Core Overload? by SignyM

That is not a happy sounding thing.
Where the hell are the army engineers... oh, right.
So much for national security, pffth.

-F

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Tuesday, June 28, 2011 6:38 AM

Nothing quite like flood assisted dispersal of radioactive contamination across a settled flood plain.

Jeezy peezy. When did America turn into a frikkin' third world country?

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Tuesday, June 28, 2011 6:55 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

On the subject of which:

Quote:
A raging wildfire near the Los Alamos National Laboratory in New Mexico will keep the facility closed for a second day on Tuesday as firefighters battle brisk winds and warm temperatures, authorities said.

"No other fires are currently burning on Lab property, no facilities face immediate threat, and all nuclear and hazardous materials are accounted for and protected," a statement from the lab said.

The Las Conchas fire, which flared up during the weekend, was reportedly about a mile from the lab's southwestern boundary Monday night, according to a statement on InciWeb, an online interagency database that tracks fires, floods and other disasters.

The fire, which has spread across nearly 44,000 acres, is burning to the north and northeast, according to InciWeb. It was 0% contained as of Monday night.

Additionally, a one-acre spot fire was reported on the lab's property, at its southern boundary.

"Air crews dumped water at the site within the Lab's Technical Area 49 and brought the blaze under control," a statement from the lab said.

Los Alamos, a center of American nuclear science, is one of the nation's top national-security research facilities.

The fire near the lab has raised concerns about whether hazardous materials kept there are being adequately guarded. Authorities say they are.

"They have anticipated the problem of fire, and they've taken precautions," Sen. Jeff Bingaman of New Mexico said Monday. "The structures that are central to the operation of the laboratory are well protected."

http://www.cnn.com/2011/US/06/28/new.mexico.los.alamos/index.html?hpt=
hp_t2

Dunno what the result of fire would be, as opposed to flooding, but it's truly strange...maybe the End Times truly ARE upon us...

Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off

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Tuesday, June 28, 2011 6:09 PM

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)

The irony of it is just too rich, really.

This, after being told just a few months ago that OUR nuclear plants were virtually impervious to the kinds of hazards that befell Fukushima.

You could almost hear the voices... "Nope, no chance of a tsunami HERE! After all, this is the middle of the country - how could a wall of water ever hit us HERE?! Oh. Dang it. "

And now Los Alamos is in danger. Nope, not water or earthquake. Fire. Big fire. Uncontrolled fire. Fire threatening to burn the labs that first unleashed that particular fire on the world

Sometimes we make plans. Sometimes it feels like fate laughs at those plans, cackling wildly while whispering coldly, "I don't *think* so..."

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Tuesday, June 28, 2011 6:20 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
Nothing quite like flood assisted dispersal of radioactive contamination across a settled flood plain.

Jeezy peezy. When did America turn into a frikkin' third world country?

Somewhere around the time that a group of guys armed with sophisticated weapons known as "box cutters" launched such a devastating attack on us that it eventually collapsed our economy, caused us to spend untold trillions on "preemptive wars", and led us to be directly and indirectly involved in the deaths of hundreds of thousands of other people who had nothing to do with the attack.

Here's the real WMD:

Because of these WMD, we can build roads in Afghanistan and Iraq, but we can no longer build and maintain roads here at home. We can build their people new schools, but can't afford to keep our teachers. We can focus on their infrastructure, but lack the ability or the will to repair our own failing infrastructure.

But we still have the bread and circuses. For now.

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Tuesday, June 28, 2011 6:23 PM

Quote:
Posted by Niki:

Dunno what the result of fire would be, as opposed to flooding, but it's truly strange...maybe the End Times truly ARE upon us...

If they are, it's because we brought them on ourselves.

Pat Robertson says it's all the fault of "the gays"...

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Tuesday, June 28, 2011 7:48 PM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht

Further proof to me that we don't have any business using nuclear power anymore, its time to grow up and move along, we can't control this stuff if crap happens and in realityland crap always happens eventually. This is our oppertunity to realize that we need to start moving away from nuclear power because of its sinister force energy.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

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Wednesday, June 29, 2011 3:42 AM

Salem 2 went down a while ago as well, hot shutdown mode due to coolant pump failure, or so I hear.

-F

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Wednesday, June 29, 2011 5:06 AM

http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,2080446,00.html#ixzz1Qg
mKYnUX

I checked and checked all of the news sources but I couldn't find any updates.

Have we all died yet?

It is a truism that almost any sect, cult, or religion will legislate its creed into law if it acquires the political power to do so, and will follow it by suppressing opposition, subverting all education to seize early the minds of the young, and by killing, locking up, or driving underground all heretics - RAH

...and he that has no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one. Luke 22:36

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Wednesday, June 29, 2011 8:01 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Despite recognizing that was just a snark, here's some updates for those ACTUALLY interested:

Quote:

Residents downwind of a wildfire that is threatening the nation's premier nuclear-weapons laboratory are worried about the potential of a radioactive smoke plume if the flames reach thousands of barrels of waste stored in above-ground tents.

"If it gets to this contamination, it's over — not just for Los Alamos, but for Santa Fe and all of us in between," said Mai Ting, a resident who lives in the valley below the desert mesas that are home to the Los Alamos National Laboratory.

Chris Valvarde, a resident of the Santa Clara Pueblo about 10 miles north of Los Alamos, questioned officials at a briefing Tuesday evening, asking whether they had evacuation plans for his community. Los Alamos, a town of 11,000, already sits empty after its residents were evacuated ahead of the blaze, which started Sunday.

"I know it's the worse scenario to think of," Valverde said. "But when the radiation leaks, are we prepared to get 2,000 people out?"

Lab Director Charles McMillan said the barrels contain transuranic waste — gloves, toolboxes, tools — and other items that may have been contaminated through contact with radioactive materials. Top lab officials declined to say how many barrels were on site or how they are stored. An anti-nuclear group has estimated there could be up to 30,000 gallon-drums.

Los Alamos County Fire Chief Doug Tucker, whose department is responsible for protecting the lab, said the barrels are stacked about three high inside of tents on lab property.

The wildfire, which has swelled to nearly 95 square miles, has already sparked a spot fire at the lab. The fire Monday was quickly contained, and lab officials said no contamination was released.

Top lab officials and fire managers said they're confident the flames won't reach key buildings or areas where radioactive waste is stored above-ground. Areas around those buildings have been cleared of vegetation and are surrounded by gravel or asphalt, they said. As a last resort, foam could be sprayed on the barrels to ensure they aren't damaged by fire, they added.

The site's manager for the National Nuclear Security Administration said he evaluated the precautions and felt comfortable. The agency oversees the lab for the Department of Energy.

"I have 170 people who validate their measures," Kevin Smith said. "They're in steel drums, on a concrete floor."

Flames were just across the road from the southern edge of the famed lab, where scientists developed the first atomic bomb during World War II. The facility cut natural gas to some areas as a precaution. The lab will be closed through at least Thursday.

The streets of Los Alamos were empty Tuesday, with the exception of emergency vehicles and National Guard Humvees. Homeowners who had left were prepared: propane bottles were placed at the front of driveways and cars were left in the middle of parking lots, away from anything flammable.

The wildfire has destroyed 30 structures south and west of Los Alamos, for many stirring memories of a blaze in May 2000 that destroyed hundreds of homes and buildings in town.

Favorable winds have helped firefighters, who were busy trying to keep the fire from moving off Pajarito Mountain to the west of Los Alamos and into two narrow canyons that descend into the town and the lab.

"Everything is just so dry and ready to burn," Tucker said. "We need some rain. Snow would be nice." He added that even containment lines had dangerous smoldering stumps and burning roots that could easily ignite fires.

Lab spokesman Kevin Roark said environmental specialists were monitoring air quality, but the main concern was smoke. Lab personnel and the state environment department were monitoring the air for radioactivity and particulates. The state was also working to get additional ground-based monitors and an airborne monitor.

Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off

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Friday, July 8, 2011 8:33 AM

Are we all dead yet?

It is a truism that almost any sect, cult, or religion will legislate its creed into law if it acquires the political power to do so, and will follow it by suppressing opposition, subverting all education to seize early the minds of the young, and by killing, locking up, or driving underground all heretics - RAH

...and he that has no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one. Luke 22:36

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Friday, July 8, 2011 11:21 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

You brought this back from nearly ten days ago...why, exactly? To say THAT?

Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off

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Friday, July 8, 2011 2:44 PM

With everything else seeming to go wrong on this front recently, some pessimism is to be expected.

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Friday, July 8, 2011 5:55 PM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Are we all dead yet?

Geee... I wonder how the "Fukushima 50" are doing? Must be doing great, 'cause we don't hear about them any more. Right?

There is as much information to be gathered from lack of news as there is from news. When my hubby said the EPA was putting out bogus numbers, I said they'd never do that... but that I would worry if they suddenly stopped testing. Which they did.

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Friday, July 8, 2011 9:16 PM

PIRATENEWS

John Lee, conspiracy therapist at Hollywood award-winner History Channel-mocked SNL-spoofed PirateNew.org wooHOO!!!!!!

Mission Statement of Corps of Engineers: Refuse to release floodwater gates until maximum damage is ensured.

AKA the New False Flag by the NWO.

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Saturday, July 9, 2011 1:45 AM

Wow! Shortest post ever by PN. And he didn't try to blame it on the jews either. You're slipping PN.

And yes, Niki. After all the whining and moaning and "WE'RE ALL GONNA DIE!!!111!!!" bullshit that has been spewed, I brought it back. You doomsayers and bitchmoaners got to vent your spleens. I figured someone should make sure you got the leftovers.

It is a truism that almost any sect, cult, or religion will legislate its creed into law if it acquires the political power to do so, and will follow it by suppressing opposition, subverting all education to seize early the minds of the young, and by killing, locking up, or driving underground all heretics - RAH

...and he that has no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one. Luke 22:36

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Saturday, July 9, 2011 2:24 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Are we all dead yet?

Geee... I wonder how the "Fukushima 50" are doing? Must be doing great, 'cause we don't hear about them any more. Right?

There is as much information to be gathered from lack of news as there is from news. When my hubby said the EPA was putting out bogus numbers, I said they'd never do that... but that I would worry if they suddenly stopped testing. Which they did.

Well, remember that our own nuclear industry apologist HW here assured us nothing was wrong at Fukushima.

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Saturday, July 9, 2011 7:02 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

There was an interesting line in a movie which went... "when they tell you not to panic, then it's time to panic". Not that panic is ever a good thing, but REACTING APPROPRIATELY is.

BTW HW... I tried looking up the Fuku-50, I really did. I don't think they're dead, but I doubt they're entirely healthy either. Whatever they are, they are entirely out of sight. It would take going to Japan and doing an investigation to find them.

The problem with radioactive contamination, especially internally, is that it can take years to kill you. So, no- I don't expect to see ppl incinerated in a flash of light and blown away by a hot wind. It ain't gonna work that way. Kids will get sick, people will get thyroid cancer, miscarriages and stillbirths and mutations will occur, then later some will get lung cancer or leukemia. Not everyone, of course. Only more than usual, but dead just the same.

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Saturday, July 9, 2011 6:34 PM

Kwicko, the only thing I ever said about Fukushima was that based on what was being reported, things were not as bad as the doomsayers were guessing they were.

Hooray, the "We're all gonna die!!!111!!!" crowd got your 1 in 1000 correct.

But you get all pissy when I point out the other 999 you get wrong.

It is a truism that almost any sect, cult, or religion will legislate its creed into law if it acquires the political power to do so, and will follow it by suppressing opposition, subverting all education to seize early the minds of the young, and by killing, locking up, or driving underground all heretics - RAH

...and he that has no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one. Luke 22:36

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Saturday, July 9, 2011 7:28 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

H-W

The difference between then and now, for you, is baseline shift. What used to be unacceptable is now normal. It goes like this:

Wow that was a bad H2 explosion.

Didn't that have MOX? It didn't look like the other H2 explosions.

No one seems to be reporting anything bad.

You know, no major evacuations, no reports of massive radiation in Japan. If there was fallout here, we'd hear about it anyway. I guess. I hope.

It's been a while. Still no news of anything real bad. I guess they're coping OK with the melt downs.

Melt throughs. Whatever. I wonder if Pacific fish will be good. Maybe I won't eat salmon for a while.
.....
. . . . . . . . .

If corium hits the water table and explodes in one giant steam explosion, I think you'll be here saying ... see. that wasn't so bad.

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Sunday, July 10, 2011 6:28 AM

No, the difference is you presume everyone is lying to you and is against you. I give the benefit of doubt until it is proven they are lying.

Some might call you paranoid.

But back to the issue at hand. Has Fort Calhoun melted down and killed us all?

It is a truism that almost any sect, cult, or religion will legislate its creed into law if it acquires the political power to do so, and will follow it by suppressing opposition, subverting all education to seize early the minds of the young, and by killing, locking up, or driving underground all heretics - RAH

...and he that has no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one. Luke 22:36

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Sunday, July 10, 2011 7:32 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Hardware

Quote:
No, the difference is you presume everyone is lying to you and is against you. I give the benefit of doubt until it is proven they are lying.

I am going to provide you with a link (I can provide several, but I'm short of time) PROVING there is an ongoing conspiracy to downplay Fukushima. But like a good technocrat, it will not change your mind. From the horse's mouth, by leaked email:

Quote:
Leaked Emails Reveal Government Conspiracy To Downplay Fukushima Nuclear Disaster

leaked emails show the officials the government conspiring with the nuclear industry to come up with a plan, not to protect the health and safety of the public, but to prevent damage to the nuclear industry by keeping the severity of the disaster from the public.

http://blog.alexanderhiggins.com/2011/07/03/guardian-leaked-emails-rev
eal-government-conspiracy-downplay-fukushima-nuclear-disaster-32731/

Technology is always at the behest of politics. Please read "The Mismeasure of Man" by Stephen J Gould, Harvard University professor.

So the question is... are you a scientist, or a technocrat? The scientist never stop asking questions. The technocrat stops questions.

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Sunday, July 10, 2011 8:37 AM

Change my mind about what? That 3 reactors suffered partial or total meltdowns that depending on the unit, may have gone all the way through the containment structure? That's what the latest credible information has already said.

Asking questions is not the same as believing every hack that comes along with "secret documents". If you're going to do that you may as well subscribe to PN's "news" feed.

It is a truism that almost any sect, cult, or religion will legislate its creed into law if it acquires the political power to do so, and will follow it by suppressing opposition, subverting all education to seize early the minds of the young, and by killing, locking up, or driving underground all heretics - RAH

...and he that has no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one. Luke 22:36

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Sunday, July 10, 2011 9:04 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

WHEN did you change your mind, HW? When officials told you to? The test of real knowledge is being able to PREDICT. Were you able to? Or were you always behind the curve?

Of course, if you don't like the news you'll believe source is "a hack'. I assure you, the Guardian is not a hack newspaper. I suggest that you validate your own personal opinion before you discard data. I don't believe in PN's faerie tales, nor DT's. Occasionally, they are brilliant. Mostly, I filter the chunkies. Do you even know the players? Before you decide who to trust and what to discard, do some due diligence. You might find that you're wrong. Be scientific about it. Follow the data, but don't limit your scope of inquiry.

As an aside, I am often asked to evaluate data. Many times, I have nothing more than a complex table of numbers to look at... a 20 X 30 X 10 X"X"array... From tables of numbers, I have been able to deduce that thee labs were involved in particular test (WSPA was profoundly surprised), or that an analysis was saturated, or that a particular project had especially robust data. I'm very careful with data. You should be too. Empty your mind and let the data speak to you.

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Sunday, July 10, 2011 11:13 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

So, Hardware... I showed your post to a friend of mine who's spent 35 years doing research for a major university, and this is what he said (paraphrased):

Quote:
No, the difference is you presume everyone is lying to you and is against you. I give the benefit of doubt until it is proven they are lying.

Scientists don't credit "opinion", nor do they presume that anyone is "lying" or telling "the truth". Science isn't based on either.

Quote:
Some might call you paranoid.

Did Galileo care what the Church called him? Science is neither democracy, nor is it a popularity contest.

Quote:
But back to the issue at hand. Has Fort Calhoun melted down and killed us all?

No one claimed that ft Calhoun was going to "kill us all". You wouldn't be trying to set up a straw man argument, would you?

Anyway, just FYI.

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Sunday, July 10, 2011 11:47 AM

In other words, HW, we should all listen to our government, all the time, correct?

How could that ever go wrong?

Gulf of Tonkin.
Pentagon Papers.
Watergate.
Iran-Contra.
Ruby Ridge.
Waco.
WMD.

... and the beat goes on...

Kind of surprised to hear that you're so dead-set against questioning the "official" story in all instances.

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Sunday, July 10, 2011 11:54 AM

BTW, you claim that Fukushima was our "1 in 1000" times at being right.

I have to ask, can you show me ONE SINGLE TIME where I've said, and I quote your words attributed to all who disagree with you here: "We're all going to die!!!!11111!!!" ?

Can you show me that post where I ever claimed that? Even one time out of a thousand would do.

I think you've either got your head wedged all the way up your ass, or you're engaging in more than a little bit of hyperbole in trying to accuse others of engaging in hyperbole.

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Sunday, July 10, 2011 1:26 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
The test of real knowledge is being able to PREDICT.

Fat lotta good that did Cassandra, and believe me, I know how she felt - there's really no comfort in being right about such awful things, but what really, really grinds my gears, is when the same folk who dismissed and scoffed and mocked and shouted down... come back, long after it's too goddamn LATE to do anything useful about the situation, with half-hearted apologies and beg advice!
I won't even paraphrase my response to that, but be assured it's damn nasty.

Worse is being consistently, tho not perfectly, accurate over a long period of time...
(And I wish, I WISH, I was wrong more often)
And still getting immediately shouted down without an ounce of consideration for that fact, again and again.

So while it may be a test of knowledge, Siggy, it's not very damn USEFUL when folks are so blind, shortsighted, and full of wishful thinking that having that knowledge doesn't mean accomplishing anything with it cause they'd rather go on believing in faery tales till it comes back and bites them on the ass personally...
And then they have the nerve to come to me and fuckin whine about it, when their own actions helped cause it by kneecapping the folks who WERE trying to prevent it.

I really don't have enough understanding of how nuclear plants and radiation works to comment directly on the situation - but I did feel the need to point out that without anyone willing to listen, the knowledge, the ability to predict - it buys ya nothing, changes nothing.

As to why folks do this, it's simple, those three little words no one wants to say, murders, wars, all manner of hell happens cause no one ever wants to say "I was wrong." - something I consider moronic cause most of the times I have been, I was damn glad to be so!
But it goes deeper than that, when folks start investing their lives, their very beliefs in a system, be it religious, political or what have you, cause to admit they were lied to, to admit they were duped....

That means admitting some percentage of their entire life has been based on a lie.
And the bigger that percentage is, the harder that admission becomes, to where you get folk like Rappy, to whom reality itself is not sufficient to convince them.

And the ones you DO manage to convince, they'll hate you for it, the emotional version of shooting the messenger cause they don't like the message.

So having the knowledge isn't enough, you have to have the ability to thread it through the needle of their own "issues" and emotional investments to reach whatever thought-process they actually use, if any, in order to have any impact on a situation - and most of those ways, they ain't very nice, doll.

Just sayin.

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

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Sunday, July 10, 2011 4:27 PM

Quote:
Fat lotta good that did Cassandra, and believe me, I know how she felt - there's really no comfort in being right about such awful things, but what really, really grinds my gears, is when the same folk who dismissed and scoffed and mocked and shouted down... come back, long after it's too goddamn LATE to do anything useful about the situation, with half-hearted apologies and beg advice!

Worse yet, is when after you've been proven completely correct, they all want to sit around and say, "Well, nobody could have foreseen this turn of events" and "Surely this is no time for placing blame and finger-pointing!"

You know who says it's no time to place blame and point fingers? The ones who know goddamned well they're to blame.

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Sunday, July 10, 2011 5:28 PM

TWO

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
So having the knowledge isn't enough, you have to have the ability to thread it through the needle of their own "issues" and emotional investments to reach whatever thought-process they actually use, if any, in order to have any impact on a situation - and most of those ways, they ain't very nice, doll.

Actually, sometimes you have to threaten to arrest their corporation officers. But threaten in a polite way.

If flood waters at Fort Calhoun Nuke had reached 1010' in 2010, there was a 100% chance of a meltdown. The NRC complained to the owner of Fort Calhoun Nuke, who said there wasn't that much to worry about because the actual chance of a meltdown was less than 23.9%. But there is a happy ending to the story.

The NRC’s managers used the agency’s enforcement process to compel the plant’s owner to remedy the shortcomings rather than endlessly debate the risks. The NRC’s actions led to tangible changes in flood protection measures at Fort Calhoun. Workers at Fort Calhoun procured more portable pumps, fabricated new flood plates to protect against flooding up to 1014 feet, verified readiness of sandbagging equipment and materials, and took additional flood protection steps. - http://allthingsnuclear.org/post/6795320523/the-nrc-in-action

The moral of the story: Don't worry, be happy because there is no meltdown so long as the Missouri River doesn't get to 1014 feet above sea-level. Until then, Omaha, the biggest city in Nebraska, downstream of Fort Calhoun Nuke, is inhabitable.

Does everyone feel so much better knowing that Omaha is four feet in elevation further above death and destruction than was originally reported? Does that extra margin of safety make you feel good?

Fort Calhoun Nuke on Google Maps: http://bit.ly/qIzTJ2 lat 41.520965° lon -96.076845°

The Joss Whedon script for "Serenity," where Wash lives, is
Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/two

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Sunday, July 10, 2011 7:07 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

H-W

"... that depending on the unit, may have gone all the way through the containment structure? That's what the latest credible information has already said."

Out of curiosity, when did you get to be OK with melt-throughs? When did that become an acceptable normal?

And, BTW, just based on your happy accommodation to the horrific, I am still seeing this in you future:
If corium hits the water table and explodes in one giant steam explosion, I think you'll be here saying ... see. that wasn't so bad.

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Monday, July 11, 2011 5:48 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
So, Hardware... I showed your post to a friend of mine who's spent 35 years doing research for a major university, and this is what he said (paraphrased):
Quote:
No, the difference is you presume everyone is lying to you and is against you. I give the benefit of doubt until it is proven they are lying.
Scientists don't credit "opinion", nor do they presume that anyone is "lying" or telling "the truth". Science isn't based on either.
Quote:
Some might call you paranoid.
Did Galileo care what the Church called him? Science is neither democracy, nor is it a popularity contest.
Quote:
But back to the issue at hand. Has Fort Calhoun melted down and killed us all?
No one claimed that ft Calhoun was going to "kill us all". You wouldn't be trying to set up a straw man argument, would you?

Anyway, just FYI.

I think this quote from Niki will cover that argument.

Quote:

Dunno what the result of fire would be, as opposed to flooding, but it's truly strange...maybe the End Times truly ARE upon us...

I think referring to the end times qualifies as "WE'RE ALL GONNA DIE!!!111!!!"

It is a truism that almost any sect, cult, or religion will legislate its creed into law if it acquires the political power to do so, and will follow it by suppressing opposition, subverting all education to seize early the minds of the young, and by killing, locking up, or driving underground all heretics - RAH

...and he that has no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one. Luke 22:36

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Monday, July 11, 2011 5:52 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
BTW, you claim that Fukushima was our "1 in 1000" times at being right.

I have to ask, can you show me ONE SINGLE TIME where I've said, and I quote your words attributed to all who disagree with you here: "We're all going to die!!!!11111!!!" ?

Can you show me that post where I ever claimed that? Even one time out of a thousand would do.

I think you've either got your head wedged all the way up your ass, or you're engaging in more than a little bit of hyperbole in trying to accuse others of engaging in hyperbole.

You are merely one of the Greek chorus of doomsayers on this forum. See Niki's quote above for the "WE'RE ALL GONNA DIE!!!111!!!" Statement. And that's not even adding in her fearmongering over the Los Alamos fires.

I didn't say you said it. You don't really loom that large in my concerns of the day Kwicko. You're just a minor concern that needs to be set in line from time to time.

It is a truism that almost any sect, cult, or religion will legislate its creed into law if it acquires the political power to do so, and will follow it by suppressing opposition, subverting all education to seize early the minds of the young, and by killing, locking up, or driving underground all heretics - RAH

...and he that has no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one. Luke 22:36

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Monday, July 11, 2011 5:56 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
In other words, HW, we should all listen to our government, all the time, correct?

How could that ever go wrong?

Gulf of Tonkin.
Pentagon Papers.
Watergate.
Iran-Contra.
Ruby Ridge.
Waco.
WMD.

... and the beat goes on...

Kind of surprised to hear that you're so dead-set against questioning the "official" story in all instances.

Our government wasn't releasing statements regarding Fukushima. That pretty much demolishes your argument. Can you name one scandal the current Japanese administration lied to the public about prior to Fukushima?

Despite the leftard's opinions, our government is not responsible for curing all of the world's problems.

Unless you have some superior, unimpeachable source of information on what was happening? I don't know anyone personally who works at Fukushima, so I had to take official news reports and Japanese government statements.

Sorry, the voices in your head don't count.

It is a truism that almost any sect, cult, or religion will legislate its creed into law if it acquires the political power to do so, and will follow it by suppressing opposition, subverting all education to seize early the minds of the young, and by killing, locking up, or driving underground all heretics - RAH

...and he that has no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one. Luke 22:36

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Monday, July 11, 2011 6:08 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by 1kiki:
H-W

"... that depending on the unit, may have gone all the way through the containment structure? That's what the latest credible information has already said."

Out of curiosity, when did you get to be OK with melt-throughs? When did that become an acceptable normal?

And, BTW, just based on your happy accommodation to the horrific, I am still seeing this in you future:
If corium hits the water table and explodes in one giant steam explosion, I think you'll be here saying ... see. that wasn't so bad.

I'm not okay with it. But there's no use arguing over what might have been. It is the situation we are presented with. The question is; what is being done about it?

At this point there's no credible information on whether the melt down went through the concrete base of the reactor vessel. That they went through the steel in at least one case is pretty well accepted. But IAEA and the Japanese government have been disquietingly silent on the actual conditions at the plant. If they all stayed inside the concrete, it would be a godsend. If they went through the bottom and are laying in the basement of the building, or worse, all the way to soil, well, they're screwed. A large patch of Japanese territory is going to be uninhabitable, Chernobyl style.

You know, after Chernobyl the armored, remote controlled robots that were needed there were designed. EVERYONE but the FRENCH declined to build them. The French sent a couple to Fukushima, not sure if they were sold or loaned. My money's on sold. Pretty sad when the French are better prepared for a worst case scenario than everybody else. Then again, the French get most of their power from nukes, so it isn't that surprising.

It is a truism that almost any sect, cult, or religion will legislate its creed into law if it acquires the political power to do so, and will follow it by suppressing opposition, subverting all education to seize early the minds of the young, and by killing, locking up, or driving underground all heretics - RAH

...and he that has no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one. Luke 22:36

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Monday, July 11, 2011 6:55 AM

Yes, if the contamination got into the soil and the groundwater it would be very bad.

The data seems pretty clear to me; there's been a detected and measurable release. Maybe you're seeing something else, but I'd concur with Sig based on what we know.

We don't have word from the government of Japan or the IAEA, sure, but I'm pretty sure we can use inductive reasoning to figure out what's happened without their confirmation one way or the other, which might be a long time coming.

Also, did we really have to make a jab at the French? They did lend a hand here.

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Monday, July 11, 2011 7:36 AM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

H-W

Every 'reasonable' assumption - some of which you espoused - has been wrong --- they won't melt down; well, only a little; but not all of them; they won't go critical; they won't explode; it's only hydrogen; it's not nearly as bad as Chernobyl; the contamination won't go far; no one will get hurt; the Japanese are on top of it; the IAEA will fix this up; they'll be able to stop this; the seawater is OK; ... etc.

You'd think with a track record like that, rather than trust the official voices of 'reasonableness' you'd start to think a little bit more for yourself. Other people have seen the pattern and concluded the official voices of 'reasonableness' are either stupid, or lying. Other people have seen that the response has been far, far behind the curve and were calling, and are calling, for effective (what you might call drastic) action.

The pressure vessel is centimeters of steel. If the corium is going to melt it, why would the containment vessel which is only millimeters of steel fare any better? Cesium levels are still high

indicating ongoing fissioning indicating the corium is still concentrated and molten. Why would the concrete fare any better than the containment vessel?

Fukushima is a disaster that didn't just happen and quit, and now all there's left is the cleanup. No, it a continuing melt-down, and melt through, burrowing towards a melt-out.

Are the people who say so alarmists?

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Monday, July 11, 2011 1:03 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:

Also, did we really have to make a jab at the French? They did lend a hand here.

Who made a jab at the French?

HW posted

Quote:
You know, after Chernobyl the armored, remote controlled robots that were needed there were designed. EVERYONE but the FRENCH declined to build them. The French sent a couple to Fukushima, not sure if they were sold or loaned. My money's on sold. Pretty sad when the French are better prepared for a worst case scenario than everybody else. Then again, the French get most of their power from nukes, so it isn't that surprising.

... which doesn't strike me as a jab, so much as a recognition that they did what nobody else seemed willing or able to do, because they realize they may well face the same problem some day. There might be a slight jab at them in the "pretty sad that they're the best prepared" angle, but I read it as just a remark on how shitty the whole industry is, when the French government represents the apex of it.

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Monday, July 11, 2011 1:09 PM

Quote:
There might be a slight jab at them in the "pretty sad that they're the best prepared" angle, but I read it as just a remark on how shitty the whole industry is, when the French government represents the apex of it.

That's the one.

I'm not sure if HW was saying it's sad because the French shouldn't have been prepared (didn't build robots) but were more prepared than the Japanese, or if it was a general comment on French planning and dealing with crises, popular in America since WW2.

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Monday, July 11, 2011 1:31 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
Quote:
There might be a slight jab at them in the "pretty sad that they're the best prepared" angle, but I read it as just a remark on how shitty the whole industry is, when the French government represents the apex of it.

That's the one.

I'm not sure if HW was saying it's sad because the French shouldn't have been prepared (didn't build robots) but were more prepared than the Japanese, or if it was a general comment on French planning and dealing with crises, popular in America since WW2.

Which would be funny, if the U.S. had any better record of winning wars since then...

Korea: Stalemate.
Viet Nam: Lost. Badly.
Gulf War Episode I: Stalemate.
Gulf War Episode II (The Clone of the Attack): Hmmmmm...
Afghanistan: Well, we've been there longer than the Russians were, and about as long as we were in 'Nam (U.S. combat troops have been in Afghanistan longer than they were in 'Nam), but we haven't really seemed to have closed the deal...

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Monday, July 11, 2011 2:42 PM