Libya- the apparently pointless war. Geezer: History in the making. by SignyM

REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Libya- the apparently pointless war. Geezer: History in the making.

POSTED BY: SIGNYM
UPDATED: Monday, September 18, 2023 06:44
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Monday, June 13, 2011 6:33 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Who remembers the original NATO goal in Libya?

Class?

Anyone?

Yes, Johnny?

"No fly zones", you say?

Good answer.

Can anyone tell me what NATO is doing now?

Class? Yes, Jennie?

"Bombing Tripoli", you say?

Indeed.

And when did NATO slide from one tactic to another? Where was it in the press?

Anyone?

---------------

Let's see. Syria has killed at least 1000 protesters. They disappeared and tortured many, including a 13-year-old boy who was burned, castrated, kneecapped and (mercifully, finally) shot.
www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1392684/Hamza-Ali-al-Khateeb-child-ma
rtyr-tortured-death-Syrias-sadistic-regime.html

Bahrain killed peaceful protesters with the Saudi's help, and then pulled doctors and nurses out of hospital and jailed and beat them for treating the wounded.

Yemen. Oh, boy, our buddy. In the guise of "fighting al Qaida", Saleh managed to hang onto his own repressive regime.
www.ethiopianreview.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=27314

---------------

The Middle East is FILLED with tyrants. So, what is so special about Libya that it becomes the ONE target that we choose to bomb?

Well, for one thing, many of those tyrants are our buddies. The former head of Tunisia, Ben Ali. The former head of Egypt, Mubarek. The (almost) former head of Yemen, Saleh. The king of Saudi Arabia. The head of Bahrain, Al Khalifa. They may be tyrants, but by g-d, they were/are our tyrants.

But still, outside of our own circle of monarchs and despots, we could go all hobnail boots on other nations that form a greater strategic threat- Syria, for example.

So, why Libya?

Well, to be quite crass about it, there's the... ahem... oil. But worse, there's the currency situation. Under the Bretton Woods agreement, the US dollar became the official exchange currency for oil. China wants to trade with Venezuela? Needs to pay in USD. France wants to buy oil from Indonesia? Needs to pay in USD. So all nations in the world need to keep a USD reserve for oil payments, and all oil-producing nations wind up with USD.

And thus, the USA and the Fed have a free pass to print all the money they want and STILL have it be worth something, because everybody has to have those dollars so they can buy oil.

Libya, OTOH, does not have debt with the IMF or World Bank. It DOES have tons (literally, about 144 tons) of gold in its vaults, and was openly talking about setting up a new currency - the gold dinar- for Mideast oil purchases.

What would that do the the worth of the USD?

Something to think about.

Curiously, the LAST oil-producing nation which tried that was IRAQ... another tyranny which became the unwitting target of invasion and destruction.

Quote:
On November 6th of 2000 Iraq became the first country to receive all of its oil export payments in euros instead of American dollars. This switch was estimated to cost Iraq $270 million dollars, but Iraq had since actually come out on top due to the rise in the value of the euro, which was actually probably influenced by Iraq’s decision to use the euro as its foreign exchange currency. At the time of the switch Iraq was selling over $60 million in crude oil a day so its easy to see that the change to the use of the euro could have a positive effect on the value of the euro.

But, this will not be the last attempt to displace the USD. / www.chinasecurity.us/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=56&I
temid=8 At some point the USD is going to have to float on its own worth, and not on the backs of our soldiers.

If you want to know more, please watch this:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-5267640865741878159#
------------

BTW- Egypt signed a loan agreement with the IMF. They will find they have just traded a tyranny of politicians for a tyranny of bankers.

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Monday, June 13, 2011 6:51 AM

BYTEMITE

Hmm, I like your theory. It fits in to some degree with the theory that DT posited that our recent wars were WTO wars out to establish a Middle East Free Trade Agreement, only he thought they'd try to make the Shekel the regional currency.

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Monday, June 13, 2011 7:09 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

To bankers, what is the value of OIL compared to the value of the billions and trillions of dollars in banks, foreign and domestic?

Phhft. A mere trifle.

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Monday, June 13, 2011 7:14 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Bahrain doctors go on trial, alleging torture to extract confessions

Quote:
Eleven male doctors appeared in court Monday, their heads shaven, alongside at least five female doctors. They appeared stressed and anxious.

One of the doctors tried to tell the judge that his confession had been extracted under torture, but the judge told him to stop and that he would be able to give evidence later in the trial.

www.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/meast/06/13/bahrain.unrest/index.html

--------------
But, by g-d, they're OUR tyrants!

Please, don't come back and say you didn't know or you weren't told.

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Monday, June 13, 2011 8:50 AM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

"And when did NATO slide from one tactic to another? Where was it in the press?"

Well, it was pretty obvious to me from the start that NATO was partisan and in the fight to get rid of Gaddafi since it was extending the protection of 'humanitarian bombing' only to the rebels. Plus it is completely illogical to protect both sides in a war well enough so that one side can never quite defeat the other - unless you want to bleed both sides, like we did with the Iran/ Iraq War. After all, the essence of war is that one side crushes the other in every way.

I can see the overall motivation, which is to keep the global dominance of the US dollar going - to keep the world as our currency colony. And rather than maybe spending that tax money at home for education, technology and infrastructure to make the US actually more competitive (which would be one rational approach), the US would rather spend it abroad on wars. B/c investment in the US creates a more productive but also more expensive labor market, whereas investment in colonial wars creates a cheaper international labor market and higher short-term profit.

What I don't get is how that US-benefiting-motivation translates into NATO action. Surely Europe with its EU currency stands to gain from the erosion of the USD.

I'm missing something here regarding Libya specifically.

Otherwise, yes, overall the US pretty obviously protects its brutal dictators.

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Monday, June 13, 2011 9:33 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Oh, apparently there was something of a tiff between France/ Germany on the one side a USA/ Britain on the other. It looks like the USA won. Needs some thought, tho. The position of Managing Director of the IMF is in play. Perhaps the USA said "We'll give you the IMF."

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Monday, June 13, 2011 9:50 AM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

Oh - I forgot to thank you for pointing out the currency motivation for Iraq and Libya. Now that you pointed it out it makes perfect sense.

BTW - wouldn't you like to be a fly on the wall where that horse-trading takes place? In the Obama administration where the schemes are (currently) cooked up, in the interface between the US and Europe where the actual signalling occurs. I sure would.

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Monday, June 13, 2011 10:53 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

It occurred to me that a dinar based on gold would have a negative effect on the euro as well. Not as much as on the USD, tho.

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Monday, June 13, 2011 12:18 PM

FREMDFIRMA

Oh indeed, it's all just plain lunacy, especially since the damn rebels ain't got a clue, much less a plan and half of THEM are shooting at EACH other, so all we're doing it stirring a kettle of shit and complaining about the smell.

And much as Chavez is a wackjob, although he wasn't initially that bad and it's gone to his head...

Consider well how his county PROSPERED the moment he chased out the WTO, IMF and all our exploitive little buddies trying to "help" his country (right into eternal debt-servitude that is!), and then demanded our exploitive corporations *gasp, shock* actually PAY THEIR FUCKIN RENT, or make SOME financial offer in exchange for the resources they were looting, and then chased em out with *military force* when they refused.

There's a *reason* ole Hugo went and blew a chunk of the budget on Migs, Missles and Tanks, cause the ability to give us a bloody nose is a great part of the reason we're attacking Libya instead of Venezuela - and half the other is that NeoFeudalist Crusade bullshit.
Oh, and lets not even talk about how and why we suddenly backed offa North Korea, ehe ?

As you all know, imma staunch supporter of the Second Amendment (well, ALL of em, in fact!) but consider the example here on a global scale, of what happens when you DON'T have sufficient force in hand ?

America happens to you, and we'll bring "Democracy" (also known as lots of fucking bombs) to YOUR country, unless you have the means to defend yourself.

And if you do, we'll just go pick on someone who doesn't.

We need to change our national concept bird from the Eagle... to the Vulture, cause it's what we are, and maybe we should just admit it.

-Frem
I do not serve the Blind God.

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Monday, June 13, 2011 12:55 PM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht

I agree with you about Libya Signe, and the hypocracy of going in there and not doing anything about all the other badguy leaders over there, just because Libya has oil and will "serve our interests". What a rutting mess and those rebels don't have a clue as Frem said, its all futile and wasteful.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

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Monday, June 13, 2011 12:58 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)

But DT assures me that Obama is only waging war on OPEC nations - which strikes me as more than a bit odd, because of our current wars (admitted or not), I find only Libya and Iraq that are members of OPEC.

Here's the list of OPEC member nations: Algeria, Angola, Ecuador, Iran, Iraq, Kuwait, Libya, Nigeria, Qatar, Saudi Arabia, the United Arab Emirates, and Venezuela.

Help me run down that list; are we at war with Kuwait? Saudi Arabia? UAE? Venezuela? Angola? Ecuador? Iran?

And why are we bombing Pakistan, if they're not an OPEC member? How does Obama plan to raise the price of gas by bombing Pakistan? And more to the point, WHY would he want to raise gas prices? So he can be sure to lose in 2012?

We supported ousting tyrants in Egypt, not so much in Syria, not at all in Bahrain, and outright support the tyrant in Yemen. None of them are OPEC members, are they? And where are we on Tunisia these days?

Meanwhile, Libya's a fucking mess, and getting worse. Go figure. Hey, we're still promised no boots on the ground, right? Next thing you know, we'll get promises that it'll only take a few days or a couple weeks, and cost no more than $17 billion.

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Monday, June 13, 2011 7:47 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
We need to change our national concept bird from the Eagle... to the Vulture, cause it's what we are, and maybe we should just admit it.

Gorramit Frem! Now YOU owe me a keyboard!

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Tuesday, June 14, 2011 5:42 AM

BYTEMITE

I've never heard DT talk about OPEC, so I wouldn't know about that. He's pretty sure about this MEFTA thing. I think both Sig and DT's ideas tie together, the only difference is which currency comes out on top in their prediction.

Maybe Israel just wants to survive, and the US's interest in Israel's survival is really more wanting to stir up wars for an excuse to go in and take over the regional economy.

BTW, DT isn't in this thread, Kwicko, so you don't have to argue with him.

EDIT: Ah, I found the OPEC reference. It was in a thread that I hadn't been paying attention to.

DT says he didn't really mean OPEC, he really means MEFTA. The oil price argument he made is an important one, however, because we're talking about an interest in a regional economy that is primarily based on oil. While we are not physically at war with OPEC, our actions in the Middle East create an economic instability that does affect oil prices, and therefore does affect OPEC and OPEC nations. In a sense, this is an economic war.

Plus, if you believe that some of the revolutions we've seen in various countries were potentially started off by western interests, then you have even more of an argument that the US is at war regionally.

The oil prices are not helped by the off-shore drilling ban, though the off shore drilling ban is actually good for other reasons. There are elements of the United States that want to the energy question to be, which do you support, off-shore drilling, fracking, coal mining, or nuclear power. The correct response is to go "Eeeugh!" then punch the person asking the question in the stomach.

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Tuesday, June 14, 2011 9:38 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up

Okay. I know that I am History in the making, and am glad you finally recognize that fact, but such important news should get its own thread, not be mixed up with this one.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Tuesday, June 14, 2011 11:26 AM

NEWOLDBROWNCOAT

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Quote:
We need to change our national concept bird from the Eagle... to the Vulture, cause it's what we are, and maybe we should just admit it.
Gorramit Frem! Now YOU owe me a keyboard!

Remember, Just Say No! Don't drink and type...

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Tuesday, June 14, 2011 4:05 PM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht

Geezer, I like that, :)

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

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Thursday, June 16, 2011 3:21 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Geezer_ Yes indeed, you are history in the making.

I wanted to point out specifically to YOU the reason for many of our wars. I thought that since you didn't have the benefit of someone pointing out to you AT THE TIME why we were involved in Chile, Brazil, Iran, Iraq etc you may have thought we were there for "freedom". Hopefully, this clears up any potential misunderstanding.

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Monday, September 18, 2023 6:44 AM

JAYNEZTOWN

Nato’s war and climate chaos: causes of the Libyan disaster
Climate induced extreme weather on its own did not lead to the deaths in Libya, Western intervention wrecked the country first

https://www.counterfire.org/article/natos-war-and-climate-chaos-causes
-of-the-libyan-disaster/

Libya floods: UN warns of concerning situation at 2 more dams after Derna disaster

https://www.scmp.com/news/world/africa/article/3234913/libya-floods-un
-warns-concerning-situation-2-more-dams-after-derna-disaster

Humanitarian Imperialism Created the Libyan Nightmare

http://www.srilankaguardian.org/2023/09/humanitarian-imperialism-creat
ed-libyan.html

Quote:
Originally posted by Geezer:
Okay. I know that I am History in the making

What a character Geezer was

did he ever listen to British Rock music

Americans React to "The Stone Roses - I Am The Resurrection"

transition to Democracy?

Obama

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