In America, Sharia law only applies to children by dreamtrove

REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

In America, Sharia law only applies to children

POSTED BY: DREAMTROVE
UPDATED: Friday, August 19, 2011 09:37
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VIEWED: 1800
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Thursday, August 18, 2011 5:38 AM

Frem, feel free to flip out:

http://patdollard.com/2011/08/mo-girl-7th-grade-special-education-stud
ent-expelled-for-being-raped/

The girl was also charged with a "public display of affection" for being raped. The school district refuses to do anything against the attacker, and made the victim apologize to her attacker, and then forced her to return to class with him to be raped again. The boy admits to raping her but has no interest in stopping. The solution? Expell the victim. Don't worry, the admitted unashamed rapist won't be able to rape her now, he'll have to make do raping someone else.

That's what a ship is, you know - it's not just a keel and a hull and a deck and sails, that's what a ship needs.

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Thursday, August 18, 2011 5:59 AM

PIRATENEWS

John Lee, conspiracy therapist at Hollywood award-winner History Channel-mocked SNL-spoofed PirateNew.org wooHOO!!!!!!

That's probably one of those schools hiding videocams in the girls showers, connected to the internets.

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Thursday, August 18, 2011 6:52 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Hello,

I am appalled at this. I hate to believe that such things happen, but they seem to happen all the time. The stories we hear each have a hundred untold tales behind them.

--Anthony

_______________________________________________

“If you are not free to choose wrongly and irresponsibly, you are not free at all”

Jacob Hornberger

“Freedom is not worth having if it does not connote freedom to err. It passes my comprehension how human beings, be they ever so experienced and able, can delight in depriving other human beings of that precious right.”

Mahatma Gandhi

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Thursday, August 18, 2011 8:04 AM

BYTEMITE

Quote:
and saying the girl “neglected to use reasonable means to protect herself.”

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/FlatWhat

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Thursday, August 18, 2011 9:39 AM

M52NICKERSON

DALEK!

What the school is doing is appaling. The school officals should go bye-bye!

...oh and since the boy confessed to the attacks in the end, under Sharia Law he would most likely be put to death.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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Thursday, August 18, 2011 9:57 AM

DREAMTROVE

Quote:
Originally posted by m52nickerson:
What the school is doing is appaling. The school officals should go bye-bye!

...oh and since the boy confessed to the attacks in the end, under Sharia Law he would most likely be put to death.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

I actually agree, sharia law is more fair than the media portrayal of it, but it wasn't meant literally, it was intended as a snark.

That's what a ship is, you know - it's not just a keel and a hull and a deck and sails, that's what a ship needs.

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Thursday, August 18, 2011 9:59 AM

M52NICKERSON

DALEK!

Quote:
Originally posted by dreamtrove: it was intended as a snark.

Okay, I was not sure.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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Thursday, August 18, 2011 3:15 PM

DREAMTROVE

Bump for Frem

That's what a ship is, you know - it's not just a keel and a hull and a deck and sails, that's what a ship needs.

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Thursday, August 18, 2011 3:39 PM

FREMDFIRMA

*blink*

You're acting like this is an uncommon thing ?
We all know it's not, it's part and parcel of why I hate the public education system so bloody much.

I mean, it's almost policy that if a girl is mishandled in school, and dares actually make an issue of it, the very first thing they DO is demand to know what she did to provoke it, followed by siccing the school shrink and his cronies in the local Gov on her, calling her a liar and a whore - if she continues to make an issue of it, then follows ostracisation, labelling as a troublemaker and eventually exile/expulsion, this is in fact so common it barely warrants comment, the only surprising thing here is that anyone reported on it.
And mind you it's far, far worse in religious education, of course.

And Byte, it's worse in that regard than you think, cause if she DID use sufficient means to protect herself who do you think would have been the one in trouble in that case ?

There's a girl at the college down the road, we'll call her "Sarah" to protect her identity, who got sick and tired of the way they're conveniently disarmed and all but handed on a platter to predators, I did point out a while back that one of those predators was actually a member of the campus police - who's MO involved offering a ride back to the dorm and then assaulting the girl, heaven knows how many times he got away with that and it was covered up by EMU officials before being more or less caught in the act publicly and they couldn't keep a lid on it no more.

Well, Sarah managed to use certain contacts to aquire a stungun, not these pathetic little poppers which just sting and piss off an attacker, one of the old ones which'll completely debilitate one, which are mostly illegal nowadays and electroshock weapons are universally illegal in Michigan (which is currently the root of a hilarious legal fiasco cause NO provision exists within that act for law enforcement, making every cop in the state guilty of a Felony) - something which you may have noticed works like this...
Girl stands off rapist with weapon, state or locality outlaws the weapon, surely some of you have noticed this.

And one of the local thugs on campus, and lets not pretend EVERYONE doesn't know who they are even if the campus looks the other way as hard as they can, made the mistake of accosting her, and she didn't just zap him and run, she WORKED HIM OVER with the damn thing till the battery gave out, hey, if it's good enough for the police, right ?
Of course, the campus officials really, really wanna know who did it - and even when it was brought up that given his history he prolly collected those electrical burns from layin his hands on someone improperly, the officials scoffed and sneered it off - which again hearkens back to my "attitude" about folk who strip folks of their defenses and hand them over on a plate to bad actors, grrrr.
Ironically at the current time the problem of sexual assault on campus seems to have dropped off a cliff cause none of the usual suspects wants to play testicle-zap roulette and risk running afoul of whoevers got that horrible thing, especially since other girls have insinuated that there's more than one, heh.

Sadly enough PN also has a point, in that a similar act by the former assistant administrator was responsible for both his quick retirement and the removal of the camera from the second floor girls bathroom without quite ever admitting it was there in the first place - the only thing those damn cameras protect is the faculty, and when some crack brained bastard turns them AGAINST that faculty and exposes them to the horror of accountability, they start screaming to have em removed even though they blew so much budget to install em that I hadda buy my niece her textbooks that year myself, meh.

The basic attitude behind this, is the same one so aptly described by L Neil Smith regarding the relationship of government and governed.

Quote:
Listen to them closely and you'll hear that we might as well be different species. They are an elite -- near demigods who are above everything, including the law. We are less than nothing, of no concern to them except for the tasks we perform and the wealth we create for them to steal. If some of us can play the violin, create beautiful paintings or sculptures, or bring audiences to tears with our singing or acting, those are just "stupid pet tricks" without real value or significance.

If some of us are attacked by others, what difference does guilt or innocence make when you're talking about livestock? Animals that defend themselves are no different from the animals being defended against -- unruly cattle are unruly cattle. Any ability we may develop to protect ourselves from predators simply isn't worth the risk it poses to our "owners"

Public school is kind of a microcosm of that, only the 'governed' have even less rights due to being under the magic number, all but legally regarded as livestock or pets - which is why it's such a useful testbed for the powers that be for measures that do eventually wind up used against people as a whole, and why I feel it's so important to rush to the defense of people that most of society sees as subhuman - how you treat the least of your people has meaning in how you treat them all.

So part of the reason, on a social and administrative level, that the notion of self-defense is so appalling to them, is part of the same reasons parents refuse to teach their kids self-defense or allow them to learn it, if they'll stand up to others, sooner or later they might stand up to YOU!
IMHO, any decent parent or administrator would see that as a good thing, as an expression of properly developed personhood and realize that negotiation may prevail in lieu of force, but too many fail the test, wrapped up in the never-ending chain of the cycle of abuse, of which this girl was an unfortunate casualty, collateral damage - THEIR attitude is that you can't make an omlette without breaking eggs, the ends justify the means, and all that merry rot, despite their whole basis being as much a fallacy as how women would be uncontrollable lunatics if you weren't allowed to beat your wife into submission, same principle, really.

Also worth remembering that I went to some of those "second-chance" schools, and yes we *DID* occasionally have female students, even in the Phoenix Program - would you care to guess how they usually got there ?

In fact, that *WAS* my first experience with recovering someone gone catatonic, a girl who pyschologically imploded cause of treatment much like this, who sat in the back of the classroom next to me cause I almost never said anything to anybody, and after a while I couldn't stand it no more and tried to get through to her, I felt a certain bizarre kinship in our mutual silence, and eventually we'd even started to walk towards the lunchroom, getting a few steps closer each day as I lead her by the hand - till some nitwit took issue with my new "girlfriend" and started a brawl which resulted in me being transferred out of that school cause I put him in the trauma ward for it - thankfully one of the other boys in class was kind of sweet on her and took up where I left off, in fact I met them years later, happily married and apparently somewhat normalized even though he was still pretty aggressive and she was still painfully shy.

I mean, did it never occur to anyone exactly how and why I got to be so damn rabid about self-defense and the respect of personhood and property, that witnessing pointblank the damage caused might have colored my viewpoints a little ?

Until we start respecting kids as human beings, until we acknowledge their personhood legally, accept their human rights, including that of self-defense, even from us - this isn't going to change.

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

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Thursday, August 18, 2011 3:40 PM

FREMDFIRMA

Quote:
Originally posted by dreamtrove:
Bump for Frem

I was workin on it!
*snort*

-F

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Thursday, August 18, 2011 3:51 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important

"Until we start respecting kids as human beings, until we acknowledge their personhood legally, accept their human rights, including that of self-defense, even from us - this isn't going to change."

Hello,

I just finished re-reading Ender's Game. It often made me think of you, Frem.

This quote in particular encapsulated much:

Quote:

"They have a word for people like us. They call us 'children,' and they treat us like mice."

-Valentine

--Anthony

_______________________________________________

“If you are not free to choose wrongly and irresponsibly, you are not free at all”

Jacob Hornberger

“Freedom is not worth having if it does not connote freedom to err. It passes my comprehension how human beings, be they ever so experienced and able, can delight in depriving other human beings of that precious right.”

Mahatma Gandhi

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Thursday, August 18, 2011 5:01 PM

FREMDFIRMA

Uh, yeah - folks that ran the schools I went to should be damn glad I didn't read that earlier than I did, although I'm not sure when it was originally published, cause how he handled Stilson was generally the same sort of mentality I viewed it with, the moment you lay hands on me it's "for real", and better to finish it good there and then, than have it go on and on and on...

Quote:
In the moment when I truly understand my enemy, understand him well enough to defeat him, then in that very moment I also love him. I think it’s impossible to really understand somebody, what they want, what they believe, and not love them the way they love themselves. And then, in that very moment when I love them... I destroy them. I make it impossible for them to ever hurt me again. I grind them and grind them until they don’t exist.
-Ender Wiggin.

It was only later I realized doing that psychologically was just as effective - but if you wanna talk mindset though, Lizbeth Salander is close enough to be damn near exact, Andrew Vachss calls them "Children of the Secret", and I refer to them as "Dark Sparks", but the concept is essentially the same.

You also really ought to read Blade of Tyshalle, if you can find an affordable copy since it's gone cult-classic.

Quote:
The Board of Governors: This seems a steep price for so small a service: to crush a powerless cripple.
Tan'elKoth: Doubly fools. He does have power. One power: the power to devote himself absolutely to a single goal, to be ruthless with himself and all else in its pursuit. It is the only power he needs - because, unlike the great mass of men, he is aware of this power, and he is willing, even happy, to use it.

Of course I find endless sarcastic-ironic amusement in the fact that Caine has himself with T'Passe the same problem I got with Yuriko...

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

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Thursday, August 18, 2011 5:19 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

fuck.

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Thursday, August 18, 2011 6:14 PM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht

That is horrible, I want to beat people up now.

Frem, I'm glad your friend came round from the catatonia and is doing lots better now.

Okay, I went back and read the article, i often don't if it isn't recopied here, and its just awful. Special education doesn't straight up mean that the girl is touched, but if she is then I'm extra pissed off that this happened..

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

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Thursday, August 18, 2011 8:42 PM

DREAMTROVE

She might have just been in special ed as a lame attempt to separate her from the boy who had also raped her the previous year. I've seen them do this sort of thing before. He's 16 and she's 12, curious how his identity is protected as a juvenile offender but hers isn't, though it wasn't all that difficult to find out who he was. I suspect if he'd been a geek instead of a jock there would have been less effort to protect him. School admins value their little intramural wars. I guess itraises the resale value of the slave stock.

The other thing that struck me is that something else is going on here: schools are deliberately trying to create an environment of hell to reinforce their power structure.

That's what a ship is, you know - it's not just a keel and a hull and a deck and sails, that's what a ship needs.

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Friday, August 19, 2011 6:27 AM

FREMDFIRMA

You only just noticed ?
This was something I was ALREADY fighting against back in 1978, and the NEA did a report flat stating that if the trend continued it would eventually lead to mass-shooting incidents in schools, so they can't say they didn't see it coming and I suspect the *actual* reaction to that underneath the obligatory oh-what-a-tragedy lip service was "cool, cause we can use that to justify..." yadda yadda, admittedly I got some bias there cause at least one of the "second chance" schools I was in was a deliberate experiment in social darwinism.

And no, it's not so much the intramural wars they value as a nice, predictable social dynamic involving a lot of divide-and-conquer in almost exactly the fashion of a prison warden playing gang factions against each other to keep them to busy to stand up to him and the screws...
Which wasn't much of a stretch regarding Malone, an administrator I hadda deal with who *WAS* a former juvie prison warden brought in by that fucker Haroth after we tried to assassinate him cause he started taking the threat we presented kinda seriously after that.

That was the year of the "unholy alliance", too - I'd been trying without much success to get students to reach across those artificial divisions and ally against the administration, but after the dress code war at the school my niece now attends every time that looked like it was getting anywhere they kicked me off to another school somewhere else, and when I finally pulled it off they wanted rid of me for good, only I pre-empted them by exploiting a loophole that allowed me to take the GED early - and I will FOREVER treasure the look on Malones face when I pitched my "walking papers" on her desk as a fait accompli, as my mother was completely onboard with the notion since she was as sick of their bullshit as I was.
(As in, she signed off on it, as required by law)

Anyhows, yes they deliberately foster an environment of fear and play divide and conquer, which causes a low-level form of hyperarousal or even a mild (or even not-so-mild) variation on PTSD, which manifests most of the time in the very symptoms often mistaken for ADD/ADHD, inability to sit still, trouble concentrating, easily distracted, these are also indicators of a consistent fear response, caused by that very environment, and then used as excuses to make it more oppressive.

Mind you, before anyone gets the notion I am anti-education, I happen to be very, very much PRO-education, but very little actual education happens past the very basics in public schools, and the horrors within are often too high a goddamn price, which is why I favor Sudbury Model or Freeschool, which can be adapted and scaled to the needs of individual students without having to rewrite the whole damn system, AND without having to hammer down square pegs to fit the mold.

Thing is, the pecking order social dynamic is predictable, structured, consistent - thus conserving any real effort on behalf of administrators to do their job, predators and prey, it's the only way these semi-sociopaths you get in public school administration are really capable of viewing the world, so when something outside the established social order happens...
They get real pissed off about it.

I mean that specifically in regards to being harrassed or pushed around by the jocks, they see this as how the world works, some resistance is going to happen, and get crushed utterly, often with a little HELP from the administration via disarmament, punitive measures against the resistors or whatnot - that's why the whole tell-a-teacher thing is regarded quite properly with the scorn and derision it deserves, because it gets the poor fool who does it labelled a rat, a tattletale, paints the bulleye on their back and for a fact the administrator is going to tell them during the obligatory lip-service lecture who did it, thus justifying even more agression against that individual, and that's if they haven't figured it out themselves by them.

Same with just-walk-away, or it-takes-two-to-fight... it don't, I PROVED that when I stood there with both hands in my pockets and *LET* Ian pound on me, glaring right into his eyes, refusing to go down or even back up, and after they broke up the "fight" and suspended us BOTH (due to their idiotic policy) despite it being a complete act of aggression, one I let happen to make a fucking point of it - care to guess who got in more trouble at the end of all that ?
That was actually kind of a rarity by then, I was well known for such a vicious response once provoked that short of getting out of range or beating me unconscious there wasn't any way to stop what you started, and because of that I was left very very much ALONE, to the point of near total social isolation since even other outcasts hated me cause they felt they were then taking "my share" of the obligatory harrassment and abuse, and I hated them for meekly accepting their "place" in the pecking order.

So when someone bucks the system, stands up and fights back EFFECTIVELY, administrators don't like that one bit, it comes across to them as unnatural, an anomoly, an aberration, and thus, nothing but trouble, which is why they respond like this.

Oh I understand them, you better believe I do - and that's WHY I hate them so.

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

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Friday, August 19, 2011 6:49 AM

FREMDFIRMA

Oh yeah, and this...
http://www.annarbor.com/news/u-m-housing-businesses-prepare-to-protect
-students-in-light-of-recent-attacks/

"Education" ? REALLY ?
I mean I could understand if that "education" involved self-defense, instead of "self-defense is so eeevil...", fuckin hell, they still haven't come all THAT far from lay-back-and-enjoy it, which you might recall was indeed the advice given for a long damn time...

What they gonna do, bore the bastard to death with a lecture ?

Situational awareness, basic precautions, maybe a quick once over on the basics of temporarily disabling a larger opponent so you can flee, sure...
But no, instead they go with the do-not-resist mantra, which is what enables these motherfuckers in the first place.
Not to mention that campus security was in fact the source of one of those aggressors none too long ago, and I suspect that one of his accomplices or co-conspirators remains since it's been all too convenient for this creep - either he knows their easily-predictable measures cold, or someone has been aiding and abetting here.

On top of that their security staff is utterly, wholly incompetent, one of the guards from the service in question got her ass handed to her while servicing Maplewood Apts due to a lack of training, improper situational awareness and downright stupidity - she turned her back on a small crowd of aggressive individuals after confronting them and demanding they leave the property, to which they responded by garrotting her (incompetently, thankfully, our local crooks and many other security firms have this parity of incompetence thing going on) and trying to sexually assault her, which failed when she managed to fire pepper spray at herself and them, which wouldn't have deterred them for long (given the weaksauce garbage that passes for it these days) had she not managed to also dial 911 on her cellphone in the moment it bought her.

The company fired her and changed ownership/company name in order to dodge the resultant lawsuit, but they're the ones servicing UofM and they're NOT up to the job, don't vet their personnel properly (the aforementioned creeper caught in the act was a former sex offender who would NOT have slipped through the mandatory background check, if they'd actually done one as required by law) and their training is piss-poor, consisting of the usual twenty minute orientation video (which I can point out at least half a dozen bad mistakes in!) and nothing else.

And these girls are supposed to defer their own personal security to THESE twits ?

Which reminds me, snap-batons are on sale this week if you buy em in bulk, so might as well have some extra... in case anyone should need one...

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

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Friday, August 19, 2011 8:38 AM

DREAMTROVE

I knew I could count on you to flip out. I can see you as Ender.

You forget though, I didn't go to school, so no, the situation is not familiar to me. I figured something was wrong years ago when I saw the product that it produced.

I looked over the sudbury stuff, looks like a good start, and I think you have a decent point that not everyone has a functional home environment.

My planned day at the beach is being interrupted by rain.

That's what a ship is, you know - it's not just a keel and a hull and a deck and sails, that's what a ship needs.

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Friday, August 19, 2011 8:55 AM

FREMDFIRMA

Quote:
Originally posted by dreamtrove:
My planned day at the beach is being interrupted by rain.

Whiner.
What's wrong with getting a little wet anyways, you should celebrate, hell collect some and ship it to Mikey, heh...

Unless it's yanno, acid-rain or something, but you could exploit that too yanno.

-F

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Friday, August 19, 2011 8:57 AM

STORYMARK

Quote:
Originally posted by dreamtrove:

The other thing that struck me is that something else is going on here: schools are deliberately trying to create an environment of hell to reinforce their power structure.

This story, and the whole situation is sick.

But as a teacher, I'd like to take this moment to laugh at your crazy-assed generalization.

Goram it kid, let's frak this thing and go home! Engage!

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Friday, August 19, 2011 9:37 AM

DREAMTROVE

Lol.

Rain is good, but day at beach is now soggy, good for sand castles.

Mikey needs to take action. There's an asshole in texas who has drained the watertable by 10%

Story,

I'm gonna have to go with Frem on this one. I taught in the public school system, but not in the prison section, I taught in the vocational schools, which were really a world apart.

That's what a ship is, you know - it's not just a keel and a hull and a deck and sails, that's what a ship needs.

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