If students fail history, does it matter? by NewOldBrownCoat

If history means just a set of dates and names that you can reel off at will, then I would say who cares. You can check facts - there surely has to be more to learning than that. But if you mean understand how we got where we are today and have some understanding of what how our ancestors lived and the events that shaped the world as it is today and an understanding of past cultures and how they differed from our own, then I'd say history was pretty important.

Dates and names ....not so much.

NB I got 9 outa 10 and I aint even a yank!!!

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Friday, July 29, 2011 1:46 AM

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)

10/10.

Mags, I'm impressed! I'm fair certain I couldn't do 9/10 on an Aussie history quiz!

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Friday, July 29, 2011 4:56 AM

Magons, you got 9 out of 10 because you're obviously an educated, intelligent woman.

And Kwicko is right: if asked about Australian history, I'd get about 1 out of 10.

Hell, asked about British history, most Americans would get King Arthur, Robin Hood, Winston Churchhill, and Charles and Di, and William and Kate, and, with the current bunch, Maggie Thatcher.

Now, ya ask me, I'd get some of the kings and Queens, mostly the Shakespearean ones, and Elizabeth I and Victoria, and a couple of guys like Disraeli, but not his opponent or what he stood for,

Most of your points about failing history are exactly the points in the article, and I agree with them and you.

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Friday, July 29, 2011 6:08 AM

KPO

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.

I got 10, but with a fair few educated guesses.

But yeah a lot of the harder answers were deductible, even Sarah Palin could get 6 or 7 on this test...

It's not personal. It's just war.

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Friday, July 29, 2011 6:49 AM

STORYMARK

9/10.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

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Friday, July 29, 2011 7:05 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by kpo:
I got 10, but with a fair few educated guesses.

But yeah a lot of the harder answers were deductible, even Sarah Palin could get 6 or 7 on this test...

It's not personal. It's just war.

I went back to check this. The tests are given in the 4th, 8th and 12th grades. The questions on the test are taken from all of the versions. SO Sarah is smarter that a 4th grader, and maybe an 8th grader, but maybe not so much more. I'm not surprised.

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Friday, July 29, 2011 7:19 AM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

I also agree with Magons, and with NewOld's reason why she scored so high. We're taught little about any other country except England, and even that is sketchy. I knew more about England with respect to the monarchies because for fun I spent one summer checking books out of the library and following the history of the monarchy. But I've forgotten most of it by now!

I got my 9 out of 10 the same way as KPO, with some educated guesses. The "educated" is the pertinent part, because if we know some, logic can answer others.

I have my doubts as to whether Sarah (or, gawd forbid, Michelle!) could manage 6 out of 7--remember that's "educated" guesses!

I am aghast at how little the "man on the street" knows about our own history, from clips I've seen. Especially geography, of all things...asked where some countries are, so many of them didn't know that it left me with my jaw on the ground. And I think what most people "know" is, as mentioned, more fairy tales and myths than actual history. Education in this country has gone to hell since I was in school (1962-66), it never ceases to make me sad.

Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off

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Friday, July 29, 2011 7:23 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up

If students fail history, they are doomed to repeat it.

Oh, 10/10

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Friday, July 29, 2011 7:33 AM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

The article is interesting and further affirmed my sadness:

Quote:
But a summertime visit there backed up recent test results that showed the majority of U.S. students don't know the most basic facts about the country's history -- Lincoln and all.

Test results released in June showed that fewer than one quarter of all students are "proficient" in American history

Many of the fourth grade students asked about Lincoln on the tests could identify him, but few could say why he was an important president.

At the memorial in Washington, students who saw the president's image on a postcard identified the tall, bearded man as Lincoln. When asked why the 16th president was important, some answers were spot-on, some were entertaining -- and some were disheartening.

One student said he was important because he had a beard.

Another said he was killed at a puppet show.

.....

Some wonder whether schools should focus on history at all, when the ability to recall historic facts or themes might not help students land certain jobs later on.

But others say knowing how we came to our current way of life is always essential.

As another presidential election season approaches, knowledge of U.S. history is invaluable, according to Diane Ravitch, a New York University research professor of education.

"All of these students will be voters... and almost 40% were already eligible to vote when they took the assessment," Ravitch said in a statement released after the results of the study were published. "They will be making decisions in the voting booth that influence our lives. They should be well informed and capable of weighing the contending claims of candidates, especially when the candidates rest their arguments on historical precedent."

.....

"Nobody is doing anything to fix it," Fitzhugh said. "History informs the present with lessons from the past and if you don't do any history than you are exploring without any background. ... Students are very smart about the way they spend their time and if they don't have to spend their time doing history they'll spend their time doing something else."

.....

"They really should try and find the fun that's present in learning history," said incoming Harvard College freshman Tianhao He, a student who was published in The Concord Review. "When it comes down to it, history is all about people, and people like us who have shaped this nation's history."

I agree with all of that. It also has a link to another article which gives some explanations as to why so few know history:

Quote:
High school students' lack of a historical knowledge base can partially be explained by the decrease in class time spent on social studies at the elementary level. History is not an area that requires testing under the federal No Child Left Behind Act, so it often gets shortchanged, teachers said.

"In a lot of districts, social studies and science have been removed from the curriculum, per se, because of math and language arts testing," said Gayla Hammer of South Elementary School in Lander, Wyoming.

To help mitigate the problem, Hammer and other teachers said, they use social studies texts within their reading lessons, because reading skills will appear on standardized tests.

Beverly Fanelli, a fifth-grade teacher at Fox Elementary School in Macomb, Michigan, said she approaches social studies as informational reading so she can work it into her language arts curriculum.

"Because we have so much to do and only so much time, wherever we have overlap, I will," she said.

"The only issue that I have with what I teach is, I wish I had time to go deeper," Tarboro High school civics and economics teacher Leshaun Jenkins said.

It's a complaint repeated by other history educators, who must balance "trivia" with larger concepts.

When Plonski teaches the Jimmy Carter administration, he said, he covers the 1978 Camp David Accords, considered to be a major stepping stone to peace in the Middle East. He also teaches about the 1978 deregulation of the airlines, although it's information he believes his students will never need in the future.

He said he shortchanges his lecture on the accords because of North Carolina's recommendation that he also cover the airlines.

"You have to take away time from the bigger topics in order to make sure you cover small details, just because they could appear on the state exam," Plonski said.

World history teacher Troy Hammon of Arsenal Technical High School in Indianapolis, Indiana, said he is constantly weighing how much "trivia" he teaches, like names, dates and places, and when to try to help his students relive history.

For example, Hammon had his students take on the roles of individuals who may have taken part in the Crusades of the Middle Ages. The students then answered questions based on their knowledge of that time. Hammon believes this helps his students better understand the Middle Ages.

http://www.cnn.com/2011/LIVING/01/18/history.teachers.solutions/index.
html

So hey, let's cut the education budgets even MORE, so they have to cram more students into classes with less time to teach anything but the "skills" needed to get a job. We might as well have nothing but (what do they call those training systems that specifically address only, say, motorcycle repair? I can't think of the term). There's your "well rounded" Americans, yes indeed!

Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off

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Friday, July 29, 2011 8:29 AM

Vocational, I believe is the word you're looking for, Niki.

Honestly, given the monstrous distortions, lies and heaps of downright bullshit we teach as "history" in our public schools these days anyways, I don't see how whether or not a student can spout the official revisionist-propaganda on command is any indicator of anything beyond obedience and rote memorization anyways - besides which our educational model is terribly flawed because if a student sees a situation differently, takes a different message from it, or has a different interpretation, they are punished for it no matter how eloquently and effectively they can articulate their understanding.

That's not education, that's indoctrination.

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

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Friday, July 29, 2011 3:56 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by kpo:
I got 10, but with a fair few educated guesses.

But yeah a lot of the harder answers were deductible, even Sarah Palin could get 6 or 7 on this test...

It's not personal. It's just war.

Just as long as none of them were about Paul Revere...

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Friday, July 29, 2011 3:57 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Geezer:
If students fail history, they are doomed to repeat it.

Nice!

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Friday, July 29, 2011 4:21 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
10/10.

Mags, I'm impressed! I'm fair certain I couldn't do 9/10 on an Aussie history quiz!

You can try, if you like. I got 18 out of 20 on this one, although some of them seem more like comprehension questions rather than history. Dumb and dumber.

http://www4.boardofstudies.nsw.edu.au/course/school-certificate/austra
lian-history-civics-and-citizenship/

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Friday, July 29, 2011 5:19 PM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up

Quote:
Originally posted by Magonsdaughter:
You can try, if you like. I got 18 out of 20 on this one, although some of them seem more like comprehension questions rather than history. Dumb and dumber.

Link didn't take me to the test. Had to finagle a bit and came up with http://www4.boardofstudies.nsw.edu.au/bostest.cfm?testID=12631342&test
UUID=790D7B7E-9BA1-EA41-58F46A0B0041C614&courseID=5040&CFID=1079148&CFTOKEN=31346832&jsessionid=4630fb3f8ecbf309e84d631d5d3974425d56

15 of 20.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Friday, July 29, 2011 5:46 PM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Dunno my score, lost the link, but yes, a lot of it was logical reasoning--read something, check the box (circle) that relates back to what you read. A lot of the stuff that wasn't reasoning, I had no hope of getting.

Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off

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Friday, July 29, 2011 6:03 PM

"Now loading - 0%"

Seems to not be compatible with my browser. I'll have to try it with a different browser at another time.

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Friday, July 29, 2011 6:18 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Magonsdaughter:
Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
10/10.

Mags, I'm impressed! I'm fair certain I couldn't do 9/10 on an Aussie history quiz!

You can try, if you like. I got 18 out of 20 on this one, although some of them seem more like comprehension questions rather than history. Dumb and dumber.

http://www4.boardofstudies.nsw.edu.au/course/school-certificate/austra
lian-history-civics-and-citizenship/

took the test, 20 questions, but the server wouldn't respond with my score. 2 of the 20 I did not answer, I know I didn't know enough to make an intelligent choice, it would have been a random guess, so I forfeited those. About another 5 or 6, I was able to make a reasonably logical guess about. I was pretty confident about the rest. SO i did better than I thought I would.

The test DID seem to be more about comprehension, as someone suggested, rather than actual knowledge, and did seem to have an ideological bias, what even I would say is a leftist/ liberal slant-- The TPers and right wingers here in America would have a stronger opinion on that subject. But I read it as pro-aborigineal rights, ridiculing anti-communism, and opposing British imperialism and colonialism. Stuff like that here in the USA would be accused of being "anti-white" by the TPers.

I mean no offense by my remarks, and no criticism, but that's what I inferred by reading the test.

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Friday, July 29, 2011 6:57 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Geezer:
Quote:
Originally posted by Magonsdaughter:
You can try, if you like. I got 18 out of 20 on this one, although some of them seem more like comprehension questions rather than history. Dumb and dumber.

Link didn't take me to the test. Had to finagle a bit and came up with http://www4.boardofstudies.nsw.edu.au/bostest.cfm?testID=12631342&
testUUID=790D7B7E-9BA1-EA41-58F46A0B0041C614&courseID=5040&CFID=1079148&CFTOKEN=31346832&jsessionid=4630fb3f8ecbf309e84d631d5d3974425d56

15 of 20.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

Awesome. You've probably done better than most Aussies would.

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Friday, July 29, 2011 7:02 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by NewOldBrownCoat:
Quote:
Originally posted by Magonsdaughter:
Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
10/10.

Mags, I'm impressed! I'm fair certain I couldn't do 9/10 on an Aussie history quiz!

You can try, if you like. I got 18 out of 20 on this one, although some of them seem more like comprehension questions rather than history. Dumb and dumber.

http://www4.boardofstudies.nsw.edu.au/course/school-certificate/austra
lian-history-civics-and-citizenship/

took the test, 20 questions, but the server wouldn't respond with my score. 2 of the 20 I did not answer, I know I didn't know enough to make an intelligent choice, it would have been a random guess, so I forfeited those. About another 5 or 6, I was able to make a reasonably logical guess about. I was pretty confident about the rest. SO i did better than I thought I would.

The test DID seem to be more about comprehension, as someone suggested, rather than actual knowledge, and did seem to have an ideological bias, what even I would say is a leftist/ liberal slant-- The TPers and right wingers here in America would have a stronger opinion on that subject. But I read it as pro-aborigineal rights, ridiculing anti-communism, and opposing British imperialism and colonialism. Stuff like that here in the USA would be accused of being "anti-white" by the TPers.

I mean no offense by my remarks, and no criticism, but that's what I inferred by reading the test.

Interesting comments. We've had the history wars here as well. I didn't see it in the same way, but then maybe I'm a bit of a lefty. Which bits did you think ridiculed anti communism? The domino theory was very real for us when I was growing up, the fear that countries in Asia would fall like dominoes to communism. I saw those things as a statement of fact.

Basically, there isn't really much drama in our history, no civil wars, few uprisings, no overthrowing governments or great heroics which has made it a pretty nice place to live unless you were Aboriginal. Those issues around Aborignial rights and land status havereally been key elements of our history.

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Saturday, July 30, 2011 1:51 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Magonsdaughter:

Interesting comments. We've had the history wars here as well. I didn't see it in the same way, but then maybe I'm a bit of a lefty. Which bits did you think ridiculed anti communism? The domino theory was very real for us when I was growing up, the fear that countries in Asia would fall like dominoes to communism. I saw those things as a statement of fact.

Mostly that bit- the domino theory was big here in 1965, but has been discredited since the fall of Saigon in '75. So, in hindsight, it's ridiculous, and has to have been a cover story and fear mongering tactic. I haven't even heard it MENTIONED since then, it's one of those wrong, bad ideas we'd rather forget, now that we support Veteran's tourism to Vietnam, and they (and the Red commie Chinese) are trade partners of ours, manufacturing stuff we don't want to make here, buying our stuff, and buying our Treasury bonds.
And sorry again if I offended you- the feelings you had growing up were real, in their time, and scary. But that bad stuff didn't happen-- and now we're selling them our store, for short term gain.
( Oh, and I'm a lefty, too, in case you hadn't figured that out. An older school, pre-1968 lefty.)

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Saturday, July 30, 2011 2:06 AM

Oh no offence taken. Always good to get another perspective.

History is important, in answer to your first question. But it should be about questions, rather than answers. IMO. Did you answer the question yourself?

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Saturday, July 30, 2011 3:36 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!

10 for 10.

" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Saturday, July 30, 2011 6:58 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Magonsdaughter:
Oh no offence taken. Always good to get another perspective.

History is important, in answer to your first question. But it should be about questions, rather than answers. IMO. Did you answer the question yourself?

I wrote a beautiful reply yesterday, on the difference between objective history and interpretive history. The central point was Simon Tam's quote about "winners programming history" , using Pearl Harbor as an example. Positioned myself somewhere between you and Kwicko.
And somewhere between clicking the "Post My Response" button and the "Go back" arrow, it vanished. Hasta be something I did, not a bug in the website. But it's gone, and it was so perfect, and there's no way I can re-create it. If I can get over the trauma, and recreate my mood, I MUST try to rewrite it and post it. Y'all deserve it.

'course history is important. "Those that don't learn from it are doomed to repeat it." We see that every day, in Iraq & Afghanistan; in the Tea Party here; ( not sure where you see it in Australia, Fosters vs Bundaberg?

Little joke there, to prove I know something obscure about the place, even if that's all I know.); in the financial crisis.
And the only tool we have to fight with is smarts, and studying history and learning from it makes us smarter. If so-and-so tried THIS, in our situation, and it didn't work, then we need to start with thinking about trying THAT, stead of wasting time.
More later, this is important. but Mrs BC is calling me to go to breakfast.

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Saturday, July 30, 2011 7:24 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by NewOldBrownCoat:

I wrote a beautiful reply yesterday, on the difference between objective history and interpretive history. The central point was Simon Tam's quote about "winners programming history" , using Pearl Harbor as an example. Positioned myself somewhere between you and Kwicko.
And somewhere between clicking the "Post My Response" button and the "Go back" arrow, it vanished. Hasta be something I did, not a bug in the website. But it's gone, and it was so perfect, and there's no way I can re-create it. If I can get over the trauma, and recreate my mood, I MUST try to rewrite it and post it. Y'all deserve it.

'course history is important. "Those that don't learn from it are doomed to repeat it." We see that every day, in Iraq & Afghanistan; in the Tea Party here; ( not sure where you see it in Australia, Fosters vs Bundaberg? Little joke there, to prove I know something obscure about the place, even if that's all I know.); in the financial crisis.
And the only tool we have to fight with is smarts, and studying history and learning from it makes us smarter. If so-and-so tried THIS, in our situation, and it didn't work, then we need to start with thinking about trying THAT, stead of wasting time.
More later, this is important. but Mrs BC is calling me to go to breakfast.

I hate it when that happens. Makes you wonder if the lost replies float around cyberspace somewhere. Maybe they gather....

I hear what you are saying loud and clear. We're experiencing similar things here, although on a different scale. And all too often, its stupidity that wins the day. The idiot who shouts the loudest and the rudest gets air time and attention, and polite reason, science, evidence, experience all go by the wayside.

Fosters is a beer and Bundaberg is rum. You are not far off the mark in terms of the culture wars that go on, although it is more likely to be Chardonnay vs Bundaberg. 'Chardonnay sipping socialist' is actually a derisive term that I've had used against me. As opposed to the 'Bundy and Coke brigade' that live all around me.

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Saturday, July 30, 2011 8:02 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Magonsdaughter:
Quote:
Originally posted by NewOldBrownCoat:

I wrote a beautiful reply yesterday, on the difference between objective history and interpretive history. The central point was Simon Tam's quote about "winners programming history" , using Pearl Harbor as an example. Positioned myself somewhere between you and Kwicko.
And somewhere between clicking the "Post My Response" button and the "Go back" arrow, it vanished. Hasta be something I did, not a bug in the website. But it's gone, and it was so perfect, and there's no way I can re-create it. If I can get over the trauma, and recreate my mood, I MUST try to rewrite it and post it. Y'all deserve it.

'course history is important. "Those that don't learn from it are doomed to repeat it." We see that every day, in Iraq & Afghanistan; in the Tea Party here; ( not sure where you see it in Australia, Fosters vs Bundaberg? Little joke there, to prove I know something obscure about the place, even if that's all I know.); in the financial crisis.
And the only tool we have to fight with is smarts, and studying history and learning from it makes us smarter. If so-and-so tried THIS, in our situation, and it didn't work, then we need to start with thinking about trying THAT, stead of wasting time.
More later, this is important. but Mrs BC is calling me to go to breakfast.

I hate it when that happens. Makes you wonder if the lost replies float around cyberspace somewhere. Maybe they gather....

Everything goes somewhere... and I go everywhere. :)

Quote:

I hear what you are saying loud and clear. We're experiencing similar things here, although on a different scale. And all too often, its stupidity that wins the day. The idiot who shouts the loudest and the rudest gets air time and attention, and polite reason, science, evidence, experience all go by the wayside.

Speaking of which, y'all (well, SOME of y'all - the smart ones!) will get a bit of a kick out of this:

http://mediamatters.org/mmtv/201107280007

Fox anchor asks Bill Nye the Science Guy if volcanoes on the Moon mean that global warming isn't happening on Earth. You can almost see Nye's flabbergastedness, as if he's thinking, "How did your brain even learn human speech?!"

Quote:

Fosters is a beer and Bundaberg is rum. You are not far off the mark in terms of the culture wars that go on, although it is more likely to be Chardonnay vs Bundaberg. 'Chardonnay sipping socialist' is actually a derisive term that I've had used against me. As opposed to the 'Bundy and Coke brigade' that live all around me.

What if I like all of the above? I'd call that a balanced diet.

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Saturday, July 30, 2011 10:43 AM

Oh that's not the HALF of it Mikey, and your co-habitors are guilty of even worse stupidity.

http://www.examiner.com/skepticism-in-national/just-shoot-me-some-walk
-out-on-bill-nye-for-saying-moon-reflects-light

Quote:
Bill Nye "The Science Guy" was booed in Waco, Texas in 2006 for suggesting the Moon did not generate its own light, but reflected light from the sun.

Also, as I understand it, he's been excommunicated, which amuses me in that how do they think such is possible for someone never catholic in the first place ?

That reminds me of a funny bit between Rev, the guy who the army tried to prosecute for "witchcraft" and his units chaplain.

Quote:
Okay, I'll meet you outside.
Why, afraid your church is gonna catch fire if I step through the door ?
With YOU I would not discount the possibility!

Then again, this *IS* a guy who made wind chimes out of mortar shells and trained a bear to shake down officers for food, sooo....

-Frem
I do not serve the Blind God.

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Saturday, July 30, 2011 2:41 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
Oh that's not the HALF of it Mikey, and your co-habitors are guilty of even worse stupidity.

http://www.examiner.com/skepticism-in-national/just-shoot-me-some-walk
-out-on-bill-nye-for-saying-moon-reflects-light
Quote:
Bill Nye "The Science Guy" was booed in Waco, Texas in 2006 for suggesting the Moon did not generate its own light, but reflected light from the sun.

I'd like to offer a statewide facepalm on behalf of the entire state of Texas...

Quote:

Also, as I understand it, he's been excommunicated, which amuses me in that how do they think such is possible for someone never catholic in the first place ?

Yeah, they threatened to excommunicate me once, but I told 'em I'd already given up Catholicism for Lent!

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Sunday, July 31, 2011 7:00 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:

Speaking of which, y'all (well, SOME of y'all - the smart ones!) will get a bit of a kick out of this:

http://mediamatters.org/mmtv/201107280007

Fox anchor asks Bill Nye the Science Guy if volcanoes on the Moon mean that global warming isn't happening on Earth. You can almost see Nye's flabbergastedness, as if he's thinking, "How did your brain even learn human speech?!"

Jeez, you can hear it in Bill Nye's voice: "Boy, I'm glad I used to do a science show for KIDS. 'Cuz I hafta dumb EVEN THAT down for THIS guy."

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Wednesday, August 3, 2011 1:30 PM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht

History is and was my very favorite academic subject in school. I discovered my interest in history at age eight and discovered history documentaries at age 11 and was utterly fascinated. I love learning about it all and I think that a basic understanding of where we came from and how to learn from it is essential for a well rounded and educated person. Its embarassing how bad kids are at history now, and even more embarassing how bad adults are at it.

Bill Nye was sort of a cool show, my dad loved it, got all excited when it came on and he saw that I was watching it. He always liked to watch our shows with us which was pretty cool because my mother never had any interest in what I was into as a kid, or now for that matter, but that's okay.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

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Thursday, August 4, 2011 9:03 AM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Riona, me too--next to English, which I always adored. Tho' conquerors write history, a lot can still be gained from it if we use our own brains. Just like doctors/psychiatrists; I consider them a kind of library of information I don't have to hand, but interpreted through THEIR subjectivity. I take the info and look around to see if I think it's valid or not.

I think it holds true for EVERYTHING; no one source has it all, and if we really care about the "truth" (whatever it may be), it's up to us to take what we're given, then ferret out for ourselves how much of it is accurate. Even then....

Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off

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Thursday, August 4, 2011 3:49 PM

Perhaps, but when your grade, and access to those all-important credentials(1) DEPENDS on your ability to spout the official party line no matter how untrue it is...

That discourages learning the truth, cause it sends the strong message that truth doesn't matter, obedience does - more than once I got docked on stuff for giving an ACCURATE, rather than officially-approved, answer to something - in the same way that having a different opinion or viewpoint of a literary work(2) will get your grade tanked by those who hold power over you.

I *do* think history is important, cause it shows the patterns of lies this Government has used since its debateably illegal conception, and shows beyond doubt the harm those lies cause.

But when children are taught to learn, accept and regurgitate on command those lies on penalty of their ability to progress within our education-indoctrination system, it turns them off learning history, and really, against learning in general.

(1) You know, for all the effort I put into making sure I had one, all the loopholes exploited and lame bullshit I hadda put up with to get it - NOT ONE FUCKING EMPLOYER HAS EVER EVEN ASKED TO SEE IT.
Which bothers me in that I could simply have lied about it, and left YEARS before then, save for dodging the Truancy and Curfew Cops, which I hadda do anyways - but still, what was the point of it all ?

(2) The most clear case in question was actually something my Ex related to me not long ago, in that she was FAILED because in *her* opinion, Machiavellis "The Prince" was written and intended as Satire, rather than a serious work, which I think is entirely possible and as valid a viewpoint on it as any other - he coulda been doin his centuries version of "The Evil Overlord List", in a snarky kinda way.

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

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Friday, August 5, 2011 2:35 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up

Quote:
Originally posted by NewOldBrownCoat:
I wrote a beautiful reply yesterday, on the difference between objective history and interpretive history. The central point was Simon Tam's quote about "winners programming history" , using Pearl Harbor as an example. Positioned myself somewhere between you and Kwicko.
And somewhere between clicking the "Post My Response" button and the "Go back" arrow, it vanished. Hasta be something I did, not a bug in the website.

I think that if you don't take any action on the site for several minutes, like when you're composing a long reply or looking up references in another window, it sort'a times you out and will drop your message when you submit it. Then you have to re-login and submit it again. I always copy my response now before hitting "Post My Response". Saves a lot of frustration.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Friday, August 5, 2011 5:01 AM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Never had that happen to me, Geezer, so I dunno...and come to think of it, I left a post in mid-posting and went and walked the dogs, and it was still here when I got back.

BUT, I work in Word a LOT if I'm going to look for cites or it'll be long or addressed to several people or something, 'cuz I've lost 'em too for numerous other reasons. I got sick of it, so this works for me. I'm sorry you lost it, I'd have liked to read it.

Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off

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Friday, August 5, 2011 5:51 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Geezer:
Quote:
Originally posted by NewOldBrownCoat:
I wrote a beautiful reply yesterday, on the difference between objective history and interpretive history. The central point was Simon Tam's quote about "winners programming history" , using Pearl Harbor as an example. Positioned myself somewhere between you and Kwicko.
And somewhere between clicking the "Post My Response" button and the "Go back" arrow, it vanished. Hasta be something I did, not a bug in the website.

I think that if you don't take any action on the site for several minutes, like when you're composing a long reply or looking up references in another window, it sort'a times you out and will drop your message when you submit it. Then you have to re-login and submit it again. I always copy my response now before hitting "Post My Response". Saves a lot of frustration.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

Yeah, I'm resolved to copy everything to Notepad (I'm an old school guy, that's what I use for online posting, plain old ASCII text.) and save it before I try to post it. Now alll I gotta do is follow through.

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Friday, August 5, 2011 7:26 AM

Sounds like Geezer must have ranks and rows of file cabinets filled with minutiae, don't it?

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Friday, August 5, 2011 2:31 PM