REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Bush = Dumb Ass

POSTED BY: SUCCATASH
UPDATED: Thursday, August 19, 2004 18:20
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Friday, August 13, 2004 9:29 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Rue, once again you pointed something out that keeps slipping past me. People ARE being held to different standards. People who say that Bush lied are somehow supposed to prove it with mathematical rigor. People who claim that Bush has our best interests at heart prove it by saying "Bush said so". Next time I get into one of these discusisons, if I remember (I hope I do!) I'll keep that in mind!




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Friday, August 13, 2004 9:38 AM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


ConnorFlynn

Quote:

Key Excerpts from David Kay's Testimony to the Senate Armed Services Committee
Acting in Iraq was justified to protect the United States and the world
Senator McCain: "You agree with the fundamental principle here that what we did was justified and enhance the security of the United States and the world by removing Saddam Hussein from power?"

etc ...

Do you mistakenly think I can't read or won't read? Don't try to quote the bible to me, because I'll quote you back the other parts you leave out:
Quote:

SEN. CARL LEVIN (D-MI):
Dr. Kay's recent reported statements, for example, that the intelligence community was wrong about there being stockpiles of weapons of mass destruction in Iraq before the war; that it is the intelligence community's consensus, he recently said, that the two alleged biological trailers were for hydrogen production, not for producing biological warfare agents; and that Iraq had not reconstituted its nuclear weapons program -- stand in sharp contrast to the statements made by the administration before going to war in Iraq. Dr. Kay's recent statements raise serious questions about the accuracy and objectivity of our intelligence, and about the administration's public statements before the war that were supposedly based on that intelligence.
Before the war, the administration, in order to support its decision to go to war, made numerous vivid, unqualified statements about Iraq having in its possession weapons of mass destruction -- not programs, not program-related activities, not intentions, actual weapons is what the administration's statements focused on.


There are many more such statements, in the interests of brevity I've only included a portion of the first.
If you want to debate the findings, let's put them in context of the Administration's preexisting claims.




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Friday, August 13, 2004 11:18 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Originally posted by rue:
Oh Geezer, now really. Did you think that that one statement was all I was going to point out? I have barely begun.

What I will post (when I have more time than recently) is a long, long series of information and extended quotes, in context, not just about the yellowcake claims, and not just by Bush. It will outline the entire administration engaged in a 'pattern of deception'.

I see you understand the difficulty of 'proving a negative'. But out of curiosity, is it frustrating to be held to an impossible standard? Do you see the irony of your complaint, given Bush based his decision to go to war on Hussein being able to 'prove' there were no WMD?



Actually, If I look at it in the same way I would a criminal trial, under the American system of justice, the Bushies don't have to prove a thing. The president is innocent until proven guilty by preponderance of evidence. Unfortunately for you, by this standard you must present facts that cannot be refuted by alternate explanations. The other side just has to throw doubt into the mix to win.

Please don't go to any trouble on my account, unless you have something brand new to disclose. I've been following this argument on other sites since early 2003 and have seen plenty of what both sides have to offer. In my opinion, none of it is substantial, unbiased, and unrefuted enough to prove beyond reasonable doubt either way.

I gave SIGNYM my criteria for proof in a post above, and that's pretty much what I want to see. Understand that I don't think you're wrong, I'm just not certain that you're right. A fine distinction, to be sure, but at least it means I'm still willing to change my mind.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Friday, August 13, 2004 4:57 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


Quote:

cannot be refuted by alternate explanations
and
Quote:

preponderance of evidence

are two entirely different standards. The first doesn't exist in US law.
In the US there are (generally speaking) two standards:
1) preponderance of evidence (more likely than not) for civil litigation
2) reasonable doubt (a standard that was abused in the OJ trial to be interpreted as 'shadow of a doubt') 'Reasonable doubt' uses the 'reasonable man' standard.
(3) There is also a third level of evidence for certain environmental crimes, which involves 'any credible data', but that's not important here.)

Now since you have no clear preference, in the future I'll use the preponderance standard.

You may wonder why I care. The entire country was brought to war through lies and propaganda. This in itself is a serious issue that needs redress.

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Friday, August 13, 2004 6:27 PM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Originally posted by rue:
You may wonder why I care. The entire country was brought to war through lies and propaganda. This in itself is a serious issue that needs redress.



I'm touched that you seem to believe that this would be the first time. Maybe I'm just too old and cynical, having seen it all before. I'm glad that you are fighting for what you believe, and despite what some may say, that you live in a country where you can. Don't ever give up.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Saturday, August 14, 2004 2:30 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Not the first time, and not likely to be the last. Unfortunately, it seems as if each generation needs to learn the same lesson on its own.

I suspect Rue is not young and I know I sure am not! But I don't think you need to be young to have passion. If anything, the older and the more cynical I get about power, the more I realize that the only defense that average folk have is knowing the truth, despite the fact that those in power have an essential interest in obscuring it. And the funny thing is... pursuing truth is the one thing you can do cost-free.

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Monday, August 16, 2004 5:11 AM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


Geezer, I only have time for a quick question before the upcoming week consumes my time - did you favor Clinton's impeachment?

Be honest, now.

PS I'm probably older than you.

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Tuesday, August 17, 2004 1:37 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Originally posted by rue:
Geezer, I only have time for a quick question before the upcoming week consumes my time - did you favor Clinton's impeachment?

Be honest, now.

PS I'm probably older than you.



Not really. I considered the whole thing an overblown media circus, and didn't think it had much to do with anything but partisan politics. I did question his choice of adulteress. You'd think the President of the United States could do better. JFK surely did.

I'd never ask a lady's age, but unless you were born a year prior to the Korean War I got you on seniority.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Wednesday, August 18, 2004 5:36 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


OK.

Work is truly consuming my time for the moment, so I'll just post some related questions. If I could show that Bush lied about WMD solely to invade Iraq, would you consider that an impeachable offense? If I could show that Bush's entire administration lied about WMD to invade Iraq, would you consider that sufficient cause to keep them out of a second term? If by some remote chance that WASN'T enough for you, what would it take?


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Thursday, August 19, 2004 2:17 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Originally posted by rue:
OK.

Work is truly consuming my time for the moment, so I'll just post some related questions. If I could show that Bush lied about WMD solely to invade Iraq, would you consider that an impeachable offense? If I could show that Bush's entire administration lied about WMD to invade Iraq, would you consider that sufficient cause to keep them out of a second term? If by some remote chance that WASN'T enough for you, what would it take?




OK. Here's the thing. You can't show me that Bush or his administration lied about WMD... Now don't go off on me before I explain this statement.

You can provide me with evidence that Bush & Co. lied about WMD. If I am going to make up my mind in an objective manner, I'd then have to either examine the evidence you provided for alternate conclusions, or find a "Bush didn't lie" proponent and ask them for counter-arguments. This could go around several times.

Yesterday the UPS guy dropped a boatload of parts for my racecar on the doorstep, and all those parts have to magically transfer from their boxes to the appropriate places on the car before my next race. I also have a job that consumes more of my time than I'd like, and a nephew who's wedding is coming up a couple thousand miles away. Not as earthshaking a set of tasks as determining possible presidential malfeasance, for sure, but important to me.

So what I'm doing is delegating the job of deciding if Bush lied to the Congress. I figure that there are plenty of folks there who'd like him out of office, and plenty to disagree with them. I also figure that they have much better access to information and resources than I do. If they ever file articles of impeachment, I'm sure that there will be "Executive Summaries" of both sides for me to review. If they don't, it's either because Bush lost the election and the point is moot, or that sufficient evidence to bring charges was not found.

This is probably not the answer you were looking for, and you may consider it a cop-out. I consider it appropriate use of my resources. If I don't believe Bush lied about WMD, I do have problems with him on domestic issues such as reproductive rights, same-sex marriage, education, healthcare, etc., so he's not high on my list. In fact, I'm finding it difficult to rationalize voting for any of these bozos.


"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Thursday, August 19, 2004 6:20 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


Being too busy .... yes, there does seem to be a lot of that going around ...

So, for the sake of completeness, here's a brief summary of where I was going to go:
1) show the entire admin had access (even more than Bush) to the yellowcake info, show that National Security Advisor (Rice) wrote several 'yellowcake' speeches for Bush and Powell; in one case (Powell) submitted them for (CIA) intelligence review with a one hour deadline and no note of urgency; in another (Bush - State of the Union address) didn't submit it for CIA review at all. (It was the CIA who had pulled the yellowcake references from earlier speeches.)
2) show, referencing over a dozen speeches, that less than a year before invading Iraq, Bush, Powell, Cheney, Rice et al considered Hussein and WMD to be well-contained and not a threat; and that there was no additional intelligence information (Senate Report) to change the assessment
3) show the admin did not treat its own claims as credible: by putting troops on the ground without adequate precautions, by failure to secure alleged WMD sites, by failure to search for WMD, and by insistance that the UN NOT search.

I would have referenced it all with extended contextual quotes and/or urls. And I would have tied it together, along with my first posting, to show that WMDs were clearly a fabrication that even the administration didn't take seriously. And that many speeches showed a deliberate 'pattern of deception' by using carefully chosen words, phrases and examples to skirt provable lies, while still misleading the American public.

I do understand the need to triage one's time, so unless someone posts an interest in the research, I'll rest the topic here.

I hope you have a good time at the wedding.

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