U.S. in peace talks with Taliban. by oldenglanddry

REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

U.S. in peace talks with Taliban.

POSTED BY: OLDENGLANDDRY
UPDATED: Wednesday, June 29, 2011 20:26
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Saturday, June 18, 2011 7:05 AM

OLDENGLANDDRY

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-south-asia-13821452

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Saturday, June 18, 2011 7:47 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!

This should go over about as well as Israel talking peace w/ the PLO.

" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Saturday, June 18, 2011 8:33 AM

DREAMTROVE

Edit: Didn't want to overuse that one, worked better with the other thread.

That's what a ship is, you know - it's not just a keel and a hull and a deck and sails, that's what a ship needs.

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Sunday, June 19, 2011 7:11 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Quote:
The United States has been engaged in peace talks with the Taliban, Defense Secretary Robert Gates told CNN's "State of the Union" on Sunday, 11 days before he is set to resign.

"There's been outreach on the part of a number of countries, including the United States," he said. "I would say that these contacts are very preliminary."

I heard this and am of two minds about it, as usual for me when it comes to our involvement in Afghanistan. I want our guys out, but I hate to think of the Afghanistan which will exist if the Taliban gains control. There are no easy answers.

Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off

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Tuesday, June 21, 2011 8:14 PM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht

Yuck the Taliban. Its a shame we didn't irradicate them already so we could bring our troops home and be done with the whole shabang.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

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Tuesday, June 21, 2011 10:14 PM

HKCAVALIER

Quote:
Originally posted by RionaEire:
Yuck the Taliban. Its a shame we didn't irradicate them already so we could bring our troops home and be done with the whole shabang.

You sure you want to say "irradicate?" Sounding just a tad genocidal there, is all. You're not going to irradicate the Taliban without irradicating a whole hell of a lot of innocent people. It would be like carpet bombing NYC to eradicate the Italian Mafia. And guess what, you do that, and when the smoke clears, the Mafia from New Jersey just takes over the abandoned territory. And you're back to square one, only now you've killed a million people and everyone on the East Coast hates you with a fierce passion that will last for generations to come. Welcome to American foreign policy.

Why, oh why are we still making such primitive gorram decisions? I can see that people don't want to stand idly by while evil is being done, but at some point in human history we have to consider the possibility that we are not all-powerful and we may not be able to change situations that have been thousands of years in the making just by killing a whole bunch of people. It boggles the mind.

Oh, and I'm not doing a spelling police thing here, but the word you mean is spelled "eradicate." If I didn't mention it, Mike would prolly call the spelling police on ME.

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

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Wednesday, June 22, 2011 6:05 AM

FREMDFIRMA

Agreed, killing people to change their mind is essentially a pointless exercise, innit ?

-F

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Wednesday, June 22, 2011 6:23 AM

STORYMARK

Quote:
Originally posted by HKCavalier:

You sure you want to say "irradicate?" Sounding just a tad genocidal there, is all.

Is the Taliban a race? Is everyone in Afghanistan part of the Taliban?

Was it genocide to call for the eradication of the Nazis?

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

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Wednesday, June 22, 2011 6:59 AM

BYTEMITE

No, but rather like with "kill the terrorists!" it's really kinda hard to differentiate between members of the Taliban and innocent civilians. Sometimes, informants LIE and have GRUDGES.

Nazis wore rather identifiable uniforms. Most of them were poor doofs who were either dumb kids that bought the rhetoric and didn't know what they were getting into or were forcibly conscripted. The average grunts on the field didn't get called to the Nuremberg trials, and even though it boggles our minds to think it, had no idea about the concentration camps.

Most Taliban fighters in Afghanistan are wearing the rags on their backs and are people pulled from backwards villages and given guns and told to fight or their families die.

I save my ire for the really evil sadist shows and psychopaths behind the conflicts.

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Wednesday, June 22, 2011 1:15 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)

Little background on the Taliban and al Qaeda, and especially Osama bin Laden:

The Taliban head, Mullah Omar, says he swore an oath to protect Osama bin Laden and give him safe passage and sanctuary. In the culture of Afghanistan, I've heard, such an oath, once given, is unbreakable; it's a matter of highest honor.

So why is he talking peace now? Why is he willing to negotiate and talk to us? Because Bin Laden is now dead. He didn't swear his oath to al Qaeda, or to a group, but to A MAN. That man is gone, Mullah Omar lived up to his end of the bargain, and his "honor" is intact as such. He can now feel free to sell out the rest of al Qaeda if he wishes, or to compromise on behalf of the Taliban, and while WE might not understand his reasoning, his people will abide by it.

It's an odd culture, it seems, where a man's word is stronger than any legal contract, and where a man would subject his entire country to a war rather than go back on his word.

But if he's willing to talk, we should be willing to listen. After all, what better alternatives do we have?

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Wednesday, June 22, 2011 8:19 PM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht

Quicko, your post bears consideration. What you mention is interesting. I might have to think about that.

Thanks Storymark, that's what I meant and I'm glad that you at least understood what I was talking about.

As for spelling, I'm not the best at it as is clearly seen.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

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Thursday, June 23, 2011 11:00 AM

FREMDFIRMA

Nanawatai
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nanawatai

Quote:
Nanawatai is a tenet of the Pashtunwali code of the Pashtun people. It allows a beleaguered person to enter the house of any other person and make a request of him which cannot be refused, even at the cost of the host's own life or fortune. A similar code of conduct is used by the neighbouring Baluch people.

Traditionally it is used to refer to a request for sanctuary, whereby the host must be willing to fight or die for the sake of anyone who comes knocking at his door seeking refuge, even if it is a sworn enemy.

As the burden of sanctuary and protection extends even to fighting against government troops on behalf of the person seeking refuge, some have suggested that Mullah Omar's refusal to turn in Osama bin Laden was due only to his having availed himself of nanawatai.

For a better understanding of Pashtun culture and how that applies, and the nature of Pashtuns in general in respect to conflict, I highly suggest the movie based on William Mastrosimone's screenplay.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Beast_of_War

A lot of my own tenets cross over with Pashtun ones, which is why I get along so well with the expats up in Dearborn, mind you - better comprehension of their mentality and core beliefs, although on some things we don't agree, of course.

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

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Thursday, June 23, 2011 11:40 AM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht

I'll bet all that lovely hospitality and defending stuff only applies to men though, grumble grumble, :(

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

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Thursday, June 23, 2011 12:18 PM

FREMDFIRMA

Well, given that women in much of Afghanistan have no status save that relative to either a male relative or a husband, generally any protection is automatically extended to any women in his care, wife, sister, daughter, etc.

In a gallows humor sort of way, one of the reasons that even more enlightened Pashtun are reluctant to offer Nanawatai (although not Jirga) to women is the possibility of getting involved in marital squabbles, which although rare, can be pretty damn epic when they do happen - there HAS been one case, much to the amusement of some folk at RAWA, where an adulterous lech of a husband was forced to seek sanctuary with his neighbor, FROM his very angry wife who was hell bent on removing the offending parts from his person with a cooking knife.

The villagers were a bit more sympathetic than usual and didn't act against her because who do you think he was being adulterous WITH, and a village is a small place yanno, not to mention apparently this lady was something of a terror and they found it tremendously entertaining in a rough-justice sort of way.

Anyhow, yes, that the personhood of women isn't that respected is a point of conflict between me and them - but it doesn't help matters a whole lot when (other than RAWA) a lot of Afghan women act in really counterproductive and self-destructive fashions about the matter, not the least of which is the damn NFA, as if simply changing which sex is the oppressor would solve anything ?

One thing for damn sure, having Afghan men pissed at you is bad enough... piss off the women though, oh my, might as well suck-start a shotgun, it'd be kinder.

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

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Monday, June 27, 2011 12:57 PM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht

Sure the protection covers women as well, ... unless one of them went out alone or talked to a man she wasn't married to, oh rutting horrors. Then she's fair game for being killed etc. Yucky, can you tell that I hate this behavior/attitude?

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

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Monday, June 27, 2011 1:05 PM

FREMDFIRMA

Oh you're certainly not alone in that.

Hell, I constantly argue with RAWA over their methods, for while it's true violence is a piss-poor method of solving problems, there really are some folk in the world who DO need their ass kicked - albeit I favor winding them up against each other rather than putting any of those poor women at any further risk than they already are.

Believe me, ain't too hard to get the northern alliance warlords and the talitubbies shootin at each other, and the way I see it, that reduces the pool of dickheads by just that much... of course, they don't agree, and they got a point too.

Still, I feel ya - it's just that adding more violence to this situation mostly just results in more bodies, quickly replaced by even more young, stupid fools as fast as they can breed em, and the answer to THAT, is to remove the "stupid" part by educating them, cause even I can argue pretty damn hard right from their own beliefs that their current conduct is way beyond the pale, but if they can't READ the friggin quaran, how can I prove it ?

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

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Monday, June 27, 2011 1:47 PM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Uhhh, Mike, that's not universal...and you're right, it's a complex and odd culture. Bear in mind that they've been evolving since the 50s, when I was there, and even then there were signs that politics was beginning to take hold. While what you wrote might well be true, it's also true that the URBAN culture at least has assimilated more and more the "values" (or lack thereof) of Western society. So I can't say whether the reasoning is what you said or the Taliban/Omar are figuring that negotiating with us is the best way to get rid of us, then they can reclaim their power and go on their merry way.

I've said it before: When we were there, they played both ends, Russian and American. They'd get a grain siloh from the Russians, and let the Americans know, who would then give them a school. America gave them an airport and an airline (the building of which was why my dad was there); Russia gave them the one real road they had then (which, ironically, led to Russia and was used in their invasion!). Afghans/Pushtuns are canny bargainers--in fact it is something they respect, getting the "best" out of those they bargain with, never forget that.

It's very hard for us to understand the mentality and the culture. On one hand, Nanawatai was very real (at least when we were there) and in the rural areas was held to VERY strongly...in many, MANY ways the Afghan people were some of the most generous I've ever met. On the other hand, they played us against Russia to get the most they could out of both, which is very savvy. So who knows?

Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off

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Wednesday, June 29, 2011 8:26 PM

STORYMARK

Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:

Nazis wore rather identifiable uniforms. Most of them were poor doofs who were either dumb kids that bought the rhetoric and didn't know what they were getting into or were forcibly conscripted. The average grunts on the field didn't get called to the Nuremberg trials, and even though it boggles our minds to think it, had no idea about the concentration camps.

I think you are falsely equating Nazis with German troops.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

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