REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

I weep for humanity.

POSTED BY: WULFENSTAR
UPDATED: Wednesday, August 10, 2011 06:47
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Monday, August 8, 2011 10:07 AM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg


http://www.salon.com/life/feature/2011/08/07/daughter_political_awaren
ess
/



"Hope is a good thing, maybe the best of things, and no good thing ever dies"




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Monday, August 8, 2011 10:09 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


If the kid is smart, she'll back the TEA party movement.

If not, she'll be a ward of the State, and will never know freedom.


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Monday, August 8, 2011 10:12 AM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg


"If the kid is smart, she'll back the TEA party movement.

If not, she'll be a ward of the State, and will never know freedom." <-----THIS



"Hope is a good thing, maybe the best of things, and no good thing ever dies"



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Monday, August 8, 2011 10:36 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


God forbid my daughter should become like the mean-spirited, greedy, hate-filled bastards we see here.

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Monday, August 8, 2011 10:38 AM

BYTEMITE


Research suggests that Salon.com is a tabloid site, and that this may be a joke article, perhaps similar to an Onion article.

If it is not, then my concern is less about what people believe, and more about the kind of slice of life crap that gets written as "news" these days. What the hell, journalists?

What's next, Little Suzie, 2, draws a "pictcha" and has some "num nums"?

Maybe I should write an article about how I got a bug bite on the side of my neck this morning and submit it. Apparently they'd PAY me.

Though the cult-like influence some parents have on their children is perhaps a valid concern. But maybe that's because of my unique viewpoint where I've always been too stubborn to listen to authority figures.

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Monday, August 8, 2011 11:01 AM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg


If I EVER, EVER, EEEVVVER heard a liberal make a valid point, that could be backed up by real-life experience,

or even something that could be validated BEYOND a "utopian" vision..

I would actually listen. I may actually agree.

But so far. Nothing. Nada.


This woman gives an already idiotic philosophy a bad name.

Should I bring up the "no-hitting" pinatas article?




"Hope is a good thing, maybe the best of things, and no good thing ever dies"



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Monday, August 8, 2011 11:05 AM

M52NICKERSON

DALEK!


It is not a joke, but an essay in a series looking at families in the 21st century. It is not a bad essay. The women talks about the her desire for her daughter to share her politic views but also make up her own mind.

People should actually read it.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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Monday, August 8, 2011 11:15 AM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg


Hey m52,

How about I post a retort,

but its a picture of Obama, or Pelosi, with crosshairs on the sweetspot?

Have its underscore say "I want the red mist"?

You might want to rethink your little, cute, fake, picture.

"Hope is a good thing, maybe the best of things, and no good thing ever dies"



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Monday, August 8, 2011 11:18 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
If I EVER, EVER, EEEVVVER heard a liberal make a valid point, that could be backed up by real-life experience,

or even something that could be validated BEYOND a "utopian" vision..

I would actually listen. I may actually agree.

But so far. Nothing. Nada.




See? This is EXACTLY why I can never take anyone seriously who claims to be one of the tea-bagging dolts on the right.

No matter how many times Wulf has come around and actually AGREED with so-called "liberals" here about one point or another...

... it's all completely gone out of his empty noggin within a 24-hour span.

The boy has no CAPACITY to learn. Like Rappy, he's progressed as far in his thinking as he ever will: "Tea party good, progress bad, fire hot, food yum." That's it.

Wulfie has the morality and ethics of a dog: If he can't eat it or fuck it, then piss on it.

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Monday, August 8, 2011 11:19 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
Hey m52,

How about I post a retort,

but its a picture of Obama, or Pelosi, with crosshairs on the sweetspot?

Have its underscore say "I want the red mist"?

You might want to rethink your little, cute, fake, picture.

"Hope is a good thing, maybe the best of things, and no good thing ever dies"






I double-dog dare ya.

C'mon, boy - you don't have the guts.

Or the photoshop skilz... ;)

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Monday, August 8, 2011 11:29 AM

M52NICKERSON

DALEK!


Well lets see, mine has a illustrated snake and yours would have a real person. I can totally see how those are the same.

(For those to slow to catch it, I was being sarcastic in that second sentience.)

Or you know you could respond to the body of the essay and state problems you have with arguments made within in it.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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Monday, August 8, 2011 11:47 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by m52nickerson:


Well lets see, mine has a illustrated snake and yours would have a real person. I can totally see how those are the same.

(For those to slow to catch it, I was being sarcastic in that second sentience.)



Actually, yours would be a symbol like the British would have been fond of, during our fight for independence. While technically not treason, as we were still just colonists at the time, and not yet a true nation , the sentiment is undeniable

You're basically anti-freedom, and pro-tyranny.


At least be proud enough in your convictions to admit that much.







" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Monday, August 8, 2011 11:51 AM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg


The hypocrisy of liberals is amazing.

This.

Is.

Why.

You.

Fail.

2012 cannot get here fast enough.



"Hope is a good thing, maybe the best of things, and no good thing ever dies"



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Monday, August 8, 2011 11:59 AM

M52NICKERSON

DALEK!


If I were anti-freedom, and pro-tyranny I would admit it. I'm not. The fact that you can't understand that is why you can't learn anything.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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Monday, August 8, 2011 12:06 PM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg


"If I were anti-freedom, and pro-tyranny I would admit it. I'm not. The fact that you can't understand that is why you can't learn anything."

LMAO

Problem is, we got your ideology zeroed.





"Hope is a good thing, maybe the best of things, and no good thing ever dies"



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Monday, August 8, 2011 12:15 PM

M52NICKERSON

DALEK!


Oh, yes you zeroed right in on it. My Zeus, you guys are so good that is why you don't actually have to debate anyone. Why would you? Obviously anyone who disagrees with you hates the U.S. of A. Obviously if they challenge your views their views are known and must be anti-freedom, communist loving, and anti-American.



I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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Monday, August 8, 2011 12:17 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


As from the other thread, the TP would have some credibility if, for example, Ron Paul were to endorse the politicos who call themselves tea-baggers, or endorse their policies. The fact that he doesn't indicates how far the tea-baggers have moved away from the original concept. Right now it's inhabited by people who are greedy, power-hungry, or have some serious emotional issues. That makes them as a group unlikely to learn much of anything.

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Monday, August 8, 2011 12:21 PM

YINYANG

You were busy trying to get yourself lit on fire. It happens.


Quote:

Originally posted by Bytemite:
Research suggests that Salon.com is a tabloid site, and that this may be a joke article, perhaps similar to an Onion article.

If it is not, then my concern is less about what people believe, and more about the kind of slice of life crap that gets written as "news" these days. What the hell, journalists?



Well, yes, it's meant to be real, but it's creative non-fiction, not journalism. It's not meant to be on par with "Dow Jones drops 500 points;" it's closer to the fluff they put towards the end of a one hour news story ("now that we've shown you how shitty and terrifying the world is, here's a funny clip of a squirrel everybody's already seen on YouTube"). This one in particular is meant to spark a conversation; in general, Salon seems to be more about analyzing and discussing than news-making.

I didn't think this one was that bad, but you're free to disagree of course. Just wanted to make sure you were criticizing for the right reasons. (Which is, I think, a point similar to the one you made in this thread: http://fireflyfans.net/mthread.asp?b=4&t=48288.)

All that said, if you could write an interesting story incorporating your bug bite, someone might pay you for it. It won't be front page of the Wall Street Journal, though.

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Monday, August 8, 2011 12:35 PM

MAGONSDAUGHTER


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
If the kid is smart, she'll back the TEA party movement.

If not, she'll be a ward of the State, and will never know freedom.




Huh?

You honestly can't see the possibility that decent people may vote democrat? You didn't understand the crux of the article, which is about how much or little do we - CAN we - tolerate political difference in our children?

Is it just you or has the debate in the US really gotten this bad?

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Monday, August 8, 2011 12:37 PM

MAGONSDAUGHTER


Quote:

Originally posted by m52nickerson:
It is not a joke, but an essay in a series looking at families in the 21st century. It is not a bad essay. The women talks about the her desire for her daughter to share her politic views but also make up her own mind.

People should actually read it.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.



Agreed. It's a personal article where she reflects on her life and her family. Why the weeping for humanity?

If someone could explain what is supposedly so outrageous about her view? Does Wulf or Rap actually have children. For evoluntions sake, I'm hoping not.

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Monday, August 8, 2011 12:41 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


It's gotten bad enough that Wulfie here is openly crying about it.





"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Monday, August 8, 2011 12:48 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Well, I noticed that Wulf has not been able to discuss any particular point in the essay that causes him to "weep". Which isn't surprising because in order to do that he would have to be able to read with comprehension, understand HIS OWN point of view and relate it to the essay, and then formulate in sentences of more than three words (without using video clips) how his POV differs from that of the essay, and why he feels he is correct.

Oh gawd, the whole concept is giving me giggle fits!

I have to say tho, it's evident that he really DID grow up in a poor black ghetto, because clearly his education is lacking. The only thing HE knows how to be is the white equivalent of a black gang-banger. And he has no intention of growing past it.

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Monday, August 8, 2011 2:06 PM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht


Signe, someone will say something about your ghetto comment later, something about how not everyone in the ghetto is foolishly uneducated, even I think that was a lil' below the board, not because you were saying they grew up there, but because it just came out sounding wrong. I know what you meant, but you may want to reword it. If you don't that fine, just sayin.

I weep for humanity too, but I don't think its for the same reasons. I didn't read the article, don't have time.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

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Monday, August 8, 2011 2:35 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Riona, it is directly related to what wulf has said of his past. According to him, he grew up being the neglected child of a single mom, the only white face in sight, and wound up joining a gang in sheer self-defense. In time the gang turned on him. Not only has he emerged with a clear hatred of blacks... and the overwhelming idea that ONLY blacks are raciss'... but also with a definite case of PTSD. Unfortunately for him he's still stuck in the past, and he is now everything he feared- except that he's white so that makes it alright. It wasn't a slam on ghetto-dwellers in general, if that's what you mean.

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Monday, August 8, 2011 2:38 PM

MAGONSDAUGHTER


Quote:

Originally posted by SignyM:
Well, I noticed that Wulf has not been able to discuss any particular point in the essay that causes him to "weep". Which isn't surprising because in order to do that he would have to be able to read with comprehension, understand HIS OWN point of view and relate it to the essay, and then formulate in sentences of more than three words (without using video clips) how his POV differs from that of the essay, and why he feels he is correct.



Sadly this is true for both Wulf and Rappy. Not much intelligent or even thoughtful comment on anything.

I thought the article was a fairly benign slice of life kind a yarn. She might have been a Republican saying the same thing, only polically reversed.

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Monday, August 8, 2011 5:19 PM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Originally posted by SignyM:
God forbid my daughter should become like the mean-spirited, greedy, hate-filled bastards we see here.



I hope she doesn't.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Monday, August 8, 2011 6:03 PM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht


I don't think she will, especially since it is something you actively don't want so you can stay on top of it.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

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Monday, August 8, 2011 6:15 PM

FREMDFIRMA


Quote:

Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
If I EVER, EVER, EEEVVVER heard a liberal make a valid point, that could be backed up by real-life experience,

or even something that could be validated BEYOND a "utopian" vision..

I would actually listen. I may actually agree.

But so far. Nothing. Nada.


I call bullshit.

Not only were you completely onboard with a lot of what I stand for, and still are despite using a sick, mean-spirited agenda to stifle the pangs of conscience over your own moral weaknesses you can't even justify to yourself - you were actually going forward with the notion of putting it into real life practice right up till you discovered it would take actual risk, time and effort on your part and wussed out like a fucking pansy, only to find a more "convenient" route that doesn't require anything of you but to throw your pittance of a loud mouth in with a dozen other bullies and their fifteen sockpuppets each.

Don't think I've forgotten your cowardice, wulfenwhiner - and when the rubber meets the road, all that thunder and fire comes to naught cause down where it counts, you and yours are gutless little shits unwilling to put their money, their hide, or anything else where there mouth is, as firmly evidenced by certain empty theatres when one of your TEA Party paragons screened their best propaganda vid, and none of you even had the guts to show up cause the slimy filth of what you are might be revealed to people who actually KNOW you, instead of over the ether.

So yeah, keep on talkin, cause really, that's all you got - and you ain't even smart enough to USE it in a way that has a real, demonstrable effect because you're so completely kneecapped by your own weaknesses and prejudices, so really, the one you're weeping for is yourself...

And you ain't even got the balls to admit THAT.

-Frem
and your father smelt of elderberries!

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Monday, August 8, 2011 9:58 PM

KANEMAN


Quote:

Originally posted by SignyM:
God forbid my daughter should become like the mean-spirited, greedy, hate-filled bastards we see here.




...Or like you. I'm pretty sure your post IS mean-spirited....but what do I know?... you fucking idiot.

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Tuesday, August 9, 2011 7:27 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Magons, it's partly about him and partly that debate HAS gotten that bad, mostly by extremists on the right. Raptor, Wulf and Kane kind of reflect the worst of the right, not the thinking people on the right who believe in something. They have blinders on that seem to make them incapable of debating ANYTHING, merely throwing stones and making stupid personal cracks, which of course goads others into responding just like them. It's a real shame; I'd so love to hear someone from the right's take on the article, we could probably have a very interesting discussion on it. Unfortunately, as I've mourned before, we don't HAVE anyone like that and oh, how I wish we DID. The closest we seem to get is Geezer and DT, tho' I doubt they'd consider themselves on the right. At least we DO have them, tho'. It's better than nothing.

This board has become largely a series of threads where, whether someone puts up something valid or not, one of our righties will make an absurd statement and the rest of the thread becomes a personal argument. I'm passing by thread after thread because of it; there are few actual discussions and even fewer debates here anymore, so why bother posting? Once something degenerates into this stuff, I check out and go looking for posts of SOME kind of substance.


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off



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Tuesday, August 9, 2011 7:29 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Weird. Because you suggested it, Nick, I read the whole article. It seemed to me a reasoned personal account, a relating of her past experience and a question she was asking herself about how her daughter's political beliefs would be formed and how she would feel if they ended up the opposite of hers. Nothing more. If someone thinking person on the right were to pen exactly the same thing from THEIR perspective, I would find it just as valid.

I don't get at all why it would make anyone "weep for humanity" OR how on earth someone could go from that to "ward of the state and never know freedom". Neither statement has the slightest logic to it.

I certainly agree with Sig that " God forbid my daughter should become like the mean-spirited, greedy, hate-filled bastards we see here." "HERE" is the operant term to me, because I have to believe there are people on the right out there who could write just the same sort of thoughtful article.

How on earth does
Quote:

How about I post a retort,

but its a picture of Obama, or Pelosi, with crosshairs on the sweetspot?

Have its underscore say "I want the red mist"?

in any way relate to the article? Mostly I am baffled by the remarks coming from those on the right here; there is no desire to discuss anything, only unrelated snarks. Oh, wait, I see where the "crosshairs" comes into it; he was referring to your parody of the Gadsden flag. But that doesn't have anything to do with the article either...?
Quote:

Or you know you could respond to the body of the essay and state problems you have with arguments made within in it.
THAT would have some validity, especially as it was he who put up the topic in the first place.


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off



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Tuesday, August 9, 2011 7:30 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Yin, your statement was also on point:
Quote:

This one in particular is meant to spark a conversation; in general, Salon seems to be more about analyzing and discussing than news-making.
As far as I've ever been able to tell, I agree; Salon isn't about "news" or even necessarily "journalism"--hell, "journalism" isn't about journalism anymore, and news is infotainment.

Dunno if we've met before, some people pop in so rarely I don't remember them, but if not, welcome; it's always great to hear a new voice.


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off



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Tuesday, August 9, 2011 7:53 AM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg


Replace "What if my child grows up to be a Republican?"

with,

"What if my child grows up to be gay?" (and supporting diatribe)

See the "outrage" fly.

Hypocrits, all of you liberals.

Or. "What if my child grows up to be a Democrat"?


You claim to be so "liberal", so "progressive", so "tolerant".

Until someone disagrees with you.

(Had an idea. I should rewrite the article. "What if my child grows up to be a Democrat?" Use the same type of writing and examples. See what would happen. Can't tho. I have a job. Anyone want to take up the challenge?)



"Hope is a good thing, maybe the best of things, and no good thing ever dies"



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Tuesday, August 9, 2011 7:57 AM

M52NICKERSON

DALEK!


No there would be no outrage, you would understand that if you read the article.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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Tuesday, August 9, 2011 9:23 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


I'll take the time (since Jim ran the dogs this morning, so I don't have to get them out!), I'll happily try my hand at it. It was harder than I thought (because I'm not familiar with historical conservative figures and don't use buzz words), but I tried. Please correct the names if I got them wrong:
Quote:

What if my daughter grows up to be Democrat?
At 12, Lizzie is a Tea Partier like me. But what if one day she embraces the Democratic party, like her grandparents?

My parents are Democrats. I'm a conservative. My husband is to the right of your average Bircher. Dinners together walk a tightrope of small talk -- none of us wanting to veer too far in either direction, frightened we'll go careening into a political abyss. Our daughter, Lizzie, is always a safe topic. She's our Switzerland.

But I'm not sure how much longer that will last. Lizzie, at 12, is becoming politically aware.

She's always been well informed. Not that she had much of a choice. After the 2000 election and before her first birthday, she participated in her first pro-Bush rally. I stuffed her in her bright green baby backpack and headed to Times Square. There, she grinned and drooled as tourists in fanny packs and white tennis shoes yelled mean things at a dozen of us who were protesting the Democrats' election fraud in Florida. Thanks to the Supreme Court, George W. Bush was sworn in -- thus assuring that Lizzie's formative years had ample opportunities for protest. Her favorite was the huge pro-war rally in Central Park, when she was 3. There were balloons and face painting -- and the playground near the park was more exciting than the ones back in Brooklyn, N.Y., where we then lived. Riding the train home, she waved her small paper flag like a sword and chanted, "'Merica! 'Merica!" Then she yawned and asked for her sippie cup.

I don't want to indoctrinate my child into the cult of my political beliefs. I want her to make up her own mind. But, since she's a kid, she mirrors our beliefs, as her friends do their parents'. If I were a union thug, an elitist intellectual, an Olbermann-watching left-winger, she would probably share my misguided views. But I'm a pickup-driving capitalist--and therefore so is Lizzie. (Except the driving part -- at 12, she doesn't yet. Thankfully.) It's not like we sit her down with Edmund Burke flashcards or whisper Ann Coulter to her as she sleeps, but we talk a lot at dinner, discussing politics and what's going on not just in our neighborhood or city, but in the world. (We recently chatted about climate change and chocolate eclairs -- and, because my husband is a historian, she probably knows more about Kierkegaard than any other kid her age.) But how to balance the way we view the world with how other people do? How to show her both sides of the political picture?

Our family dinners are very different from those when I was a kid. Back then, we didn't discuss politics at the dinner table -- or anywhere else. Our household was more of a dictatorship, with my dad's liberal beliefs reigning supreme. There was no room for dissent and none encouraged. When I was in second grade, I made up my own mind about an election. Our teacher gave us each a copy of the Weekly Reader, which still smelled of fresh newsprint. One story was about the '72 election and we got to vote! I'd checked the box next to Nixon's head. It was a nice head, I'd thought. He looked so smart compared to that McGovern fellow. I skipped to our house, no doubt wearing an outfit like rainbow shift and headband, something that would have fit in more in, say, 1964 San Francisco rather than 1972 Omaha, where we lived at the time. I have no way to prove this scientifically, but I'm pretty sure we were the most liberal family Omaha. While other kids were attending Up With People concerts, we were singing along to the Rolling Stones' "Brown Sugar".

Dropping my plastic school satchel on the ground, I proudly pulled out the secret ballot to show my parents. "No one in our house votes Republican!" my dad scolded. He was joking, of course, but I still felt ashamed, like I'd just admitted I loved guns or Christian Evangelicals. How could I have been so wrong? I should have voted for McGovern! My parents later did, but he lost. Meanwhile, I slunk off, feeling like I'd committed a crime. I have no idea if I crumbled up that Weekly Reader or if my mom eventually stuffed it in the trash. In my mind, I picture myself crumbling it up, my first foray into politics a horrid mistake.

But do my husband and I truly encourage dissent with our daughter? What if Lizzie decides she wants to volunteer for whomever runs on the Democratic ticket in 2012? She'll be in eighth grade then. Would I drive her to help with that campaign? I happily drove all over eastern Pennsylvania when she wanted to canvass for Bush. She held pamphlets as we meandered door to door, encouraging registered Republicans to vote. Would I do the same quite as cheerfully if she supported Obama? I don't think so. But I honestly can't see Lizzie embracing a Democratic candidate. For her, politics is all about values, and for now, at least, she values family and religion.

And how to explain "values" and the coded semantics of political language to a kid? During a recent local election, Lizzie and I trawled the voters' guide, which was filled with names and photos of candidates and blurbs about their positions on various issues. One candidate had written she supported "intellectual values." I muttered, "Uh-oh. I'll stay away from her."

"But Mom, aren't intellectual values a good thing? Our family is intellectual," she said, puzzled.

I tried to explain that those "intellectual values" were often quite different from what our family values.

If she someday embraces "intellectual values," the intellectual elites or other left-wing agendas, could it damage my relationship with her? Although I try to understand my parents' political beliefs, I don't. When I see what Newsmax "article" or Wall Street Journal editorial my father "hates" on Facebook, or glance at a photo, taken a few years back, of my folks dressed as Obama and Biden for Halloween, I feel physically sick. Sometimes it's hard to even have simple conversations with them. Even the most innocent pleasantry, like "Nice weather," could spiral out of control if I don't watch what I say. (For the record, they are loving grandparents and are far more gracious than I am about not bringing up delicate topics.) If my dad says, "I bet you guys are happy you're not back east this winter. Climate change has sure screwed things up." I'm tempted to mutter something about the idiocy of climate change, but instead I bite my tongue and say, "Yes, in Portland we don't have to shovel rain."

It sometimes seems my parents and I are as divided as Congress, neither side understanding the other's point of view. But when I'm around them, I'm somehow whisked right back to adolescence. I morph into a sullen 16-year-old with no power, whose views are considered childish. I want to engage, to discuss topics calmly with them, but my emotions knock any possibility of cool-headed debate out of the way. All my facts and statistics -- the cornerstone of rational debate -- get gummed together in my mouth by raw emotion and I only manage to get out incoherent raw ravings. And if history is any indication of the future, I'm doomed to repeat myself.

I wish I could calmly debate issues like my husband does. Or maybe I should take a lesson from Lizzie. The truth is, she can teach me a thing or two about politics. Instead of getting scorched by the heat of the moment, like I do, she's cool and collected. She listens intently. Then a question she asks will sum up the prejudice of the other side quite succinctly. "Why do Grammy and Grampy want Charlie's lesbian moms to get married? That's not right."

And she's right. It's not.

Anybody outraged?



Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off



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Tuesday, August 9, 2011 9:32 AM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg


Well done, Nix. Well done.

(tipping my hat)

"Hope is a good thing, maybe the best of things, and no good thing ever dies"



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Tuesday, August 9, 2011 9:34 AM

M52NICKERSON

DALEK!


That is brilliant!

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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Tuesday, August 9, 2011 9:36 AM

M52NICKERSON

DALEK!


Quote:

Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
Well done, Nix. Well done.

(tipping my hat)

"Hope is a good thing, maybe the best of things, and no good thing ever dies"





So does that mean you no longer have a problem with the original?

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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Tuesday, August 9, 2011 9:41 AM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg


I have a problem with anyone or anything that is ok with indoctrination.

The original article showed how much this is going on. Yeah, its a natural thing for parents to "impress" on their children THEIR beliefs. And sometimes thats a good thing.

I still think the kid from the original article will end up hating her parents and becoming a hardcore Republican.

In short.. teach them what you think is right, show them that your ideology works, then let them make their own decision. They will anyways.

Just don't write some whiney article about it. ;)

"Hope is a good thing, maybe the best of things, and no good thing ever dies"



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Tuesday, August 9, 2011 9:46 AM

M52NICKERSON

DALEK!


Quote:

Originally posted by Wulfenstar:In short.. teach them what you think is right, show them that your ideology works, then let them make their own decision. They will anyways.


That is what the essay is about.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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Tuesday, August 9, 2011 11:44 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


That's just the point, Wulf, that you're not getting. She ISN'T indoctrinating her daughter. She's exposed her to her beliefs, and in the end hopes she makes up her own mind. I'm not sure how you can miss that. She doesn't know what will happen if her daughter has the opposite viewpoint to hers (as she has the opposite of HER parents), but she's open to it.

Do your and Nick's kudos mean I got the names right? I had to look long and hard to try and get some "right' names to exchange for Karl Marx, etc.; I'm afraid I'm not well versed in iconic figures from either side. If so, good. It was worth the time and effort.


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off



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Tuesday, August 9, 2011 12:56 PM

MAGONSDAUGHTER


Everybody indoctrinates their kids in their beliefs one way or another. probably the worst offenders are the religious, sorry guys but its true.

Most young children mirror their parents views, but when they start to individuate in adolescence, they question them. That is part of their healthy development into adulthood. Unfortunately, it can be quite unpleasant for parents and some, rather than supporting them in exploring a range of views and lifestyles, tighten the moral grip. Hence you get a lot of runaways at this time.

In adolescence and early adulthood, many will outright reject the values of their parents, only to return to something similar in 'true' adulthood. Sometimes, as the author demonstrates, not at all.

What the author expresses seems quite normal to me, a hope that her children will not veer too far from her politically (hence causing the awkward gap as per her own family of origin) but the desire to not indoctrinate them or prevent them from making up their own mind. The only weeping for humanity from me comes about that someone would find this mild article offensive because, frankly, the woman is a democrat.

As for the 'what if my child grows up gay' I can admit that I sincerely hope that my son is not gay, and not because I hate gays, but because in this country being gay is still damned hard. People are blatantly, violently and openly anti gay and I would hate for him to have to deal with that. But whatever happens, I'll love and support him.

On the list of things I hope he doesn't (but will support him anyway)

- join the military
- become a Liberal Politican
- become a Catholic Priest

That last one would be really testing.

But that is the way it is with parenting, you have your own dreams and wishes for them, and you know damn straight they'll go their own way._

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Tuesday, August 9, 2011 2:19 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
Replace "What if my child grows up to be a Republican?"

with,

"What if my child grows up to be gay?" (and supporting diatribe)

See the "outrage" fly.

Hypocrits, all of you liberals.

Or. "What if my child grows up to be a Democrat"?


You claim to be so "liberal", so "progressive", so "tolerant".

Until someone disagrees with you.

(Had an idea. I should rewrite the article. "What if my child grows up to be a Democrat?" Use the same type of writing and examples. See what would happen. Can't tho. I have a job. Anyone want to take up the challenge?)





You can't write, because you have a job?

Wow. What a sucky job that must be. They won't even let you write on your own time!

Or you're just too goddamned lazy to do it, and don't know anything about real liberals and democrats, so you'd have no way of referencing any of their cultural touchstones.

A long time ago I asked you whether it was your cowardice or your craziness that kept you from joining the military, since you admire them so much. I think I have my answer now: You're nothing but a coward.

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Tuesday, August 9, 2011 3:54 PM

BYTEMITE


Well. Um. Sometimes the hours can be long, or the commute is, you know, and when you get home you barely have the energy to keep up conversations on a message board. And then there's people who work two or three jobs.

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Tuesday, August 9, 2011 4:38 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Those seem like some pretty weak-sauce excuses for somebody (Wulfie, to be precise) who regularly accuses others of being lazy, and chalks said laziness up as a hallmark of "liberalism".

So, y'know, if he's so energetic and fired up, and so offended by the piece as written, why doesn't he go ahead and take the time to rewrite it? Even submit it for publication?

Because if not, then what does that tell us about our Wulfboy?

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Tuesday, August 9, 2011 4:48 PM

FREMDFIRMA


Quote:

Originally posted by Magonsdaughter:
Everybody indoctrinates their kids in their beliefs one way or another.


Actually my mother made her best effort to avoid this - even after so long I really don't know what a lot of her beliefs were, religiously though I think she was somewhere in the neighborhood of diesm/agnostic, and having *some* affiliation with local pagans of unknown type or degree.

She more or less let me find my own path and then backed me up so long as that didn't compromise her morals, and in the extremely rare case where I might have come to her for guidance she always supported what seemed to be the natural path for me - she knew damn well I'd never quite be welcome or wanted in the world and society I would have to grow up in, and introduced me quite early to the concept of Knight Errant (which I more or less embraced) and the Chivalric Code (which after years of struggle, I rejected due to sexism/racism/classism, and damn foolishness) as an encouragement to seek moral fortitude and discipline from within, instead of looking for it from outside sources who I'd already mostly rejected.

My first real encounter with indoctrination came at the hands of religious authorities, and I was pointing out logical fallacies, circular logic and flaws in their thinking without even quite realizing it at the time, one of my favorite comments to the matter was "But that makes no SENSE!" - in order to pacify the whining of neighbors my mother convinced me to attend the local sunday school via bribing me with fruity pebbles in exchange for putting up with them, mmm tastes like religion - only to more or less snicker into her tea as they eventually became angry at my questions and refusal to sit down, shut up and obey, and strongly hinted to her that I wasn't welcome there no more, heeee.
(Which was, in a kinda-sorta way, my "plan" all along)
I was also kinda railroaded into, and subsequentedly pitched out on my ear by, the Awanas, which is a ludicrously religious take on the Boy Scouts, who had already rejected any notion of my presence cause of that furball about the pledge of alliegeance - although I did serve as muscle for my sisters venture into the Brownies, which ended with a fracas over a blatantly-fixed raffle when we caught them at it.
(And got villainized and called liars, cause all children are lying manipulators, right ? *snark*)

The second was via public school, and that didn't turn out too well neither, to say the least.
Fate has gotten a little revenge on me here in regards to my recent forays into assisting Kiras mother in the caretaking of that little horror - trying to cope with a naturally chaotic child who has an iron will and the brains to twit adults on a regular basis is no picnic even for someone as tolerant as me, I can most certainly now see WHY most adults wanted to wring my neck, I wasn't as energetic about is as Crash it, but I was even MORE stubborn, defiant, and willing to throw challenge in their face and defy them while shredding their ridiculous excuses and flawed logic.
My mother musta had the patience of all the saints put together, cause it's really not fun being on the receiving end of what I used to deliver, especially since I was far more obnoxious and malicious about it than Kira is, cause I hated them, bitterly.

Anyhows, most parents, it's a matter of whether or not their love can supercede their own emotional needs, and while often failing and faltering, when it comes to cases the greater part of them are supportive even when it grinds their gears.

Which is one of the things which preserves my faith in humanity, I'll have you know.

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

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Tuesday, August 9, 2011 7:10 PM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht


I liked that article you wrote Niki. The only thing I would change would be the part about climate change. Most conservatives will admit to that since the climate is indeed changing and always has cycled throughout the ages. So you might want to call it global warming for your intentions. But it was a good article.

I know what you mean. At nine my little brother seems to be choosing the beliefs of his mom (he's adopted and calls my mom grandma, so I'm talking about his bio mom here, he sees her every Tue. evening) as opposed to my beliefs. I have to admit that this bothers me since Christianity is very important to me and I believe it is the right way. But I certainly can't force him and he's got plenty of time to figure out what he believes so I'm trying not to get too riled up over it. I love him either way, but I won't deny that I'm hoping he comes around someday. So I'm experiencing a little bit of the same feelings, but some different ones too, expressed in this article, though for me beliefs about spirituality/religeon are more important than politics.
"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

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Tuesday, August 9, 2011 9:23 PM

YINYANG

You were busy trying to get yourself lit on fire. It happens.


Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:

Dunno if we've met before, some people pop in so rarely I don't remember them, but if not, welcome; it's always great to hear a new voice.



Thanks for the welcome (back). I've always been a more active lurker on the boards than a poster, but I've been almost absent on both fronts since you joined. I mean, sheesh, the last time I posted before this month was October 2010, and I think I only posted in one thread before disappearing again. I'm kind of surprised anyone remembers me.

Quote:

Originally posted by Magonsdaughter:
As for the 'what if my child grows up gay' I can admit that I sincerely hope that my son is not gay, and not because I hate gays, but because in this country being gay is still damned hard. People are blatantly, violently and openly anti gay and I would hate for him to have to deal with that. But whatever happens, I'll love and support him.



Hardly seems like a good solution, though - to hope that people facing bigotry don't exist, rather than hoping for bigots to go away.

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Tuesday, August 9, 2011 9:39 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


"So, y'know, if he's so energetic and fired up, and so offended by the piece as written, why doesn't he go ahead and take the time to rewrite it? Even submit it for publication?

Because if not, then what does that tell us about our Wulfboy?"

Bob, I'm going to take answer C - that he's illiterate. AND D - that papers won't publish unoriginal comic books and stolen youtube videos as commentary.

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Tuesday, August 9, 2011 9:44 PM

MAGONSDAUGHTER


Quote:

Originally posted by yinyang:

Hardly seems like a good solution, though - to hope that people facing bigotry don't exist, rather than hoping for bigots to go away.



A bit of a leap, don't you think. Hoping that my son doesn't have to face a difficult life is not the same as wishing gay people didn't exist. And if you can't see the difference, you're a bit of a dolt.

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