Windmill Boat? by AnthonyT

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Hello,

Found a picture of one.

--Anthony

_______________________________________________

“If you are not free to choose wrongly and irresponsibly, you are not free at all”

Jacob Hornberger

“Freedom is not worth having if it does not connote freedom to err. It passes my comprehension how human beings, be they ever so experienced and able, can delight in depriving other human beings of that precious right.”

Mahatma Gandhi

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Friday, August 26, 2011 7:33 AM

ETA: The last video here is a must see. It's only a 30 seconds.

Not to put too fine a point on it:

The point of the design was that you could sail into the wind. A schooner is really designed to sail perpendicular to the wind, but some can be as close as 5 degrees off of dead into the wind.

I suppose you can turn the windmill into the wind, it's an interesting idea. I had this though before, but I'm not sure how it would work on air resistance vs. water resistance.

Windmill boat

I assume they'll get faster.

What else can sail directly into the wind is a scow. Here's a moth:

The issue is one of physics, and in sailing, the physics gets really complex. Ultimately it doesn't matter all that much which direction the wind is going or whether there is wind at all. If there is current, the boat will move into stationary air, which creates a headwind, which you can actually sail off of, even if that seems like a paradoxical absurdity.

Larger vessels carrying heavy cargo are going to tend to be more tied to the wind, but the wind currents of the world really follow all of the major trade routes. The move away from sailing never made any more sense to me that the move away from rail travel. It seems that the inefficiency of a diesel vessel, which is pretty extreme, is almost built to consume maximum fuel while traveling at an unimpressive speed. It's similar to the concept of a vertical launch space shuttle as opposed to the X-15, X-30 or Spaceship One.

When you look at a long like of SUVs or tractor trailors headed along a predetermined course along an interstate with only options to get off every 35 miles or so, it does make you wonder what the point of replacing a rail system with this was at all. I mean, a rail car is ten feet max width, about the same as a traffic lane, but there's no reason the interstate system isn't itself a rail system, even cars and trucks could get onto and off of the train, and then if you recall Heinlein's "The Roads Must Roll" which you almost certainly do, you can picture sidings with little tugboat trains taking vehicles to and from the station by matching the speed of the faster through express.

Alternately, and much more simply, vehicles could be available at stations for use by passengers as is commonly done with freight boxes.

One more place where the profit and business model flow is at odds with efficiency.

My guess is that the physics of windmill boat don't add up. When I tried it on paper I couldn't get the thing to work because of the difference between air resistance and water resistance. I suspect there is a place for the invention, but it will be auxiliary, for situations when the boat won't move, or to generate electricity for use on the boat.

Hydroptere holds the short term speed record, and has passed this one, creating a hurricane force headwind.

For serious transportation, the fastest vessel in the world is the two masted schooner Mari-Cha IV. It can be seen here sailing past a day sailer as if it were standing still.

Here's the 30 second video:

For a single hull standard ocean going vessel, it can cross the ocean in a week, top speed is just over 40 knots, three times faster than its diesel competitor.

The will of the wind to travel is virtually infinite, a fact which can be exploited to go much faster than the wind.

When you're sailing into a hurricane force headwind, you could generate a fair amount of power I suppose from a windmill, which presents one of many questions: to what degree would the windmill itself create air resistance slowing you down. The goal of any modern rig is to be completely invisible to the headwind, and to the water.

That's what a ship is, you know - it's not just a keel and a hull and a deck and sails, that's what a ship needs.

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Friday, August 26, 2011 8:17 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Wow. That video is impressive! All I know is, looking at a ship with a windmill on top, my first two thoughts were "what about water resistance with all that stuff on top?" and "Jezus, I wouldn't want to be on THAT when a big storm hit!" Obviously I know nothing about this sort of thing, but it seems to me it's just begging to be busted or overturned.

Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off

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Friday, August 26, 2011 8:26 AM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Hello,

I won't comment on the feasibility of an all-rail highway system in the U.S.

However, the main interest I have in the windmill boat is that it seems to be idiot proof.

The wind turbines are self-orienting. They can generate all the power needs of the ship, and they can provide propulsion. All the operator needs to do is steer. The ship would have nearly infinite endurance and range (barring mechanical breakdown) while requiring virtually no knowledge of the physics of sailing.

That is a very attractive concept to a person like myself who can't even be bothered to learn stick.

--Anthony

_______________________________________________

“If you are not free to choose wrongly and irresponsibly, you are not free at all”

Jacob Hornberger

“Freedom is not worth having if it does not connote freedom to err. It passes my comprehension how human beings, be they ever so experienced and able, can delight in depriving other human beings of that precious right.”

Mahatma Gandhi

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Friday, August 26, 2011 10:29 AM

A wise man once said "idiots should not go to sea."

Or he probably did. It's the sort of thing that might occur.

You should learn to drive a stick shift. It's easier than an automatic, and more natural. But you shouldn't do it on your friend's clutch.

That's what a ship is, you know - it's not just a keel and a hull and a deck and sails, that's what a ship needs.

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Friday, August 26, 2011 10:37 AM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Hello,

Ease of use and natural feeling must be sensations we disagree on.

Press gas mean go.

Press break mean stop.

Select Drive mean can go forward.

Select Park mean no can go.

Select Reverse mean can go back.

Idiots probably shouldn't drive, either, but there I am on the road each day. If I am ever fortunate enough to come into money, I think I'd like to have a boat. Then the idiot will be at sea, so that boat will need to be as idiot proof as it can be.

--Anthony

_______________________________________________

“If you are not free to choose wrongly and irresponsibly, you are not free at all”

Jacob Hornberger

“Freedom is not worth having if it does not connote freedom to err. It passes my comprehension how human beings, be they ever so experienced and able, can delight in depriving other human beings of that precious right.”

Mahatma Gandhi

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Friday, August 26, 2011 11:38 AM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Hello Dream,

Came home for lunch so I could watch that video.

Impressive!

If I knew how to sail, and I was filthy rich, I'd build a Sea Witch.

But I'm me and so turbines seem the best bet so far, even if they'd make me slow as a barge.

--Anthony

_______________________________________________

“If you are not free to choose wrongly and irresponsibly, you are not free at all”

Jacob Hornberger

“Freedom is not worth having if it does not connote freedom to err. It passes my comprehension how human beings, be they ever so experienced and able, can delight in depriving other human beings of that precious right.”

Mahatma Gandhi

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Friday, August 26, 2011 12:34 PM

Whenever technology gets smart, it takes over what I should be doing, and I lose control. This makes things difficult for me, because when I'm in control I know that when I select what I want to do, that's what we'll do, and not have a smart machine think better of it.

I learned to drive stick on cars that held the road, in a land before shocks and power steering. When I pull the wheel, I want to feel a ton of steel pulling against me; when I accelerate, I want the car to accelerate at a constant rate, and the revs to go up, until I shift, and intentionally change the rate of acceleration. I don't want it to lurch forward, or jump back and forth, or decide that in spite of the reality that we are climbing a 30 degree gradient it refuses to shift down to second because that would put it at 4,000 rpms so there we are going nowhere together, me, and my smart ton of steel.

I like sailing in part because I like to hold the wind and direct it. I know it's a fight I can lose because the wind is so very much stronger than I am.

I will say that sailing is not as easy as driving stick, it is in fact quite difficult. Windmill boat is preferable to motorboat, and overall, like peddleboat, it seems quite harmless.

I've never sailed on a square rigger. My sister has. I'll grant they are visually impressive. As a means of getting from point A to point B, they are designed to be carried leeward with the wind. There is some ability to steer of of that by changing the angle of the sails, but it's a less sophisticated means of travel. Ancient Phoenecians figured this out, and later Greeks, and then Vikings, and more recently the Dutch and Americans. It seems that the knowledge gets forgotten pretty readily. I guess it's less intuitive.

It's a sobering thought that if Columbus had taken his ships at full speed in a straight line for America, and had been accompanied by a modern schooner, sailing in circles around them, that the schooner would have to take down half of its sails to slow down enough to do it.

That's what a ship is, you know - it's not just a keel and a hull and a deck and sails, that's what a ship needs.

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Friday, August 26, 2011 12:56 PM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Hello,

To this day, the Sea Witch holds the record speed between Hong Kong and New York for a mono-hulled sailing vessel. So far it has held that record for some 162 years. The only sailing vessel of *any* type to beat it was a trimaran in 2003. I don't know how many tons of cargo the trimaran was carrying.

I'm not sure that the designers of the Witch and its fellow clippers were quite off their rockers.

--Anthony

_______________________________________________

“If you are not free to choose wrongly and irresponsibly, you are not free at all”

Jacob Hornberger

“Freedom is not worth having if it does not connote freedom to err. It passes my comprehension how human beings, be they ever so experienced and able, can delight in depriving other human beings of that precious right.”

Mahatma Gandhi

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Friday, August 26, 2011 1:18 PM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Hello,

This is the 'Great American II,' the trimaran that defeated the long-standing records of many clipper ships:

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Friday, August 26, 2011 2:21 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by dreamtrove:
Whenever technology gets smart, it takes over what I should be doing, and I lose control.

That can happen quite literally - I always thought it was an idiotic idea to have traction control on the front wheels of a two wheel drive vehicle, it damn well ENSURES you get stuck if you leave it on by dumping so much power to the other wheel you lose grip - stupid, stupid, stupid!

But no, worse, I was travelling I-94 and passing on the inside lane next to the jersey wall, and this big chunk of snow falls off the truck in front of me and goes right under the left front wheel, causing the TRAC system to engage, thus pointing my car NOSE FIRST AT THE GODDAMN WALL, for something that could be safely ignored as a momentary skip - fast reflexes saved me from a wreck by a hair less than a coat of paint cause the bumper just barely did brush the wall as I pulled out, in a burst of smoking tires and paint blistering profanity, and the necessary brutal overcorrection and recovery made me damn thankful my signature driving trick is the opposite lock.

I hate them goddamn gewjaws, often as not they're less than helpful - I almost threw my ex's TomTom out the window after it kept sending us in the wrong direction by saying TURN RIGHT ON (exit now), instead of BEAR RIGHT TOWARDS (change lanes), and making us go in freakin circles till I made the ex's new husband turn it off and put it away.

I can't drive stick neither through, prosthetic leg with no real ankle flexibility and nerve damage in both legs, yanno.

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

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Friday, August 26, 2011 3:56 PM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

"I can't drive stick neither through, prosthetic leg with no real ankle flexibility and nerve damage in both legs, yanno."

Hello,

I have no excuse. I'm just inept.

Give me automatic transmission and fly-by-wire.

--Anthony

_______________________________________________

“If you are not free to choose wrongly and irresponsibly, you are not free at all”

Jacob Hornberger

“Freedom is not worth having if it does not connote freedom to err. It passes my comprehension how human beings, be they ever so experienced and able, can delight in depriving other human beings of that precious right.”

Mahatma Gandhi

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Friday, August 26, 2011 5:20 PM

It's not a trip taken often.

This is precisely the sort of travel that a clipper ship or any square rigger is made for: You have the wind going in a consistent direction. It's a worst case really for the trimaran, which is rigged to run perpendicular to the wind.

Trade winds considered... which way are we talking here? By way of India?

A clipper is a fast ship, it could sail circles around the Niña, Pinta and Santa Maria while traveling with them as well, though not as easily, it would need to be at maximum speed, and would have trouble if the wind wasn't at least in its general direction.

These newer ships actually suffer from having the wind on their side (newer as in post-1850) The Mari-Cha IV holds the trans-atlantic record at just over a week, but the crossing was made at half speed, cut down by favorable wind conditions. Perpendicular would be its best situation, so I picture the Portugal to UK route might go well, outside of the issue that the Biscay is in the way.

The issue of speed does get snarked in PotC, when Elizabeth is on the Interceptor, and I think it's Gibbs makes some comment about they're gaining on us, and she says something like "No ship can match the Interceptor for speed" and he says something to the effect of "it must be magic." The Interceptor, played by the Lady Washington is pulling around 12 knots and the Pearl is pulling around 3.

Frem, A perfect story of smart technology there. As for stick, I used to have a car with a hand clutch.

That's what a ship is, you know - it's not just a keel and a hull and a deck and sails, that's what a ship needs.

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Friday, August 26, 2011 5:41 PM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

http://www.rfrajola.com/overland%20routes/OM7.pdf

Hello,

This site purports to outline some of the routes taken by clipper ships like the Sea Witch.

--Anthony

_______________________________________________

“If you are not free to choose wrongly and irresponsibly, you are not free at all”

Jacob Hornberger

“Freedom is not worth having if it does not connote freedom to err. It passes my comprehension how human beings, be they ever so experienced and able, can delight in depriving other human beings of that precious right.”

Mahatma Gandhi

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Friday, August 26, 2011 6:07 PM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

http://www.tuvie.com/ankida-yacht-by-lila-lou/

Hello,

Here is an interesting design, though I have a strong sense I could flub it up somehow despite its supposed automation.

--Anthony

_______________________________________________

“If you are not free to choose wrongly and irresponsibly, you are not free at all”

Jacob Hornberger

“Freedom is not worth having if it does not connote freedom to err. It passes my comprehension how human beings, be they ever so experienced and able, can delight in depriving other human beings of that precious right.”

Mahatma Gandhi

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Friday, August 26, 2011 6:11 PM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

http://www.solarsailor.com/media_110317_hkjc.htm

Hello,

This looks more manageable.

--Anthony

_______________________________________________

“If you are not free to choose wrongly and irresponsibly, you are not free at all”

Jacob Hornberger

“Freedom is not worth having if it does not connote freedom to err. It passes my comprehension how human beings, be they ever so experienced and able, can delight in depriving other human beings of that precious right.”

Mahatma Gandhi

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Saturday, August 27, 2011 2:12 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:
http://www.rfrajola.com/overland%20routes/OM7.pdf

Hello,

This site purports to outline some of the routes taken by clipper ships like the Sea Witch.

That being why I was asking. I know that clipper ships were used to go around the horn, which is a treacherous sail, and not a short distance.

Was the more common was to get to China. I can see going either way. Now of course there are canals, which cut thousands of miles off your route, unless you have business in Chile or South Africa.

Generally I suspect when someone attempts a route like that, they're intentionally trying to break a record.

The Clipper ships are very beautiful and fast. They dominated the sea for the year of 1850, until 1851, when they were eclipsed by the modern american schooner. This was part of a trend towards smaller vessels in general, though there were certainly attempts made to make truly massive schooners, social factors were at work as well.

Sea Witch
Class and type: Extreme clipper
Tons burthen: 908 tons
Length: 170 ft. 3 in.
Beam: 33 ft. 11 in.
Draft: 19 ft.[1] [2]

is signigicantly smaller than the Cutty Sark, and yes, there were monster schooner efforts like Thomas W. Lawson, the real trend here was the America.

The Larson

This probably has more to do with changes in global trade, which had been on the decline for a long time. People tend to forget that we've been through this giant ship thing before. In the early days of massive transatlantic trade with europe, the 17th and 18th c. vessels were insane. Some had ten stories of wooden decks rising above the sea.

17th c. Soleil Royal

18th c. HMS Victory

Though admittedly we've taken it to extremes

Great Pheasant has a max speed of around 9 knots and hauls 170,000 tons. It would take 40 transatlantic sailing ships to equal it, but they would consume radically less fuel, and get there around the same time.

Cutty Sark weighs in about 1/2 as much as the Victory, and Sea Witch about 1/2 again. carrying freight in a sailing ship makes sense, on a standard monohull ship design you would have to ballast otherwise.

There still is some freight done by clipper in east asia, though often now they follow a more of a schooner sail plan, not always.

That's what a ship is, you know - it's not just a keel and a hull and a deck and sails, that's what a ship needs.

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Saturday, August 27, 2011 2:31 AM

Re: motorized and solar sail boats. Both of these had occurred to me as ideas. I can see a snag right off with the motorized sail, it goes like this:

When I was looking at houses in NY, I was instructed at one point to turn left on Northville. The Northville line is not a road, it's a railroad. This was quite perplexing as I sat there in my car at the edge of it with my GPS map on my ipad. I was supposed to take the thing for a mile and a half. I had to apply some simple human brain to find an alternate route.

This comes back to me whenever I hear talk of predator drones or smartdriving cars. Machines possess the ability to err with passion.

Additionally, there's the snag of what happens when the system breaks down which we all know it will. If I'm driving a car, and it throws a rod, I think "Hey, I have a non-functional vehicle traveling 60 mph, but it has a steering wheel and breaks."

This one bugs me about Helicopters: "Hey, jack, the shaft the propeller is attached to just sheered from metal fatigue. What do you want to do?" Oh, I don't know, let's fall to the Earth at 32 feet per second squared. I suspect that little stabilizer in the back to be more of a risk, but still, any good plan has to have a "what if it goes wrong" contingency plan.

So, motorized sail is fine up to a point, size-wise, and that point is the point where you can still take over for it when it fails. Our society is perfectly capable of making something with a 400 foot mast, which would be hopeless, but for a personal sailboat, it could work.

Solar sail is less problematic, the only snag being "good to 44 mph winds." What happens after that? Tomorrow, the wind is going to be a lot higher than that. One nice thing about sails is that they're inexpensive easily replaceable material.

Windmill boat has a certain simplicity to it, even if it dodges some fundamental physics problems (my knowledge of physics is not that great, since I predicted it wouldn't work at all, and clearly it does.) It seems to me more akin to pedalboat than anything else, and is probably find for just what the guy is doing with it, which is to cruise around like a golf cart.

Two more things to consider:

The expense of creating the craft, from both a person and energy expenditure point of view. If that energy exceed fuel consumption (unlikely, but possible) then there's an issue, and it makes sense to build something out of fairly cheap materials. Essentially, you're stepping up from a rowboat, or more likely a canoe or kayak. You don't need to invent a starship in order to do that. Little windmill boat has that small step look.

The second is that there is one snag with conventional sail, which will also plague windmill boat, which is what if there's no wind? This is more of a problem as the boat gets larger, as small boats can be manipulated to create wind out of current.

Here is where I like solar boat. An auxiliary propulsion system that it driven by solar power with probably some sort of battery system makes sense as a backup. Most modern sailboats have a diesel backup, which bugs me just a little bit on principle, because the concept is no-fuel consumption travel.

That's what a ship is, you know - it's not just a keel and a hull and a deck and sails, that's what a ship needs.

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Sunday, August 28, 2011 8:14 PM

Beir bua agus beannacht

I just love sailboats period, especially those lovely old ones. We had a sailboat briefly for about a year while I was in college and we had it moored at the river. My little brother and I loved that boat, he called it Slicer. Then my mother and her husband sold it, they are phasegoers, they go through phases, I guess they got over their sailing phase, much to my dismay. :( R and I are still annoyed about that.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

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Monday, August 29, 2011 4:28 AM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Quote:
Originally posted by RionaEire:
I just love sailboats period, especially those lovely old ones. We had a sailboat briefly for about a year while I was in college and we had it moored at the river. My little brother and I loved that boat, he called it Slicer. Then my mother and her husband sold it, they are phasegoers, they go through phases, I guess they got over their sailing phase, much to my dismay. :( R and I are still annoyed about that.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

Hello,

Perhaps someday you'll have a boat of your own.

--Anthony

_______________________________________________

“If you are not free to choose wrongly and irresponsibly, you are not free at all”

Jacob Hornberger

“Freedom is not worth having if it does not connote freedom to err. It passes my comprehension how human beings, be they ever so experienced and able, can delight in depriving other human beings of that precious right.”

Mahatma Gandhi

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Tuesday, August 30, 2011 5:35 AM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

http://www.cnn.com/2011/TRAVEL/08/30/sailing.around.world.blind/index.
html?hpt=hp_bn12

Hello,

Speaking of which...

--Anthony

_______________________________________________

“If you are not free to choose wrongly and irresponsibly, you are not free at all”

Jacob Hornberger

“Freedom is not worth having if it does not connote freedom to err. It passes my comprehension how human beings, be they ever so experienced and able, can delight in depriving other human beings of that precious right.”

Mahatma Gandhi

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Tuesday, August 30, 2011 6:13 AM

PIZMOBEACH

... fully loaded, safety off...

Fancy a Flettner?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rotor_ship

I saw one of these boats on the cover of Popular Science about 20 years ago - haven't seen or heard much about them since then... fascinating - they look so improbable, which is what's so cool about them.

Scifi movie music + Firefly dialogue clips, 24 hours a day - http://www.scifiradio.com

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Tuesday, August 30, 2011 6:28 AM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Hello,

I don't think I'm smart enough to understand the mechanism of action for this propulsion system.

--Anthony

_______________________________________________

“If you are not free to choose wrongly and irresponsibly, you are not free at all”

Jacob Hornberger

“Freedom is not worth having if it does not connote freedom to err. It passes my comprehension how human beings, be they ever so experienced and able, can delight in depriving other human beings of that precious right.”

Mahatma Gandhi

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Tuesday, August 30, 2011 7:59 AM

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)

Quote:
Originally posted by pizmobeach:
Fancy a Flettner?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rotor_ship

I saw one of these boats on the cover of Popular Science about 20 years ago - haven't seen or heard much about them since then... fascinating - they look so improbable, which is what's so cool about them.

Scifi movie music + Firefly dialogue clips, 24 hours a day - http://www.scifiradio.com

Hey, I remember those! I was wondering what ever became of this idea too! It never seemed to really gain any traction.

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Tuesday, August 30, 2011 12:24 PM

Small world update: I just bought a boat on ebay that used to belong to a friend of mine, as I found out after I bought it.

That's what a ship is, you know - it's not just a keel and a hull and a deck and sails, that's what a ship needs.

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Tuesday, August 30, 2011 1:59 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by dreamtrove:
Small world update: I just bought a boat on ebay that used to belong to a friend of mine, as I found out after I bought it.

That's what a ship is, you know - it's not just a keel and a hull and a deck and sails, that's what a ship needs.

Small world. Last sailboat I bought turned out to be not just like the one I used to own, but the actual one I used to own! I sold it again, but I wouldn't be surprised at all if it found its way back to me one day...

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Tuesday, August 30, 2011 2:26 PM

It was fate, you should have kept it. You sail?

That's what a ship is, you know - it's not just a keel and a hull and a deck and sails, that's what a ship needs.

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Tuesday, August 30, 2011 3:13 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by dreamtrove:
It was fate, you should have kept it. You sail?

That's what a ship is, you know - it's not just a keel and a hull and a deck and sails, that's what a ship needs.

Since I was about 12. Tiny boats. Daysailers. Love 'em - tiny, easy to rig, easy to sail, hard to screw up with, quick, maneuverable... what's not to like?

We had a couple bigger boats growing up - a couple 17-footers and a 24-footer, but my thing was always the smaller ones - twelves and fourteen-footers.

I kayak, canoe, sail - in fact, I've never been on a boat with any kind of motor in my life. Go figure, as nuts as I am about fast cars, I prefer slow boats!

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Tuesday, August 30, 2011 3:19 PM

Beir bua agus beannacht

That's a funny story Quicko.

It would be grand to own a sailing boat someday.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

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Tuesday, August 30, 2011 9:37 PM

My sister has a motor boat, but sailboats are not slower than motorboats. I mean, sure, you can overpower a skiff, as sis did, but really, I don't notice that much difference in speed. Sailing might be faster.

I had a rowboat as a kid, and then my mom sold it, I'm never sure why she does this, but she always has. After that it was canoes, but lately it's been sailboats. I think I'm developing a fondness for boats over ships. I think some day I'd like a hybrid, a lightweight sailing ship that works more like a boat.

I see the connection to cars, it goes back to the no-smart tech, the connection where the vehicle becomes an extension of your physical self, enabling you to do things you couldn't otherwise do.

I can see myself getting into flying at some point on this same teain of thought, but on a big plane I feel like cargo.

Ever done any moth sailing?

That's what a ship is, you know - it's not just a keel and a hull and a deck and sails, that's what a ship needs.

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Wednesday, August 31, 2011 4:22 AM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Hello Dream,

http://sundogpowerchutes.com/

Maybe something like this would suit you. I've seen them in action, and they look fun.

--Anthony

_______________________________________________

“If you are not free to choose wrongly and irresponsibly, you are not free at all”

Jacob Hornberger

“Freedom is not worth having if it does not connote freedom to err. It passes my comprehension how human beings, be they ever so experienced and able, can delight in depriving other human beings of that precious right.”

Mahatma Gandhi

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Wednesday, August 31, 2011 7:04 AM

Hmm, that uses wind to drive itself though, and consumes fossil fuels. Maybe if it used the wind to drive itself... Sail cars have been done a few times, and even sail trains, though not with great success. Sailcars can race at pretty high speeds. Also, ice boats.

Overall, I'm okay with cars. I think that when we kill the pipeline, we'll just make on-the spot generated gas stations with big tanks of algae, and in time that will change to actual green cars, and later photo synthetic or photovoltaic cars.

In order for any of that to happen, we need to make them ourselves, not let an industry-govt. complex do it, so we have to kill the regulation of them, because that will always be used to keep homemade vehicles and small industrial players off the market.

That's what a ship is, you know - it's not just a keel and a hull and a deck and sails, that's what a ship needs.

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Wednesday, August 31, 2011 7:14 AM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Hello,

When you mentioned wanting to fly, I did not realize you wanted an unfueled flying craft.

I guess you're stuck with some kind of glider or a very expensive solar powered airplane.

--Anthony

_______________________________________________

“If you are not free to choose wrongly and irresponsibly, you are not free at all”

Jacob Hornberger

“Freedom is not worth having if it does not connote freedom to err. It passes my comprehension how human beings, be they ever so experienced and able, can delight in depriving other human beings of that precious right.”

Mahatma Gandhi

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Wednesday, August 31, 2011 1:40 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by dreamtrove:
My sister has a motor boat, but sailboats are not slower than motorboats. I mean, sure, you can overpower a skiff, as sis did, but really, I don't notice that much difference in speed. Sailing might be faster.

I had a rowboat as a kid, and then my mom sold it, I'm never sure why she does this, but she always has. After that it was canoes, but lately it's been sailboats. I think I'm developing a fondness for boats over ships. I think some day I'd like a hybrid, a lightweight sailing ship that works more like a boat.

I see the connection to cars, it goes back to the no-smart tech, the connection where the vehicle becomes an extension of your physical self, enabling you to do things you couldn't otherwise do.

I can see myself getting into flying at some point on this same teain of thought, but on a big plane I feel like cargo.

Ever done any moth sailing?

That's what a ship is, you know - it's not just a keel and a hull and a deck and sails, that's what a ship needs.

No Moth sailing, but dinghies like the Sunfish, Sailfish, and Jetwind aren't too different - the rigging is a bit simpler, if anything. But yeah, there's nothing quite like the feeling of having the thing at full speed, heeled over in the wind, hiked well out over the water, "standing" on the outside of the boat watching the water zip by beneath you. Even when you're not going terribly fast, it FEELS fast that way!

And I never thought of it, but you're probably right - the feel of the boat, the connection to the controls, the immediacy of it - it IS quite like driving small, quick, simple cars.

I despise flying commercial. I was raised flying tiny planes. Learned to fly stick in a '49 Piper Clipper my dad had at the time. I never "officially" flew, because I didn't pay for lessons, but I was at the controls quite a few times. :) Again, it was a simple, visceral connection.

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Thursday, September 1, 2011 2:10 AM

I've never flown myself. I might try it, but first, sailing.

Anthony, was that snark really necessary? I mean, just saying, we have lots of cars that can propel themselves by consuming gasoline. I looked at the car and thought it was wind powered, but then I saw it was propeller driven.

That's what a ship is, you know - it's not just a keel and a hull and a deck and sails, that's what a ship needs.

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Thursday, September 1, 2011 4:19 AM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Quote:
Originally posted by dreamtrove:
I've never flown myself. I might try it, but first, sailing.

Anthony, was that snark really necessary? I mean, just saying, we have lots of cars that can propel themselves by consuming gasoline. I looked at the car and thought it was wind powered, but then I saw it was propeller driven.

That's what a ship is, you know - it's not just a keel and a hull and a deck and sails, that's what a ship needs.

Hello,

I think you mistake me.

--Anthony

_______________________________________________

“If you are not free to choose wrongly and irresponsibly, you are not free at all”

Jacob Hornberger

“Freedom is not worth having if it does not connote freedom to err. It passes my comprehension how human beings, be they ever so experienced and able, can delight in depriving other human beings of that precious right.”

Mahatma Gandhi

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Thursday, September 1, 2011 4:25 AM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Quote:
Originally posted by dreamtrove:
I've never flown myself. I might try it, but first, sailing.

Anthony, was that snark really necessary? I mean, just saying, we have lots of cars that can propel themselves by consuming gasoline. I looked at the car and thought it was wind powered, but then I saw it was propeller driven.

That's what a ship is, you know - it's not just a keel and a hull and a deck and sails, that's what a ship needs.

Hello,

It just occurred to me that you may not have realized the link I sent you was not for a 'car' but a flying device that uses a parachute as an airfoil and the propeller as a drive mechanism.

And that the whole thing can be flown from a field in a large park.

I was recommending a type of aircraft to you. One that might be within your means of both purchase and operation.

--Anthony

_______________________________________________

“If you are not free to choose wrongly and irresponsibly, you are not free at all”

Jacob Hornberger

“Freedom is not worth having if it does not connote freedom to err. It passes my comprehension how human beings, be they ever so experienced and able, can delight in depriving other human beings of that precious right.”

Mahatma Gandhi

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Thursday, September 1, 2011 5:16 AM

Oh, sorry, yes, I thought it was a car, not an airplane. That makes more sense.

Doesn't look like a plane. How does it work? I see it says "parachute" do you paraglide?

I was thinking of something like this

We say one on Keuka lake a couple weeks ago. This would interest me if I had somewhere to go that was overland. I think you'd need a couple of things, one is range, and the other is what Mike was just saying about natural extension of self. I also don't want a "one fail we all die" sort of situation. Any vehicle can be like that.
That's what a ship is, you know - it's not just a keel and a hull and a deck and sails, that's what a ship needs.

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Thursday, September 1, 2011 5:42 AM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Powered_parachute

Hello,

Here is the Wikipedia article. This vehicle is among the safest aircraft in existence, assuming you don’t fly it into a storm. ;-)

I had the good fortune to see some of these in operation at a Steam and Flywheel show in Florida. People were flying them up off of a grassy field near the show. It looked like a lot of fun.

--Anthony

_______________________________________________

“If you are not free to choose wrongly and irresponsibly, you are not free at all”

Jacob Hornberger

“Freedom is not worth having if it does not connote freedom to err. It passes my comprehension how human beings, be they ever so experienced and able, can delight in depriving other human beings of that precious right.”

Mahatma Gandhi

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Thursday, September 1, 2011 7:22 AM

Actually, most ultralites, with a skilled pilot at the controls, CAN be flown as less efficient gliders, which is mostly how I operated the Dominator, only using the engines mostly for takeoffs - but then I am/was one of the few who could do an aerial retrograde in one as well...

My flyin days are over though, flying one of them things takes too much outta me physically, except maybe the GT400, if it hadn't been retired thanks to more or less the same reasons, being too old and battered to pass even a cursory safety inspection any more.

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

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Monday, September 5, 2011 7:17 PM

Beir bua agus beannacht

Someday I want to fly in a glider, in tandom with someone who knows what they're doing of course, I just want to be there for the ride, that would be grand fun. I grew up with the film Fly Away Home, which is about people flying those little ultralights to lead a flock of geese south from Ontario to NC. My dad and I thought about trying it in Hawaii when we went in May, but it was rediculously expensive, so maybe we'll try it closer to home someday.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

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Monday, September 5, 2011 11:03 PM

Ridiculosly expensive is why I built the Dominator, which is in fact not much more than a pair of chainsaw motors, and a whole lot of tubing and fabric - it doesn't even have a conventional control set cause I didn't want to have to add a seat and pedals cause of weight issues.

Of course, if you wanna fly tandem you'd need something bigger like a GT400, but I honestly preferred the Domie cause it was as close to having wings as a human could get.

There's plenty of DIY designs available for that sort of thing, but that (and trying to fly one sans training or license) takes a batshit-insane level of courage cause the first time you do so is downright terrifying to most, although in a way also tremendously exhilirating.

Remember though, you're not a pilot till you've landed the same aircraft twice, cause anyone can "land" it ONCE, heh.

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

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Tuesday, September 6, 2011 7:59 PM

Beir bua agus beannacht

Well flying it by myself isn't an option for me so there's no point in considering it. But going with someone would be really fun. You said you don't fly yours much anymore, where do you keep it? I doubt you have room at your appt.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

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Tuesday, September 6, 2011 10:54 PM