Nobel Prize-Winning Physicist Resigns Over Global Warming by AURaptor

"Falseify" is a bit harsh. However, they might have an investment in an idea that maybe causes them to reject or accept data they shouldn't, or refine a calculation or model to fit with their existing expectations. If there have been mistakes, I don't think they're malicious. And the temperature data out there, like by NOAA, adjusted or not, does show a bit of a warming trend over the last fifty years, at least in the northern hemisphere. There has not been much warming in the southern hemisphere as I recall.

I think we're still trying to get the whole picture in regards to atmospheric science and climate, so I'd agree "Incontrovertible" is generally not a word you want to see in a research field.

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Thursday, September 15, 2011 4:51 AM

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

"Giaever earned his Nobel for his experimental discoveries regarding tunneling phenomena in superconductors."

And that makes him an expert in climate science .... HOW again? It's like asking your dentist to work on your car - because he's a dentist and should know!

Now that I think about it, this seems to indicate Rap's reverence for 'authorities' (as long as they agree with him) and disdain for actual facts and knowledge.

Remember when teachers, public employees, Planned Parenthood, NPR and PBS crashed the stock market, wiped out half of our 401Ks, took trillions in taxpayer funded bailouts, spilled oil in the Gulf of Mexico, gave themselves billions in bonuses, and paid no taxes?

Yeah, me neither....

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Thursday, September 15, 2011 5:15 AM

America loves a winner!

Can't dismiss the message, so you attack the messenger.
Classic Left wing tactic

" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Thursday, September 15, 2011 5:20 AM

Just being a scientist in general is all you need to be offended by an "incontrovertible" claim.

If it's incontrovertible, it's not science - science is based on study and observation, which is based on questions.

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Thursday, September 15, 2011 5:49 AM

NEWOLDBROWNCOAT

Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
Just being a scientist in general is all you need to be offended by an "incontrovertible" claim.

If it's incontrovertible, it's not science - science is based on study and observation, which is based on questions.

The article Rap quoted makes the same point. There was argument before about that very single word. Change that SINGLE WORD and the conclusion still has plenty of evidence- hot spells, melting polar ice caps, extreme hurricanes, droughts, brush fires burning down Texas-- all suggestive of the conclusion, if not proof.

And an item I caught yesterday over on CNN.com--

http://globalpublicsquare.blogs.cnn.com/2011/09/14/king-crabs-invade-a
ntarctica/?hpt=hp_bn2

The king crabs, from ALASKA, are migrating to the SOUTH POLE, which was supposed to be impossible, and eating everything in sight along the way. People in the know are saying it's because of global warming.

I think it might have been because they got scared of Sig Hansen from Deadliest Catch, and left town. Maybe next season the Deadliest Catch
crazy men oughtta move South-- way South.

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Thursday, September 15, 2011 6:13 AM

Sure. It's just one word, though it's enough to annoy anyone who actually works in the field. It's become political enough that if you measure or calculate a global temperature consistent with the scientific consensus, you must have an agenda. If you find there's been warming but not at the same rate as the scientific consensus or as hot, you're biased enough that the work has no scientific merit and you and anyone who made the mistake of associating with you are disgraced.

It's just a little extreme, and I can't help but feel like neutrality has been compromised.

As for your comment about the crabs, you didn't read the whole article - they're a related southern hemisphere species, the population in question was based off of New Zealand and migrated to Antarctica.

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Thursday, September 15, 2011 6:34 AM

TWO

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

When should we NOT trust Dr. Ivar Giaever, winner of the Nobel Prize in physics? Another respected Nobel-prizewinning physicist was also unworthy of trust, from an article that came out the day Giaever resigned:

Quote:
I am a strong believer that good reasons, arguments, and evidence are what matter, not credentials. So the short answer to “when should we trust an expert simply because they are an expert?” is “never.” We should always ask for reasons before we place trust. Hannes Alfvén was a respected Nobel-prizewinning physicist; but his ideas about cosmology were completely loopy, and there was no reason for anyone to trust them. An interested outsider might verify that essentially no working cosmologists bought into his model. - http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2011/09/13/trusting-e
xperts/

The Joss Whedon script for "Serenity," where Wash lives, is
Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/two

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Thursday, September 15, 2011 6:43 AM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

"There was argument before about that very single word. Change that SINGLE WORD"

Hello,

I think that single words can sometimes change everything. Language in scientific literature is usually chosen with great attention to meaning, and it does a great service to the community to remind them of that which James Bond has long known.

--Anthony

_______________________________________________

"In every war, the state enacts a tax of freedom upon the citizenry. The unspoken promise is that the tax shall be revoked at war's end. Endless war holds no such promise. Hence, Eternal War is Eternal Slavery." --Admiral Robert J. Henner

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Thursday, September 15, 2011 6:53 AM

NEWOLDBROWNCOAT

Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:

As for your comment about the crabs, you didn't read the whole article - they're a related southern hemisphere species, the population in question was based off of New Zealand and migrated to Antarctica.

You're right, I didn't read the whole thing. AW, DAMN, I'm disappointed-- ruined a perfectly good joke.

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Thursday, September 15, 2011 7:03 AM

It's okay. They ARE migrating. It's just that a species migrating away from rising temperatures is not going to go from temperate/sub-arctic waters to cross the equator because that would mean going through tropical waters.

My whole point is just that scientists got to be careful what they say and to try to not make this political. I think something's happening, but I think it's just as important that scientists do not exaggerate or mislead about their claims or their findings, because then they lose credibility. Same with saying that something is incontrovertible - that loses credibility.

The same of course goes for journalists. While an interesting article, I might argue that the way it was phrased and edited was intended to be misleading. Journalists will of course sensationalize, scientists should not ever sensationalize.

Crabs migrating away from Alaska to Antarctica would be an incredible and alarming story. The actual situation is extreme enough that crabs are migrating from New Zealand, but not so extreme they're migrating south from Alaska.

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Thursday, September 15, 2011 3:07 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)

Quote:
Originally posted by 1kiki:
"Giaever earned his Nobel for his experimental discoveries regarding tunneling phenomena in superconductors."

And that makes him an expert in climate science .... HOW again? It's like asking your dentist to work on your car - because he's a dentist and should know!

Now that I think about it, this seems to indicate Rap's reverence for 'authorities' (as long as they agree with him) and disdain for actual facts and knowledge.

Remember when teachers, public employees, Planned Parenthood, NPR and PBS crashed the stock market, wiped out half of our 401Ks, took trillions in taxpayer funded bailouts, spilled oil in the Gulf of Mexico, gave themselves billions in bonuses, and paid no taxes?

Yeah, me neither....

Apparently Rap didn't like your message (that this guy isn't a climate scientist in any sense of the word), so he needed to attack you for pointing it out.

Odd that he considers himself a lefty now, though. ;)

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Thursday, September 15, 2011 4:28 PM

America loves a winner!

Doesn't matter that he's not a climate scientist in the least. His argument was on the shoddy science which is being promoted as 'incontrovertible'. It's poor science, and he's absolutely right.

And I 'attacked' no one.

" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Thursday, September 15, 2011 4:32 PM

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
Just being a scientist in general is all you need to be offended by an "incontrovertible" claim.

If it's incontrovertible, it's not science - science is based on study and observation, which is based on questions.

AHEM!

If you read the article you will find that he's ok with it being a FACT that global warming is false. He himself has a website claiming it's a FACT that it's false. He's NOT taking a 'wait and see, the data will bear it out' approach.

It seems the only 'facts' he objects to are the ones he has already decided against. ie - he is operating on beliefs, not scientific skepticism.

Remember when teachers, public employees, Planned Parenthood, NPR and PBS crashed the stock market, wiped out half of our 401Ks, took trillions in taxpayer funded bailouts, spilled oil in the Gulf of Mexico, gave themselves billions in bonuses, and paid no taxes?

Yeah, me neither....

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Thursday, September 15, 2011 4:35 PM

In this case, I believe

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DumbassHasAPoint

Unless you disagree with the scientific method. Incontrovertible is still something you should never claim in relation to research.

Also, gesundheit.

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Thursday, September 15, 2011 4:36 PM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

King crabs.

Nonetheless, Byte, they are swarming over areas they have not lived in for millenia. Speaking of ignoring evidence in favor of mistakes.

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Thursday, September 15, 2011 4:37 PM

America loves a winner!

wow. The logistical contortions and gymnastics you AGW zealots go through to deny reality.

" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Thursday, September 15, 2011 4:38 PM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
It's poor science, and he's absolutely right.

And rappy would know this... how? Because he understands the scientific method? Because he's all about the facts? Because he has a shred of logic?

Yanno, the fact that this comes from someone who has complete disdain for evidence makes this statement nothing more than a joke.

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Thursday, September 15, 2011 4:39 PM

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

"It's poor science, and he's absolutely right."

Except he's a proponent of equally poor science in the other direction. Do you dismiss HIS poor science as well, based on it being poor science?

I thought not.

Remember when teachers, public employees, Planned Parenthood, NPR and PBS crashed the stock market, wiped out half of our 401Ks, took trillions in taxpayer funded bailouts, spilled oil in the Gulf of Mexico, gave themselves billions in bonuses, and paid no taxes?

Yeah, me neither....

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Thursday, September 15, 2011 4:40 PM

Nice catch Sig, I didn't make that point myself. At all. To NOBC, explaining how it's still significant that they are migrating from New Zealand, but that we have to be careful about sensationalism.

We were arguing against the concept of neutrality and skepticism in science, I believe? You're making a good showing for the opposition.

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Thursday, September 15, 2011 4:43 PM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Hello,

I think the fellow might be wrong about everything in the wide world, down to the color of the sky and the matter of water being wet...

and it makes his specific criticism in this instance no less valid.

There is a terrible tendency, when a mistake is pointed out, to point out all the mistakes the other guy has made.

As though some quantity of wrongness on the part of the accuser somehow rights the wrong of the accused.

He may be hypocritical, he may be a fool, he may be a bastard.

But he's not wrong about *this one thing.*

--Anthony

_______________________________________________

"In every war, the state enacts a tax of freedom upon the citizenry. The unspoken promise is that the tax shall be revoked at war's end. Endless war holds no such promise. Hence, Eternal War is Eternal Slavery." --Admiral Robert J. Henner

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Thursday, September 15, 2011 4:49 PM

Exactly, Anthony. I disagree with the man about his personal stance on climate change, and he is a hypocrite for being unscrutinizing of his own beliefs. But he's absolutely right that none of the research is incontrovertible, or that we couldn't and shouldn't continue to refine the models, measurements, and calculations or continue to study the issue.

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Thursday, September 15, 2011 4:53 PM

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

"I think the fellow .."

By that, do you mean Rap?

The use of the word 'incontrovertible' is rare in science, but not unheard of. For example, it is incontrovertible that gravity is a force of attraction between two masses. If I measure the temperature of ice and the temperature of boiling water in degrees Celcius, it is incontrovertible that ice is colder than boiling water. By all measurements taken and all observations made - average sea temperature, average land temperature, glaciers in retreat and permafrost melting globally, average air temperature, temperature-related changes in biomes, global ice core data, it is incontrovertible that the earth is warmer than before. It is a matter of measurement and data.

And, btw, that is all that is claimed as being incontrovertible. Not necessarily that it's man made, not even that it's due to CO2 - just that the earth IS warmer.

Remember when teachers, public employees, Planned Parenthood, NPR and PBS crashed the stock market, wiped out half of our 401Ks, took trillions in taxpayer funded bailouts, spilled oil in the Gulf of Mexico, gave themselves billions in bonuses, and paid no taxes?

Yeah, me neither....

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Thursday, September 15, 2011 4:59 PM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

BYTE: I skim posts, I did not read to the bottom of yours. Sorry for jumping the gun.

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Thursday, September 15, 2011 5:04 PM

Gravity is incontrovertible since it's a law... To a degree. Some have wondered if the relativistic modifications to gravity are quite right, as you might be able to recalculate them in a way that doesn't require dark matter and dark energy in the universe.

Your other examples, however, are not.

-If I measure the temperature of ice and the temperature of boiling water

Low temperature vacuum.

-it is incontrovertible that the earth is warmer than before. It is a matter of measurement and data.

But not the exact numbers or difference, which may vary depending on measurements used, methods of calculating average global temperature from the large amounts of raw data, differences between the northern hemisphere and southern hemisphere and so on. You might be able to replicate the results with one set of data, but I suspect with other sets of data there might be minute differences, which would compound in the end results. That, unfortunately, is a downfall of statistics.

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Thursday, September 15, 2011 5:08 PM

NEWOLDBROWNCOAT

Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
To NOBC, explaining how it's still significant that they are migrating from New Zealand, but that we have to be careful about sensationalism.

We were arguing against the concept of neutrality and skepticism in science, I believe? You're making a good showing for the opposition.

Not sure what you mean, exactly. I agree: it's still significant, and we do have to be careful about sensationalism.
I WAS mostly making a joke about the ALASKA to the SOUTH POLE thing, and I WAS wrong about that fact.
I do agree about neutrality in science- results should be testable by repeated experiments by neutral parties.
By that standard, climate science cannot be science, can it? We ain't got a test tube big enough, and ain't got enough years to test it.

But as I wrote above there somewhere, there is a lot of observable evidence that suggests that the theory is correct. It seems from the article that the crab migration was one of the things predicted about global warming-- now it seems to have come true, validating the prediction. Validating the prediction is therefore evidence suggesting that the theory is good. Not PROOF, but more evidence suggesting that it's valid.

As far as skepticism goes, yeah, some is good: a goodly number of scientists have questioned accepted theory, only to be proven correct, and thereby bringing new insights.

I do have considerable doubts about the neutrality and skepticism of some of the folks opposing global warming theory-- too many of them COULD BE shills of folks who already have a fog in the fight.

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Thursday, September 15, 2011 5:15 PM

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Quote:
It's poor science, and he's absolutely right.
And rappy would know this... how? Because he understands the scientific method? Because he's all about the facts? Because he has a shred of logic?

Yanno, the fact that this comes from someone who has complete disdain for evidence makes this statement nothing more than a joke.

I'm all about facts and logic and evidence. Have been for a long time. You're the joke for even suggesting that I have any disdain for such things, and are only showing your complete and total ignorance on such matters yourself.

" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Thursday, September 15, 2011 5:16 PM

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by 1kiki:
"It's poor science, and he's absolutely right."

Except he's a proponent of equally poor science in the other direction. Do you dismiss HIS poor science as well, based on it being poor science?

He has no 'poor science', in the least. He's absolutely right. You not liking to hear the truth does not make it any less valid.

Deal w/ it.

" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Thursday, September 15, 2011 5:18 PM

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

"exact numbers"

Uhm - do I need to say the earth is overall 0.572 C warmer not 0.773 C warmer in order to say it is warmer? Really? You are going to hang your argument on minute differences in amount of 'warmer' because slightly more warmer or slightly less warmer somehow nullifies 'warmer'?

Remember when teachers, public employees, Planned Parenthood, NPR and PBS crashed the stock market, wiped out half of our 401Ks, took trillions in taxpayer funded bailouts, spilled oil in the Gulf of Mexico, gave themselves billions in bonuses, and paid no taxes?

Yeah, me neither....

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Thursday, September 15, 2011 5:18 PM

I've been snippy all week.

I actually do think there's something to climate change what with the storm intensity thing, I'm just trying to avoid getting into the political side.

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Thursday, September 15, 2011 5:21 PM

Quote:
Uhm - do I need to say the earth is overall 0.572 C warmer not 0.773 C warmer in order to say it is warmer? Really? You are going to hang your argument on minute differences in amount of 'warmer' because slightly more warmer or slightly less warmer somehow nullifies 'warmer'?

If we believe in climate change, then I believe we would both say that decimals can make something of a difference, wouldn't we?

Data and results are not and should not ever be incontrovertible, and we must be willing to refine, not just accept what's already been done. Otherwise our understanding will remain incomplete. Just like gravity and dark matter. We can't be afraid to question.

I didn't say nullifies warmer, by the way. Argue with ME, not what you want me to say. I'm not any kind of denier.

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Thursday, September 15, 2011 5:25 PM

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

"Dr. Giaever was quoted declaring himself a man-made global warming dissenter." http://icecap.us/

In other words, he's not waiting for facts - his mind is made up.

Remember when teachers, public employees, Planned Parenthood, NPR and PBS crashed the stock market, wiped out half of our 401Ks, took trillions in taxpayer funded bailouts, spilled oil in the Gulf of Mexico, gave themselves billions in bonuses, and paid no taxes?

Yeah, me neither....

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Thursday, September 15, 2011 5:26 PM

That wasn't directed at you NOBC. Sig thought I said something I didn't, and I was being bitchy about it.

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Thursday, September 15, 2011 5:28 PM

Sure, 1kiki, but you aren't considering the point Anthony and I made, that he can be wrong about everything else, he can even be clueless about the field (and he seems to be, as it isn't his field at all). But he can still have a point about science not being incontrovertible.

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Thursday, September 15, 2011 5:34 PM

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

"Data and results are not and should not ever be incontrovertible ..."

Unless they are proved wrong, measurements and data tend to stand. The theories behind them may undergo radical revision based on small differences in measured properties.

Remember when teachers, public employees, Planned Parenthood, NPR and PBS crashed the stock market, wiped out half of our 401Ks, took trillions in taxpayer funded bailouts, spilled oil in the Gulf of Mexico, gave themselves billions in bonuses, and paid no taxes?

Yeah, me neither....

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Thursday, September 15, 2011 5:37 PM

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

"But he can still have a point about science not being incontrovertible."

But no one is saying 'science' is incontrovertible. Or that global warming being man made is incontrovertible. Or even that it being due to CO2 is incontrovertible. The only claim made is that the data show that the earth is incontrovertibly warmer than before. Just like boiling water is incontrovertibly warmer than ice.

The earth is warmer. Warmer than when glaciers around the globe came into being. Warmer than when the boreal forests were established. Warmer than when the permafrost first froze. Warmer than when people first started looking for the 'northwest passage' through Arctic ice. Warmer than when king crabs got isolated from the Antarctic. Warmer.

Exactly where ... how much ... since when ... how quickly ... due to what ... these are all important questions that can only be answered by painstakingly accounting for all those small discrepancies. But the fact of warmer - well, that is a fact.

Remember when teachers, public employees, Planned Parenthood, NPR and PBS crashed the stock market, wiped out half of our 401Ks, took trillions in taxpayer funded bailouts, spilled oil in the Gulf of Mexico, gave themselves billions in bonuses, and paid no taxes?

Yeah, me neither....

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Thursday, September 15, 2011 5:45 PM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

"Unless they are proved wrong"

Hello,

Incontrovertible things cannot be proved wrong. That's what incontrovertible means.

Unquestionable, irrefutable.

So if there's an unless... if there's any unless...

Speaking of which...

I remember reading once that water can boil and freeze simultaneously. Crazy stuff.

--Anthony

_______________________________________________

"In every war, the state enacts a tax of freedom upon the citizenry. The unspoken promise is that the tax shall be revoked at war's end. Endless war holds no such promise. Hence, Eternal War is Eternal Slavery." --Admiral Robert J. Henner

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Thursday, September 15, 2011 5:48 PM

"Unless they are proved wrong, measurements and data tend to stand."

Okay, perhaps conclusions is the better word. Standing on the shoulders of giants and whatnot. But in some cases you can still remeasure, which can be important for verification.

"The only claim made is that the data show that the earth is incontrovertibly warmer than before. Just like boiling water is incontrovertibly warmer than ice. "

Erg, this is hard because I agree with the sentiment, but I can't agree with the incontrovertible thing...

And no, boiling water is not always warmer than ice, that's not a very good analogy.

"The earth is warmer. Warmer than when glaciers around the globe came into being. Warmer than when the boreal forests were established. Warmer than when the permafrost first froze. Warmer than when people first started looking for the 'northwest passage' through Arctic ice. Warmer than when king crabs got isolated from the Antarctic. Warmer."

And here you're talking about some things that actually happened well before humans and agriculture started affecting things. I mean, again, I agree with the sentiment, it's just committing unquestionably to an idea is a good way to end up burned if it turns out not quite right or in need of refinement for better understanding. I have my opinion of what's going on, but my policy is to remain neutral, and propose solutions that work no matter the actual situation.

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Thursday, September 15, 2011 5:54 PM

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

"Unless they are proved wrong"

There is always a small chance - no matter how infinitesimally small - that something will fall away from urth. That boiling water will get hotter while the ice cube in it will get colder. That all the temperature measurements will be found to be wrong because the statistical errors found in all measurements just all happen to line up in the same direction - every time. Not a really big chance, mind you. Do you want to hang your skepticism on that?

Remember when teachers, public employees, Planned Parenthood, NPR and PBS crashed the stock market, wiped out half of our 401Ks, took trillions in taxpayer funded bailouts, spilled oil in the Gulf of Mexico, gave themselves billions in bonuses, and paid no taxes?

Yeah, me neither....

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Thursday, September 15, 2011 5:59 PM

>_>

Yes. *shrug* There's no other way to do it, if you're going to do science.

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Thursday, September 15, 2011 5:59 PM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

"Do you want to hang your skepticism on that?"

Hello,

My skepticism? We are talking about the word incontrovertible.

Which is, as I understand it, meaningless in the scientific realm where possibilities abound like faerie folk in an Irish glade.

Why ruin something so beautiful as infinite possibility?

--Anthony

_______________________________________________

"In every war, the state enacts a tax of freedom upon the citizenry. The unspoken promise is that the tax shall be revoked at war's end. Endless war holds no such promise. Hence, Eternal War is Eternal Slavery." --Admiral Robert J. Henner

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Thursday, September 15, 2011 6:18 PM

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

"There's no other way to do it, if you're going to do science."

"Why ruin something so beautiful as infinite possibility?"

Then why take measurements at all? Why create and test theories? Why do science, if the universe is subject to your big mental 'whatEVER it's all MEANINGLESS' shrug?

If you claim to be interested in science, at a certain point the possibilities must yield to observation and measurement, to prediction and testing, to old theories and new revolutionary ideas. But simply dismissing all measurement, all observation, all data as meaningless is not scientific skepticism. And it's really, REALLY childish and kind of stupid.

Remember when teachers, public employees, Planned Parenthood, NPR and PBS crashed the stock market, wiped out half of our 401Ks, took trillions in taxpayer funded bailouts, spilled oil in the Gulf of Mexico, gave themselves billions in bonuses, and paid no taxes?

Yeah, me neither....

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Thursday, September 15, 2011 7:13 PM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Quote:
Originally posted by 1kiki:
"There's no other way to do it, if you're going to do science."

"Why ruin something so beautiful as infinite possibility?"

Then why take measurements at all? Why create and test theories? Why do science, if the universe is subject to your big mental 'whatEVER it's all MEANINGLESS' shrug?

If you claim to be interested in science, at a certain point the possibilities must yield to observation and measurement, to prediction and testing, to old theories and new revolutionary ideas. But simply dismissing all measurement, all observation, all data as meaningless is not scientific skepticism. And it's really, REALLY childish and kind of stupid.

Remember when teachers, public employees, Planned Parenthood, NPR and PBS crashed the stock market, wiped out half of our 401Ks, took trillions in taxpayer funded bailouts, spilled oil in the Gulf of Mexico, gave themselves billions in bonuses, and paid no taxes?

Yeah, me neither....

Hello,

How silly. We must take actions based on the best information available to us at any given time.

Leaving oneself open is not akin to disbelieving the totality of existence.

It is merely akin to acknowledging that you may not know the totality of existence.

--Anthony

_______________________________________________

"In every war, the state enacts a tax of freedom upon the citizenry. The unspoken promise is that the tax shall be revoked at war's end. Endless war holds no such promise. Hence, Eternal War is Eternal Slavery." --Admiral Robert J. Henner

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Thursday, September 15, 2011 7:56 PM

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

"My skepticism? We are talking about the word incontrovertible.
Which is, as I understand it, meaningless in the scientific realm where possibilities abound like faerie folk in an Irish glade.
Why ruin something so beautiful as infinite possibility?"

We can ALWAYS debate the nature of reality. Do I exist? Does the world? Or is this my dream, or yours? Or someone else's? Is there such a thing as cause and effect or merely the appearance of before and after? Is nature probabilistic or mechanistic?

But to do science - REAL science, not your faerie version - we have to assume that we can derive meaningful information from the world. That if we measure something often enough and get the same result, it reflects a property of the world.

Unless you want to dismiss the entire notion of reality and the process of science, then yes, it is incontrovertible that the earth is warmer.

Remember when teachers, public employees, Planned Parenthood, NPR and PBS crashed the stock market, wiped out half of our 401Ks, took trillions in taxpayer funded bailouts, spilled oil in the Gulf of Mexico, gave themselves billions in bonuses, and paid no taxes?

Yeah, me neither....

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Friday, September 16, 2011 1:21 AM

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Unless you want to dismiss the entire notion of reality and the process of science, then yes, it is incontrovertible that the earth is warmer.

That the Earth warms and cools over it's 4. something billion yr old history, isn't being dismissed by anyone.

" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Friday, September 16, 2011 1:23 AM

KWICKO

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
Quote:
Originally posted by 1kiki:
"It's poor science, and he's absolutely right."

Except he's a proponent of equally poor science in the other direction. Do you dismiss HIS poor science as well, based on it being poor science?

He has no 'poor science', in the least. He's absolutely right. You not liking to hear the truth does not make it any less valid.

Deal w/ it.

" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

Would you say his "facts" are "incontrovertible"?

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Friday, September 16, 2011 4:39 AM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

"But to do science - REAL science, not your faerie version"

Hello,

In Real Science, Nothing is incontrovertible. Scientists simply make the best decisions they can based on the best information available. But someday, some radical discovery may always come to the fore that proves the best information available to have been incorrect or incorrectly interpreted.

"Anything can happen, child. Anything can be."
-Shel Silverstein

That is the wonder of science. Not magic, nor even faeries, really. For a belief based in faith can never be proven wrong, but a belief based in science can be. Always. All you need is new, better data- or a better way of interpreting it.

Is it my fault if I find that to be poetic and beautiful?

--Anthony

_______________________________________________

"In every war, the state enacts a tax of freedom upon the citizenry. The unspoken promise is that the tax shall be revoked at war's end. Endless war holds no such promise. Hence, Eternal War is Eternal Slavery." --Admiral Robert J. Henner

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Friday, September 16, 2011 5:00 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Actually, there is a part of science that is incontrovertible and that are definitions.

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Friday, September 16, 2011 5:06 AM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Actually, there is a part of science that is incontrovertible and that are definitions.

Hello,

Tell us about it.

--Anthony

_______________________________________________

"In every war, the state enacts a tax of freedom upon the citizenry. The unspoken promise is that the tax shall be revoked at war's end. Endless war holds no such promise. Hence, Eternal War is Eternal Slavery." --Admiral Robert J. Henner

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Friday, September 16, 2011 6:36 AM