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Originally posted by Kirkules:
Many Greeks fear a vicious circle: a death spiral of more austerity measures, further economic contraction and correspondingly lower tax revenues, making it that much harder to make a dent in the debt, pushing the country toward default in spite of the austerity."

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Originally posted by Niki2:

Amusing, isn't it? Proof the current insistence on "cut, cut, cut" isn't working, but gawd forbid we should learn from it and try something else!

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There are real problems in this world shit-storm.

But first, let us be cleat that it was NOT "Fannie and Freddie" that started the shit-storm,.

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The normal course of events is for governments to step in, and re-expand the money supply by spending more into the economy. This creates demand, which creates jobs, which creates growth. The idea is that governments economic, fiscal and monetary policies work in counter-cyclical fashion: When capitalism goes bust.... as it does routinely... the government is there to pick up the pieces.

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Originally posted by 1kiki:
Just want to point out the ridiculousness of Rappy claiming to know anything.

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Originally posted by Kirkules:
How anyone can see the Greek example as a result of to little Keynesian stimulus is beyond me. Your answer to excessive spending is more spending? You don't need to be an economic genius to know the first thing you do when you've dug yourself into a hole is quit digging.

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Originally posted by 1kiki:
Just want to point out the ridiculousness of Rappy claiming to know anything.

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Originally posted by AURaptor:

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Originally posted by Niki2:

Amusing, isn't it? Proof the current insistence on "cut, cut, cut" isn't working, but gawd forbid we should learn from it and try something else!

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Isn't working ? What the fuck are you even talking about ? It's not even been TRIED yet! And as for all the big govt spending, the 'shovel ready' jobs Obama and the Left promised... THAT'S what isn't working.

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Originally posted by 1kiki:
I think it's also obvious that middle class welfare states can be completely successful, so there is nothing intrinsically wrong with the idea. It's all in the execution.

OTOH I can't think of a capitalist economy yet that could run indefinitely without crashing and burning and hurting - even killing - a lot of people in the process. But then, that makes sense. If people are a commodity in the capitalist system, and commodities need to be destroyed to 'market-forces' rebalance the economy after a crash, then people need to be destroyed.


Remember when teachers, public employees, Planned Parenthood, NPR and PBS crashed the stock market, wiped out half of our 401Ks, took trillions in taxpayer funded bailouts, spilled oil in the Gulf of Mexico, gave themselves billions in bonuses, and paid no taxes?

Yeah, me neither....

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Originally posted by Kirkules:
How anyone can see the Greek example as a result of to little Keynesian stimulus is beyond me. Your answer to excessive spending is more spending? You don't need to be an economic genius to know the first thing you do when you've dug yourself into a hole is quit digging.

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Originally posted by AURaptor:
kwickie, you're wrong ( as usual )

Bush's tax cuts worked just fine. But excessive spending by both parties (and mainly Democrats, after 2006 ) put our economy into a nose dive.

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Originally posted by AURaptor:5% unemployment vs 9.2 % unemployment. Even after nearly a trillion $ stimulus package was passed, which were were told we HAD to have, or else unemployment would hit 8.0% !!!!

Well, we got it, and unemployment shot right past 8.0% anyways, past 9.0 %....

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Originally posted by AURaptor:Time to put away foolish, childish ideas such as middle class welfare state, and let the American people get back to work.

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Originally posted by m52nickerson:

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Originally posted by Kirkules:
How anyone can see the Greek example as a result of to little Keynesian stimulus is beyond me. Your answer to excessive spending is more spending? You don't need to be an economic genius to know the first thing you do when you've dug yourself into a hole is quit digging.

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Because economies are like streams. When money is flowing things are good, when it is not, things get stagnate.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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Originally posted by Kwicko:

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Originally posted by Kirkules:
How anyone can see the Greek example as a result of to little Keynesian stimulus is beyond me. Your answer to excessive spending is more spending? You don't need to be an economic genius to know the first thing you do when you've dug yourself into a hole is quit digging.

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Okay, show us all YOUR keen intellect. List all the successful large economies that have zero government spending and no deficits or debts.

I'll wait.

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Originally posted by Kirkules:

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Originally posted by Kwicko:

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Originally posted by Kirkules:
How anyone can see the Greek example as a result of to little Keynesian stimulus is beyond me. Your answer to excessive spending is more spending? You don't need to be an economic genius to know the first thing you do when you've dug yourself into a hole is quit digging.

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Okay, show us all YOUR keen intellect. List all the successful large economies that have zero government spending and no deficits or debts.

I'll wait.

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You'll be waiting a long time if you are unable to make a relevant point. First you should point out what I said that leads you to believe that I want zero government spending.

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Originally posted by Kirkules:

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Originally posted by m52nickerson:

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Originally posted by Kirkules:
How anyone can see the Greek example as a result of to little Keynesian stimulus is beyond me. Your answer to excessive spending is more spending? You don't need to be an economic genius to know the first thing you do when you've dug yourself into a hole is quit digging.

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Because economies are like streams. When money is flowing things are good, when it is not, things get stagnate.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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Thinking like yours is exactly what got us into this mess in the first place. People thinking that just moving money around is some how creating wealth. Any real sustainable economy is based on making real things that people want and need. Creating money by government hocus pocus just reduces the incentive to make real things. Government has never created a single net job because the money they remove from the economy causes businesses not hire three or more people for every one job the government forces us to pay for. The reason Greece will never recover from this collapse is because every time things start to look a little beter they will return to their old ways because it is ingrained in their society now. There is still hope for our future because we are just now reaching the point were 50% rely on gov spend so we sill have a small majority that know living without government subsidy means a better life for all. There's a bigger pie to share without the government taking a big slice before the money has had a chance to create real wealth in the economy. We will always need basic safety nets for those unable to do for themselves, but the days of liberal benefits for all is coming to an end worldwide as it inevitably always will.

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Originally posted by Kirkules:

Thinking like yours is exactly what got us into this mess in the first place. People thinking that just moving money around is some how creating wealth. Any real sustainable economy is based on making real things that people want and need. Creating money by government hocus pocus just reduces the incentive to make real things. Government has never created a single net job because the money they remove from the economy causes businesses not hire three or more people for every one job the government forces us to pay for. The reason Greece will never recover from this collaps is because every time things start to look a little beter they will return to their old ways because it is ingrained in their society now. There is still hope for our future because we are just now reaching the point were 50% rely on gov spend so we sill have a small majority that know living without government subsidy means a better life for all. There's a bigger pie to share without the government taking a big slice before the money has had a chance to create real wealth in the economy. We will always need basic safety nets for those unable to do for themselves, but the days of liberal benefits for all is coming to an end worldwide as it inevitably always will.

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Originally posted by Kirkules:
Keynesian stimulus might actually help slightly in a very minor economic downturn, but that would only be the case if you go into the downturn with a low dept load or reserves. Going into a major downturn while already having accumulated an economy crushing dept load more that nullifies any benefit of additional spending. One of the reasons the current economy may be a final nail in the coffin of Keynesian economics is that in the past the government spending levels were never high enough during recessions to conclusively prove or disprove Keynes. The economy has grown so large now that we are incapable of borrowing or making enough money to be significant in percentage terms to the whole economy and that may make it no longer even be posible to test Keynes theory.

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Originally posted by m52nickerson:
I disagree that the economy is now to large to testing the theory and to properly stimulate the economy. The debt crisis right now is more or less self made. The US is not having trouble borrowing money, nor would we have to barrow every bit of stimulus. Some spending that is not stimulating can be shifted as well as increasing revenues.

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Yeah, it was. The sooner you come to accept that fact, the sooner you'll be up to speed with how to fix the problem.

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This is a colossal misunderstanding of how the economy is suppose to work.

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Originally posted by Kwicko:
Welcome to laissez-faire feudalism. Enjoy, but remember, once in a while the peasants get their hands on a guillotine.

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Originally posted by Kirkules:

The more you borrow the harder it becomes and the cost of money go up. Economies that have reached 100% of GDP dept loads a paying 7% or more in interest. There's little doubt it would be the same for us. It all has to do with your ability to repay, that's why US debt was downgraded. If we continue to borrow we will get more downgrades and interest rates will become prohibitively high.

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Originally posted by 1kiki:
After WWII the government had an extremely high debt load, which it payed down with extremely high top tier tax rates. And the US economy boomed. There is nothing wrong with taxes apparently as a cure for government debt.

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So it would seem that taxes alone weren't the cure. Ending the war (or wars, in the present instance) might be a bigger factor.

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Posted by SignyM:


This is a colossal misunderstanding of how economy REALLY works. This wouldn't be the first time that reality and theory parted ways.

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Originally posted by 1kiki:
Kirkules

You have yet to show that the 'Collapse of the Middle Class Welfare State' actually happened as it is clearly thriving in many countries and only potentially collapsing in a selected few others. In order to claim collapse, doesn't it have to have actually collapsed?


Remember when teachers, public employees, Planned Parenthood, NPR and PBS crashed the stock market, wiped out half of our 401Ks, took trillions in taxpayer funded bailouts, spilled oil in the Gulf of Mexico, gave themselves billions in bonuses, and paid no taxes?

Yeah, me neither....

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Originally posted by SignyM:

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So it would seem that taxes alone weren't the cure. Ending the war (or wars, in the present instance) might be a bigger factor.

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So, do you support ending US intervention abroad, when the USA is not directly threatened?

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Originally posted by SignyM:
So, do you support ending US intervention abroad, when the USA is not directly threatened?

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Originally posted by 1kiki:
That the war ended was a happy result of history. Eisenhower's high taxes were deliberate policy to pay down the war debt: "We cannot afford to reduce taxes, and reduce (government) income until we have in sight a program of expenditure that shows that the factors of income and outgo will be balanced.” When faced with a debt that had been already rung up, Eisenhower raised top-bracket taxes, which had begun to drop, to pay it down.

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