REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

The future of capitalism

POSTED BY: KPO
UPDATED: Sunday, September 25, 2011 20:08
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Friday, September 23, 2011 7:25 AM

KPO

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.


Some interesting opinions here:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-14972015

It's not personal. It's just war.

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Friday, September 23, 2011 9:10 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


I wish you'd put up some of the text, KPO. I found it very interesting.

The question is "Has Western Capitalism Failed"? Some responses from some supposedly knowledgeable in such things:
Quote:

My answer to this question would be no. But I also wonder whether capitalism should be answering to the prosecution.

We failed as regulators, we failed as supervisors, we failed as corporate governance managers, we failed as risk managers, and we also failed in the allocation of roles and responsibilities for international economic organisations.

Some international organisations saw the crisis coming. Some even managed to put out some warnings, but they did not co-ordinate their assessments, they did not speak with one strong voice.

Thus, they were ignored in an atmosphere of great prosperity where everybody was making a lot of money and everybody thought that innovation was the name of the game - and by warning that something could go wrong, you would look like you were holding progress back.

There was also the philosophy that markets needed to function with the least possible government intervention. But that did not mean that they could work without any intervention at all, nor did it necessarily mean that the intervention could be such a light touch that you were not able to identify risks.

Quote:

The extreme form of capitalism which has permeated the world, particularly in the last 30-40 years, is in deep trouble and we are in denial.

It is important to understand that fundamental principles of capitalism - that human beings are rational and markets behave rationally, and that markets will assign prices - are flawed.

It is also important to understand the roots of modern capitalism.

You could argue that slavery was the first attempt to under-price resources. When slavery came to an end there was colonisation, which was again an attempt by the capitalist model to use resources cheaply. With the end of colonies, we had the globalisation argument of economic growth and then the globalisation of finance.

When I speak about this in Europe, they say there has been 30 years of over-leverage, but I say they should multiply that by 10 and look at 300 years of essentially exploited growth.

What we need to recognise now is that the world is a very different place from what it was 100 years ago when we had one billion people.

With a current population approaching seven billion, things will have to change.

A fundamental issue that the world will have to recognise, and which Western capitalism has conveniently ignored, is that the goods and services which companies and economies seem to thrive on are based on under-pricing resources and externalising costs.

That game is over and we need a fundamental restructuring - essentially about how people will live, and we need to move beyond simple notions about growth to more sophisticated, nuanced discussions about human progress.

Quote:

Every society clings to a myth by which it lives.

Ours is the myth of economic growth. For the last five decades, the pursuit of growth has been the single most important policy goal across the world. The global economy is five times the size it was half a century ago. If it continues to grow at the same rate it will be 80 times that size by the year 2100.

This extraordinary ramping up of global economic activity is without historical precedent. It is totally at odds with the finite resource base and the fragile ecology on which we depend for survival.

Most of the time, we avoid the stark reality of these numbers. Growth must go on, we insist.

The reasons for this collective blindness are easy enough to find.

Western capitalism is structurally reliant on growth for its stability. When growth falters - as it has done recently - politicians panic. Businesses struggle to survive. People lose their jobs and sometimes their homes.

Questioning growth is deemed to be the act of lunatics, idealists and revolutionaries.

Yet question it we must. The myth of growth has failed us. It has failed the two billion people who still live on less than $2 a day. It has failed the fragile ecological systems on which we depend for survival.

But economic crisis presents us with a unique opportunity to invest in change. To sweep away the short-term thinking that has plagued society for decades. To engage, for instance, in a radical overhaul of dysfunctional capital markets.

I found that one particularly pertinent. I've always wondered "Everything is based on growth; what happens when there is no more to grow? You can't keep growing infinitely." I still don't understand it.


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off



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Friday, September 23, 2011 1:31 PM

DREAMTROVE


Our capitalism was corrupted by socialism. The US and EU govt. interference in both taxation and stimulus has led to a govt. managed economy, a capitalist-socialist hybrid, and it's not new, it's been true ever since they let JM Keynes in the front door.

Asia has copied our old model of capitalism and are much better at it than we ever were. Japan is economically like something out of the 1950s, and Korea is more like the 1920s, but both with a new eastern twist. China is like something out of the 1890s. As for Chinese communism, it hardly touches the S. China capitalism except to form its own old boy network of ruling wealthy elite, but systematically? There's no communism in it. We don't import from communist China, we import from capitalist states currently being occupied by communist China. You might notice that your iPad was made in Shenzhou, not in Beijing.


That's what a ship is, you know - it's not just a keel and a hull and a deck and sails, that's what a ship needs.

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Friday, September 23, 2011 2:06 PM

M52NICKERSON

DALEK!


Quote:

Originally posted by dreamtrove:
Our capitalism was corrupted by socialism. The US and EU govt. interference in both taxation and stimulus has led to a govt. managed economy, a capitalist-socialist hybrid, and it's not new, it's been true ever since they let JM Keynes in the front door.



It was true far before Keynes, no pure capitalist system has ever existed and maintained. Without controls and regulations a free market will implode sooner or later.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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Friday, September 23, 2011 5:04 PM

FREMDFIRMA


The "future" of capitalism is a barren, radioactive wasteland devoid of human life - for two reasons, the first being that it is inherently predatory, and without willing victims it must them prey upon the unwilling, who will not take it laying down, and the second is that it is a failed ideology to being with, since like the rest it self-selects and actively attempts to destroy any alternatives due to a (rightful) belief that it cannot SURVIVE in the presence of alternatives, since people will flock to those less horrible alternatives instead, and so closing that route and forcing them to suffer is the only way that ideology will survive, even if it is so obviously unsustainable as to doom them all.

The very NATURE of capitalism is predatory, cannibalistic even, and if your diet is exclusively your fellowman, sooner or later you will either eat yourself out of existence, or be destroyed utterly by those who will not lay down and be your victims, but either way a non-sustainable, completely failed ideology who's only response to it's obvious failure is an attempt to destroy all else and drag the unwilling to hell right with them.

Well, we the unwilling ain't gonna go down easy, let's just leave it at that.

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

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Sunday, September 25, 2011 7:25 PM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht


I'm into moderation. Some capitalism is fine and good but it can't be straight up capitalism with no regulations or else we'll all be humped. Straight up other techniques don't work so well either, extremes tend to be problematic.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

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Sunday, September 25, 2011 7:54 PM

PHOENIXSHIP


Is a little socialism really a bad thing? Doesn't that moderate the capitalism? Socialism doesn't have to equal dictatorship, past history not withstanding.

"Why're you arguin' what's already been decided?"
Mal to Jayne, "Jaynestown"

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Sunday, September 25, 2011 8:08 PM

PHOENIXSHIP


Wow, you don't mince words... Capitalism isn't inherently evil, it just requires some safeguards. It's a conundrum, because those safeguards have to be set up and maintained by the powerful, who have every reason not to do so.

We've made it work in America... I don't think the US is any better than any other country, and I don't think US citizens are superior to citizens of other countries. We have one simple advantage - the constitution. Hard to believe that what dubya called "that goddamned piece of paper" could be responsible for 250 years of pedal-to-the-metal success, but IMHO it's what elevates us above other societies.

Of course, 250 years is a blink of an eye... a moment in history that some other countries would scoff at. We haven't proved anything yet. If we're still alive and kicking in 750 more years, than maybe we can legitimately claim success.

Also, I disagree - I don't think that capitalism has to be "cannibalistic" or as violent as you make it out to be. That's the extreme iteration that can be prevented through regulation and moderation, and yes - a touch of SOCIALISM!!! I see capitalism as constant competition - the logical and civilized extension of the survival instinct that has served humanity so well.

I will say that our constant obsession with growth clearly has to end somewhere. Unfortunately, nobody wants that to happen on their watch, so we expand relentlessly, polluting and consuming and conquering every last inch on the finite globe we inhabit. If we could regulate that, it would be a real trick.

"Why're you arguin' what's already been decided?"
Mal to Jayne, "Jaynestown"

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