Majority want tax increase for wealthy and deep spending cuts by Niki2

America loves a winner!

Of course they do. This is what happens when more than 50% don't pay income taxes, and don't have any " skin in the game ".

The top 1% earn 20% of the wealth, but pay 30 % of the taxes.

I guess we should just have them pay ALL the taxes, and fund free healthcare, food, housing, fire, police, schools, roads, bridges, public parks, libraries, art centers, even midnight basketball, huh?

Idiots.

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Wednesday, August 10, 2011 6:00 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

"The top one percent are now estimated to own between forty and fifty percent of the nation's wealth" therefore they should pay AT LEAST that much in taxes. The next nine percent hold about forty percent of the wealth, so they should pay that much in taxes. The bottom ninety percent hold about ten percent of the wealth so they should pay that much in taxes.

The rich - and corporations - are seriously undertaxed.

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Wednesday, August 10, 2011 6:20 PM

America loves a winner!

As usual, you're confusing income taxes ( what we currently DO have ) with WEALTH taxes, ( which we do NOT have - yet )

Classic wealth envy / class warfare nonsense.

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Wednesday, August 10, 2011 6:21 PM

STORYMARK

Only a true Raptard would consider a person's livelihood and existence to be not having "skin in the game".

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

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Wednesday, August 10, 2011 7:38 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

Hmmm ... are we talking about REAL income, or FAKE income after deductions, depreciations, exemptions, exclusions, shelters, havens and fraud? B/c one can't get that much wealth unless one has that much real income - as opposed to the phonied up fake income used for tax purposes.

BTW - if anyone has any rational commentary on this I'd be happy to read it. Which pretty much leaves out Rap 'cause he likes to pretend all income is equally counted, which we all know is not true.

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Thursday, August 11, 2011 1:31 AM

DALEK!

Quote:
Originally posted by Storymark:
Only a true Raptard would consider a person's livelihood and existence to be not having "skin in the game".

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

Not to mention gas tax, sales tax, and any other local taxes.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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Thursday, August 11, 2011 1:39 AM

DALEK!

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:

Of course they do. This is what happens when more than 50% don't pay income taxes, and don't have any " skin in the game ".

The top 1% earn 20% of the wealth, but pay 30 % of the taxes.

I guess we should just have them pay ALL the taxes, and fund free healthcare, food, housing, fire, police, schools, roads, bridges, public parks, libraries, art centers, even midnight basketball, huh?

Idiots.

Sounnds to me you want to close tax loop holes, eliminate tax breaks which is essencially raising taxes, so more people have "skin in the game." How very liberal of you!

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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Thursday, August 11, 2011 2:08 AM

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by m52nickerson:

Sounnds to me you want to close tax loop holes, eliminate tax breaks which is essencially raising taxes, so more people have "skin in the game." How very liberal of you!

Actually, I'm for the FAIRTAX, which would guarantee that everyone participates in the funding of the govt.

Quote:
Originally posted by Storymark:
Only a true Raptard would consider a person's livelihood and existence to be not having "skin in the game".

Livelihood and existence is a bit easier when you're not paying ANY federal income taxes, and are likely getting money FROM the govt ( everyone else who IS paying income taxes ) instead.

It's easier for the majority to want higher taxes for those earning the most, when there's no chance those taxes will be raised on THEM.

This is true democracy. Three people on an island, and two of them vote to kill and eat the 3rd.

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Thursday, August 11, 2011 2:37 AM

DALEK!

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
Actually, I'm for the FAIRTAX, which would guarantee that everyone participates in the funding of the govt.

Everyone does. Income taxes are not the only taxes. The fairtax is an interesting concept, but it is anything but fair. It certainly sounds fair when you say that each person will pay the same % income tax. Unfortunately when you turn that % into real numbers how unfair it is becomes clear.

For example take two people and charge them both a 10% income tax with a $10,000 living expenses deduction.

Person one makes $30,000 per year. After the deduction their taxible income would be $20,000. They would pay $2,000 in taxes and have $28,000 left. That does not seem bad until you split that up per week, about $540 per week after taxes. Around $40 per week is tax. Now $40 a week dollars is not life changing but is can help someone making this much money.

Person two makes $300,000 per year. Taxable income would be $290,000 per year.
They would pay $29,000 in taxes and take home $271,000 per year. That is around $5,200 per week after taxes. Around $560 per week.

If we double the tax rate we see that person one would pay an additional $40 and be down to $500 per week. That may put some strain on that person.

Person two would pay $1,120 per week but still take home $4,080 per week. Sounds like a lot, but probably not going to change that persons life style.

We can see that as we raise the tax rate further the lower incomes get squeezed much more quickly. That means with a fair tax the countries tax rate will have to be low enough for the lowest income folks to afford.

That would mean such a drop in revenues as to make it fairly impossible to run this country.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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Thursday, August 11, 2011 3:12 AM

CONCHOBAR71

Our system is essentially broken. The idea that the poor and impoverished don't pay taxes is a falsehood or at the very least a severe case of spinitis. They pay taxes just like every other American, as it applies to ANY and every dollar spent on a day to day basis. There are very few (if any) items that are tax free. They pay rent (which landowners make profit from and develop wealth), car payments, buy food and clothing, spend money on entertainment when the funds are available. The primary difference is the percentage of their income spent to cover daily living expenses compared those in the Middle class or Upper tiers.

When it comes to cuts, rather then setting maximum income artes to qualify for medicare and social security, ALL regardless of income levels expect to be included in those entitlement programs. Having read about the original intent of Social Security and Medicare, which are 2 of the largest government expenditures, it is easy to see that what was originally meant to protect the downtrodden quickly ballooned into the beast that it is. Couple that with the massive pensions that the governmental upper tier and union upper tier get, it is also easy to see how the deficits grow. They don't grow because the poor are trying to gain a greater share of the pie. They grow, because those who don't NEED those entitlements are still grabbing for them.

I have a neighbor who owns property in Costa Rica and uses his Social Security and money saved on health insurance (because he has an unbelievable retirement package coupled with Medicare) to gamble with 4 months out of the year (Winter time).

At the end of the day, every dollar earned by the poor and middle class IS tax. Which ultimately means that the "true" cost rests on teh shoulders of those who can't afford to save (because their incomes don't allow it) versus those who can save and accrue further wealth through interest and "investment" in the pyramid scam that is Wall Street.

We definitely need to see an increase in Taxes on those in the upper tiers, cuts in Medicare and Social Security to those who do not "need" those entitlements and a closing of tax loopholes that allow the more fortunate to hide their money. Let's be honest here, many who "paid" into the system that are collecting now are/will collect ALOT more than they paid in.

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Thursday, August 11, 2011 3:17 AM

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by m52nickerson:
Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
Actually, I'm for the FAIRTAX, which would guarantee that everyone participates in the funding of the govt.

Everyone does. Income taxes are not the only taxes. The fairtax is an interesting concept, but it is anything but fair. It certainly sounds fair when you say that each person will pay the same % income tax. Unfortunately when you turn that % into real numbers how unfair it is becomes clear.

You are unfamiliar w/ the FAIR tax, and it shows.

www.fairtax.org

Stop fearing yourself, and become educated.

" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Thursday, August 11, 2011 7:13 AM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Excellent point, Geezer. If the quesions aren't posed to an equal number from each "class" (which is actually impossible, I think), you don't get an "average" figure. It seems to me that, logically, they get more responses from all BUT the poor, given it's a telephone survey (I think). How do you think they could poll by class? I'd be interested in knowing.

I think they get less answers from the poor because they're less available--and perhaps less trusting of answering questions, and I note a good number of the "wealthy" have already said they think we should have revenue along with cuts. JMHO.

Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off

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Thursday, August 11, 2011 7:20 AM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Kiki, that's my biggest argument; that "real" income isn't what people are taxed on, that one can only get an accurate figure about who pays what by including all the ways people avoid being taxed and all the ways they achieve income which isn't taxed. Although people keep saying "the wealthy pay (whatever percentage) in taxes", the fact is that is not representational of reality.

I, too, would like to hear what others have to say on this, excluding Raptor, for the reason you mentioned, tho' he's certainly got as much right to chime in as anyone (lest anyone think I'm trying to "stifle" him).

Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off

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Thursday, August 11, 2011 7:25 AM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Thank you Conch, that was beautifully put. Don't think I've met you before; if so, welcome to RWED. I'm assuming you know how dangerous this place is; if not, be forewarned. But I hope you stick around; such a rational and logical voice is very, very welcome!

Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off

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Thursday, August 11, 2011 7:29 AM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Herman Cain explaining the Fairtax...it's to laugh. He gives one side; there are two, and much disagreement between them. Put simplistically and only explaining it from the side of its proponents is ridiculous. Even Wikipedia gives a clearer explanation.

What some will never admit is that everyone pays taxes on virtually everything, which is a very pertinent point. The poorest among us pay taxes on almost everything they buy, income tax is only part of it. It's so much more convenient to say the poor "suck the teat" of government and pay NO taxes. If Raptor were ever to admit that and stop blathering about how the wealthy suffer to "carry" everyone else, I'd probably fall over in a faint. Not something I worry about happening.

Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off

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Thursday, August 11, 2011 9:44 AM

DALEK!

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
You are unfamiliar w/ the FAIR tax, and it shows.

www.fairtax.org

Stop fearing yourself, and become educated.

No fear just a mistake. I was thinking flat tax.

http://www.factcheck.org/taxes/unspinning_the_fairtax.html

The fairtax system would not be 23% if it was to take in the same amount of revinue as the current system. The 23% is tax included which is not the same as standard sales tax. If calculated if as standard sales tax is it would be 30%, and to truely be neutral that 30% would have to be 32%.

The fairtax system would also increase the tax burden on people making $24,000 per year to $75,000 per year.

The fairtax system also claims that it will lower prices because it removes hidden taxes. That is quite impossible if the fair tax system is really deficit neutral as those hidden taxes would still be made up by the new system.

I also found on the fairtax site they claim that Florida relies solely on sales tax. That is a false statement. Florida also collects property taxes and a number of other fees. Florida also relied on high impact fees from new construction. Since the economic slow down Florida has been in dire straights because of the lack of construction and sales tax revenues. In fact I think only California has been worse off.

They also sight the "Irish Miracle" in which Ireland did not raise taxes like other EU countries as a success story. I don't think we have to go over what has happened with Ireland.

It should also be noted that the fairtax system lowers tax burdens on higher incomes, the AKA Rich. The fact is that every time we have seen a reduction of taxes on the rich we have seen the wealth gap increase.

I think you should read FactChecks article on the FairTax system.

http://www.factcheck.org/taxes/unspinning_the_fairtax.html

also

http://mises.org/daily/1814

and

http://mises.org/daily/1975

and lastly

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/article/2008/jan/23/adding-fai
rtax/

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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Thursday, August 11, 2011 9:55 AM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

You have, of course, been here long enough to not expect him to READ anything, to change his mind, or to suddenly become reasonable and civil, right? Just wanted to be sure, lest you be disappointed.

Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off

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Thursday, August 11, 2011 10:27 AM

DALEK!

Quote:
Originally posted by Niki2:
You have, of course, been here long enough to not expect him to READ anything, to change his mind, or to suddenly become reasonable and civil, right? Just wanted to be sure, lest you be disappointed.

Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off

]

I know, but....

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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Thursday, August 11, 2011 10:41 AM