REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Wisconsin union reforms an early success

POSTED BY: AURAPTOR
UPDATED: Wednesday, July 6, 2011 19:24
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Friday, July 1, 2011 3:41 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!



Wisconsin unions and their Democrat lackeys, who fought union contracting reform noisily and ferociously, and who predicted doom, now look like knaves. The reforms already have saved jobs, saved money, and improved education.

Taking work rules and health insurance contracting out of the collective bargaining framework leads to better results.

Byron York in the Washington Examiner looks at one school district in Wisconsin, where...after the law went into effect, at 12:01 a.m. Wednesday, school officials put in place new policies they estimate will turn that $400,000 deficit into a $1.5 million surplus. And it's all because of the very provisions that union leaders predicted would be disastrous.

"The monetary part of it is not the entire issue," says Arnoldussen, a political independent who won a spot on the board in a nonpartisan election. Indeed, some of the most important improvements in Kaukauna's outlook are because of the new limits on collective bargaining.

In the past, Kaukauna's agreement with the teachers union required the school district to purchase health insurance coverage from something called WEA Trust -- a company created by the Wisconsin teachers union. "It was in the collective bargaining agreement that we could only negotiate with them," says Arnoldussen. "Well, you know what happens when you can only negotiate with one vendor." This year, WEA Trust told Kaukauna that it would face a significant increase in premiums.

Now, the collective bargaining agreement is gone, and the school district is free to shop around for coverage. And all of a sudden, WEA Trust has changed its position. "With these changes, the schools could go out for bids, and lo and behold, WEA Trust said, 'We can match the lowest bid,'"

http://www.americanthinker.com/blog/2011/07/wisconsin_union_reforms_an
_early_success.html



" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Friday, July 1, 2011 5:50 PM

FREMDFIRMA



Just more proof that with the right distorted lens, one can shovel any viewpoint.

AT is part of the echo-chamber apparatus of the right wing, a vertiable circle-jerk of know nothings who make wild, unsubstantiated claims and then link to EACH OTHER to "prove" them before vomiting them upon us via ignorant useful idiots like Rappy here, who chugs the koolaid and regurgitates on command like a good little puppet.
Quote:

American Thinker (AT) is a conservative daily internet publication. According to it website, American Thinker presents a "thoughtful exploration of issues of importance to Americans."

There is ample evidence to support the notion that AT serves as part of the right wing's echo chamber.

A good example of this can be found in a December 5th, 2007 piece on the National Intelligence Estimate report on the state of Iran's Nuclear weapon's program.

Writer Ed Lasky first refers to an Editorial in the New York Sun inferring that the intelligence community is against President Bush. Lasky concludes that "the National Intelligence Estimate was cooked up by bureaucrats eager to embarrass George Bush and transform US policy towards Iran." To substantiate his argument he goes on to quote an editorial from the Wall Street Journal which avers the authors of the NIE study are: "former State Department officials with previous reputations that should lead one to doubt their conclusions. All three are ex-bureaucrats who, as is generally true of State Department types, favor endless rounds of negotiation and "diplomacy" and oppose confrontation. These three officials, according to the Wall Street Journal, have 'reputations as hyper-partisan anti-Bush officials'." This statement "Hyper-partisan anti-Bush officials", restated as fact in the AT article, is quoted and requoted by rightwing blogs and news sources throughout the media.


Case in point.
and yes, I am using Pravda as the example source JUST to grind your nerves, or would you rather I have chosen, say... PirateNews ?

The West uses homosexuality to undermine Russian family traditions
http://english.pravda.ru/society/stories/30-06-2011/118361-russia_homo
sexuality-0
/

USA's largest corporations founded by Russians
http://english.pravda.ru/business/companies/20-06-2011/118257-immigran
ts_usa-0
/

Your info is only as good as your source, and when your so-called source is as fake as Talon News Service, AND has a documented history of making unsupported and factually incorrect claims - what response should you expect, in fact, what response do you DESERVE, but howling, mocking laughter ?



-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

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Friday, July 1, 2011 5:58 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


So, basically, what we have here from Frem is a meaningless diatribe of irrelevant , inane babble, and then ignoring the fact that Wisconsin is in fact reaping the benefits o' union reform.

Great.

Got it.

As you were.


" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Saturday, July 2, 2011 3:34 AM

FREMDFIRMA



This is what I love about useful idiots like Rappy here - they're useful to me, too.

Since anything outside their EXTREMELY narrow viewpoint on the world is met with a utter incomprehension, followed by abject denial, it's so wonderfully pathetic, especially when you get them spinning in a little mental circle where they all but pretend you don't exist - it's almost as good as being invisible, you can walk right through em, do whatever you please, and they're so bloody hell bent on denying the reality you present that their simple little cognitive process winds up ignoring YOU, and one can take a lot of advantage of that.

But never you fear, Rappy - I'd never, ever harm you, or even allow you to come to harm, cause for a fact folks like you are the best recruiting drive my cause *EVER* had, one look at your malice, your ignorance, your downright willful and deliberate STUPIDITY, and they come runnin to me in droves, to protect em from the likes of you, and the sociopathic scum you'd enable, if only you could find the competence to do so, completely unaware that the very folk you're so hell-bent on supporting are going to fuck *you* FIRST, the minute they have the means cause you're a flagrant liability to any cause you chose to support.

So by all means please continue to rant and rave, save me the trouble of pouring sand in the gears of all YOU hold dear, since every time you open your mouth, you do it for me.


-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

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Saturday, July 2, 2011 4:17 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


What a miserable, empty life you must have, to yammer on so tediously against anyone who doesn't view the world through your cynical, spiteful eyes.

Fact is, the Gov and the GOP were right, and that pisses you off.

Deal.


" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Saturday, July 2, 2011 4:40 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Hookaay... let's see... that extra 2.5 hours... that's a half-hour break taken out of each day. So if you make people work longer hours for less pay, you save money? Whooda thunk! And that health insurance savings? Are they getting the same coverage, or less?

I have a better idea. Let's make them work ten EXTRA hours a week for NO increase in pay, and remove health insurance altogether! Later, we can make the teachers work for a bowl of rice, and hold wrestling matches to see who gets to keep their job.

And the right accuses Obama of class warfare? You're such a rabid little footsoldier for the wealthy, arntcha?

All anyone has to do is read your statements... which I have quoted (above) to know how much you despise regular hard-working Americans.

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Saturday, July 2, 2011 4:52 AM

DMAANLILEILTT


So the law went into effect on Wednesday and on Saturday you're claiming it as a success? Huh.

"I really am ruggedly handsome, aren't I?"

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Saturday, July 2, 2011 5:13 AM

THEHAPPYTRADER


Quote:

Further, changes in work rules are leading to smaller class size, and more one on one tutoring.

"In the collective bargaining agreement, high school teachers only had to teach five periods a day, out of seven," says Arnoldussen. "Now, they're going to teach six." In addition, the collective bargaining agreement specified that teachers had to be in the school 37 1/2 hours a week. Now, it will be 40 hours.

The changes mean Kaukauna can reduce the size of its classes -- from 31 students to 26 students in high school and from 26 students to 23 students in elementary school. In addition, there will be more teacher time for one-on-one sessions with troubled students. Those changes would not have been possible without the much-maligned changes in collective bargaining.

The nation is watching Wisconsin, thanks to the dramatic antics of the left, so the lessons to be learned are important. Labor unions are out to protect inefficient practices. Taxpayers just got a better deal by ignoring their tantrum and reforming the way we contract with the people who used to be known as servants, but for too long have behaved like masters.



Band directors in southern Georgia often have to work all periods even when their counterparts in math or English work all but 1. Granted, GA is apparently on the lower end of the teacher friendly scale and I may just be used to them getting 'mistreated.' However, many schools have gone to block scheduling (which I think is a mistake) so that one period off is closer to two. Except of course for the music and art folk who probably still get nothing.

The point is, training to become a teacher in college and speaking with current, past and prospective teachers, many of these things like the 40 hour (at least) work week and little (or for us artsy types no) planning period was just part of the job. There may be more to it than is posted in AURaptor's source, but as is things really don't sound that bad. In fact, it sounds like they're finally having to work as hard as the rest of us, which is probably exactly what the GOP would like us to beleive. Doesn't necessarily mean they are right about it though.

If they actually reduce class sizes and deliver the one on one time needed with children with special needs that would be great. Of course, I've heard that posturing around here often enough and haven't seen it delivered in special education.

I am interested in this topic and opposing views. Does anyone have another source and take on this topic? That would be more productive than "you're wrong" "you're source is wrong" "you are an idiot" etc...

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Saturday, July 2, 2011 6:39 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


I'm still looking for other sources, but I came across this:
Quote:

I can’t say that I’ve studied labor and employment closely enough to develop an opinion on every issue involving unions and union politics. But I do know a botched legal opinion when I see one, and the Wisconsin Supreme Court’s anti-union opinion is a phrenic blunder unworthy even of a first-week law student.

One need only read the Wisconsin court’s decision in Ozanne v. Fitzgerald, the controversial union case, to see that the court is populated by politicians rather than jurists. One of the most fundamental paradigms in our legal system involves the relationships between different levels of courts. Most of us, when we think of courts, conjure mental images of one judge behind a bench with twelve jurors looking on while witnesses testify and lawyers lawyer. That level of court—the one that gets all the attention in our pop culture—is the trial-court level.

Generally speaking, higher courts—“appellate courts”—exist to correct legal mistakes made by trial courts. There are no juries or witnesses or evidentiary exhibits in appellate courts; appellate courts are not fact-finders—juries are. Since appellate courts don’t see witnesses or look at all the physical evidence, they generally don’t second-guess trial courts’ findings of fact.

Take, for example, a witness who testifies—over one of the lawyers’ objection—that he saw the accused stab the victim. Suppose that the jury believes the witness and convicts the accused. An appellate court won’t second-guess whether the witness was credible, i.e. whether the jury was correct to believe the witness. But an appellate court will review the legal decision of the trial judge to allow the witness to testify over a lawyer’s objection.

In the Wisconsin case, the state’s Supreme Court—the state’s highest appellate court—converted itself into a trial court and made findings of fact without even taking evidence. On top of that, none of the parties had even asked the Supreme Court to act as a finder of fact; the court did that on its own—just for giggles. This was an extraordinary breach of judicial canons and so mangled the basic tenets of our court structure that it calls into question not just the motives of the court’s members, but also their intelligence.

The court, having exceeded all bounds of its own proper role, went on to accuse the trial judge of exceeding her authority by prohibiting the publication of what she deemed to be an unconstitutional law before it could be enforced. The Supreme Court stated that by doing this, the trial judge had invaded the lawmaking province of the legislative branch, which the judicial branch may not do.

The four justices responsible for this proposition apparently missed the day in law school when we teach a case called Marbury v. Madison, which is nothing but the most famous case in all of American constitutional jurisprudence. In that case, it was established once and for all time that—you guessed it!—the judicial branch has the authority to review and decide on the constitutionality of any act of the legislative branch.

But the Wisconsin Supreme Court stated—citing another case from the same court from 1943—that a court cannot determine whether a law is constitutional until after it has been published because prohibiting its publication somehow interferes with the process of making law. (The idea here seems to be that although a court may rule that a law already made is unconstitutional, a court may not hold that the legislative branch has behaved in an unconstitutional way while making the law. Why this would be so is anyone’s guess.)

In support of this proposition, the court did no more than cite the antique case from 1943 and restate its premise. In so doing, as was noted in a stinging dissent, the court simply skipped right past more recent cases that seem to point in the opposite direction.

But more importantly, the court never explained how stopping the publication of a law interferes with the lawmaking process. By the time a law is ready for publication, it has already been made. No more committees will meet, no more floor debates will erupt, and no more drafting or editing will be undertaken. So, again, how does stopping the law from being published interfere with the process of making the law? If there is any intelligible answer to this question, the Wisconsin Supreme Court certainly could not have been bothered to provide it.

All of these infirmities—procedural mischief, the mangling of fundamental precepts of American law, the invention of facts without the taking of evidence, the failure even to address the most fundamental legal question at issue in a case—all of these are telltale indicators that something terribly untoward, and usually singularly political—is afoot.

But having elected base ideologues to the highest court in their state, the people of Wisconsin will have to seek other—even more political—avenues to remedy what they themselves have wrought.

http://beeryblog.wordpress.com/2011/06/15/wisconsin-courts-anti-union-
ruling-debases-the-rule-of-law
/




Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off



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Saturday, July 2, 2011 6:46 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by SignyM:



And the right accuses Obama of class warfare? You're such a rabid little footsoldier for the wealthy, arntcha?




They only call it "class warfare" when we actually fight back. They really hate it when people stand up for themselves.

Let's just go ahead and get this right out in the open: the official policy of the Republican party and the "conservative" movement is this: IF YOU AREN'T RICH, WHITE, AND MALE, HURRY UP AND DIE!

That's their position in its entirety.

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Saturday, July 2, 2011 7:07 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Quote:

The reforms already have saved jobs, saved money, and improved education
Raptor, not that you will (or can), but cites please--of FACTS. Estimates don't count.What I wrote at the time was that it has nothing to do with saving money; that can easily be seen by the fact that Scott Walker GAVE AWAY the same amount as the anti-union laws were supposed to save (because he claimed that amount was the "deficit" that had to be fixed), gave it away in tax cuts to corporations. Ergo, if he hadn't done so, there would have been no "need" for the law. It was an excuse for class warfare and union busting, nothing else.
Quote:

The Senate bill severely restricts collective bargaining for tens of thousands of the state's public worker unions and increases their health care and pension contributions. Wisconsin has some 175,000 public sector workers. It also would require unions to take a vote of members every year to continue to represent workers.

A number of other states where Republicans swept to victory in the 2010 elections are considering measures dealing with public sector unions. They include Ohio, Indiana, Iowa, Idaho, Tennessee, Kansas and New Hampshire.

Can anyone ACTUALLY say these moves are for the reasons stated, and not just a concerted effort to kill union representation by public workers?? If so, they're just deliberately lying or wearing partisan blinders...or both.

Why require unions members to vote every year to continue representation by unions? They can opt out any time they want, so this alone makes it obvious the law is nothing but an effort to make being a member of a union more difficult, and make unions less effective.
Quote:

it would face a significant increase in premiums
That means less than nothing; show me one place in the working sector that HASN'T seen massive increases in premiums, with workers picking up more and more of it?

There's also the fact that the public employees unions AGREED to increase their members' contributions to pensions and health costs, but Walker wouldn't even meet with them. That by itself ALSO proves the law is a union-busting measure and nothing else. They'd already WON their points, and yet they went beyond that.


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off



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Saturday, July 2, 2011 7:11 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Ah, I found some stuff from "the other side" for you Happy, which provides links and facts and figures:
Quote:

If Governor Walker succeeds in breaking the public unions in Wisconsin, other states may follow suit, and decades of rights for workers may be erased.

Wisconsin Governor Walker has refused to negotiate with unions in his state under any circumstances, unless the collective bargaining power is stripped away from state workers. The budget crisis Walker is blaming for the give-back by unions is due to tax breaks for big business and the wealthy, according to Fox News.

"Wisconsin Gov. Scott WalkerScott Walker said Monday afternoon he won't negotiate over his plan to strip most collective bargaining rights from nearly every public employee as he works to plug a $3.6 billion hole in the state budget," according to MSNBC News.

If the Wisconsin unions have agreed to accept pay cuts and additional out of pocket contributions for benefits like health insurance, why doesn't Governor Walker accept the offer that achieves the needed budget dollars?

Union supporters claim Walker is using the budget shortfall as an excuse to break unions. Some even claim that the budget crisis was made-up.

"The state budget is not in any kind of real peril. The Wisconsin Legislative Fiscal Bureau estimated that the state would end fiscal year 2011 with a gross positive balance of $121. 4 million".(see Budget at http://legis.wisconsin.gov/lfb/Misc/2011_01_31Vos&Darling.pdf)

There is more at stake in Wisconsin than pay cuts. Many suggest it is about the future of America for workers in every state. Without unions, worker safety, living wages, and benefits like health insurance, will lose their most powerful enforcer.

http://www.allvoices.com/contributed-news/8260511-wisconsin-union-agre
es-to-pay-cuts-but-gov-walker-wants-union-busted-too


Walker refused to even talk about compromise, despite the unions' already agreeing to cuts and increased contributions:
Quote:

Friday, Marty Beil, head of the Wisconsin State Employees Union, said his members would agree to pay more of their pension contributions and health insurance benefits as Walker is demanding. But Beil said his union would never agree to give up decades-old bargaining rights.

Beil's union is part of AFSCME, the largest state and local employee union in Wisconsin, which represents 68,000 workers for the state, Milwaukee, Milwaukee County and other municipalities. An AFSCME spokesman said Beil was speaking for all the group's union locals in the state.

"We are prepared to implement the financial concessions proposed to help bring our state's budget into balance, but we will not be denied our God-given we will not - I repeat we will not - be denied . . . right to join a real union our rights to collectively bargain," Beil said in a statement.

Mary Bell, the president of the Wisconsin Education Association Council, the state's largest teachers union, said her group also would make the financial concessions to keep its bargaining rights.

"This is not about money," Bell said in a phone conference. "We understand the need to sacrifice."

Walker flatly rejected the offer

More at http://www.jsonline.com/news/statepolitics/116470423.html

Unions even agreed to pay cuts--for the second time:
Quote:

Around 1,500 Dane County employees represented by American Federation of State, County and Municipal Employees, or AFSCME, agreed to a temporary pay cut, to help Dane County address its severe revenue shortfall.

The negotiated agreement includes a 3 percent reduction in pay for 2010. If all county employees adopt the pay cut, it would save Dane County $4.7 million.

This is the second time in less than 6 months that ASFSCME members voluntarily agreed to pay reductions.

This past July, union members agreed to reduce their pay by 5 percent, a move that saved the county $3.3 million.

http://www.channel3000.com/money/21408587/detail.html


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off



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Saturday, July 2, 2011 7:21 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


HAPPYTRADER
Quote:

they're finally having to work as hard as the rest of us
Oh, if we all should only have to work as "hard" as CEOs for so little money!

There is a parable that has to do with two Polish peasants. One had a cow, the other did not. That grated every day on the one who didn't have a cow... all that milk, all that butter, those calves, just for grass in the summer and hay in the winter... such a source of income! The cow-less peasant thought about that every day.

One day, as he was gathering mushrooms, he began to pick a special one. Out of it came a faerie.

"Please, don't pick me!" it said "And I will grant you anything you want. Anything! Just ask"

So the poor peasant said

"I wished my neighbor's cow was dead"


Do you understand what that means about you?

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Saturday, July 2, 2011 10:14 AM

THEHAPPYTRADER


Not exactly, no. Just saying that raptor's source makes it appear that the aren't doing any worse than educators in my state and it appears they have little to complain about. Of course, I also said that I believe this is what the GOP would like us to believe and that it may not be accurate. I thought I made that fairly clear, or were you intentionally cherry-picking?

Ya know, your parable is not unlike how you and several others would like to redistribute the wealth earned in the private sector. What does that say about you?

But this ad hominem is pointless and distracting. Information is more convincing. I know it may be thinking outside of the box for many of ya, but how's about we argue with evidence, like niki did. I think she made a good point concerning how Wisconsin could have been better served without the big buisness breaks, but that doesn't necessarily mean the public sector cuts weren't needed.

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Saturday, July 2, 2011 10:33 AM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


"it appear that the(y) aren't doing any worse than educators in my state" ... But only by the mercy of TPTB. If TPTB should choose differently - what recourse would those teachers have?

"but that doesn't necessarily mean the public sector cuts weren't needed." ... but those can be negotiated with the unions if needed (and that is questionable, along with the alleged 'success'). What YOU are arguing is that unions should be gutted. And let me ask you about the teachers in your state ... Do they have unions? And are those unions responsible for whatever benefits and protections exist? (BTW - the answer is yes, unless you are in one of 5 states where teacher's unions are illegal*.)

So, what exactly are you trying to say here, except that unions are responsible for whatever well-being the teachers everywhere have, and you think teachers shouldn't have that ... or the ability to stand up for themselves as a group and gain it. I take it that IS your point ...


*
states where unions are illegal and standing in national testing scores
South Carolina – 50th
North Carolina – 49th
Georgia – 48th
Texas – 47th
Virginia – 44th

http://www.businessinsider.com/states-where-teachers-unions-are-illega
l-2011-2


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Saturday, July 2, 2011 10:47 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

Not exactly, no.
Exactly so. yes. Instead of congratulating other teachers' success and aspiring to join them, you're willing to drag them down. You should be asking yourself "Why? Why do I begrudge my fellow teachers their benefits, but not bankers and CEOs? "
Quote:

Ya know, your parable is not unlike how you and several others would like to redistribute the wealth earned in the private sector.
The difference being... can you figure it out?

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Saturday, July 2, 2011 1:11 PM

THEHAPPYTRADER


Ah, I think I understand your misunderstanding. I'm not viewing this as "they don't deserve it, fuck 'em." I don't want these teachers to lose what's a pretty sweet deal (by public education standards anyway) just because it's something I wouldn't have access to. Just saying that cuts need to be made and this is one I've already seen a system get by without.

I'm addressing this only because I think I might have unwittingly gave the wrong impression. I'm now ignoring any irrelevant personal questions or attacks.

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Saturday, July 2, 2011 2:36 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

Just saying that cuts need to be made and this is one I've already seen a system get by without.
Really? Why? There is more money floating around today than ever before. So why do cuts "need" to be made?

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Saturday, July 2, 2011 2:41 PM

THEHAPPYTRADER


Aren't they still in a deficit, just like every other state?

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Saturday, July 2, 2011 4:32 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Well, a deficit is the result of income less expenses. What about income?

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Saturday, July 2, 2011 4:40 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.



THEHAPPYTRADER please point out any 'irrelevant personal attacks'. Thank you.

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Saturday, July 2, 2011 5:36 PM

FREMDFIRMA


Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:
This was an extraordinary breach of judicial canons and so mangled the basic tenets of our court structure that it calls into question not just the motives of the court’s members, but also their intelligence.


I thought that whole Prosser thing already called those things into question - or at least it damn well should have.

*That* bench needs to be SWEPT.

-F

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Saturday, July 2, 2011 6:55 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:
This was an extraordinary breach of judicial canons and so mangled the basic tenets of our court structure that it calls into question not just the motives of the court’s members, but also their intelligence.


I thought that whole Prosser thing already called those things into question - or at least it damn well should have.

*That* bench needs to be SWEPT.

-F




Nahhh - Scott Walker will just have the lege write a law making it illegal to choke a woman out if she's talking back to you, and they'll grandfather Prosser in...


Meanwhile, we've got Marco Rubio telling us that doing away with tax breaks for the private-jet-set won't do anything to reduce the deficit - but somehow, cutting benefits to teachers will. I get it - billionaires are short of cash, and teachers are paid too much.

Makes perfect sense (not).

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Sunday, July 3, 2011 5:54 AM

NEWOLDBROWNCOAT


Quote:

Originally posted by SignyM:
Well, a deficit is the result of income less expenses. What about income?



" You sure you ain't one uh them lib'ruls, there, boy? You talkin' 'bout raisin' taxes, ain''chu?"


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Sunday, July 3, 2011 7:23 AM

THEHAPPYTRADER


I must be misunderstanding, but are you advocating ending the deficit by increasing public employee income? I don't understand how spending more government money will decrease the deficit. When I am low on cash I have to get by with less. I realize the state of Wisconsin is a mite more complicated than my bank account, but I would think the general notion of spending less is most effective means of reducing debt.

I understand why those teachers are resisting. The government can say 'we all need to do our part to end the recession, etc...' but we all know as soon as they give their benefits up, they ain't getting them back, even when the economy improves. While I think they will getting by just fine with this new deal, I don't fault them for trying to keep what the had.

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Sunday, July 3, 2011 7:33 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by TheHappyTrader:
I must be misunderstanding, but are you advocating ending the deficit by increasing public employee income? I don't understand how spending more government money will decrease the deficit. When I am low on cash I have to get by with less. I realize the state of Wisconsin is a mite more complicated than my bank account, but I would think the general notion of spending less is most effective means of reducing debt.

I understand why those teachers are resisting. The government can say 'we all need to do our part to end the recession, etc...' but we all know as soon as they give their benefits up, they ain't getting them back, even when the economy improves. While I think they will getting by just fine with this new deal, I don't fault them for trying to keep what the had.




Happy, if you find yourself in a deficit mode, does it ever occur to you to take on a second job, to increase your revenue? What if, say, you had a catastrophic injury that cost you $250,000 in medical bills - would you just cut your spending to make that money magically appear in your bank account? Or would you maybe think about doing something to bring in more money as well?

Similarly, I understand WHY the billionaires don't want to pay their fair share of taxes, but I think they would get along just fine with a new deal that eliminated all tax breaks for the wealthy and corporations. Of course, we all knew that once they GOT those Bush tax breaks, they weren't ever going to give them up.

Right?


Everyone on the right seems to be fine with the poor and the middle class having to give up THEIR "cushy" lifestyles and sacrifice to get through economic hard times. What I can't figure out is why they think none of the wealthy should have to share in the sacrifice.

Wisconsin claims it "saved" over $140 million by screwing its public sector employees. Problem is, they didn't use that to pay down their deficit - the governor instead went right out and gave that much money in tax rebates to his rich corporate buddies. So the deficit is where it was, and that nasty socialist governor just decided to redistribute the wealth from the less wealthy to the most wealthy.

And conservatives call it "fair". Of course, they also whine and cry about "class warfare" if anyone should have the gall to call them on it.

As I said before, they only call it "class warfare" when the poor fight back.

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Sunday, July 3, 2011 8:13 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Quote:

Ya know, your parable is not unlike how you and several others would like to redistribute the wealth earned in the private sector. What does that say about you?
Nobody is saying we want to redistribute the wealth earned in the private sector, we just want FAIRNESS,...you know, everybody having to tighten their belts? Why is it fair to cut public employees' salaries, make them contribute more to health insurance and pensions, yet it's NOT all right to tax the rich? I wish someone on the right would explain that one to me.

There is a fiscal problem. Public employees earn a salary and contribute to health care and pensions Cut their salary, up their contributions...that's kind of the same as a tax INCREASE, isn't it? CEOs and banks earn a salary, but gawd FORBID we should levy any more tax on THEM...and they were just given a tax cut which helped cause the fiscal problem. So they got a double plus, public employees got a triple minus. You really think that's fair? I'm betting you do, which is why I don't understand the mentality.
Quote:

Just saying that cuts need to be made and this is one I've already seen a system get by without
First off, cuts DIDN'T "need" to be made...I posted the URL to the actual budget of Wisconsin, and even their budget office said there was no deficit (aside from the one created by giving out tax credits). It's a trick to utilize the power the right gained in the midterms to kill unions, or why wouldn't he even negotiate?
Quote:

Aren't they still in a deficit, just like every other state?
You must have missed what I posted:
Quote:

"The state budget is not in any kind of real peril. The Wisconsin Legislative Fiscal Bureau estimated that the state would end fiscal year 2011 with a gross positive balance of $121. 4 million".(see Budget at http://legis.wisconsin.gov/lfb/Misc/2011_01_31Vos&Darling.pdf) IS no "deficit" per se...check out the budget itself, if you want.

Second, I'd like to see how you feel about the system "getting by without" when our educational standards drop below even what the are NOW, and we have fewer trained people to fill the jobs that need them. There was a time in my memory when teachers were at a premium, there weren't enough to fill the available jobs. If we get to that lace again, this time it won't be because teaching is a useful, lucrative occupation, it will be because teachers don't make enough to attract good candidates. Isn't that the excuse for paying CEOs and so forth such exorbitant salaries, even after they trashed pensions, investments, etc.?
Quote:

are you advocating ending the deficit by increasing public employee income?
Obviously not. The public employees already accepted two pay cuts and agreed to pay more for pensions and health care. How is that increasing their income???
Quote:

While I think they will getting by just fine with this new deal
They will get by just fine by increasing class sizes, having their pay cut TWICE--when exactly is the last time you had your salary cut and felt you were "getting by just fine". I wonder.
Quote:

Everyone on the right seems to be fine with the poor and the middle class having to give up THEIR "cushy" lifestyles and sacrifice to get through economic hard times. What I can't figure out is why they think none of the wealthy should have to share in the sacrifice.
Right on Mike, that is the one aspect that always leaves me shaking my head. Layoffs, eliminating programs that are vital safety nets--which means more layoffs--cutting salaries, increasing contributions. But the rich CEOs, banks, investment houses, etc., there is NEVER a reason to in any way lessen their "salaries" (if you will). People who are laid off have virtually no way to pay the bills (and if you think unemployment pays the bills and isn't an incentive to work, boy, what fantasy world you must live in!); those who make millions a year; would they suffer nearly as much if they had to give up a bit more? I know what Wulf would say; it's a life choice, those people shouldn't have taken jobs that didn't pay as much and might be cut. Riiiight...and people who worked 30, 40 years for a company, who started working there in the days when you worked a lifetime for one company, hey, they don't count, they made a bad life choice.
Quote:

Problem is, they didn't use that to pay down their deficit - the governor instead went right out and gave that much money in tax rebates to his rich corporate buddies
Mike, you actually have it backwards, which makes it even worse; virtually the MINUTE he got in office, he gave out that $140 million...then weeks LATER he cried poor and went after the unions! So he gave it away to his corporate buddies, then "charged" public employees to make it up. So you're right to ask: If that's NOT class warfare, please tell us what is!


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off



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Sunday, July 3, 2011 9:51 AM

THEHAPPYTRADER


Responding via itouch, which is slow and frustrating, so I just want to correct a couple missconceptions for now.

1.) I never said we shouldn't tax the rich or that the middle class should pay for everyone. Please do not falsely attribute a position to me for the purpose of arguing against it.

2.) The claim is that the bill enabled them to reduce the class size (from 31 to 26 I think) and provide more one on one time to 'troubled children.' I'm guessing that's meant to refer to children with special needs and they really do need all the one on one time they can get.


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Sunday, July 3, 2011 9:56 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by TheHappyTrader:


I never said we shouldn't tax the rich or that the middle class should pay for everyone. Please do not falsely attribute a position to me for the purpose of arguing against it.






Boy, don't ya hate it when that happens?

Quote:

Ya know, your parable is not unlike how you and several others would like to redistribute the wealth earned in the private sector. What does that say about you?




Hmmmm...

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Monday, July 4, 2011 6:53 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


The tax situation is more complex than income taxes. As you know, state income is made of a number of components: income tax, sales tax, property tax, corporate tax, fees, and the like.

Ryan offered a big carrot to business by the following. Here is a discussion from Forbes (Source should be business-oriented enough for even the most conservative!)

http://blogs.forbes.com/leesheppard/2011/02/15/wisconsins-cheesy-tax-c
uts
/

This is what states are doing: grinding their citizens in favor of business. The "logic" is that if business isn't offered a favorable tax rate, then business will cease "creating jobs". AS IF TAX RATES HAD ANYTHING TO DO WITH DEMAND FOR PRODUCT. (snicker)

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Monday, July 4, 2011 9:23 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Excellent article, Sig; and by a FINANCE source, too. Some pertinent excerpts:
Quote:

Is it possible to cut taxes while addressing a state budget deficit—leaving aside misguided folk belief in supply-side economics?

Wisconsin’s new Republican governor, Scott Walker, is cutting small business taxes while trying to reduce essential spending and threatening to prevent public employees from striking. The state has a budgetary shortfall of $3 billion over two years (Wisconsin budgets biennially). But Walker campaigned on creating a business-friendly climate, and called a special legislative session to enact his plans.

Walker just won legislative approval for the centerpiece of his tax cut plan. This is a dangerous restriction on legislative action in the long run, if for no other reason than it would be difficult to repeal.

Walker’s enacted tax cut plan is punching Swiss cheese holes in the state budget for the benefit smaller businesses in terms of gross receipts (sorry, couldn’t resist that one). The Walker-instituted changes that can be priced add up to $100 million over two years already.

Oh, football clubs are businesses, too. The Green Bay Packers are reportedly planning to ask local voters to approve extension of a special additional 0.5 percent sales tax, worth $19 million annually, to fund their purchase and redevelopment of land around Lambeau Field. Public policy experts oppose the extension, arguing that sales tax revenue can be put to better use, like public education and transportation funding.




Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off



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Wednesday, July 6, 2011 7:24 PM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht


Either way, I can't help but think about how helpful it would be for my little brother if he had only 23 kids in his class instead of 30. I'm opposed to limiting collective bargaining as a general principle, but I'm open to seeing how this goes and if it works well, since there wasn't a way to get out of it in the first place.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

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