Impressed, or Appalled ? by Fremdfirma

Beir bua agus beannacht

I'm going with apalled here.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

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Monday, August 8, 2011 7:57 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

AUGUST 8--Using a hidden video camera, a Texas man filmed four naked, honey-drenched teenage girls while they showered at a church where he worked as a youth pastor.

At the time they were two 15 year olds and two 17 year olds. I am more than appalled.

For punishment, he needs to be made to stand naked in the stocks for a day, with the most humiliating parts like fear shinkage and bathroom time put on youtube. I'm sure some people will get as big a kick out of it as he got by filming them.

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Monday, August 8, 2011 9:54 PM

KANEMAN

Who could be Impressed? Just asking.

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Tuesday, August 9, 2011 1:07 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by kaneman:
Who could be Impressed? Just asking.

Maybe surprised that they weren't younger and male ?

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Tuesday, August 9, 2011 1:31 AM

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)

Quote:
The woman, who was 17 at the time of the “Fear Factor” incident, added that Fortenberry confessed to secretly videotaping three other girls (two 15-year-olds and a 17-year-old). When confronted by a police officer, Fortenberry would not deny having filmed the teenagers. “The defendant would only say that he has done things that he should not have done.”

Either way, Texas prosecutors today announced that they could not pursue charges against Fortenberry since the incident occurred more than three years ago, beyond the statute of limitations for the improper photography/visual recording count. The felony complaints, which were filed against Fortenberry on August 4, were dismissed today by the Harris County District Attorney’s office. (2 pages)

Why is there only a three-year statute of limitations on such an act?

I wonder how many of the fathers of those girls have guns... That "pastor" might be on the fast track to meet his dear and fluffy lord face-to-face.

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Tuesday, August 9, 2011 4:03 AM

Ambivalent!

The fact that one of the girls started dating the preacher afterward (not sure how that works) might suggest that there was more consent here than implied, so it's LESS creepy, and at least it wasn't rape or molestation.

But a thirty year old priest video-taping girls in a shower is always pretty creepy in general.

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Tuesday, August 9, 2011 7:08 AM

I'm really surprised no one saw the looming trap in that first post given that I all but gift wrapped it in xmas tree lights and tinsel.

Oh the shock, the horror, the outrage....

And how is what this asshole did any real different than what goes on every day, at every airport in america ?

If it's okay for some asshole in one uniform to do it, why is it not okay for some other asshole in a different uniform to do it ?

And NOW you know how I feel about the just-doing-our-job jackboots of TSA/DHS, and why I encourage local merchants to refuse service to them and excommunicate them socially, now you really UNDERSTAND.

Point ?

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

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Tuesday, August 9, 2011 1:31 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
Ambivalent!

The fact that one of the girls started dating the preacher afterward (not sure how that works) might suggest that there was more consent here than implied, so it's LESS creepy, and at least it wasn't rape or molestation.

But a thirty year old priest video-taping girls in a shower is always pretty creepy in general.

But isn't he guilty of child pornography if he still has the tape?

And I'm pretty sure that there's really no level of "consent" involved when you're talking about 15 year-old girls.

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Tuesday, August 9, 2011 1:47 PM

Not for sex, no, when one is older that the magic number. Pornography is an element I hadn't considered, though.

Consent is a little blurry sometimes. Tell a fifteen year old she can't have sex with her seventeen year old boyfriend. It ain't happening.

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Tuesday, August 9, 2011 2:08 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
Not for sex, no, when one is older that the magic number. Pornography is an element I hadn't considered, though.

Consent is a little blurry sometimes. Tell a fifteen year old she can't have sex with her seventeen year old boyfriend. It ain't happening.

Yeah, but when a 30-year-old is videotaping her, HE'S the one committing the felony!

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Tuesday, August 9, 2011 3:34 PM

PIRATENEWS

John Lee, conspiracy therapist at Hollywood award-winner History Channel-mocked SNL-spoofed PirateNew.org wooHOO!!!!!!

Videotape 4 naked honey-soaked above-the-age-of-consent teenagers...

I would never ever do such a thing.

Never. Not ever.

Not even if all charges were dismissed and God told me to.

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Tuesday, August 9, 2011 3:36 PM

Yeah.

I didn't realize though that there was some written statute about consent in that law and under-ageness. I mean, it would make sense if there were one, it hadn't occurred to me.

But, on the other hand, there's clearly holes in the law, because it seems to me like the law assumes that parents photographing and videotaping their own kids is okay, when sometimes it isn't.

Might be there are ways that we should define consent a little more strongly.

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Tuesday, August 9, 2011 4:32 PM

Sorry, PN, but 15 is definitely NOT above the age of consent in Texas. Age of consent for sexual intercourse in Texas is 17, but even then, a 17-year-old can't legally be a stripper or a porn actress, so video of such material would almost certainly constitute kiddy porn.

Sorry to disappoint you and your "god".

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Tuesday, August 9, 2011 7:21 PM

Beir bua agus beannacht

I think there is a difference between feelings and actions. Then the thing in the middle is talking about it. The fact that you, Frem, talked about possibly being impressed with his enginuity is worrisome to me. If you think it but don't say it then it isn't anyone's business, but when you say it it sort of starts becoming other people's business, eeeewwwww, I think my respect for you suffers a lil' here. I see you were trying to make a point about the airport people but it was lost on me. At least you didn't say you'd like to _do this because that would have been really bad in my opinion.

The fact that he started dating one of the girls later is kind of ooky. At my church there is this code of unspoken conduct that if someone was ever in your class when they were under 18 you just don't ever date them later, even if they're grown now, its just odd you know, even if they grow up to be cool and like hanging out with them, they must stay a friend and nothing more.

This whole thing got worse in my mind during today.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

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Tuesday, August 9, 2011 7:46 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

Wow, I can't believe the things some people are assuming ... that ONE of the girls LATER dated the minister means they ALL gave consent AT THE TIME? ... to an act which was secret ( it was a HIDDEN camera after all) and which the minister informed that ONE girl of only years AFTER THE FACT? .... and she was so 'OK' with it after she found out she informed authorities?

Is this time traveling consent? Consent by ESP?

Hellooo ....... anyone home?

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Tuesday, August 9, 2011 7:55 PM

Beir bua agus beannacht

Wow, Kiki and I are in agreement here, complete agreement.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

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Tuesday, August 9, 2011 8:04 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

High five!

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Tuesday, August 9, 2011 8:56 PM

Oh heavens no, Riona, I find *what* he did pretty damn repulsive, even MORE so cause he apparently wound up dating (a polite euphemism for in-bed-with, lets admit it) one of em, which makes it downright freakin creepy!

But the sheer unmitigated audacity of the sumbitch is indeed "impressive", impressively horrifying, mind you, but I cadged the language to give the opposite impression on purpose so that folks didn't see the set-up for a future comparison to what the TSA does, and why it should be illegal.

One can be completely offended by the WHAT, and still be amused by the HOW, without moral commentary on the deed itself.

FYI, I have that rule too - much to Wendy's displeasure and annoyance, I feel that any relationship with someone who has previously been under your care due to age or incapacity is immoral, being that it is exploitive and predatory, corrupted from the get-go by that imbalance of power.

Speaking of such things though, they finally put Warren Jeffs in a damn cage where he belongs, forever.
(This one's for you, Siggy, I TOLD you he'd pay the piper!)

Anyhows, thing is, how on earth can we possibly reconcile our horror with what this creep did, with our meek acceptance of that very self same thing, done in public no less, by the TSA ?

And there's much more to the topic I've not time to properly address at the moment, too.

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

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Wednesday, August 10, 2011 3:01 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by RionaEire:
Wow, Kiki and I are in agreement here, complete agreement.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

Right there with y'all. Kind of why I made the point that there's no way even a 17-year-old can "consent" to being videotaped nude by hidden camera. Even if she found out later, and even if she WAS "okay" with it AFTER THE FACT (and I've seen no evidence that she was), it was still a felony when he did it.

And I remain appalled that there's only a 3-year limit on filing charges for such a thing.

At the very, very least, this should serve as probably cause to search his home, computers, etc. - and I'd bet money he's got kiddy porn all over the place, because he certainly seems to get off on it.

I'm not "impressed" by his audacity in admitting it to the girl, because I don't think that was really a bold move. He probably still doesn't think he REALLY did anything wrong, so doesn't see any problem admitting it. And that means he'd incredibly likely to still be engaging in such behavior. And the inability of authorities to charge him only shores up his beliefs. :(

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Wednesday, August 10, 2011 3:42 AM

I didn't exactly read the article.

What? I'm lazy.

And I did say it was still creepy, just didn't think of the pornography thing.

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Wednesday, August 10, 2011 12:48 PM

Beir bua agus beannacht

I'm glad to hear that Frem. Wendy is like your daughter and if you did anything with her I'd strongly dislike you and we couldn't be friends anymore. I think she probably idolizes you and maybe she thinks that since she loves you very much that things should ... evolve, her not having a lot of experience with various kinds of love etc. I think with time she'll come to understand that there are indeed different kinds of love out there and that she and you are best off having familial love for each other instead of the other.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

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Wednesday, August 10, 2011 6:52 PM

This is, sadly, a common theme with those who have been abused or never shown affection or approval in a manner other than sexual - it gives these girls a damned twisted view of love, you see ?

This is one thing that rooks me pretty bad about the fear and hysteria whipped up by either well meaning idiots freaking out about the scale of the problem, or bastards with an agenda doing so as a route to power, they make fathers fear to have *any* contact or interaction with their daughters lest it be misinterpreted, this is one thing I am annoyed with about Kiras family since her parents are seperated and there's a stupid little dispute about her parentage which NEITHER of them really WANT resolved cause the answer might shatter their illusions.
(She believes Kira is his, He doesn't, and neither one will approve, or let the other approve, a paternity test)
But also is that factor, in that he completely ignores her, for the most part, which is one of the things which lead to that separation.

Now, issue with that kinda thing, is that fathers have a role to play, it is likely the childs first encounter with affection and approval in a manner and fashion that is decidedly non-sexual, the chance for them to learn that those are SEPERATE THINGS, and all too many parents blow it, out of ignorance or fear - what kind of a world is ours when a father is afraid to hug his own child, lest he be accused of something ?

And bastards like the sumbitch the original article is about make it all the worse, cause they operate within the "Circle of Trust", which is frankly where most abuse comes from - the whole stranger-danger thing is by comparison almost unworthy of notice, but of course most folk prefer a comforting fallacy to ugly realities, and sadly tend to make laws based on the fallacy, which is somewhat ridiculous in that this isn't a problem government is equipped or effectively able to handle, it's societys problem, but not so easy to solve when folks fear getting involved, fear (quite rightfully) being smeared, harrassed or even worse just for addressing it or bringing it to peoples attention, or stumbling over one of our zillion petty laws even those who write em can't keep track of - and without that involvement, it's right damn hard to break the cycle as victims in their turn become abusers, which also forments the cycle of fear that our nation is so steeped in that it affects every action and reaction.

Quote:
“As long as the child will be trained not by love, but by fear, so long will humanity live not by justice, but by force. As long as the child will be ruled by the educator’s threat and by the father’s rod, so long will mankind be dominated by the policeman’s club, by fear of jail, and by panic of invasion by armies and navies.”

Boris Sidis, from “A lecture on the abuse of the fear instinct in early education” in Journal of Abnormal Psychology, 1919.

But then that fear is also how Circle of Trust abusers get their hooks in, too - fear of what'll happen if they reject the wishes of an "authority", and so on and so forth - till our culture of fear is so toxic it starts degrading the very humanity of the people suffering under the burden.

Most of Wendy's issues come from spending so much of her life in a moral vaccuum, she often doesn't see where or why something is right or wrong, and sometimes her questions about why something is, or isn't immoral bear thinking upon, but not in this case cause of the issues I've already addressed - there's also a certain sense of entitlement goin on there, in that the world has pretty badly treated her, and thus when SHE *wants* something, she has a tendancy to feel it's owed to her, and the world just don't work that way, besides which there's also aside from everything and anything else the fact that *I* said no, that MY will in opposition to the idea, and if there's one thing any anarchist respects, it's the free will of others.
Don't mean she's all that happy about it though.

Anyhows, when a young girl is never shown approval and affection in any other way, or no way at all, it sets them up for trouble down the line - there was a Manga series that kind of delved into this, but the topic itself was so offensive that the publishing company (Seven Seas, I think) prettymuch crapped a cinderblock at the notion of ever releasing it here and ditched the rights as fast as possible.
But... you know, better late than never, they *can* learn the difference at any age, so long as one is consistent and refuses to play into that game, believe me this isn't the first occasion of such a thing, the trust-bond and parlay off the rescue used to deal with the psychiatrically iatrogenic does quite often manifest in those kind of advances - in fact there's an issue around that with conventional mental health personnel no one seems to want to address or talk about either, but you can't solve a problem when no one is willing to discuss or address it.

I just hope she doesn't turn resentful and wind up hating me about it, that happened often enough, too.

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

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Wednesday, August 10, 2011 8:33 PM

Beir bua agus beannacht

Well I think being consistant with her is the right thing to do. Maybe she'll find a young man her age that she fancies that would be suited to her. I don't consider her touched from what you've described, so if I were her friend or looking out for her I'd be fine with her going out with whom she chooses without worrying about consent issues etc. Now when it comes to touched folk I'm a lot more picky because I'm very overprotective and don't like the idea of unequal or nonmutual consent, did I mention that I'm realllly overprotective about that? Yes I said it twice on purpose.

I think its important that you don't chicken out when she tries to pull that on you, because if you do chicken out it says that you aren't going to stick around and help her along through this. I totally agree with you about fathers by the way, they shouldn't fear being close with their kids. My dad and I are very close, we always have been, I'm so fortunate to have him in my life, I don't know anyone who is as close with their dad as I am.

Its important for girls especially to have good solid father figures in their lives because they tend to think men ought to behave somewhat like their male role models, meaning that if they have good male role models they tend to choose better men for partners later on, whereas if they have crappy fathers or male role models they don't have as much of an idea subconsciously of what is good to look for in men later. The fact that Kira's father has distanced himself from her isn't a good thing, she may start seeking attention in other ways from other men and boys and it won't be the type of attention she's currently missing out on, it will be other types of attention if you know what I mean. How did track go for her in the spring by the way? As a side note I don't understand why his bio status would make a difference to him when it comes to his relationship with Kira, if he's angry at anyone he should be angry at Kira's mom for rutting with others, but he shouldn't ever take that out on Kira, he raised her so she is his daughter, no matter what the tests say, don't you think?

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

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Thursday, August 11, 2011 9:03 AM

Oh I agree, I never saw why the actual biological parentage is so damn important to people, it doesn't make a lotta sense to me that just cause someone was the source of sperm or egg that there's some magical-mystical bond there, especially if they've been uninvolved in actually raising the child - but then my viewpoint might be skewed some cause I have effectively "raised" to some degree a lot of abandoned or rejected kids too.

As for Kiras parents there's plenty of blame to go round, if one wanted to, and the only reason it's any kind of issue is that they subscribe at least in part to that ridiculous puritan morality I find so offensive - imma poly, so with me it's all about trust rather than fidelity, but they got issues there too, although I haven't poked my nose into it cause factually it's none of my damn business, nor do I want it to be.
Funny though, one doesn't tell Kira something you don't want shouted from the mountains, and apparently her mom did at one point ask her how she'd feel about me as potential-daddy and she was like "Blecch, he's too OLD!", *laughing*
Anyhows, I mislike the notion myself cause nobody freakin asked me and I dun wanna get all involved in their family drama, times past I woulda worried also about dragging them into my conflicts but that's not so much an issue any more.

I don't worry about Kira too much, she's at that age where they first discover boys, there's one she thinks is all dreamy in her school and far as she's concerned the rest all have cooties, lol.
Her ventures into track are going well, a lil too well, cause even now they have to give the others a head start to even make it fair - she struggles in the longer runs cause of throwing all her effort up front and failing to pace herself, but she's happy, sooo....

To her mind my role is something like Doc Brown from Back to the Future, the crack-brained mad scientist who lives down the way, and go-to-guy for all those questions no one else seems able or willing to answer - currently one of her interests is in learning to draw Manga, but she's kind of at the stick figure stage of that right now.

What concerns me, although I wouldn't say so to any of em, is how our world and fate seems to work, it's always these types of people, with so much potential and good hearts, that always seem to fall to misadventure early, almost as if some external force is deliberately culling out those who would serve as inspiration to allow us to rise above the misery and horror of this world - my nephews girlfriend was a lot like this, and I had high hopes for them and then one day at the bus stop, WHAM, killed instantly by a car that drifted out of it's lane...
I don't really have the words for it, but stuff like that is one reason I am Maltheistic, cause if the powers that run this universe so enjoy crushing those who embody the best hopes of humanity before they can even get off the ground, what monsters must they be ?

So that, more than anything else, is what I fear for her - emotionally she's pretty well-adjusted, far as I can tell.

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

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Thursday, August 11, 2011 11:16 AM

Beir bua agus beannacht

Well maybe Kira's crush will like her too and they can go out on a date. I love Doc Brown, one of my all time favorite movie charactors. Maybe Kira could focus on short distance running, 100 yard dash and so forth.

A story of Genghis that relates: Temujin (as the great Khan was known before he ascended to power) had a beautiful wife called Borte to whom he'd been betrothed most of the way through his boyhood. They had not been long wed when she was kidnapped by the Merkets, a rival tribe. He and his best friend/blood brother Jamuqa planned and carried out a raid to rescue her and bring her home which was successful. About nine months later Borte had a baby son that they named Jochi, it was Temujin's son and he loved him very very much, being their first born and all. Temujin never once cared whether Jochi was biologically his, Borte was indeed raped by the Merkets and so biologically Jochi may or may have sprung from Temujin's loins, but that was irrelevent to Temujin because Jochi was his son in every sense of the word that mattered.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

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Thursday, August 11, 2011 2:03 PM