London Burning by piratenews

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/comment/talking-politics/no-politics-today-08
4521728.html

Looks like a lot of opportunistic looters out for a good time, rather than being politically motivated. The only effect that this will have will be for police to be given even more draconian powers than they already have in the UK and a whole lot of working class people who own small businesses in these areas will suffer even more than they are in the current crisis. Well done to all involved.

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Tuesday, August 9, 2011 10:01 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

Looking more and more like the LA riots. Which actually led to improved policing. Perhaps in England it will lead to a restoration of some benefits.

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Wednesday, August 10, 2011 12:02 AM

OLDENGLANDDRY

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Wednesday, August 10, 2011 12:21 AM

Many in the UK are reeling after days of images of brazen thefts and wanton damage during the riots, but just where is the tipping point when people think they can start looting?

There have been some extraordinary scenes in London and other cities this week, from burning buildings and running street battles, to people unashamedly walking into a shop and leaving with a flat-screen television under their arms.

Many of the looters have not bothered to cover their faces as they raided electrical stores, sports shops and off-licences.

Some have even posed for a picture afterwards, proudly showing off their haul and posting the images on social-networking sites.

Prof John Pitts, a criminologist who advises several London local authorities on young people and gangs, says some of those taking the lead in the looting will be known to the authorities, while others are swept along.
Car burning Rioters have set fire to cars and buses

He says looting makes "powerless people suddenly feel powerful" and that is "very intoxicating".

"The world has been turned upside down. The youngsters are used to adults in authority telling them they cannot do this or this will happen. Then they do it and nothing happens."

He says a large number of youngsters are involved in these riots because it is the school holidays and the nights are longer.

Numbers are all important in a riot and the tipping point comes when the rioters feel in control, he adds.

"You cannot riot on your own. A one-man riot is a tantrum. At some point the bigger crowds confronting the police realise that they are in control."
Psychopathic tendencies

Psychologists argue that a person loses their moral identity in a large group, and empathy and guilt - the qualities that stop us behaving like criminals - are corroded.
Continue reading the main story
A social psychologist's view

For most people looting is opportunistic. And greed is certainly a factor.

But some people approach this situation not necessarily with bad intentions. They are swept away by the crowd, for a variety of reasons highlighted by social psychologists.

One concept is called deindividuation. Normally people's behaviour is guided by their own identity and values, which tell us to not do certain things - like taking things without paying for them.

But in some situations they take on the values of the group. Our own internal values and norms become less salient.

The second idea is called emergent norm theory. Most of these people have probably not been in a riot like this one before. They are unsure of what the appropriate behaviour is.

So they look at what other people are doing. And if other people are doing this, it suggests it's normal. Or at least maybe it is something that I can get away with.

Source: Jason Nier, associate professor of psychology, Connecticut College, speaking to BBC World Service

"Morality is inversely proportional to the number of observers. When you have a large group that's relatively anonymous, you can essentially do anything you like," according to Dr James Thompson, honorary senior lecturer in psychology at University College London.

"Part of that is down to safety in numbers. There may only be 20 or 30 people who are leading the trouble but the presence of several hundred onlookers makes it far less likely they'll get caught."

He rejects the notion that some of the looters are passively going with the flow once the violence has taken place, insisting there is always a choice to be made.

Watching people getting away with it can act as a motivation for others to start looting, says psychologist Dr Lance Workman.

"Humans are the best on the planet at imitating. And we tend to imitate what is successful. If you see that people are walking out of a shop with a widescreen TV and trainers, a certain kind of person thinks why shouldn't I do that?"

Workman argues that some of those taking part may adopt an ad hoc moral code in their minds - "these rich people have things I don't have so it's only right that I take it".

But there's evidence to suggest that gang leaders tend to have psychopathic tendencies, he says.

This idea of a mob mentality can be found in football hooliganism. Former Manchester United hooligan Tony O'Reilly, says there is a similarity between this week's looting and the football violence he took part in for three decades.

It boils down to the buzz, he says. "It's an excitement. You can't take away that thrill - the roar of the crowd. That sense of a group of men, something's happening."

For most, the motivation is the thrill, with the "free stuff" just a bonus. But not for the ringleaders who manipulate the mob to target high-value shops.

He recalls a rampage through Swiss Cottage in the 1980s when Manchester United fans ended up looting a jewellery store. "The mob itself wasn't looking for jewellers but a few of the bright criminals used the mob and bystanders and the mob joined in because of the buzz."
'Just thuggery'

For law-abiding citizens setting fire to a bus or stealing from a shop is simply unthinkable. But academics say socio-economic factors cannot be left out of the equation.

Dr Paul Bagguley, a sociologist at the University of Leeds, says young men are usually engaged in confrontation with the police, while looters tend to include young children and women.
Locksmiths with smashed window Shops and homes have been damaged

"It's very likely that a lot of people stealing the stuff would not have done it before. There's a sense in these situations that the normal rules don't apply."

He says while looting occurs in most riots, it has dominated this week and they could be called the "consumer society riots".

"If you compare it to the riots in the 1980s, there's a lot more stuff you can loot easily, such as portable electronic gadgets, mobile phones and flatscreen TVs.

"For a lot of looters, it's just opportunity but it also expresses a sense of how else am I going to get a hold of these things?"

Prof Pitts says riots are complex events and cannot be explained away as "just thuggery".

They have to be seen against the backdrop of "growing discontents" about youth unemployment, education opportunities and income disparities.

He says most of the rioters are from poor estates who have no "stake in conformity", who have nothing to lose.

"They have no career to think about. They are not 'us'. They live out there on the margins, enraged, disappointed, capable of doing some awful things."

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Wednesday, August 10, 2011 2:48 AM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

Interesting article on whats going on.

http://www.spiked-online.com/index.php/site/article/10970/

"Hope is a good thing, maybe the best of things, and no good thing ever dies"

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Wednesday, August 10, 2011 3:49 AM

BYTEMITE

Magons: Hmm. The same kind of mentality during a celebration in Egypt can cause people to drag off a woman and brutalize her.

Wulf: Eh, that article is pretty biased against the chavs (working and lower class white British), seems to me. The UK has it's own form of acceptable targets.

It's pretty simple: what touched off the riots wasn't a desire to create an environment safe for looting, but anger. So while there is a lot of looting, it's disingenuous to say that's the primary motivation.

The austerity measures is a closer explanation, and fits with a lot of the behaviours we're seeing.

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Wednesday, August 10, 2011 6:28 AM

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)

Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
Magons: Hmm. The same kind of mentality during a celebration in Egypt can cause people to drag off a woman and brutalize her.

Wulf: Eh, that article is pretty biased against the chavs (working and lower class white British), seems to me. The UK has it's own form of acceptable targets.

It's pretty simple: what touched off the riots wasn't a desire to create an environment safe for looting, but anger. So while there is a lot of looting, it's disingenuous to say that's the primary motivation.

The austerity measures is a closer explanation, and fits with a lot of the behaviours we're seeing.

Yes.

This isn't because people are being told that they're going to have to pay for services now. It's because they've ALREADY PAID FOR THOSE SERVICES AND NOW THEY'RE BEING TOLD TO SOD OFF.

And this is exactly what Paul Ryan and the GOP and their tea party idiots want to do to this country. They want to destroy social programs that we already bought and paid for, all because THEY robbed the kitty, blew the money on idiotic shit like invading Iraq, and now they don't want to pay back what they spent, and they don't want anyone else to take too close a look at the books. So they decide it's better if we just burn the books and end the programs.

As I've pointed out, I get their anger. I just wish they'd shift their aim. A bit to the right should do it. ;)

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Wednesday, August 10, 2011 8:45 AM

FREMDFIRMA

Yo, Kiki ?

There's two pre-existing threads where a lot of issues regarding protest have been hashed out in detail, one of which is kinda epic but well worth the time.

This one delves into the conflict of supposedly-legit authorities versus protestors with a legit gripe...
http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.asp?b=18&t=43982

And this massive, extraordinarily detailed one delves into the conflict of human rights between protestors and the public in general.
http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.asp?b=18&t=43940

Both excellent reading, and of course, much of what's gone on in London doesn't really fall into either category cause a damn lot of it is just plain angry jackassery - although I do hear tell at least one and maybe more than one police station was torched, and in the G20 related thread which is more relevant to the situation at hand, as I said, I consider law enforcement personnel and equipment "legitimate targets" as a general rule, although in THIS specific case given that they seemed to go out of their way not to suppress or provoke, I ain't sure they are.

I would consider torching the local grocery store idiotic, criminal and reprehensible - not to mention downright counterproductive, but say... torching parliment ?
Fair game, you ask me.

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

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Wednesday, August 10, 2011 12:00 PM

Can't go there with ya, Frem - I'm not down with torching historical landmarks like Parliament.

Now, if that mob wanted to perhaps go to the summer homes of some of the members of Parliament with their torches and pitchforks...

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Wednesday, August 10, 2011 12:20 PM

Beir bua agus beannacht

As Frem said, in the first part of his post, I can understand (I wouldn't be willing to do it, but I understand the motivation behind it) going after targets that pertain to the thing that originally started the problem, police brutality. But blowing up things that have nothing to do with it is just stupidity pure and simple. I wouldn't want them to blow up Parliament as such because as Quicko said it is a historic landmark. I'm not the blowing-stuff-up type but I understand the motivation to destroy things that pertain to the thing you think is the problem.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

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Wednesday, August 10, 2011 12:30 PM

BYTEMITE

Remember, Remember, the 5th of November.

But no, I doubt it will come to that.

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Wednesday, August 10, 2011 12:47 PM

FREMDFIRMA

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
Can't go there with ya, Frem - I'm not down with torching historical landmarks like Parliament.

Now, if that mob wanted to perhaps go to the summer homes of some of the members of Parliament with their torches and pitchforks...

Good point, mind you I can think of a couple other ways to clear a building of unwanted pests/bastards without damage to the furnishings, but I rather suspect you'd like those even less...

I am ambivalent on the whole national landmark thing, but any repository of knowledge is to me, absolutely off-limits, knowledge should always be shared as wide and far as possible so it does not become lost - this is one of the reasons I find our ludicrous copyright law so offensive, just so ya know.

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

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Wednesday, August 10, 2011 12:56 PM

Beir bua agus beannacht

Hey Byte, we had a question about that last night at Geek Trivia, my team got it right.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

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Wednesday, August 10, 2011 3:05 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by RionaEire:
As Frem said, in the first part of his post, I can understand (I wouldn't be willing to do it, but I understand the motivation behind it) going after targets that pertain to the thing that originally started the problem, police brutality. But blowing up things that have nothing to do with it is just stupidity pure and simple. I wouldn't want them to blow up Parliament as such because as Quicko said it is a historic landmark. I'm not the blowing-stuff-up type but I understand the motivation to destroy things that pertain to the thing you think is the problem.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

Yeah, I'm not really down with violence much to begin with, but I *DO* understand the motivation. There's a sense there of "Okay, you can take away everything I have. You can do that. But what I can do is this: I can make it cost you MORE than you can possibly take from me."

And that's exactly where suicide bombers come from. At a certain point, you've been taken from and written off as useless by society, so what more have you got to lose?

I'm of the opinion that if you're that miserable as a person, then you have the right to take yourself out of the game, but you DO NOT have the right to try to take out everyone else.

I've said it about suicide bombers and I'll say it about these rioters: I'm not down with your actions, but I hear where you're coming from. I understand how you got to this point, but if it were me, I'd find another way.

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Wednesday, August 10, 2011 5:03 PM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up

Quote:
Originally posted by 1kiki:
No power was ever given up by the powerful to the powerless without the threat of significant loss.

Unfortunately, they're not causing the government any loss, but their neighbors are paying the price.

Quote:
Three men have been run over and killed as they protected property in a second night of violence in Birmingham.

The men aged 31, 30 and 21 were hit by a car in Winson Green. They were taken to City Hospital where about 200 people from the Asian community gathered.

Witnesses said the men were in a group protecting their community after riot police were called into the city.

Police have arrested a 32-year-old man who is being questioned on suspicion of murder following the deaths.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-birmingham-14471405

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Wednesday, August 10, 2011 5:30 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

Unfortunately I have never been able to find a particular clip of the LA riots - it was a aerial view of tens of thousands of people streaming down the street at an amble to go loot - in Pasadena, miles from Watts - while a very thin blue line of police stood to the side and watched.

Remember the 2010 student riots in England over fee hikes? The riots were certainly political and well-aimed.

"There have been violent scenes as tens of thousands of people protested against plans to treble tuition fees and cut university funding in England.
Demonstrators stormed a building in Westminster housing the Conservative Party headquarters, smashed windows and got on to the roof."

Remember the French riots of 2005 and 2010?

"France braces for riots as protests turn violent
By John Lichfield in Paris
Tuesday, 19 October 2010
A menacing new spectre hung over the French pension reform dispute yesterday – the threat of a re-run of the multi-racial suburban riots of five years ago."

And what's wrong with that? People SHOULD be pissed at being ground down just to make a few obscenely rich. However much or little riots achieve, they SHOULD make the government afraid of its people.

It is the extremists who give legitimacy to the moderates, not the other way around.

BTW - what I find really stupid and more than a little crazy is that here in the good ole' USofA where the people are either torpid or cowed, what the politicos fear most is LOSS OF APPEARANCE OF LEGITIMACY, which is why they screw around with the vote so much - when they don't need to be afraid at all, given that many don't vote.

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Wednesday, August 10, 2011 11:02 PM

From an organic chef and an opera house steward to an 11-year-old boy, a surprising picture has emerged of some of the alleged troublemakers behind Britain's worst riots for decades.

The first court appearances of more than 1000 people arrested suggests a broad cross-section of society took part in the riots and looting, including university students and members of the upper-middle class.

In London alone, 805 people had been arrested in connection with violence, disorder and looting and 251 have been charged.

Fitzroy Thomas, a 43-year-old organic chef, was accused with his brother Ronald, 47, of smashing up a branch of the Nando's chicken restaurant chain in Clapham, south London, the Times daily reported.

The pair pleaded not guilty in a London magistrates court and were remanded in custody, the paper said.
Shame file ... London's Daily Telegraph has published pictures of the accused, including, from left, the 11-year-old boy, Richard Myles-Palmer and Alexis Bailey,

Shame file ... London's Daily Telegraph has published pictures of the accused, including, from left, the 11-year-old boy, Richard Myles-Palmer and Alexis Bailey,

Nan Asante, 19, who recently started work as a steward at an outdoor opera venue in the upmarket London district of Holland Park, reportedly pleaded not guilty to looting a supermarket in the capital.

The Telegraph reported that an 11-year-old boy, who cannot be named, was chased by his aunt and mother down the street and dragged back by the scruff of his neck after he appeared in court. He was bailed over charges of looting a Debenhams department store in Romford, Essex.

He had been in custody for two days and had been arrested with a mob of 20 other children. The boy admitted stealing a waste bin worth £50 ($75).

Another alleged rioter was a student at Essex University near London, Banye Kanon, 20, according to reports, which said other suspects included a youth worker and a forklift truck driver.

Laura Johnson, the 19-year-old daughter of a successful company director who lives in a sprawling Kent farmhouse, was accused of looting electrical goods worth £5000.

Johnson, The Telegraph reported, is an English and Italian undergraduate at the University of Exeter and had previously attended the fourth-best state school in the country.

Her parents, Robert and Lindsay, run Avongate, a direct marketing company, but Mr Johnson was also a director of a company that took over the Daily Sport and Sunday Sport newspapers in 2007. A neighbour, who asked not to be named, said: "I just wouldn't expect someone from round here to be accused of this."

Alexis Bailey, 31, a worker at a primary school, admitted being part of a mob that tried to loot an electrical shop in Croydon, The Telegraph reported.

Bailey left court with a newspaper over his face, a headline about "copycat cretins" covering his eyes, and walked into a lamp post.

Another man, who The Telegraph reported had a substantial criminal record, adhered more to Prime Minister David Cameron's lament about "sickness" in British society. Richard Myles-Palmer was found wheeling a shopping trolley full of stolen power tools through south London.

The apparent involvement of such people in the riots will only deepen the debate over who and what was behind the outbreak of violence.

As The Guardian newspaper pointed out: "There is no simple answer to the question: who are the rioters?"

While many were young men from poor areas, the rioters came from different racial groups, women also joined in and the ages of those involved ranged from their teens to their 40s, said the paper.

Many commentators saw an element of opportunism, as police lost control of the streets to hooded gangs, others helped themselves from shops after windows were smashed.

But gangs of hooded youths from deprived areas were undoubtedly some of the main participants in the trouble, leading some to conclude that society's failure to integrate poor communities was a long-term cause of the riots.

In Manchester, where riots broke out on Tuesday, gangs in their late teens and 20s, often riding bicycles, roamed the streets until late into the night, smashing shops and looting, AFP journalists reported.

"There's a body of very angry young people out there, young people who have been marginalised systematically within society for decades," education expert Professor Gus John said.

"I think, to a large extent, it's an outpouring of pent-up anger against the police, but also total frustration with their situation as people see no future for themselves."

Some, however, rejected arguments that social conditions played a role and simply demanded a swift crackdown on the perpetrators.

The Sun tabloid, Britain's biggest-selling daily, asked readers to "shop a moron" on a front page emblazoned with CCTV images of alleged rioters.

"This unrest isn't about 'wider social issues' or poverty," youth and community worker Shaun Bailey, a former parliamentary candidate for the ruling Conservative Party, wrote in the paper.

"It is about robbery. And people's businesses, homes and livelihoods are being destroyed in the process."

- with AFP

Read more: http://www.theage.com.au/world/wellheeled-join-downtrodden-in-looting-
spree-20110811-1insa.html#ixzz1Ui2AdeAF

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Thursday, August 11, 2011 1:22 AM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-2024284/UK-riots-2011-Libera
l-dogma-spawned-generation-brutalised-youths.html

"Hope is a good thing, maybe the best of things, and no good thing ever dies"

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Thursday, August 11, 2011 9:58 AM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

Guess this story has passed out of the collective consciousness of those gathered here.

Noone has mentioned that the catalyst of this hooliganism, was started because the Brits shot a guy who they thought might have been armed.. (gun control works, really)

Look at the future folks. Britain is a libs wet dream. Look where it got them. Or Norway (in terms of gun control).

When are we, as Americans, going to finally reject these fools?

"Hope is a good thing, maybe the best of things, and no good thing ever dies"

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Thursday, August 11, 2011 10:07 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Oh, lord, I just LOVE it! Wulf's instinctive reaction to this entire story seems to be "GUNS!" Wow.

I've avoided this thread because I've seen enough of what's happening on TV to make me very, very sad, and I don't want to dwell on it any more than that. I feel for the people rioting, and I feel for those they are damaging, but most of all I fear for all of them (and us, if it gives people here any ideas...or when the gulf becomes so gigantic, while we watch our benefits and safety nets being cut more and more, that AMERICANS take to the streets, too.)

Just occurred to me; for all the Tea Party's rantings about "second-amendment solutions", etc., it might be the people they're willing to shaft who end up using that "solution" to target THEM! Gawd forbid.

Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off

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Thursday, August 11, 2011 10:52 AM

Beir bua agus beannacht

I think the thing that bothers me most about rioting is the wanton distruction of things that don't even relate to the original problem. I could sympathize better with them if they'd gone in and burnt down the local police station since police brutality was what supposedly started this mess. That would have at least made sense. But this was something different, something undefined and chaotic that just ccaused trouble and no one will remember later why the whole thing started, they'll just remember stupid people randomly setting fires to busses and sstealing big screen TVs and shooting folk and running them over. Meaninglessness.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

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Thursday, August 11, 2011 2:08 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
Guess this story has passed out of the collective consciousness of those gathered here.

No, we've been discussing it on a daily basis. I noticed you haven't been around, though. Maybe it just slipped out of YOUR consciousness.

Quote:

Noone has mentioned that the catalyst of this hooliganism, was started because the Brits shot a guy who they thought might have been armed.. (gun control works, really)

I thought you said it was because of "liberal entitlements". Do you think being shot by the police is an entitlement?

Quote:

Look at the future folks. Britain is a libs wet dream. Look where it got them. Or Norway (in terms of gun control).

Yes, they have an awful lot less gun crime than we do, don't they? They kill literally TENS OF THOUSANDS LESS PEOPLE EVERY YEAR WITH GUNS THAN AMERICA DOES.

How awful it must be for them. Now, this guy who was shot was claimed to be armed. Look how well that turned out for him! Look how well he was able to defend himself!

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Thursday, August 11, 2011 2:09 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Niki2:
Oh, lord, I just LOVE it! Wulf's instinctive reaction to this entire story seems to be "GUNS!" Wow.

I've avoided this thread because I've seen enough of what's happening on TV to make me very, very sad, and I don't want to dwell on it any more than that. I feel for the people rioting, and I feel for those they are damaging, but most of all I fear for all of them (and us, if it gives people here any ideas...or when the gulf becomes so gigantic, while we watch our benefits and safety nets being cut more and more, that AMERICANS take to the streets, too.)

Just occurred to me; for all the Tea Party's rantings about "second-amendment solutions", etc., it might be the people they're willing to shaft who end up using that "solution" to target THEM! Gawd forbid.

Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off

Yes, apparently Wulfie thinks that the rioters would be very much more well-behaved if they just had more guns with which to fight the police while rioting.

Odd logic, I'll grant you, but he does indeed want everyone armed, which logically includes the mobs doing the damage already.

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Thursday, August 11, 2011 2:11 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by RionaEire:
I think the thing that bothers me most about rioting is the wanton distruction of things that don't even relate to the original problem. I could sympathize better with them if they'd gone in and burnt down the local police station since police brutality was what supposedly started this mess. That would have at least made sense. But this was something different, something undefined and chaotic that just ccaused trouble and no one will remember later why the whole thing started, they'll just remember stupid people randomly setting fires to busses and sstealing big screen TVs and shooting folk and running them over. Meaninglessness.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

Yes to this. I'm with you. The destruction IS meaningless, and it COULD have meaning. As you said, aim it at something at least tangentially related to the cause of the anger: police and politicians. Or even Rupert Murdoch.

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Thursday, August 11, 2011 2:32 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

It's what happens when people are not invested in the society, b/c the society is not invested in them. Cause and effect.

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Thursday, August 11, 2011 2:54 PM

KPO

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.

Quote:
Look where it got them. Or Norway (in terms of gun control).

Yeah, because the US never has any shooting sprees...

It's not personal. It's just war.

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Thursday, August 11, 2011 3:01 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by 1kiki:
It's what happens when people are not invested in the society, b/c the society is not invested in them. Cause and effect.

Why should society be invested in them? True freedom involves personal responsibility, and self determination. Seems those things are an anathema to the socialist culture.

Not enough that the people are provided national defense, clean streets, utilities, fire and police ( ha ) protection.... is it?

No, the folks NOW demand free healthcare, art galleries, jobs, shag lessons...

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Thursday, August 11, 2011 3:13 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:

Not enough that the people are provided national defense, clean streets, utilities, fire and police ( ha ) protection.... is it?

You realize, of course, that in at least some parts of London, they are "provided" none of those things at present.

Seems you agree that they have good reason to riot, since they're getting none of the things even a bare-bones government should "provide"!

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Thursday, August 11, 2011 3:17 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by kpo:
Quote:
Look where it got them. Or Norway (in terms of gun control).

Yeah, because the US never has any shooting sprees...

It's not personal. It's just war.

Yup. We had a couple more just over the past weekend! Heck, it's damned near a national pastime these days.

Wulfie completely dismisses the fact that nearly as many people are killed by guns in the U.S. every single day as were killed by a right-wing religious nut in Norway in a one-time spree.

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Thursday, August 11, 2011 6:42 PM

PIRATENEWS

John Lee, conspiracy therapist at Hollywood award-winner History Channel-mocked SNL-spoofed PirateNew.org wooHOO!!!!!!

Amazon.com jews ban self-defense items in UK Victim Disarmament Zone

by jew Paul Joseph Watson in UK

LONDON -- Following calls by politicians, media and the police for Brits not to buy baseball bats and engage in what was disparagingly termed “vigilantism,” Amazon UK has followed suit by banning self-defense items from its online store, after sales of makeshift weapons soared through the roof as a result of riots plaguing the country.

In the immediate aftermath of widespread looting and rioting which was directed primarily against private homes and local family businesses, Brits left defenseless by a blanket gun ban that makes it virtually impossible to own a private firearm rushed to Amazon to purchase whatever could be used as a weapon to protect their families and property from attack.

The need for self-defense was exacerbated after police in London were ordered to stand down and let the rioting take place for the first three nights of chaos as a result of a Scotland Yard directive.

Sales of aluminum truncheons and baseball bats skyrocketed, with some items achieving sales 50,000 per cent above normal.

However, despite the fact that communities organizing themselves into groups to protect their streets, undermined by being labeled “vigilantes” by the media, did indeed serve to quell the worst of the rioting, politicians like Stella Creasy, MP for Walthamstow which was hit by riots on Monday night, lambasted members of the public for purchasing weapons to defend themselves.

“This crosses the line when it involves weapons,” said Creasy. “That just encourages the sense of fear – we want to reduce tension and fear in the area. People with baseball bats roaming the streets is not helpful: don’t go on Amazon buying them.”

Following suit, Amazon UK today banned the sale of perfectly legal items, including self-defense sprays and Kubotans, short lengths of plastic or steel.

“Amazon has removed several police-style telescopic truncheons from sale on its site as soaring sales of truncheons, baseball bats and other items that could be used as weapons sparked fears of vigilantism in the wake of widespread rioting,” reports the Guardian.

Amazon users were divided about the decision, but many applauded the move despite the fact that police completely failed to protect countless businesses from being burned to the ground and did little to stop violence which led to people being killed.

“Even if they are being bought by respectable home and business owners, they should be banned from sale temporarily,” said V Woolf. “Vigilantism is not the answer. Get these items off the shelves, we are all scared and angry in London and need to know that measures are being taken to help us to feel safe in our cities again.”

But there’s a difference between ‘feeling safe’ and actually being safe in your own home. No amount of government legislation or police deterrence can provide true safety and security, that responsibility rests with the individual. This has been proven in triplicate over the past few nights. As soon as communities started banding together and patrolling their streets, the riots withered and last night there was virtually no trouble at all.

However, the media quickly disparaged people getting together with their neighbors to protect their communities as “vigilantism”. The Metropolitan Police, whose order to its officers to stand down on the first three nights of rioting directly led to the escalation of the chaos, also warned residents not to patrol their communities.

Just like gun control, banning baseball bats only disarms the public and creates victims. Criminals will always be able to acquire weapons of any description because they do not obey laws. Leaving Brits defenseless will only embolden the rioting hordes.

If the UK riots have proven nothing else, they’ve proven that the authorities cannot and will not protect you. It always comes down to the responsibility of the individual and the community to protect their own families, businesses and private property.

http://www.infowars.com/amazon-disarms-brits-by-banning-self-defense-i
tems/

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Thursday, August 11, 2011 10:58 PM

OLDENGLANDDRY

The right-wing perifery would love for the riots to continue, gices them a good excuse for some "Paki-bashin'"
http://www.channel4.com/news/police-clash-with-vigilantes-in-eltham

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Friday, August 12, 2011 1:06 AM

I tend to read PN's posts right up until the first time I run into the word "jew", and then I stop right there and move on to the next post, because at that point I know PN has nothing relevant to add to the conversation.

Anyone else do this?

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Friday, August 12, 2011 3:07 AM

I just scroll through them quickly.

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Friday, August 12, 2011 6:40 AM

PIRATENEWS

John Lee, conspiracy therapist at Hollywood award-winner History Channel-mocked SNL-spoofed PirateNew.org wooHOO!!!!!!

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:

I tend to read PN's posts right up until the first time I run into the word "jew", and then I stop right there and move on to the next post, because at that point I know PN has nothing relevant to add to the conversati

Jeffrey Preston "Jeff" Bezos (born January 12, 1964) is the founder, president, Chief Executive Officer (CEO), and chairman of the board of Amazon.com.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeff_Bezos

American Jewish power for 'Vanity Fair' list
http://www.monstersandcritics.com/news/usa/news/article_1365066.php/Am
erican_Jewish_power_for_Vanity_Fair_list
http://www.jewwatch.com/jew-leaders-list-of-jewish-millionaires.html

Jeff Bezos: Subhuman Piece of jew Dogshit Peddling Child Pornography
http://www.google.com/url?sa=D&q=http://www.wnd.com/index.php%3Ffa%3DP
AGE.view%26pageId%3D226673
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.freemasonry/browse_thread/thread/88
df15f44144a8cc?pli=1

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Friday, August 12, 2011 3:58 PM

Beir bua agus beannacht

Quicko, I do the same thing, I read until he says Jew and then I just skip ahead to what the next person has to say, you'd think that he'd realize that we aren't interested in anything he has to say about Jews, its a real turnoff. But I did like his racetrack thread and this London Burning thread is very relevent, as are some of the things he occasionally posts.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

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Saturday, August 13, 2011 3:17 AM

DREAMTROVE

Quote:
Originally posted by oldenglanddry:
The right-wing perifery would love for the riots to continue, gices them a good excuse for some "Paki-bashin'"
http://www.channel4.com/news/police-clash-with-vigilantes-in-eltham

OED,

Nice dreamworld the press lives in. They've been straining to try to find this sort of stuff, but I'm not convinced it's even happening, as the riots are taking place in black neighborhoods where englands white supremacists would get drawn and quartered, and also the media has really sacrificed all credibility by not reporting that it is damn well known who is fighting whom.

The short of it is this:

First, the UK has copies the US's moronic "war on drugs" and created "operation trident" to mirror our DEA.

Second, this Trident was carrying out an arrest of the victim, a suspect in a crack deal turned murder. Suspect being the operative word. Apparently the misunderstanding began when an undercover cop and a uniform cop appear to have had an exchange of fire, and someone responded by shooting the victim, who was himself armed, but doesn't appear to have fired, and there are conflicting reports on whether his weapon was drawn.

Third. Twoo hundred friends and family gathered at the police station to protest. The police, knowing they had done something wrong, refused to answer. Which was damned stupid of them. They should have said "and investigation is undeerway, justice will be served," whatever.

Fourth. A group of street gangs joined the crowd, spreading rumors in a whisper-circle game manner, until myths abounded about what had happened. The purpose of thijs sort of this is to create chaos for some opportunistic looting by gangs who intent to sell what they loot.

Fifth, pakistanis, who are more likely to be in business, were under attack because they had stuff that gangs wanted. Some pakistani shops get burned down,

Sixth, pakistanis formed vigilante militias to defend themselves because the police weren't doing so (surprise, and here is your racism for you, possibly)

Seventh, black rioters (gang members) killed some pakistanis and youhave yourselves a full on race war, blacks vs. Pakistanks.

Okay, analysis?

1) Wulf is closest of anyone. This is a lot like the LA black on korean riot violence. Both asian and black minorities live in the same neighborhood, and the asians in both cases have a business community, not rich, but seen by the local poor blacks as rich. Black communities in both have a gang community.

2) the victim was himself a gang member, which might motivate other gang members, but most gangs seem unconnected to the victim. This might have explained some of the ignition of the situation however.

3) the police was slow to defend the pakistanis, but this was probably more out of fear of appearing racist by attacking blacks. The media seems even worse at this. Neither would have hesitated to attack nazis even if that were in any way a plausible theory, which it isn't.

4) if you mean opportunistic nazis, i don't know how they would get their hate on in a black neiborhood without getting killed. I think the media is reaching. They keep saying "a mixed crowd" "all sorts of ethnic groups" because they don't want to say "blacks are attacking pakistanis."

I would say the white police are attacking, but they're really more sort of standing there saying "oh dear. Stop it please. Ouch!"

My guess is that pakistanis in britain radically outnumber nazis.

That's what a ship is, you know - it's not just a keel and a hull and a deck and sails, that's what a ship needs.

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Saturday, August 13, 2011 4:07 AM

OLDENGLANDDRY

I THINK you mistook my "paki-bashin" comment, it was meant as an "anti-joke" aimed at certain minorities on the right who see anyone Asian (Indian,Pakistani, Bangladeshi, Nepalese,Sri-Lanken, even half-cast blacks) as a "paki", but it at least led to a very good analysis from you with which I agree.

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Saturday, August 13, 2011 6:01 PM

DREAMTROVE

Quote:
Originally posted by oldenglanddry:
I THINK you mistook my "paki-bashin" comment, it was meant as an "anti-joke" aimed at certain minorities on the right who see anyone Asian (Indian,Pakistani, Bangladeshi, Nepalese,Sri-Lanken, even half-cast blacks) as a "paki", but it at least led to a very good analysis from you with which I agree.

Thanks,

You are absolutely correct that there is an element on the right that would use any opportunity as an opening to attack pakistanis, if not literally, at least a fair number who want them gone, and with tories in power, a police response which seems inadequate by failing to defend pakistanis arouses some suspicion in me that was really getting no press over here in the states.

This is not a new problem however. As anyone familiar with the beatles original recording of "get back" would know.

Initially, I quite liked Cameron, or at least his platform, but I'm very familiar with platform and realith being two different things. He first made me uneasy with his comments about multiculturalism and muslims, and then more so with the blackpool drilling, and now this, and. While I think Blair was an utter disaster, a little pressure on the tories to move more back towards their lib dem allies might be a good idea.

That's what a ship is, you know - it's not just a keel and a hull and a deck and sails, that's what a ship needs.

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Saturday, August 13, 2011 6:36 PM