It's the little things. by Fremdfirma

Oh this mess is STILL going on, Hardware - it's far, FAR from finished yet.

Ciavarella is unrepentant, a true-blue bastard of the worst order, and that's where most of this centers on, as Conahan kinda threw himself on the mercy of the court and rolled him, then tried to back out and withdrew his plea after the fact, and Powell - let's just say that bastard is FINISHED, as finished as it gets, and up to his ass in trouble enough without much helping it along.

However, due to their less-than-human legal status, it's very unlikely any of the juvie victims will be renumerated whatsoever, and many of them have actually had to fight bitterly for expungement, those who still can, which doesn't include Edward Kenzakoski, who committed suicide as a direct result of his treatment at the Hellcamp these bastards sold him down the river to - unlikely he's the only one, but this is prominent cause his mother laid into that fucker Ciavarella on the courthouse steps.
http://www.timesleader.com/news/Deliberations-resume-in-CIavarella-tri
al.html
IMHO, the smirking bastard deserved every bit of that and more.

Here's a further account of the blow-by-blow in addition to the one above, and you can see from these where my ire at this being over the money, and the hell with the kids, comes from.
http://citizensvoice.com/news/trial-update-ciavarella-wanted-to-avoid-
scrutiny-and-publicity-1.1105217

Motherfucker is still out on bail, mind you - as the legal system drags its feet to protect its own, much like the "thin blue line", you see.
But I can hold a grudge FOREVER, and once I set my teeth in a bastards ankle, well....

I missed it while being sick and all, but since everybody made it all about the MONEY, we went after the sumbitches pension, but that unfortunately fell through.
http://citizensvoice.com/news/state-agency-drops-challenge-to-ciavarel
la-pension-1.1155333
We did get Conahan though.
http://citizensvoice.com/news/disgraced-judge-conahan-gives-up-pension
-fight-1.1156505

And so, since there was racketeering involved, and that was the original excuse the larcenous bastards of our so-called justice dept used to justify asset theft, err.. forfeiture, sauce for the goose, damn fucking right.

Quote:
U.S. Attorney Peter J. Smith filed a motion Monday seeking a “final order of forfeiture” against former Luzerne County Judge Mark Ciavarella.

A jury convicted Ciavarella on 12 counts in his corruption trial in February, and then issued a “special verdict form” calling for the forfeiture of $997,600, the amount developer Robert Mericle paid to Ciavarella as a “finder’s fee” after Mericle landed the contract to build the facility.

Prosecutors argued the money was a kickback for actions Ciavarella and former Judge Michael Conahan took to assure the facility would be a financial success.

Monday’s motion notes that a preliminary order requiring the forfeiture was issued on March 15 by U.S. District Judge Edwin Kosik. Federal rules required the government to post notice of the forfeiture on-line for 30 days so any person claiming a legal interest could petition the court for a hearing.

“No claims were filed within the requisite 30-day period,” the motion notes. “Therefore, any third-party interests are barred.” Smith then asks Kosik to issue a final order demanding the forfeiture.

And no fuckin mercy for that scumbag Powell neither.
http://www.timesleader.com/news/Foreclosure_judgment_filed_against_emb
attled_Powell_06-15-2011.html

If these bastards have a pot to piss in at the end of it all, it sure hell won't be cause we didn't try like hell to make it otherwise - and gee, do you see much outrage over the lives they destroyed in there ANYWHERE AT ALL ? - nope, just the fuckin MONEY, grrrr

And so, we deprive em of THAT, since everybody cares so damn much about it.

And yes, there's reform efforts in relation to this goin on, even if they are at the moment much like trying to push spaghetti uphill.
http://citizensvoice.com/news/judicial-court-reforms-recommended-1.116
2617

Thing is, matters like this get so complex and messy, unless there's actual interest I tend not to discuss them at length here - but that one little precedent mentioned in the first post is gonna be the snowball that starts an avalanche...

The bastards just don't know it yet.

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

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Thursday, June 16, 2011 9:06 AM

I've tried to tell my family about stuff like this and they still don't believe it. It's unbelievable how much deference people pay to judges and cops, and how people will clap their hands over their ears when you bring up abuse of teenagers and children.

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Thursday, June 16, 2011 10:13 AM

Oh don't I know it - the worst of it is that you of all people know very bloody well that the stuff I post here is the nicer, cleaner, SANTIZED stuff, as opposed to the events which occur down at the bottom of the rabbit hole...

But still, progress does get made - our all but instant society these days makes it kind of hard to mentally move out of "the now", what with wireless communication being ubiquitous, twitter and microwaves and on-demand and so forth and so on...
And one of my favorite jokes about it is mocking kids who stand in front of the microwave bouncing up and down impatient for their popcorn, boring them half to death with tales of Jiffy-pop and back-in-my-day, hehehehe.

Anyhow, look at it in a decades long historical context, and despite my ire, amazing strides HAVE been made in facing and addressing this problem.

When I initially got into this as an act of all but pre-emptive revenge, you couldn't even DISCUSS it without being flagged as a conspiracy loon, even the mere NOTION of the Hellcamps was instantly dismissed as conspiracy fodder, no-such-thing, the idea that there was rampant abuse within the Catholic Church was every bit as scorned, and heaven help you if you happened to espouse the inconceivable notion that children have rights, oh noes...

Today: WWASPS is not only exposed, but *finished*, as are their subchapters CEDU, PFC/Pathway, and their buildings lie empty, or in service to our "Extraordinary Rendition" practices, which all too closely resemble their former use, something I'll not go into at the moment.

Dozier will be gone at the end of the month, and while there's unlikely to be a full accounting, the nightmare has ended - the job isn't finished, cause there's plenty of state-run and religious Hellcamps, but step by step, they're going down.

I need not go on at length about the exposure and related fallout concerning the Catholic Church, of course, but even it's exposure to the degree that happened was a massive step forward, much less actual prosecutions and renumeration, however pitiful.

On top of that, despite all efforts to the contrary, there has been substantial advancement, by comparison, of youth rights on a more general front - ten years ago, Blake and his family would have been thrown out of court as laughingstocks for even SUGGESTING that he had a right to privacy at all, much less from his public school administrators, we might not be there yet, but we are gaining ground.

Most of that ground has been organizational, the iron fist of collective will behind many of them being the final wrecking ball which put paid to many abuses, and the notion of a full on Political PAC was merely a pipedream not even ten years ago, and while not yet enough to make politicians quail at the mention, full steam ahead, you bet.

So yeah, you're always gonna have invested effort in disbelieving such things, mainly to avoid their own culpability, moral or otherwise, but history will leave them by the wayside, as it should be.

And while it goes against my grain maybe a little bit, we have *enough* examples of tyranny and horror to remind us of the consequences, far better for all if WWASPS and their crimes are crushed into history's dust, utterly and completely forgotten...

As if they never even existed at all.

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

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Thursday, June 16, 2011 12:33 PM

Beir bua agus beannacht

Good news that the judges are being prosecuted.

I don't think they should be forgotten, rather I think they should be exposed so everyone knows how bad they were, because if we forget then it will just happen again in a while.

I know this won't be a popular position but doesn't making a nasty myspace page making fun of someone count as cyber bullying? Obviously the girl shouldn't have gotten a sentence like she got. But to make a rule that kids can't even get suspended? Wouldn't that encourage them to make all sorts of nasty pages about other classmates? Of course the girl has a right to do it just as any one else has a right. But sometimes one must face consequences for things. Of course that consequence shouldn't have been what it was in this scenario. But just saying, putting it out there.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

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Thursday, June 16, 2011 1:04 PM

Quote:
I know this won't be a popular position but doesn't making a nasty myspace page making fun of someone count as cyber bullying? Obviously the girl shouldn't have gotten a sentence like she got. But to make a rule that kids can't even get suspended? Wouldn't that encourage them to make all sorts of nasty pages about other classmates? Of course the girl has a right to do it just as any one else has a right. But sometimes one must face consequences for things. Of course that consequence shouldn't have been what it was in this scenario. But just saying, putting it out there.

The page was about her principal. As in, an adult. This wasn't cyber bullying. Arguably, the adults were probably bullying HER, and when she reacted, they gleefully used their authority against her.

If we allow this kinda thing, you could theoretically be jailed for disrespecting your teachers outside of school while online. It's an overreaction... As usually is the case whenever the adult judicial system gets involved in the prosecution of children.

We could have a reasonable argument about kids cyberbullying each other, but kids bullying adults generally doesn't happen. Rather, adults join in the bullying with the other kids. It's a different situation, and the adults in question acted inappropriately.

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Thursday, June 16, 2011 3:51 PM

Beir bua agus beannacht

I suppose you have a point since there's no way to sue or go to court over adults cyber bullying each other and maybe there shouldn't be since one would hope that adults are old enough to not let it get to them. But I have to admit that, whether a kid did it or not, I'd be rather upset if someone did that to me, especially if it was someone I liked and thought I trusted. Out of curiosity, if someone did that to me, like defimation of charactor online, would I have any recourse? I don't think I'd want to take it to legal channels, but if I did, like it was really interfering with my work/making a living would I have the right to do that?

A question for Frem: This isn't exactly related as such, but since you said you don't believe in a magic number, do you think that if a kid murders someone they should be tried as an adult? After all according to that logicthey should have the same rights as adults, so shouldn't they also be subject to the same expectations and punishments as adults? Just asking because I feel like there's a whole in the do-away-with-all-age-designation theory.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

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Thursday, June 16, 2011 3:57 PM

Yeah, you claim those as damages and sue. It wouldn't be a criminal case, but here the judge was so corrupt that he shuffled a purely civil case into a criminal case just to get at the kid here.

In response to your question to Frem, which I feel like answering as well, kid have the same rights as adults, then yes, they are subject to the same expectations. It's not like they aren't already, only six year olds are "too young to form criminal intent." Ten year old is old enough.

http://www.caller2.com/2000/march/01/today/national/1242.html

http://abcnews.go.com/US/ohio-boy-10-shoots-kills-mother/story?id=1252
9574

But as to punishments, I don't believe in capital or corporeal punishments for ADULTS either, even in the case of murder. It shouldn't be about punishment, it should be about prevention.

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Thursday, June 16, 2011 4:51 PM

Beir bua agus beannacht

Whether you call it "punishment" or prevention it still usually involves taking that person away from the general public so as to keep them from doing it again to someone else. The point is to keep people safe and keep people who kill from doing it again. I don't think that I'd toss a ten year old in with those grown up criminals though, even if the kid is a bad seed. I think a different strategy should be employed for young ones, if for nothing else to make sure that they don't become Bubba's "girlfriends".

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

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Thursday, June 16, 2011 5:01 PM

Prisoners have their own rule of law. Anyone who molests kids will be murdered in their sleep by the other prisoners. Believe you me.

And by prevention I mean something different than incarceration.

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Thursday, June 16, 2011 8:28 PM

Beir bua agus beannacht

Byte a chara,
Lets step away from kids for a second and talk humans in general. Do you have an idea for what you'd do with someone who murdered two people (for this instance lets say she doesn't have any mental illnesses/doesn't fit any diagnostic criteria). Where would you put her and what would you do with her? Its okay if you don't have a formulated answer yet, I just want to hear about alternatives to jail that you think would be suitable. I'll be the first to agree that jail can be run very poorly. But I don't think I can think of a better solution, except maybe handing her over to the family whose folk she killed, that would certainly save the state a lot of money. But I don't think that's what you're going for. :)

As a side note, in Ireland in the early midieval period under the Brehan (yes I know its an anglicized spelling, shame to me) laws murder, among other crimes, required the criminal to pay a man price to the family to make up for it. If the price was not paid in a reasonable amount of time then the family would come and take their stuff to cover the price. Death as an official punishment wasn't very common. Now if you commited kin slaying that was one of the most serious crimes and you could be sent into exile or sometimes killed. Of course as is common in most cultures feuds would start etc. But yeah, that man price thing was how they took care of most things.
"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

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Thursday, June 16, 2011 11:31 PM

Pffth, in response to the MySpace page, the solution was so simple the only way the administrator in question missed it was deliberate malice.

Call the kids parents, hell-O, that's as close to proper procedure as such a grey area has, and it's the polite, decent, common sense thing to do, but this wasn't ABOUT correcting the somewhat over the top behavior of a student, oh no, once you realize that simple step wasn't taken it becomes obvious what this was about - REVENGE.

The administrator wanted to use the law, and it's enforcers, as a proxy weapon against the student cause they were all offended and their ego was wounded - counting almost wholly upon that very lack of civil rights I make such *issue* of all the time, you see... COUNTING ON IT, mind you, in the same fashion a spree-shooter selects gun free zone as a target, counting on unarmed victims, or emboldened criminals count on meek compliance instead of resistance.

All social problems I've addressed elsewhere - but in the general theme of "victim handed over on a plate", which is exactly WHY the civil rights of minors *MUST BE ENFORCED* in every case where it makes any goddamn sense to.

So far as crimes, juvie vs adult - tis a bullshit designation anyway, if the juvie had full awareness of the impact and consequences of the crime, and this can be shown beyond reasonable doubt to a jury, then they take the full damn rap.
If they did not, could not - then they are incompetent to stand trial and it becomes a mental health issue, AS IT SHOULD BE.

But of course our courts don't work the way they're supposed to, so you're asking me what fuel to put into a car with blown piston rings in order to fix it - when NO grade of fuel is gonna fix that problem cause it's something that needs fixing in a different fashion.

Not to mention we really oughta move our concept from retributive justice to restorative justice, and fully acknowledge that a damn lot of "criminal" problems are in fact mental health problems - a compulsive shoplifter isn't gonna be fixed by locking them up for 2yrs, 5yrs and then 15 more as a three time loser and habitual offender, cause they're in the WRONG DAMN PLACE to fix the fuckin problem in their wiring upstairs, eh ?

So... no simple solutions, but at least the problems are pretty damn clear when you strip the bullshit and excuses off, yes ?

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

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Friday, June 17, 2011 5:41 AM

OLDENGLANDDRY

bump

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Friday, June 17, 2011 5:44 AM

What I'd do is aim for a system that has a very low count of murder and crime against members of the community, by addressing the causes of such crimes. Where the crimes can't be addressed, I generally like exile - while the target of a crime might be one person, the consequences are society wide, so it's the community as a whole that has to make a decision about what to do.

Generally I think there's two kinds of killing. There's the kind that comes from a long period of tension, maybe from childhood or maybe even a feud. Then there's the kind of killing that happens because the victim has something the killer wants - a woman, a man, money, and so on.

The first can be tricky, but I also believe that if you cut off a feud before it becomes a BLOOD feud, it can be solveable.

The Scots and the Irish had a much better idea on how to run a system humanely, aside from the honour killings, which are also easily fixable (especially because honour killings has been on the decline in our society). :) For these kinds of long standing tensions and feuds, the Scots used to put the two argumentative sorts on an island together with no weapons and a couple other people to keep them from killing each other, in order to get them to come to some kind of compromise that both can live with. Friends from the community would help see to their business for as long as they were gone, mostly because in these cases EVERYONE was a little tired of the arguing.

The problem with the Scots is that they also had a clan system with feuds to the degree that sometimes this solution became impossible, but among single families and communities it actually worked pretty well. There's a village in Scotland that still does this as tradition that hasn't had a murder in 200 years.

The other case, where someone kills someone else to gain possession of something... Any one who would kill someone else for material reasons is someone who has either permanently or temporarily LOST their empathy (where stealing girlfriends and boyfriends in this way is also ignoring the feelings of the other person in question). They are therefore a sociopath. I also think that there are few born sociopaths in the world, most sociopaths, according to the definition I made, are created, unnatural, and potentially treatable, through therapy and/or medication (if experience/stress has altered the person's brain chemistry).

For the Irish idea of compensation for a murder, while it may seem reprehensible to some that you could put a price on the life of a person, on the other hand it could work socially because incarcerating someone for near a life sentence is a waste and they become a burden on society. At least this way, a person could attempt to rebuild their lives and their reputation after they paid the compensation.

And if they are a serial killer, they might very well be one of the rare people who are born sociopaths, and exile may be considered, because simply these people won't ever fit into society in an acceptable manner. But it's important to consider their life experiences first before making this determination, because actually most of the serial killers you can name had a seriously bizarre and awful childhood, which suggests these were also created instead of born that way.

And so the final aspect of the society I would propose would be reducing and maybe even hopefully eliminating the kind of abuse that leads to that kind of errant development into a serial killer.

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Friday, June 17, 2011 9:05 AM