Teachers Ordered to Work by the State by AnthonyT

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Hello,

I suppose I viewed such intervention as a barbaric century-old practice, and not something we would proudly inflict on our citizenry today. I thought we were freer now.

But then again, I return to the question of the health of society versus the liberty of the individual. Is this a case where we should feel justified in squashing individual liberty for the health of society at large?

I don't think it is. But I lack the language to frame the conviction of my gut.

--Anthony

_______________________________________________

"In every war, the state enacts a tax of freedom upon the citizenry. The unspoken promise is that the tax shall be revoked at war's end. Endless war holds no such promise. Hence, Eternal War is Eternal Slavery." --Admiral Robert J. Henner

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Thursday, September 15, 2011 11:29 AM

BYTEMITE

In the defense of my own hypocrisy, whether kids learn or not is a pretty different situation from whether someone dies.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Thursday, September 15, 2011 11:54 AM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

"In the defense of my own hypocrisy, whether kids learn or not is a pretty different situation from whether someone dies."

Hello,

I agree. But it does seem that once the power to decide such things is granted to the state, the state will make woefully poor decisions on the matter.

What about something like garbage-collectors, whose activities vividly impact the health of persons living in cities?

Or food delivery truck drivers, who can starve entire regions if they refuse to perform their job function?

Should we put the gun to their heads and force them back to their jobs? Or use military personnel to fill their positions?

If we do, doesn't that rob them of some pretty basic freedoms while destroying their ability to bargain for better conditions or pay? Isn't this the singular leverage any employee has against his boss? The ability to choose not to work?

Every violation of freedom feels like a sinister many-limbed monster, with tentacles that spread out to touch all parts of a 'free society.' I fear that the idea of forcing people to do things for the good of society is too casual a matter for many. A person should be wracked with guilt at the very prospect of such, yet I daily speak to people who dispense summary judgment on the matter as though there never was another side to consider.

I suppose I would be greatly comforted if I knew that any such decision was married to tears and regret, rather than readily accepted as the routine cost of doing business. Or worse: A penance that people deserve to pay for the sin of being capable, fortunate, or otherwise endowed- a penance laid on with the glee of someone reveling in revenge.

--Anthony

_______________________________________________

"In every war, the state enacts a tax of freedom upon the citizenry. The unspoken promise is that the tax shall be revoked at war's end. Endless war holds no such promise. Hence, Eternal War is Eternal Slavery." --Admiral Robert J. Henner

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Thursday, September 15, 2011 12:06 PM

NEWOLDBROWNCOAT

Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:

Should we put the gun to their heads and force them back to their jobs? Or use military personnel to fill their positions?

If we do, doesn't that rob them of some pretty basic freedoms while destroying their ability to bargain for better conditions or pay? Isn't this the singular leverage any employee has against his boss? The ability to choose not to work?

--Anthony

Unless your name is Ronald Reagan, and the folks who strike for those things , and exercise those individual freedoms, are air traffic controllers. Then ya just fire 'em ALL, black list 'em for all time, and hire replacements who weren't previously qualified to get the jobs the regular way.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Thursday, September 15, 2011 12:08 PM

BYTEMITE

Quote:
If we do, doesn't that rob them of some pretty basic freedoms while destroying their ability to bargain for better conditions or pay? Isn't this the singular leverage any employee has against his boss? The ability to choose not to work?

I'd say yes, but I'd also say there's a stipulation over whether or not any of those actions lead to a crime, if a crime as defined here is essentially "your right to swing your fist ends at the tip of my nose."

There is a difference between something that causes an inconvenience versus something that causes harm, injury to livelyhood, or death.

But also presumably, except for the things a person can't control, like illness or health related conditions, most people can probably take care of themselves, or know people who will look out for them, too. So even the garbage collector thing or a food strike people would presumably find some way to get around or hold out for a few weeks to a few months, but if a doctor refuses to treat you when you're dying that's probably pretty much it (unless you're Frem).

This is generally speaking of course, but some things carry a much higher risk than others. As such making the choice to not help or do the job in some situations is more unethical than in others. But it can depend on the particulars of the situation.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Thursday, September 15, 2011 2:25 PM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht

I agree with Anthony on this one, I see it differently than the dying situation, if teachers are striking then there are always scabs to come in and do it aren't there? I don't hold to scabbing most of the time, but I guess if the teachers have been on strike for a month and the kids aren't being taught anything then I'm okay with it. I do see this as different than the hospital situation though, the idea of letting someone die.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Thursday, September 15, 2011 3:36 PM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up

Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:
What constitutes a vital function to society? When do we allow the government to force people to perform such functions?

If they're Federal employees, including the military. Federal workers have no right to strike. Remember when in 1981 the air traffic controllers tried to strike and Pres. Reagan fired them. Government employees in many states, counties, cities, etc. also have no right to strike per their contracts.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Thursday, September 15, 2011 3:39 PM

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)

Last I looked, the vast majority of teachers ARE NOT federal employees.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Thursday, September 15, 2011 4:45 PM

FREMDFIRMA

I draw the line at government intervention.
Because that is effectively slavery, is what it is.

Now, yeah, I've threatened medical personnel, one in particular got held up against a wall by his collar while I described in explicit medical terms what was about to happen to him - but that was a PERSONAL transaction, between him, and me, personally - he chose not to make an issue of it later, and that was that.

As mentioned elsewhere in the thread, the Gov has a nasty habit of forcing folk to work, of removing the right to refuse - and I'll have none of that, although in specific cases like a pharmacist, who knowingly takes the job with the awareness they may be asked to prescribe something that conflicts with their morals, or a cab driver who knowingly takes the job with the awareness they may have to transport a service animal... you'd damn well best have an answer for it should those things happen, and if you use your position of temporary power over someone else to abuse them for not holding to YOUR moral standards, you damn well ought to be fired.

I mention the second cause I do know muslim cabbies who have moral issues with dogs, Mahmoud and Bob would go ahead and do it, feeling that many of the PEOPLE they transport ain't that much of an improvement... but there's a few who'd have an issue with doing so at all, and in that rare case either immediately have someone close at hand to do so instead, or in one case where they were the only cab available, was fortunate enough to know someone nearby with a hack license (myself) to drive it for them - although that was more he didn't want to hand a client off to another company, too.

But unless an outright crime (and I don't mean some mala-prohibita vague regulation, I mean actual harm) is being committed, no, the Gov should NOT be involved, they've proven wholly untrustworthy in this to the greatest possible degree.

ETA: Geezer, IMHO those contracts fail constitutional challenge, and things being illegal or unconstitutional never seems to stop the damn government from doin em...
That does NOT mean it's any kind of right to do so, however, on that point I will not move.

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Friday, September 16, 2011 2:00 AM

DALEK!

Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:ETA: Geezer, IMHO those contracts fail constitutional challenge,

How so?

...and it is far from slaverly. No one is forcing those people to continue to be teachers. They can always quit.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Friday, September 16, 2011 2:18 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
Last I looked, the vast majority of teachers ARE NOT federal employees.

Might as well be. They're mostly union employees, and what Geezer is referring to is the PATCO situation, where union workers went on strike illegally.

" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Friday, September 16, 2011 2:42 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
Last I looked, the vast majority of teachers ARE NOT federal employees.

Try reading the whole post.

"Government employees in many states, counties, cities, etc. also have no right to strike per their contracts."

"Keep the Shiny side up"

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Friday, September 16, 2011 4:25 AM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Quote:
Originally posted by m52nickerson:
Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:ETA: Geezer, IMHO those contracts fail constitutional challenge,

How so?

...and it is far from slaverly. No one is forcing those people to continue to be teachers. They can always quit.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

Hello,

That seems unlikely, since they have devoted much of their lives to learning the unique skillset of the teacher. And if they quit now, they will probably never be able to teach again.

There is more than one way to make slaves of men. It can be done incrementally, by inches.

--Anthony

_______________________________________________

"In every war, the state enacts a tax of freedom upon the citizenry. The unspoken promise is that the tax shall be revoked at war's end. Endless war holds no such promise. Hence, Eternal War is Eternal Slavery." --Admiral Robert J. Henner

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Friday, September 16, 2011 5:03 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
There is more than one way to make slaves of men. It can be done incrementally, by inches.

And curiously, it has been done best by banks, not government. It's called debt slavery.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Friday, September 16, 2011 5:05 AM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Quote:
There is more than one way to make slaves of men. It can be done incrementally, by inches.
And curiously, it has been done best by banks, not government. It's called debt slavery.

Hello,

I can't argue against the reality that many people are 'slaved' to debt. Their own, and the debt of the country they live in.

--Anthony

_______________________________________________

"In every war, the state enacts a tax of freedom upon the citizenry. The unspoken promise is that the tax shall be revoked at war's end. Endless war holds no such promise. Hence, Eternal War is Eternal Slavery." --Admiral Robert J. Henner

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Friday, September 16, 2011 8:50 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

This is, to me, an example of where we're going these days. Taking away unions and therefore people's right to negotiate for better compensation, then forcing them to work, is a prime example. The Wisconsin example speaks volumes to me as well; teachers who live there have only the choice of working for what is offered or moving elsewhere, and of course quitting, as mentioned, depletes their chances of FINDING work elsewhere as teachers. It does amount to slavery, and it's what's being imposed in one way or another all over the country right now.

The provision where someone appointed by the state can come in and take over a city, ostensibly to make it fiscally viable but with the power to do whatever they please, is another example.

This direction has frightened me for some time; the more I see it appearing around the nation, the more I am confused. What happened to "smaller government"? I know 'individual rights' mean nothing to those causing it, but the hypocrisy of saying you're for smaller government, then using government to imppose what YOU want, sickens me.

Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Friday, September 16, 2011 9:21 AM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

"What happened to "smaller government"? I know 'individual rights' mean nothing to those causing it, but the hypocrisy of saying you're for smaller government, then using government to imppose what YOU want, sickens me."

Hello,

I couldn't agree more.

--Anthony

_______________________________________________

"In every war, the state enacts a tax of freedom upon the citizenry. The unspoken promise is that the tax shall be revoked at war's end. Endless war holds no such promise. Hence, Eternal War is Eternal Slavery." --Admiral Robert J. Henner

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Friday, September 16, 2011 1:30 PM

DALEK!

Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:

Hello,

That seems unlikely, since they have devoted much of their lives to learning the unique skillset of the teacher. And if they quit now, they will probably never be able to teach again.

There is more than one way to make slaves of men. It can be done incrementally, by inches.

Regardless of how much time they have devoted, it is still their choice. If you have a choice, you can't be a slave unless you make yourself one.

The thing is if all the teachers quit, or threaten to it is as good as the strike. You can't replace a teacher with an unskilled worker. In the end the state will have to negotiate to bring them back.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Friday, September 16, 2011 2:38 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by m52nickerson:
The thing is if all the teachers quit, or threaten to it is as good as the strike. You can't replace a teacher with an unskilled worker.

Of course you can, if you don't care about the results. Or if you WANT the result to be abject failure. This seems to be the education program the right envisions for our future.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Friday, September 16, 2011 3:03 PM

DALEK!

That and those pesky state laws that require certain training and education.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Friday, September 16, 2011 3:13 PM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Quote:
Originally posted by m52nickerson:
That and those pesky state laws that require certain training and education.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

Hello,

In the absence of skilled workers willing to do the job for the pay the state is willing to make, I do indeed foresee the state changing their own state law to allow less skilled workers filling the position.

--Anthony

_______________________________________________

"In every war, the state enacts a tax of freedom upon the citizenry. The unspoken promise is that the tax shall be revoked at war's end. Endless war holds no such promise. Hence, Eternal War is Eternal Slavery." --Admiral Robert J. Henner

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Friday, September 16, 2011 3:16 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:
Quote:
Originally posted by m52nickerson:
That and those pesky state laws that require certain training and education.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

Hello,

In the absence of skilled workers willing to do the job for the pay the state is willing to make, I do indeed foresee the state changing their own state law to allow less skilled workers filling the position.

--Anthony

_______________________________________________

"In every war, the state enacts a tax of freedom upon the citizenry. The unspoken promise is that the tax shall be revoked at war's end. Endless war holds no such promise. Hence, Eternal War is Eternal Slavery." --Admiral Robert J. Henner

Very much so, Anthony. And we've seen how quickly such "pesky" state laws can be changed when it comes to teachers and what they can and can't do, haven't we?

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Saturday, September 17, 2011 1:13 AM

Also, I noticed that the thread title, "Teachers Ordered to Work by the State" could also read "Teachers Ordered to Work FOR the State."

I wonder why none of our so-called "states' rights" advocates have weighed in. You can be sure that if the FEDERAL government had ordered the teachers back to work, we'd be hearing about over-reach and tyranny.

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Saturday, September 17, 2011 6:15 AM

DALEK!

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:

Very much so, Anthony. And we've seen how quickly such "pesky" state laws can be changed when it comes to teachers and what they can and can't do, haven't we?

...and we have also seen the uproar it can cause.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Saturday, September 17, 2011 6:19 AM