a while back: to ask the people to collectively fund the wars of empire is somewhere between socialist and imperialist. If you apply the above logic that a free society is never free of its predatory elements, then you can see terrorists as part of that, and we would prefer to live with that threat, and apply our own wits, then to be forced into a scheme of managed protection by those in power.

That's what a ship is, you know - it's not just a keel and a hull and a deck and sails, that's what a ship needs.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Saturday, May 7, 2011 5:17 AM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Hello,

I assure you that condescension is not a trait of my invention. I've found that any git who claims to know (and know a lot) may find themselves apt to say of anyone on any day what THEY should know and they should do: (The things I understand to be true.)

And if their lives should deviate from this path? They'll not have my wrath, but I hesitate to extend any care for these twits who fail to exercise their wits. They ought to pare down as I have in my life, to learn my lessons and dodge my strife. For my angle on everything is plainly fact, absent though it is of tact, such that anyone who does a thing that I'd not do is proverbially full of poo.

But fret not, for they will learn- life has its lessons and wisdom to earn. I rest assured that given time, they'll learn to use and spend their dime just as I might in their place. Then there'll be a smile on their face- the byproduct of not being duped by robbers who'd throw them for a loop. My truth will set them free, you see, and their lives will prove to be just as right as my life for me.

Oh, and yeah, they're violated, but really they were already raided. There's no debate, just your awful tone. When we consider that each man stands alone, they deserve not one whit of pity. Life is hard in the big city and the sooner they learn, the less they'll burn. Survival favors the fit, look it up, it has been writ!

So, making choices of less worth than mine? Just so they can bitch and whine? Get with the program, get with the time, and to my truth you must align.

Cheers,

--Anthony

_______________________________________________

“If you are not free to choose wrongly and irresponsibly, you are not free at all”

Jacob Hornberger

“Freedom is not worth having if it does not connote freedom to err. It passes my comprehension how human beings, be they ever so experienced and able, can delight in depriving other human beings of that precious right.”

Mahatma Gandhi

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Saturday, May 7, 2011 5:58 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

DT-

Quote:
If what you want is a managed society rather than a free one, then you have to trust others to look after your well being, and I hope you understand based on my own life experience, I'm not about to do that.

I want a society that is expected to be free. While I know that freedoms must be guarded, we set our societal standards exceedingly low if we don't have any sort of outrage over intrusions, but just shrug our shoulders and blame the victim.

You can't maintain societal freedoms by individual paranoia. Isn't that why the FF fathers joined the colonies together in the first place? Because people united are stronger than people divided?

Over the years, I've come to realize "individualism" is fundamentally the most destructive fallacy in libertarianism and will guarantee that everyone gets screwed over by TPTB. I find very little of value in your philosophy.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Saturday, May 7, 2011 8:26 AM

John Lee, conspiracy therapist at Hollywood award-winner History Channel-mocked SNL-spoofed PirateNew.org wooHOO!!!!!!

Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:

Because they can't afford one?

They said they paid $900 for a $400 laptop...

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Saturday, May 7, 2011 12:56 PM

This is part of the price of Freedom, guys. If your want to be protected from predators, I welcome you to Nuthanger Farm.

Anthony,

Not sure what to make of that, but at least you rhyme. And endless string of insults and insinuations do not an argument win, but merely discredit the speaker.

Sig,

Read back. I said aside from the issue of the crime committed. I think we would agree that Randian individualism is a detriment, but to say that individualism is, and that we would be better off as a collective is radically contrary to either American or Firefly ideals. IMHO. You're welcome to your world view, just don't ask me to live in it. Remember that we the poor did not ask for your help, and every election, we continue to not ask for it.

As for ther unions, I'm willing to go more Firefly than American and say that the union was a bad idea. It has created an empire of death, and it did so in short order. Individuals are not strong, but groups of individuals competing with one another are much stronger than a state society,

John,

Thanks for the numbers. Caveat Emptor.

That's what a ship is, you know - it's not just a keel and a hull and a deck and sails, that's what a ship needs.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Saturday, May 7, 2011 1:19 PM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

"Not sure what to make of that, but at least you rhyme. And endless string of insults and insinuations do not an argument win, but merely discredit the speaker."

Hello,

Yes, I agree. It certainly discredited you when you made the insulting insinuation that the only reason these people needed a laptop was so that they could access porn.

--Anthony

_______________________________________________

“If you are not free to choose wrongly and irresponsibly, you are not free at all”

Jacob Hornberger

“Freedom is not worth having if it does not connote freedom to err. It passes my comprehension how human beings, be they ever so experienced and able, can delight in depriving other human beings of that precious right.”

Mahatma Gandhi

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Saturday, May 7, 2011 1:57 PM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
This is part of the price of Freedom, guys. If your want to be protected from predators, I welcome you to Nuthanger Farm.

Bull. You pose a false dilemma.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Saturday, May 7, 2011 4:19 PM

Anthony,

Sorry, I misread ther story, i thought they had taken and sent ther pictures. I see Aaron's did it remotely.

Sig,

No, that's reality. You let someone else protect you and determine your options, then this is what you end up with. Check out the history of this country, when it has taken that bent, or any socialist state.

But points for getting the reference.

That's what a ship is, you know - it's not just a keel and a hull and a deck and sails, that's what a ship needs.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Saturday, May 7, 2011 6:49 PM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Hello Dream,

I'm sorry too, if I got a little hot under the collar.

--Anthony

_______________________________________________

“If you are not free to choose wrongly and irresponsibly, you are not free at all”

Jacob Hornberger

“Freedom is not worth having if it does not connote freedom to err. It passes my comprehension how human beings, be they ever so experienced and able, can delight in depriving other human beings of that precious right.”

Mahatma Gandhi

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Saturday, May 7, 2011 7:22 PM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
Sig, No, that's reality. You let someone else protect you and determine your options, then this is what you end up with. Check out the history of this country, when it has taken that bent, or any socialist state. But points for getting the reference.

DT, here's the deal. You keep saying that relying on anything other than the individual creates sheeple. That there are no alternatives beyond caveat emptor, and that anyone who fails to properly negotiate the minefield of intrusions and traps laid out for them by TPTB deserves their fate.

But what if people get together to protect each other?

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Sunday, May 8, 2011 3:12 AM

Sig,

Then we would be relying on e individual.

What the Ayn Randers miss is that in an individualistic society, there is more than one individual. Individuals can help other individuals who ask for help, and they should. Esp. If they are people they know.

No one should be allowed to ask for help for others, provided those others can soeak for themselves and be heard, because the rights of self determination are lost if we allow someone else to determine what's best for them.

The problem with any collective is that it would have leadership. If you're going to have a group, there will be leaders, not because the people want it or need it, but because some people have more power and influence than others.

Once you have a collective with leaders, then the leaders are the ones making the decisions. The ultimate end of any collective society is that the collective ends up in absolute control of decision making, because this is basically how self determination is defined within collectivism, and the leaders end up in absolute control of the collective, because this is the end result of a society based on cooperation rather than competition.

What saves late 20th c. european socialist from this fate is that they were still trapped with a democratic free market, which is an individualist system. Not my favorite one by most measures, but enough to off-set the trend towards centralization that we see in basically all statism.

So, sure, there should be cooperation, but each individual should choose to cooperate, or choose not to take part in activity, and each individual or group of individuals* should also have the ability to block the destructive aspects of the activities of any other individual/group that violates the spirit of law: your right to swing your arms ends where my nose begins.

* a self organizing group of individuals is an individual, because the cooperation is the result of the free will of every participant, whether it be a band of musicians, a church or a corporation.

This is why the 14th Amendment rule on corporate citizenship was justified. IMHO, it's more than justifiable, I think it's a good idea. This puts me at odds with libertarians as well as socialists, but my point is that this rule makes organization possible outside of the will of govt. I think that the claim of absolute authority by the govt, manipulated by those in control of it, was more of a determinant in the civil war than slavery. (even lincoln knew it would have been cheaper to but out the slaves.) but let me return to a more modern and pertinent example.

This forum that you are on is not just a forum full of individuals, it is an expression of the individualist concept. If this were to exist in China, and the govt. Didn't like what it said (consider what we all here say about the govt.) then not only could it delete posts, remove users, and mod boards, it could shut down the entire site and even execute the site's owner as an enemy of the state, and the Chinese govt. Has done so, (not to Haken

) and the soviet govt. Would have likely done the same if it had survived into the internet age.

That's what a ship is, you know - it's not just a keel and a hull and a deck and sails, that's what a ship needs.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Sunday, May 8, 2011 5:52 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

I got this far into your post and stopped reading:

Quote:
Esp. If they are people they know.

Then you are limiting the scope of help severely, while the scope of of those who will harm you is much larger. That is doomed to fail. Sorry, but that's the truth. David and Goliath doesn't work 99.999999% of the time. In modern times, when David DOES win, it's with the help of lots of unknown people- either institutionally (lawyers and the law) or popularly (Twitter).

I gather from your various posts you have had a turbulent past, and as a result have trust issues. While I feel sorry for your treatment, your response is not viable in the larger sphere.

I do enjoy your insights, though, and would love to continue this discussion but real life presses on. Hopefully next weekend.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Sunday, May 8, 2011 6:47 AM

Sig

If you appreciate my insights, then go back and read the rest of my post. I thought it was one of the clearest statements of my position that I've made.

ETA: if you help people that you do not know that did not ask for your help, then you are acting on your idea of helping them, not theirs. Ergo, you think you're doing the right thing, but in the name of helping, you have picked up the white man's burden and become the imperialist.

It's just not our place to make that call for others. I recall after we overthrew Saddam Hussein, an interview with an Iraqi Imam. He said "the americans came tk us and to.d us they were going to bring us freedom, democracy and human rights. So far all they've brought us is drugs, prostitution and AIDS."

A more recent example, president Obama, in his 9min. More telling speech as to why he attacked Libya, one of the reasons he gave was "to bring policy and economic changes that the Libyan people deserve." Deserve? Who decides that? He didn't say economic/policy changes that the Libyan people *want*, "ask for", "demand."

When we make those choices for others, we become imperialists. It doesnt matter whether we are democrats, republicans; socialists or capitalists.

All people are created equal, and with equal rights, and this can only be so if they have an equal right to determine their own destiny. If someone else is making those choices for them, they have taken that away from them, and created a class system whereby what the "helped" have is determined by what the "helpers" "give." This automatically places the helper abive the helped, and puts the decision making in the hands of the helper. This is a system open to perhaps the most widespread abuse of any human system ever created.

For an absolutely excellent analysis of this, I recommend again Jean Bertrand Aristide's book "Eyes of the Heart." He takes a completely Hatian's eye view of Haiti. It's a quick read and really worth a look.

Read this post and the last one if you want to get an idea of where this point of view is coming from.

That's what a ship is, you know - it's not just a keel and a hull and a deck and sails, that's what a ship needs.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Sunday, May 8, 2011 5:25 PM

Beir bua agus beannacht

I just didn't know that you _could rent laptops, I'd never heard of that.

DT: You must have gotten further in school than 5th grade, how did you get away with that? Plus I know that you've mentioned having at least some college under your belt.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Monday, May 9, 2011 3:13 AM

Yes, but not in shcool. I took the SATs, and took college classes and eventually had enough credits for a degree. I worked two jobs at the time. I was fortunate in one regard: college was much cheaper then: $675 a semester. actually only had to pay for credits, $55 each which i was only able to do so sometimes. Eventually i had 160 credits though, and when you do, they given you a degree.

The liberal agenda was overwhelming, and they made a socialist of me temporarily, later i figured out that they had only told me half of many stories, and had triedto deliberately program me to not read opposing arguments (as witness, no offense to Sig, but her response above: that's a classic "educated" response. "i stopped reading when." nothing particular to it, we all do it to some extent, but we are trained to do it. Ain't natural. That's why I don't stop rewding PN when he sayd "Jew." The more information you learn, the better.)

But then internet came along and I learned that most of what I learned in college was outdated. I advise strongly against college. It's now incredibly expense, you pick up debt, bias, ignorance and bad habits, and the information they are teaching is inaccurate and presented in an incredibly inefficient manner (mostly a man reading at you as if he were a book, only at human 160 wpm, and about 2/3 of everything they say some other professor or book you've already been given has already told yiu, so count that more like 50 wpm, and the classes are 45 x 50 min x 2 semesters x usually abiut 4 classes at a time, each class is about 100,000 words,) so about a book, so classes are like reading eight books a year, largely loaded with biased outdated inaccurate inefficient information. Plus the books they give you but that's largely redundant information of what was taught in class. By the numbers, you could learn the content of a course in a day, but realistically it would take you a week, but not the month and a half average that college asks for.
That's what a ship is, you know - it's not just a keel and a hull and a deck and sails, that's what a ship needs.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Monday, May 9, 2011 3:06 PM

Beir bua agus beannacht

How did you get away with not going to school? Didn't your parents have you go? Didn't the government come down on them for not sending you? Were you homeschooled and you aren't counting that as "school"?

I disagree about college, I mean I agree that you don't need all that stuff they teach you and some of it isn't valid sometimes, but now adays its hard to get a job without that piece of paper that says you graduated.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Tuesday, May 10, 2011 5:01 PM

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)

A person might rent a laptop if they have bad credit and a small paycheck, and find themselves in need of a laptop to better their chances at having a LARGER paycheck.

Some of the argument here (from the right, it seems) seems to come down to "if you can't buy it, you can't have it". So naturally you all paid cashy money for your McMansions, I'm sure. And your cars. You have NO debt whatsoever, right?

Rentacenters are a rip-off, pure and simple. But some people find themselves in hard times and have to make a hard decision to do something that isn't economically beneficial to them in the long term, in order to survive the short term.

If you want to regulate such businesses, be my guest. But it almost sounds as if you want to outlaw them.

And there seems to be a bit of an attitude showing here as well. A bit of "if you're renting it, they can do whatever they want". Would you apply that to homes and apartments? If you lease, can the owner install cameras in your bedrooms and bathrooms to keep an eye on you and make sure you aren't breaking any laws on their property?

If you lease a car, should the black box notify the leasing company if you exceed the speed limit, or if you don't signal a turn? Should it notify your insurance company of such instances?

The salient point of the thread was the idea that people are watching you who have no right or interest in doing so, and they're doing so for nefarious purposes. And then it became a battle over whether poor people were supposed to be allowed to have technology in the first place.

It amazes me how much outright hatred is shown to the poor around here. It really does.

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Tuesday, May 10, 2011 5:04 PM

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)

Quote:
The liberal agenda was overwhelming, and they made a socialist of me temporarily, later i figured out that they had only told me half of many stories, and had triedto deliberately program me to not read opposing arguments (as witness, no offense to Sig, but her response above: that's a classic "educated" response. "i stopped reading when." nothing particular to it, we all do it to some extent, but we are trained to do it. Ain't natural. That's why I don't stop rewding PN when he sayd "Jew." The more information you learn, the better.)

But I can remember specific instances where you've told me these exact words: "Too long; didn't read."

So were you lying then, or are you lying now? ;)

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Tuesday, May 10, 2011 5:15 PM

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)

By the way, DT, there *are* people for whom leasing is a better option. If you're a person who constantly has a car payment, who trades in a car before it's paid off, and never has one paid off and fully owned, then leasing a car probably IS a better option for such a person. Why? Because they have limited exposure, they're paying not for the full value, but rather towards the future depreciation of said vehicle (they're paying towards what it will be worth when it's time to walk away), and they're usually paying about half of what they'd be paying if they took on the full note.

This is who leasing is NOT for: Me. I tend to buy used cars that have already depreciated close to 90%, and I tend to drive them for a LONG time.

But it isn't always "evil" to lease a thing.

Saying that anyone who would rent a computer, or use rent-to-own services for such a thing, is "stupid", is saying anyone who would have a mortgage or a car loan is "stupid" as well. After all, they are paying far more than the thing itself is worth, or is likely ever going to be worth.

So shall we go ahead and install our cameras in their bedrooms, since they're stupid anyway, and ostensibly just here for our entertainment?

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Tuesday, May 10, 2011 5:26 PM

DT's taoists beliefs tell him to be the valley, not the mountain. To try to be the place that ideas flow to, rather then flow from.

He may dismiss socialist arguments, but one of the reasons I continue talking to him is that I believe he TRIES to listen to arguments and participate in arguments for as long as he feels he can. He does get hung up on things, he does end up teaching sometimes even when he says that isn't his aim, and he does get frustrated, but so do we all.

And unfortunately, when you put him and Niki together the friction results in conflagration. Both of them say things to each other they might not say to other people. I try not to hold that kind of behaviour against people, it is not necessarily an indication of who they are as a person.

...As for the thread, I think that people might buy a service, and maybe that service is self-defeating for their economic need. But then it is a person's right to make mistakes, and an honest business' agenda to provide good and non-invasive customer service. Should a service fail to do so, they should go out of business because their customers will have turned against them.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Tuesday, May 10, 2011 6:40 PM

Beir bua agus beannacht

Hi Quicko,
I wasn't ever saying that people _shouldn't be allowed to rent laptops or that if they rent them then they deserve to be spied on. I was just surprised that one _could rent a laptop. And even though I think renting a laptop, or leasing a car for that matter, is weird I would never say that people who do it deserve to be spied on.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, May 11, 2011 12:25 AM

I haven't read all the post yet, but just one quick correction. You can access pornography on a university computer (at least at my University's library). The computers allow access to anything (legal) for research purposes and are set up to delete everything and reload what the machines began their day with at midnight. There were a few porn related papers presented at the undergraduate research symposium at my university 2 years ago.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, May 11, 2011 1:38 AM

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)

Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:

...As for the thread, I think that people might buy a service, and maybe that service is self-defeating for their economic need. But then it is a person's right to make mistakes, and an honest business' agenda to provide good and non-invasive customer service. Should a service fail to do so, they should go out of business because their customers will have turned against them.

Byte:

Yes to the rest of your post, which I truncated for brevity. But I wanted to highlight this part because this is the meat of the matter. And yes to all this. Yes, you CAN rent a laptop computer - you can even "rent to own" if you want, although by the time you "own" it, you've likely paid about five times what it would have cost to buy it new. Places like these thrive on taking advantage of poor people and those with low credit; it's why they exist. Same with "payday" loans.

I find such places despicable, and feel sorry for their chosen clientele, but they have a right to exist and do business, and folks have a right to NOT do business with them. If is was me, I'd go without a computer for a while, save up some money, and buy an "obsolete" model before I'd go the rent-to-own route. But others are less patient. But hey, I paid cash for my last dozen cars, too, and haven't had a balance on a credit card for years, unless it was a couple hundred dollars, just so the card company could make a bit of a profit off me (I've had cards canceled on me because I didn't carry enough of a balance, and they weren't making anything off me).

As for laptops and spying, I'm not real big on ANY camera that doesn't have a lens cover on it. Don't much trust 'em. I've been using my MacBook before and noticed that the little green LED is lit up next to the camera, which means the camera is ON, and I didn't turn it on - and there's not an "OFF" switch for it, short of turning off the computer. So I keep it covered up with a sticker now. :) Downside is, one of the new technologies shown at the E3 electronics conference last year was a television monitor where the camera is imbedded *IN* the TV screen, so you just know that's coming next - your webcam will be in your monitor's screen, with no way to turn it off or cover it up. :(

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, May 11, 2011 1:40 AM

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)

Quote:
Originally posted by RionaEire:
Hi Quicko,
I wasn't ever saying that people _shouldn't be allowed to rent laptops or that if they rent them then they deserve to be spied on. I was just surprised that one _could rent a laptop. And even though I think renting a laptop, or leasing a car for that matter, is weird I would never say that people who do it deserve to be spied on.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

Sorry if I misread you. It probably wasn't even YOU I was reacting to, just quoted the most recent post in a line of thought. It sounds like we're pretty much in agreement on this.

By the way, did you know that you can even rent WHEELS for your car? There are places here that will rent you the latest cheapo-looking giant chrome wheels and "spinners" on a weekly basis. And they come leave your car up on blocks and repo the wheels if you miss your payments. Seriously. :(

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, May 11, 2011 4:39 PM

America loves a winner!

Renowned U.K. game developer David Braben set his game programming aside for a short while to create an amazingly affordable personal computer that he hopes will prompt an overhaul of computer education programs. The mini PC, called the Raspberry Pi, is no bigger than a standard USB memory stick, and runs a version of Linux, an open-source operating system.

The diminutive device has a single USB input for a keyboard or mouse (or a USB hub to expand those options), HDMI monitor output, 128MB of memory, and an SD card slot for storage. The pint-sized PC is capable of web browsing, word processing, email, and many other standard computer features. None of this would be particularly impressive, if not for the fact that the device costs just $25.

Braben plans to introduce his creation to school systems throughout the U.K. in hopes of overhauling what he sees as a computer education program in need of a refresh. He is currently in the processes of refining the Raspberry Pi prototype in anticipation of getting it manufactured on a larger scale, and projects that the tiny device will be formally introduced within 12 months.

" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, May 11, 2011 4:56 PM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

SO if "renting" a laptop doesn't make sense, what about "renting" your software? That's exactly the position you're in when you "buy" a Microsoft or Apple product (real your Eula) and exactly where you WILL be when everything is "in the cloud". Nonetheless, the same peeps who are excoriating this guy for renting a laptop will quite likely buy from MS or Apple, and depend on "the cloud" for everything.

All your access are belong to us.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, May 11, 2011 5:40 PM

Mike,

Neither borrower nor lender be. So, yes, we paid cash for everything. I happen to not have a lot of cash. Never did. Yes, I pay cash for everything. Never borrow money, never sign contracts. I don't have a cell phone because I can't get one without a contract, that's a religious barrier. I guess I'm the religious right.

What makes you think the mcmansion subprime holders were republicans? The only ones I knew personally were staunch democrats. I don't know if there's a statistical breakdown on this, and I have no idea what the results would be, but I would find it antithetical to conservative beliefs to take out a subprime mortgage, or, hey, a mortgage. Now, sure, I find the republican party antithetical to conservative beliefs, that's why I can't support them. I support Ron Paul, and he hates the idea of mortgages. He said "let the housing market collapse, then maybe people would be able to afford mortgages."

Okay. I just did an ebay search. Laptops going off every minute, no, every second. One every second. Prices are overwhelmingly in the mid 100s, so 131, 170, 162, 154, etc. These are all newish machines, some dual core laptops, some netbooks. A few are going higher, new ones, 300ish, some as is and older ones that are still webworthy XP machines for 40 bucks.

Minimum wage $7x40hr=$280. Anyone's paycheck could buy a computer easy.

Think about that. It's an insane world in which one week paycheck of a mcdonald's worker can buy a state of the art machine. I paid less than that for my Vaio P. Actually, $280 is exactly what I paid for my snow leopard Macbook.

I'm still looking for Aaron's prices...

Okay, 100-200. That's per week if you're renting, per month if you're on a rent-to-own 12 month lease. ie. contract. That means you just paid $1200 for it. These are the exact same machines I just saw going off on ebay.

Also, they may not have a case: Most computers come with ID software that takes a snapshot of you when you log in, as verification. This is undoubtedly to help cops tag you to a computer if you hack, and also if you stole it. I wouldn't be surprised if windows caches every log on. So, the image of him was probably with the video ID logon, which you can turn off. They could have gotten that image off the laptop, rather than remotely.

Still, it's possible that they installed spyware, because Aaron's is evil and slimy. But it's hard to prove that if you don't have the laptop. Their moronic actions don't actually betray this behavior in the way that the moron at my old alma mater did in Lower Marion, Philly.

So, I rule natural selection.

Mike, re: cars, you're never better off in a lease, because it's a contract. you don't know what will happen tomorrow. Leasing is evil. This is what religion is for, so you can tell the difference between good and evil concepts which Taoism doesn't dwell on, so I have some lingering christianity there. The one taking out the lease isn't evil, they're dumb. The lease giver is evil. It's a predatory act. Lending is a predatory act.

Get a used car. I think it's dumb to take out a car loan.

And I never said anything to justify Aaron's. Aaron's is evil, pure and simple. The couple is stupid. Maybe they have learned something now and will be less stupid in the future.

Evil feeds off stupid, that's why it puts so much effort into trying to keep people stupid, or to convince you that they are getting stupider.

Byte,

Socialism isn't a hidden truth, it's a dismissed falsehood. It's like creationims. A lot, actually: It's intelligent design applied to politics. I'll ID too, and have, right here. This isn't because I want to promote my views, it's because I want to have an intelligent conversation, and that's impossible when people are wasting time arguing about where the president was born.

Anyway, you are correct, disseminating information is antithetical to my religion. It not only wastes my time and theirs, but it would make me a moron. Or more precisely "Smart" in the smart/moron/incompetent paradigm someone posted. Taoism seeks eternal incompetence. I suspect the paradigm creator of being a taoist.

As for Aaron's, the web probably needs a new site to deal with reviews. A friend of mine was involved in a startup on this theme which failed because it could not get the attention of perspective customers and past customers with positive and negative experiences. The most successful such site I know is Askapatient.com which is great for what it does, which is Rx drugs.

Sig,

;)

Never pay for cloud, it's available free all over. Also, never keep your files there, back up locally. And never put anything sensitive on the cloud unless you build it yourself. It's not rocket science. I don't need someone else to set up a cloud system for me, and while not every internet user could do, every corporation could.

As for month to month services, there are a lot, but one month at a time. I don't want a liability that is going to be applied in december, because I don't know what december will bring.

If you are doing anything financially, you have to calculate the maximum implied liability of the deal. Once you do that, you must prepare yourself to pay that full amount upfront. If you cannot do that, you cannot make the deal. If you do it anyway, you're not a good Christian

All your buck are belong to us

That's what a ship is, you know - it's not just a keel and a hull and a deck and sails, that's what a ship needs.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, May 11, 2011 5:52 PM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Hello,

I can't imagine you'd ever want to be spoken to the way you speak of, and to, others. That you should ever dare to be offended when you spray the wide world with insults both direct and implied is beyond me.

I honestly don't think I'm able to read anything you write, Dream, without becoming upset. I have a bad habit of empathizing with the targets of your universally superior attitude.

Perhaps I, too, should skip the green.

--Anthony

_______________________________________________

“If you are not free to choose wrongly and irresponsibly, you are not free at all”

Jacob Hornberger

“Freedom is not worth having if it does not connote freedom to err. It passes my comprehension how human beings, be they ever so experienced and able, can delight in depriving other human beings of that precious right.”

Mahatma Gandhi

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

YOUR OPTIONS

SHARE THREAD

NEW POSTS TODAY

USER

POST DATE

OTHER TOPICS

DISCUSSIONS

An American education: Classrooms reshaped by record migrant arrivals
Thu, December 12, 2024 08:17 - 4 posts

CNN, The Home of FAKE NEWS
Thu, December 12, 2024 08:16 - 3 posts

The Hill: Democrats and the lemmings of the left
Thu, December 12, 2024 08:11 - 13 posts

Elections; 2024
Thu, December 12, 2024 01:38 - 4931 posts

COUP...TURKEY
Wed, December 11, 2024 21:38 - 40 posts

Dana Loesch Explains Why Generation X Put Trump In The White House
Wed, December 11, 2024 21:21 - 7 posts

Alien Spaceship? Probably Not: CIA Admits it’s Behind (Most) UFO Sightings
Wed, December 11, 2024 21:18 - 27 posts

IRAN: Kamala Harris and Biden's war?
Wed, December 11, 2024 19:34 - 18 posts

Countdown Clock Until Vladimir Putins' Rule Ends
Wed, December 11, 2024 19:32 - 158 posts

A.I Artificial Intelligence AI
Wed, December 11, 2024 19:04 - 251 posts

Who hates Israel?
Wed, December 11, 2024 19:02 - 77 posts

In the garden, and RAIN!!! (2)
Wed, December 11, 2024 17:59 - 4839 posts

VIEW MORE TOPICS

FFF.NET SOCIAL