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REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS
Myth : You cannot reduce the deficit to an appropriate level without also raising taxes.
Sunday, July 31, 2011 4:50 AM
AURAPTOR
America loves a winner!
Sunday, July 31, 2011 5:00 AM
M52NICKERSON
DALEK!
Sunday, July 31, 2011 5:09 AM
Sunday, July 31, 2011 5:25 AM
Sunday, July 31, 2011 5:47 AM
Quote: One, you have not come close to showing how reducing the deficit helps the economy.
Quote: Two, increase revenues in some ways will not stop or slow economic growth. To deep of cuts in programs will.
Sunday, July 31, 2011 8:32 AM
KWICKO
"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)
Sunday, July 31, 2011 8:34 AM
Sunday, July 31, 2011 8:38 AM
Quote:Originally posted by AURaptor: Last point first, as it's irrelevant to the discussion at hand. I'm not 'conceding' anything, just stating that, while it may be of trivial interest to get into such a debate, I haven't the time or desire to follow down that rabbit hole. A mostly homogeneous society, contrasted with a far larger, far more diverse group of people, it's apples and oranges. That's all I'll say on that matter.
Quote:Sorry, this is basic economics. Look around. Read and pay attention. Lowering of the nation's credit rating is what's at stake here.
Quote:" In some ways " ? What's that even suppose to mean ? We're dealing w/ real world issues here, and you're dabbling in 'would of, could of '. The stimulus failed. Miserably. Don't take my word for it...
DREAMTROVE
Sunday, July 31, 2011 9:00 AM
Sunday, July 31, 2011 9:05 AM
Sunday, July 31, 2011 12:07 PM
Sunday, July 31, 2011 12:33 PM
LILI
Doing it backwards. Walking up the downslide.
Sunday, July 31, 2011 12:40 PM
KANEMAN
Quote:Originally posted by m52nickerson: One, you have not come close to showing how reducing the deficit helps the economy. Two, increase revenues in some ways will not stop or slow economic growth. To deep of cuts in programs will. Three, since you think it is a non-issue I will take it that you are conceding. I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.
Sunday, July 31, 2011 1:03 PM
Quote:Originally posted by LiLi: Yes, I think a great deal of money could be saved if we pulled all our troops out of the 200+ countries they're hanging around in. Maintaining those presences has to be expensive. Oh, wait, that's not allowed, is it?
Sunday, July 31, 2011 1:04 PM
KPO
Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.
Quote:The stimulus failed. Miserably. Don't take my word for it...
Sunday, July 31, 2011 1:14 PM
Quote:Well, if you lower the deficit by reducing spending...you stop the FED from printing money
Sunday, July 31, 2011 1:16 PM
FREMDFIRMA
Quote:Originally posted by AURaptor: We, the PEOPLE, seems to agree on this, at least some what. And yet, whether Dems or Republicans are in charge in D.C., not much ever gets done. Why is that ?
Sunday, July 31, 2011 1:23 PM
Quote:Originally posted by kpo: Quote:The stimulus failed. Miserably. Don't take my word for it... What you're quoting relates to the Fed's Quantative Easing (QE) program - NOT Obama's stimulus package. Just so we're clear. Obama's stimulus has undoubtedly saved jobs and increased GDP in the short run. Economists disagree by how much. I don't know that I would say the Stimulus has 'failed', but it's definitely not been as effective as hoped for. And of course many economists think it should have been bigger. It's not personal. It's just war.
Sunday, July 31, 2011 1:34 PM
Quote:Originally posted by kaneman: Well, if you lower the deficit by reducing spending...you stop the FED from printing money, thus slowing inflation(which is a tax on lower and middle class families)...Bang. Simply put. One + one = two
Sunday, July 31, 2011 1:38 PM
Quote:Originally posted by AURaptor: But the point I'm trying to make is, that the stimulus, as you agree, failed to bring us the 'summer of recovery' in '10 and '11, which was so gloriously predicted. Most of the $ went to a few, likely undeserving areas, and the rest of it was basically flushed down the toilet. And that which did help... at what cost ?
Quote:Originally posted by Kwicko: Ben Stein, noted conservative pundit, had an interesting take on it this morning on CBS: http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id=7375118n&tag=contentMain;contentBody "Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill
Sunday, July 31, 2011 1:49 PM
Quote:Most of the $ went to a few, likely undeserving areas, and the rest of it was basically flushed down the toilet.
Sunday, July 31, 2011 4:57 PM
Quote:Originally posted by m52nickerson: Quote:Originally posted by kaneman: Well, if you lower the deficit by reducing spending...you stop the FED from printing money, thus slowing inflation(which is a tax on lower and middle class families)...Bang. Simply put. One + one = two Well except for the fact that we have not had high inflation rates for many, many years. In fact the danger at the beginning of the crisis was deflation not inflation. I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.
Sunday, July 31, 2011 5:24 PM
Sunday, July 31, 2011 8:00 PM
Monday, August 1, 2011 5:29 AM
Quote:Originally posted by m52nickerson: For the most part I think Mr. Stein hits the nail on the head. I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.
Monday, August 1, 2011 5:34 AM
Monday, August 1, 2011 6:42 AM
Quote:Originally posted by dreamtrove: I generally think Ben Stein is a dick, but I'm listening now. This guy blames evolution for the holocaust
Monday, August 1, 2011 6:55 AM
Quote:Originally posted by m52nickerson: Well that money went to someone, they most likely spent it at least some of it, so explain to me how the money was "flushed down the toilet". ....plus remember that hindsight is always 20/20.
Monday, August 1, 2011 7:23 AM
Quote:Originally posted by AURaptor: Ben's right, of course. Sorta. Clinton left us in good shape, had things stayed more or less the same. But that rarely happens in the real world. The dot com bubble burst, the attacks of 9/11, the two resulting wars AND the sub prime crisis , caused almost entirely by the Dems, are what happens in the REAL world.
Quote:Supply side economics does work, but it needs prudent, sensible spending to go along w/ the tax cuts for the achievers. Had Congress been able to wisely spend our money, and not run up the credit bill to the moon and back, we'd be in damn good shape.
Quote:The morons in D.C., from both parties, have been kicking the can down the road, gettin' theirs while the getting is good. This latest plan does pretty much more of the same. PROMISES of spending cuts which future Congresses aren't in the least bit obligated to follow. Looks fine on paper, but in the REAL world, it's crap.
Quote:The only advances we have on this issue are that which the TEA party has demanded. With out them, we may very well be toast. ( still might be anyways, but at least they're giving us a chance )
Monday, August 1, 2011 7:25 AM
Quote:Originally posted by AURaptor: Money flushed down a toilet refers to needless, pointless projects which end up costing us more than they contribute back. Building a bridge to no where, or an airport which isn't needed and rarely has any flights. Those are examples of how our govt wastes our money. Sure, you get a bunch of construction and a finished project ( hopefully ) but then what ? If they result in some how generating more business and tax revenue, then fine. But if not, they're just white elephants. Useless , one time flurry of spending, which then ends up being a tax DRAIN, for maintenance and staffing costs, with out paying for themselves. And it's not hindsight when folks warn you in advance. Same goes for ObamaCare. It's a disaster, and will end up costing this country big time, unless we can erase that mistake in the next election.
Monday, August 1, 2011 7:32 AM
Quote:Originally posted by m52nickerson: Even that money helps that economy, it still puts money in peoples pockets because people are needed to build those useless projects. Also Heath Care Reform will save money, until you have a better source then the Congressional Budget Office your wrong. I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.
Monday, August 1, 2011 7:36 AM
SIGNYM
I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.
Monday, August 1, 2011 7:50 AM
Quote:Originally posted by AURaptor: It didn't help the economy, and that's the point you're refusing to acknowledge. Those useless projects are built, folks are paid, and then the job is done. Those folks stop getting paid. It's like the " 100,000" cops lie , during the Clinton years. Fed $ was given , for a time. Then, when that $ ran out, there were lay offs because the local govts couldn't continue to pay for all those they had hired. There was no recovery. It only has made matters worse. No massive govt program has EVER saved this country any money, and yes, the scoring by the CBO is wrong. Sorry. " I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "
Monday, August 1, 2011 7:56 AM
Monday, August 1, 2011 8:57 AM
Monday, August 1, 2011 9:36 AM
1KIKI
Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.
Monday, August 1, 2011 10:46 AM
Quote:Originally posted by m52nickerson: If the Tea Party get what they want we will still be a nation, a third world one, but still a nation. I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.
Monday, August 1, 2011 10:58 AM
Quote:Originally posted by 1kiki: There's no arguing facts with (c)Rappy. Worse than them simply bouncing off the rim, facts only make his delusions stronger.original)
Quote: There are also some cases where directness works. Kuklinski’s welfare study suggested that people will actually update their beliefs if you hit them “between the eyes” with bluntly presented, objective facts that contradict their preconceived ideas.
Monday, August 1, 2011 11:47 AM
NIKI2
Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...
Quote: But the point I'm trying to make is, that the stimulus, as you agree, failed to bring us the 'summer of recovery' in '10 and '11, which was so gloriously predicted. Most of the $ went to a few, likely undeserving areas, and the rest of it was basically flushed down the toilet. And that which did help... at what cost ?
Quote: economists say that the president’s $787 billion stimulus package has helped blunt the downturn in limited but discernible ways. A report card on the stimulus plan offered by analysts nearly six months after it was passed by Congress suggests that the punch from increased government spending has helped the economy begin to bottom out faster than it would have otherwise. http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/07/business/economy/07stimulus.html
Quote: Virtually nothing was done while Herbert Hoover was in office from 1928-1932, and Roosevelt didn't assume the presidency until the Great Depression had been underway for almost four years. In Roosevelt’s “First Hundred Days,” he implemented a number of regulations and programs, but problems were so widespread at that point, that it took many more years for the economy to stabilize and recover. http://www.economicstimulusdetails.com/the-great-depression.html
Quote:There are similarities between Great Depression economic crisis and today’s economic crisis: •both were fueled by speculation and leverage-buying (in stocks in the Great Depression, in houses in today’s recession); •both were worsened by bank troubles (from a run on banks in the Great Depression, from a weakening of banks because of poor lending practices in today’s recession); •both were expanded by high unemployment rates, which led to drops in consumer confidence, which led to less purchasing, which led to higher unemployment rates; •both spread to a global crisis, with America’s troubles leading to worldwide troubles and visa versa. The main difference today is that there’s been quicker response and more decisive action. (Same source)
Quote:Now, dealing with the deficit? Just look around and see who else is getting free checks, like banks, oil companies, war profiteers who don't actually supply anything that we use in war, contracting firms who subcontract in toto (Seriously, this is going on: We pay Mr. X $100 billion and he subcontracts his entire contract to Ms. Y for $10 billion, and keeps $90 billion. Why don't we just fire Mr. X and hire Ms. Y?)
Quote: If they result in some how generating more business and tax revenue, then fine. But if not, they're just white elephants. Useless , one time flurry of spending, which then ends up being a tax DRAIN, for maintenance and staffing costs, with out paying for themselves.
Quote: The morons in D.C., from both parties, have been kicking the can down the road, gettin' theirs while the getting is good. This latest plan does pretty much more of the same. PROMISES of spending cuts which future Congresses aren't in the least bit obligated to follow.
Quote: ....simply bounces off their hardened position. You might as well talk to a brick wall. Thus authoritarian followers may really mean it when they say no discoveries or facts could change their beliefs about the important things in life.... They are easily incited, easily led, rather un-inclined to think for themselves, largely impervious to facts and reason, and rely instead on social support to maintain their beliefs.
Monday, August 1, 2011 12:01 PM
Monday, August 1, 2011 12:18 PM
Quote:Originally posted by AURaptor: Money flushed down a toilet refers to needless, pointless projects which end up costing us more than they contribute back.
Monday, August 1, 2011 12:48 PM
Quote:Originally posted by AURaptor: That's what Obama and the Dems want...to fundamentally transform this nation. From a super-power to a 3rd world nation, an also ran. It's what Libs have always (wrongly ) believed, that if the US were less strong, less of a threat, then there'd be less violence and aggression in the world, by terrorists and other countries.
Monday, August 1, 2011 12:57 PM
Quote:Originally posted by AURaptor: I love how Niki continues to ignore me.
Monday, August 1, 2011 1:07 PM
Quote:Originally posted by Fremdfirma: But since you're OKAY with those, what are you bitching about, then ?
Monday, August 1, 2011 1:17 PM
Quote:Originally posted by m52nickerson: Quote:Originally posted by AURaptor: That's what Obama and the Dems want...to fundamentally transform this nation. From a super-power to a 3rd world nation, an also ran. It's what Libs have always (wrongly ) believed, that if the US were less strong, less of a threat, then there'd be less violence and aggression in the world, by terrorists and other countries. Oh, so to save the world they want to make the US a 3rd world nation. Funny, I don't remember that in any of the meetings or pamphlets.
Monday, August 1, 2011 1:22 PM
Quote:Originally posted by AURaptor: Then you weren't paying attention. Look at Obama's back ground, the company that he keeps. From the writings of Saul Alinsky, to the 20 + years in the pews of Rev Wright, to William Ayers... Mr ' At some point, you've made enough money ', who thinks it's up to him to spread the wealth around... as HE sees fit. yeah, how's that workin' out for American so far ?
Monday, August 1, 2011 1:28 PM
Monday, August 1, 2011 1:39 PM
Quote:Originally posted by m52nickerson: Quote:Originally posted by AURaptor: Then you weren't paying attention. Look at Obama's back ground, the company that he keeps. From the writings of Saul Alinsky, to the 20 + years in the pews of Rev Wright, to William Ayers... Mr ' At some point, you've made enough money ', who thinks it's up to him to spread the wealth around... as HE sees fit. yeah, how's that workin' out for American so far ? Perhaps you should read them, instead of listening to what Glen Beck tells you. Who is he to spread the wealth, the President of the United States. I told you before redistribution of wealth is what governments do. Right now it is just going to the rich.
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