REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Why ron paul has ZERO chance to win the republican presidential primary

POSTED BY: NIKI2
UPDATED: Thursday, November 3, 2011 03:48
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VIEWED: 2377
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Saturday, October 29, 2011 7:30 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


As I've said before, for me, he has some good ideas...he just takes them right over a cliff. Apparently even RedState agrees, for their own reasons:
Quote:

1. His foreign policy ideas are simply the same recycled bad ideas that Jimmy Carter had. A foreign policy of ”let’s hide our head in the sand like an ostrich and blame big bad America and hope that everyone leaves us alone” is not only ignorant, but also dangerous for our country. And the big winners in last November’s elections were the ones who espoused ”american exceptionalism”, not the ones who espoused ”anti-american apologism”. Now I will admit Ron Paul’s foreign policy message would go over well with the Code Pink/Dennis Kucinich voters, but those type of people tend to be Democrats, not Republicans. One of my facebook friends put it best when he said ”if Ron Paul had been president during World War 2, we would all be speaking German now”.

2. He has no real political power. And this was proven beyond a shadow of a doubt in 2008. Yes, he can win any ONLINE presidential poll. So what. In 2007 the paulbots hijacked the same online polls and Ron Paul won them all. His followers then posed articles all over the internet touting his candidacy. He then suckered his gullible followers telling them that the ”polls showed he could win” and send to him money. Then came the 2008 primaries. Out of the 50 states that were availible for Ron Paul to win, guess how many he won? ZERO. And that is spelled Z-E-R-O. Now let’s go to the present day. His internet saavy paulbots are again winning all the online and straw polls for their idol. His followers are again posting articles about him like he actually has a legitimate chance to win. Next is going to come the annual ”moneybomb” when Ron Paul once again fleeces his followers by pointing out that he is ahead in the polls and has a chance to win this time. But their delusional fantasy is going to run into a buzzsaw called Republican primary voters. Paul got absolutely destroyed when he ran in 1988, got whipped by John McCain in 2008, and he will be a three time loser in 2012.

3. There are plenty of people who are ”one issue voters” in politics. And in the Republican party there are plenty of people that ”opposition to islam” is the one issue they feel strongly about. You can go to any anti islam or conservative jewish site and see that the two politicians that are diliked the most are Obama and Ron Paul. Ron Paul has said ”I don’t believe for one minute the religion of islam is our enemy”. And Paul also attacked the Sunshine Patriots for their oppostion to the ground zero mosque. Now i am not going to debate the muslim issue here, but the fact that a decent sized voting group in your own party considers you one of their main foes is certainly not good news for your campaign. Now to be fair, you will get the people who think Israel is oppressing Palestine and the pro muslim agenda voters will be on Paul’s side. The only problem with that is almost all of that crowd are Democrats who support Obama.

4. Let’s look at Ron Paul’s position on crack cocaine and heroin. Now I am totally fine with legalizing pot and prostitution in any state if the voters want it. If somebody wants to get laid or smoke a joint it sure isn’t any of my business. But we are talking about legalizing hard drugs because Ron Paul says that the government is unconstitutionally sticking its nose in peoples business by not allowing it. I say once it becomes legal, who is going to cover the costs of the people that get addicted to it to go to rehab or treatment centers. And please don’t say the addict. Probably the government will have to. Great, now here comes a great big expansion of government to fight the drug war that was ”caused by the tea party candidate”. Which by the way, I as a taxpayer will have to cover. Increased police and court costs etc, etc. But the issue isn’t what I think or Ron Paul thinks, the issue is what does the Republican primary voter think of this policy. The ”religious right” will certainly oppose it full force. And I would think that anyone that has had a family member suffer through the addiction process will be opposed to it. That’s two groups opposed. Of course, Paul will pick up the ”left wing hippie” vote and the anarchists vote. Except the left wing hippies are already card carrying members of the Democratic party. And all the anarchists who want to overthrow big bad America are already his supporters.

5. If he were alive today, Ronald Reagan would strongly oppose him. Reagan believed in spending generously on our national defense and certainly had an interventionist foreign policy. And according to the Ron Paul playbook, that would make the greatest president of my era ”a neocon”. Their policies and beliefs are totally and completely different. Naturally Ron Paul’s followers will attempt to hide that fact by showing you an old video of Ronald Reagan praising Ron Paul as a candidate and using that as proof that Ronald Reagan would support Ron Paul in 2012. Now watch me dismantle that silly argument!!! Does anyone remember Senator Arlen Specter of Pennsylvania? Arlen was the senator that everyone on tea party and conservative sites called a liberal RINO. He was challenged by a tea party backed conservative in the primary named Pat Toomey and when Specter saw how opposed conservatives were to his candidacy he changed parties to Democrat. He voted for TARP, Obama’s socialized health care plan, and was pro affirmative action and amnesty. Yet, Reagan praised him as a true conservative back in the 1980's and even cut a campaign ad for him. But go ask a Pennsylvania tea partier what they think of Specter today. LOL. If you were a House or Senate member, and of course running as a Republican, Ronald Reagan would praise you as a candidate for office. That’s part of what a sitting president does for members of his party.

But rather than look at a 30 year old video let’s look at Ron Paul has to say about Ronald Reagan. In 1987, Ron Paul wrote a letter to Frank Fahrenkopf, chairman of the Republican National Committee, starting that he wanted to totally publically disassociate himself with the policies of Ronald Reagan(funny but he yet to publically disassociate with the 9-11 truther movement or Code Pink). He later told the Dallas Morning News that the presidency of Ronald Reagan was a ”dramatic failure”. OK, let’s take a look at the political success of both politicians and decide if that is true. In 2008 Ron Paul ran in the Republican primary for president. He got 5% of the vote. In other words, 19 OUT OF 20 REPUBLICAN PRESIDENTIAL PRIMARY VOTERS DID NOT VOTE FOR RON PAUL IN THE LAST ELECTION. In 1984, Ronald Reagan was reelected as the president of the United States in a landslide, winning 49 out of 50 states, and his 525 electoral votes were the the most of any candidate in American history. Hmmm, I think we have to score this one for the Gipper.

6. Illegal Immigration. According to the highly respected anti immigation group NUMBERS USA, Ron Paul has the lowest grade of any Republican presidential candidate out there, coming in with an F. Naturally, his paulbots try to put a spin on this by saying ”welfare and benefit programs should be unconsititutional so illegal immigrants wont come here”. If Ron Paul threw puppies off a tall building his hynoptized followers would be applauding and yelling it was ”constitutional”. That argument wont cut it with the voters. Polls overwhelmingly show that Americans are in favor of closing our borders and against all forms of amnesty. And that really holds true with Republican voters. April has posted articles by former Ron Paul allies like Tom Tancrdeo that blast Paul on the immigration issue. Yet again, Ron Paul thinks like a liberal Democrat, and in fact even has the same ”F” grade that NUMBERS USA gave Obama.

7. Paul’s pork problem. One thing career politicians learn to do is talk conservative while picking the taxpayers pocket for money. And ”Porkulus Paul” has this shady routine down pat. First of all, let’s go back to last November’s elections to get the proper perspective on this issue. The Republicans destroyed the Democrats on November 3 due to the energy and votes of the tea party!!!!! Now the tea party came in and deservedly wanted to flex it muscles. And decided to take a principled stand against the unethical practice of pork(earmarks). The fight against earmarks was led by the Tea Party Patriots(TPP) and other tea party and conservative groups against the pork loving Democrats. In fact, TPP leader Mark Meckler considered this such an important issue that he promised to run a tea party challenger against any Republican that accepted them.

“We’ll do what we always do,” said Meckler. “Our members will put immense pressure on every senator to vote against earmarks. This is a fundamental issue — it’s both substantive and symbolic. Will they vote against the politics of the past or are they still stuck in it? This is a vote that will never go away, like TARP. Tea Partiers have long memories. Politicians have always taken advantage of the fact that voters have short memories, but we’ll know, we’ll remember, and in 2012 when they have aggressive, well-funded primary challengers, they’ll know why.”

Then it came out that a Republican asked for 150 MILLION DOLLARS IN PORK FOR HIS DISTRICT!!! Surely this was a RINO. Maybe Olympia Snowe or Scott Brown? No, it was actually Ron Paul.

U.S. Rep. Ron Paul (R-Texas) was one of only four House Republicans to break rank from the party and request earmarks despite a Republican Conference earmark moratorium. Paul sent 41 earmark requests totaling $157,093,544 for the 2011 Fiscal Year. http://www.redstate.com/mikeymike143/2011/06/21/why-ron-paul-has-zero-
chance-to-win-the-republican-presidential-primary/



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Saturday, October 29, 2011 8:01 AM

CANTTAKESKY


Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:
As I've said before, for me, he has some good ideas...he just takes them right over a cliff.

And that is why he is my hero. Because over the cliff is the only place that is sane in our politically insane world.



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Saturday, October 29, 2011 1:39 PM

PIRATENEWS

John Lee, conspiracy therapist at Hollywood award-winner History Channel-mocked SNL-spoofed PirateNew.org wooHOO!!!!!!


Funny how The Operative and her Masters at the Kosher Federal Reserve Bank are terrified of Dr Paul US Citizen....




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Saturday, October 29, 2011 2:52 PM

NEWOLDBROWNCOAT


R P won BIG in another straw poll in Iowa today- got 86% of Iowa residents, out of 400 some votes. Even in that small a sample, that's a lotta percentage. ' Course, in that small a sample, he or his followers coulda packed the voting. He also beat CAIN, 26 % to 25 % in a straw poll of 100 non residents.

CNN.com had the story up for a few minutes, then buried it far down the fine print on the Politics page.

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Saturday, October 29, 2011 3:27 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by piratenews:
Funny how The Operative and her Masters at the Kosher Federal Reserve Bank are terrified of Dr Paul US Citizen....






Funny how you call Niki "The Operative" when you're the one who actually worked for (and probably STILL works for) the U.S. government, specifically its never-ending war machine.

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Sunday, October 30, 2011 12:56 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


"”if Ron Paul had been president during World War 2, we would all be speaking German now”."

Hello,

I wonder on what basis this prediction is made? We were attacked and congress declared war. All criteria were met for Paul to move the war machine. He often uses WWII as an example, in fact.

--Anthony

_______________________________________________

"In every war, the state enacts a tax of freedom upon the citizenry. The unspoken promise is that the tax shall be revoked at war's end. Endless war holds no such promise. Hence, Eternal War is Eternal Slavery." --Admiral Robert J. Henner


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Monday, October 31, 2011 5:47 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Is that what he called me, Mike? Nothing new there. Doesn't bother me, I long ago wrote PN off as a complete nutbag, so whatever he thinks (or pretends to think) about me is totally irrelevant.

The "terrified" part amuses me too. Let's see, we were "terrified" of Palin; someone recently said we're "terrified" of Cain, apparently we're supposedly "terrified" of Ron Paul too. Man, we must be some paranoid folk--or else they think we are. Or else they're so terrified of so many things they think EVERYONE is! Would that have anything to do with that old "The Authoritarians" book's definition of RWAs?
Quote:

Authoritarian followers score highly on the Dangerous World scale, and it’s not
just because some of the items have a religious context. High RWAs are, in general,
more afraid than most people are. They got a “2 for 1 Special Deal” on fear somehow.
Maybe they’ve inherited genes that incline them to fret and tremble. Maybe not. But
we do know that they were raised by their parents to be afraid of others, because both
the parents and their children tell us so. http://members.shaw.ca/jeanaltemeyer/drbob/TheAuthoritarians.pdf]



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Monday, October 31, 2011 6:19 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Update:
Quote:

Republican presidential candidate Ron Paul said Sunday his proposed plan to phase out federal student loans would lower the costs of a college education, making it more affordable for those wanting to attend.

Anybody who’s ambitious enough will get to go to college,” Paul said on CNN’s “State of the Union.”

Say WHAA?? Tell that to people who can't afford it for their children; I guess he means that only those who can afford it
Quote:

“The responsibility is on the individual and the family to take care of their needs, not the federal bureaucracy. It just doesn’t work,” Paul said.

When asked if he would agree that some people in the United States “need federal help,” Paul told CNN Chief Political Correspondent Candy Crowley that there are “always some needs, the market isn’t perfect.” http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2011/10/30/ron-paul-defends-event
ual-end-to-federal-student-loans/
...






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Monday, October 31, 2011 6:46 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Apparently I just don't conform to the "norms" - as one gets older, the common thinking goes, they tend to get more conservative, more entrenched in their thinking, more nostalgic and more missing the older, "simpler" times. I'm just not that, at all. I'm headed for 50, and for me, things aren't changing fast enough! I don't fear change, I love it! Although I'm still leery of Ethiopian food, but that's my problem, not society's...

They say 4G broader-than-broadband is coming, and I say "Why so long?" They say cars will get 55mpg by 2025, and I wonder, "What's the hold-up?" Computers, videogame systems, TVs, phones, tablets... they're all converging, we're told, but I can't help but notice that it seems to be taking forever. I don't want a CD player in my next car - I want a place where my iPad will pop into the dash, facing me, and it will be charged up while it's plugged into the car, AND it will control the car's systems as well - stereo, music, A/C & ventilation, fuel maps & stability system (Sport, Economy, Snow, Rain, etc.), and more.

I want my iPad to have Bluetooth, so it can also be my phone (think Bluetooth earbud/mic that's wirelessly "tethered" to your iPad, which is your phone/WiFi/4G portal). I want my earbud/headset to have an HD camera built into it - where I look, it looks. I know we're heading that way, but it sure seems like it's taking forever to get there. I want my iPad to be my TV when I want it to be my TV, and be my remote for my regular TV when I want that. All if this is coming - some of it's already here - but I actually look forward to the day when my "digital life" just goes everywhere with me.

Likewise, I don't fear terrorists, because they are no threat to me. Like Frem points out, if you don't want to be a victim, don't put out the victim vibe. I'm alert, vigilant, prepared, and seldom surprised by things going on around me. I worry about being struck by lightning more than I will ever fear being attacked my Muslim extremists, and I have never once in my life been worried about being struck by lightning. I don't fear roving drug cartels, or flashmobs of black criminals, despite having lived quite a number of years in "the 'Hood" among drug dealers and minorities. (I actually had a "Hood name" because I was known in the area, and I was given a modicum of respect because I treated pretty much everyone with a level of respect. They called me "Birdman"; I asked one of the guys one day why, and he said it was because I was "a big Larry Bird-lookin' muthafuckah" - meaning I was big, tall, and white. So Birdman I was... )

People tend to fear what they don't know. I pretty much figure if I don't know it, I can't really be afraid of it.

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Monday, October 31, 2011 12:32 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Hello,

I spent some hours studying after reading the original poster's article excerpt. I was curious about earmarks, and wondered why Ron Paul would have earmarked funds. (Spending government money seems to be against his philosophy.)

I learned two interesting things.

1) Ron Paul voted against the bills that included the earmarks. So, in essence, he voted against his own fund requests.

2) Ron Paul believes that all funds in appropriations bills should be earmarked. Every penny. Note that the earmarking allocates the voted-for funds to go to specific projects. He does not trust the administration to use the funds wisely, so he thinks congressmen should earmark all funds possible to ensure that the money is spent according to their constituents' best interests.

So it seems his earmark philosophy is as follows:

1) Don't spend this money. (He votes against the appropriations bill.)

2) Very well, if you're gonna spend this money, you're gonna spend it on this stuff that I think my people need/want. I don't trust you to spend it your way.

I can't say I fault his reasoning, which seems rather clever.

--Anthony


_______________________________________________

"In every war, the state enacts a tax of freedom upon the citizenry. The unspoken promise is that the tax shall be revoked at war's end. Endless war holds no such promise. Hence, Eternal War is Eternal Slavery." --Admiral Robert J. Henner


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Monday, October 31, 2011 12:42 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


http://www.ronpaul.com/2009-03-11/ron-paul-on-earmarks/

Hello,

Here is a speech Ron Paul gave in 2009 about Earmarks and his Earmarking philosophy. He is very up-front about his position on this. The original poster's excerpted article makes it sound like earmarking is Ron Paul's dirty little secret. Apparently, earmarking is his strong belief.

--Anthony


_______________________________________________

"In every war, the state enacts a tax of freedom upon the citizenry. The unspoken promise is that the tax shall be revoked at war's end. Endless war holds no such promise. Hence, Eternal War is Eternal Slavery." --Admiral Robert J. Henner


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Monday, October 31, 2011 2:59 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


The reason why RP has zero chanced to win the REPUBLICAN primary is bc he would so threaten TPTB that he would be discredited or killed before he even came close. That is the same reason that he would never get anywhere as an Independent either.

As for the teabaggers..... they are so in line with TPTB that no one would ever think to even react to them.

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Monday, October 31, 2011 3:03 PM

M52NICKERSON

DALEK!


Quote:

Originally posted by SignyM:
The reason why RP has zero chanced to win the REPUBLICAN primary is bc he would so threaten TPTB that he would be discredited or killed before he even came close. That is the same reason that he would never get anywhere as an Independent either.

As for the teabaggers..... they are so in line with TPTB that no one would ever think to even react to them.



...and here I thought it was because he will just not get enough votes.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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Monday, October 31, 2011 3:29 PM

FREMDFIRMA



Votes are meaningless, Nick.

Look up the sad, sordid tale of Victor L Berger for a good example of what HAPPENS when the will of the people via the ballot box gets in the way of the plans of the existing establishment.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Victor_L._Berger

If they can IGNORE our vote, what's the point of us having one ?

It's a goddamn puppet show, is what it is.

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

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Monday, October 31, 2011 3:35 PM

M52NICKERSON

DALEK!


Quote:

Originally posted by Fremdfirma:

Votes are meaningless, Nick.

Look up the sad, sordid tale of Victor L Berger for a good example of what HAPPENS when the will of the people via the ballot box gets in the way of the plans of the existing establishment.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Victor_L._Berger

If they can IGNORE our vote, what's the point of us having one ?

It's a goddamn puppet show, is what it is.

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.



There is a rich history of voter fraud and the stealing of elections. That however is not the norm. Unless you can show how every election is fixed.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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Monday, October 31, 2011 4:20 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.



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Monday, October 31, 2011 5:51 PM

CANTTAKESKY


Quote:

Originally posted by m52nickerson:
There is a rich history of voter fraud and the stealing of elections. That however is not the norm. Unless you can show how every election is fixed.

They don't NEED to fix every election. They just need to fix the few elections that are not going the way they want.

The fact that they can and DO fix elections, and the possibility that they CAN fix any election they wish to, makes the whole exercise politically meaningless.



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Tuesday, November 1, 2011 2:19 AM

M52NICKERSON

DALEK!


Quote:

Originally posted by canttakesky:
They don't NEED to fix every election. They just need to fix the few elections that are not going the way they want.

The fact that they can and DO fix elections, and the possibility that they CAN fix any election they wish to, makes the whole exercise politically meaningless.



Becuase people have been able to steal a few does not mean they can fix any election they wish. There are far to many people that work at these elections and far to many election offices for that to work.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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Tuesday, November 1, 2011 2:58 AM

CANTTAKESKY


Quote:

Originally posted by m52nickerson:
Becuase people have been able to steal a few does not mean they can fix any election they wish. There are far to many people that work at these elections and far to many election offices for that to work.

There weren't a lot of people that worked at the elections they DID fix?

Please explain what special conditions existed in the elections that were fixed that aren't present in normal elections.



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Tuesday, November 1, 2011 3:48 AM

M52NICKERSON

DALEK!


Quote:

Originally posted by canttakesky:
There weren't a lot of people that worked at the elections they DID fix?

Please explain what special conditions existed in the elections that were fixed that aren't present in normal elections.



The ones that have been thought to be "stolen" such as the presidential election of 1876 and the 2000 where close elections. I mean very close. In that situation it becomes easier to fix. Onyl a small number of votes need be destroyed of changed, and in regards to the US president election only in a few states will change the election outcome.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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Tuesday, November 1, 2011 4:15 AM

BYTEMITE


I actually don't think Ron Paul will win either, but some of the arguments from the initial post are just plain ignorant.

Quote:

One of my facebook friends put it best when he said ”if Ron Paul had been president during World War 2, we would all be speaking German now”.


And his facebook friend is wrong! There was a little power at the time, you might have heard of it, it's called Russia? The Brits, French, and Americans faced only a tiny amount of the Nazi army, because the Nazis were throwing the rest at Russia and neglecting to realize that the Nazi soldiers needed things like food, sleep, fuel for their tanks, and warm weather gear in minus 40 temperatures.

Anyone who thinks the Nazis COULD have won, doesn't know history. At all.

Pet peeve.

Quote:

He then suckered his gullible followers telling them that the ”polls showed he could win” and send to him money. Then came the 2008 primaries. Out of the 50 states that were availible for Ron Paul to win, guess how many he won? ZERO. And that is spelled Z-E-R-O.


Suckered is not exactly fair, because plenty of other politicians who don't win do the same thing (Dennis Kuchinich anyone?). Or did John McCain "sucker" everyone who donated to his election last cycle just because he lost? It's hard to tell if anyone would play ball with RP, but his losing elections is not a matter of lacking political power, its more due to a rigged election system that marginalizes any non-mainstream not-preapproved candidates.

Quote:

but the fact that a decent sized voting group in your own party considers you one of their main foes is certainly not good news for your campaign.


Is Ron Paul MUSLIM? Argument makes no damn sense.

Quote:

But we are talking about legalizing hard drugs because Ron Paul says that the government is unconstitutionally sticking its nose in peoples business by not allowing it. I say once it becomes legal, who is going to cover the costs of the people that get addicted to it to go to rehab or treatment centers.


How will they get treatment? They pay for possible future treatment when they buy their drugs. Just like when alcoholics buy alcohol from the state liquor store. Moronic argument.

Quote:

If he were alive today, Ronald Reagan would strongly oppose him. Reagan believed in spending generously on our national defense and certainly had an interventionist foreign policy. And according to the Ron Paul playbook, that would make the greatest president of my era ”a neocon”.


First off, Ronald Reagan WAS a neocon. Second, this guy is not winning any points. Like at all.

Quote:

In 2008 Ron Paul ran in the Republican primary for president. He got 5% of the vote.


Because this is the measure of political success. Heaven knows it's not, you know, POLICY. Total red herring. Try comparing the policies Ron Paul supported as a congressman and their success rates to policies Reagan supported as president and THEIR success rates, and that would at least be RELEVANT.

Quote:

According to the highly respected anti immigation (sic) group NUMBERS USA


Highly respected anti-immigration group? By whose measure?

This person is extremely short-sighted in regards to the immigration issue and does not appear to understand the underlying causes.

Quote:

The Republicans destroyed the Democrats on November 3 due to the energy and votes of the tea party!!!!


And Ron Paul is not a member of the tea party, is that it? *face palm*

Quote:

U.S. Rep. Ron Paul (R-Texas) was one of only four House Republicans to break rank from the party and request earmarks despite a Republican Conference earmark moratorium.


Because states were bankrupt? EDIT: Ah, I see Anthony also went into this one.

Niki, what the heck are you doing quoting this dribble? I mean, you're agreeing with this tool without even considering your own political-ideological stances on the issues.


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Tuesday, November 1, 2011 4:50 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by m52nickerson:
Quote:

Originally posted by canttakesky:
They don't NEED to fix every election. They just need to fix the few elections that are not going the way they want.

The fact that they can and DO fix elections, and the possibility that they CAN fix any election they wish to, makes the whole exercise politically meaningless.



Becuase people have been able to steal a few does not mean they can fix any election they wish. There are far to many people that work at these elections and far to many election offices for that to work.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.




Here's the thing, though - you don't have to rig ALL the election offices, or ALL the voting machines; you only need to rig a few, in just the right key areas. A few votes in Florida that swing the wrong way, or a few machines unavailable in urban areas of Ohio, and you've managed to swing an entire national election.

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Tuesday, November 1, 2011 5:00 AM

M52NICKERSON

DALEK!


Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:

Here's the thing, though - you don't have to rig ALL the election offices, or ALL the voting machines; you only need to rig a few, in just the right key areas. A few votes in Florida that swing the wrong way, or a few machines unavailable in urban areas of Ohio, and you've managed to swing an entire national election.




Sure, but again only if the election in those states is going to be close.

That is also a good argument in doing away with the electoral system and going to a popular vote.


I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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Tuesday, November 1, 2011 5:57 AM

NEWOLDBROWNCOAT


Quote:

Originally posted by m52nickerson:

The ones that have been thought to be "stolen" such as the presidential election of 1876 and the 2000 where close elections.



I was going to ask for recent examples of fixed or stolen elections; Berger, mentioned above, was back in the First World War.

I had, mercifully, forgotten the great shame of 2000; and Bush vs Gore, where the non-political Supreme Court ruled on a party-line vote, that federal laws overruled state laws so that they could seat a candidate from a states rights party who could move to Pennsylvania Avenue and then use federal supremacy to beat up on local policies that he and his supporters didn't like.

Kinda like waking up from a Tim Burton style nightmare, and then immediately blanking it out because you don't want to remember.


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Tuesday, November 1, 2011 6:29 AM

BYTEMITE


Quote:

That is also a good argument in doing away with the electoral system and going to a popular vote.


YES. Yes it is.

And then the famous cases are only the ones we KNOW about; we don't know the spread, entrenchment, or the depth of the problem; and our candidates are basically selected for us before we get to vote on the choices presented to us. Candidates who may themselves only be selected because they can be controlled by blackmail or threat of scandal or simply bribed.

Quite a bit of opportunity to control an outcome, if someone were looking for it.

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Tuesday, November 1, 2011 6:35 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by m52nickerson:
Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:

Here's the thing, though - you don't have to rig ALL the election offices, or ALL the voting machines; you only need to rig a few, in just the right key areas. A few votes in Florida that swing the wrong way, or a few machines unavailable in urban areas of Ohio, and you've managed to swing an entire national election.




Sure, but again only if the election in those states is going to be close.



True - that's one big reason why so much attention is paid to the "swing states" every election - those one or two states where a win in one or two districts can sway the entire election.

Quote:

That is also a good argument in doing away with the electoral system and going to a popular vote.


It is, and that's probably something worth looking into.

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Tuesday, November 1, 2011 6:51 AM

PIRATENEWS

John Lee, conspiracy therapist at Hollywood award-winner History Channel-mocked SNL-spoofed PirateNew.org wooHOO!!!!!!



Congressman Dr Ron Paul MD, father of US Senator Dr Rand Paul MD, wins 82% landslide at GOP straw poll in Iowa
http://fireflyfans.net/mthread.asp?b=18&t=50083

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Tuesday, November 1, 2011 7:00 AM

M52NICKERSON

DALEK!


Quote:

Originally posted by piratenews:

Congressman Dr Ron Paul MD, father of US Senator Dr Rand Paul MD, wins 82% landslide at GOP straw poll in Iowa
http://fireflyfans.net/mthread.asp?b=18&t=50083



Congratulations, his rabid fans can stuff straw poll boxes!

PN I know you are already working a nice long barely coherent post on how he was cheated out of the primary win so let's no play!


I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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Wednesday, November 2, 2011 3:45 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

Becuase people have been able to steal a few does not mean they can fix any election they wish. There are far to many people that work at these elections and far to many election offices for that to work.
Alas, this is not the case.

The 2000 and 2004 elections were stolen.

In 2000, if you recall, the election results centered on Florida... butterfly ballots, hanging chads, and percentage of error. The Supreme Court stepped in and decided the election for us. However, a consortium of newspapers decided to do a full-state recount, and after many months posted the results... what would the results have been if a FULL statewide recount would have been done, counting dimples, counting one corner punched, two corners, three corners etc.

The results were that the hanging chad issue wouldn't have made any difference at all. HOWEVER, of the counties which had electronic voting... the wealthy counties, in which there was no question of the vote.... some would have swung to Gore, definitively, and would have changed the results of the vote.

This, I believe, was the GOP's practice run.

Oh, and BTW- this was AFTER the FLA state SECY Katherine Harris had already disqualified thousand of eligible voters.

------------

In 2004, six states showed significant pro-Bush discrepancies between the polling done after voting, and the results of the votes themselves. The six states had several things in common: They were battleground states, they all had electronic voting, and they all swung for Bush,

Independent university statisticians looked at this discrepancy, taking a number of historical factors into account: the accuracy of exit polls, the margin of error in voting, the fact that the "error" showed a universal bias (towards Bush) and so forth, and the result they came out with was the the results could ONLY be explained by FRAUD.
www.buzzflash.com/alerts/04/11/The_unexplained_exit_poll_discrepancy_v
00k.pdf


There are a whole number of technical ways this can be done, explained by Black Box Voting. www.blackboxvoting.com

IN fact, there was a person in the GOP working with Karl Rove (whose name I forget) who had both the technical skill and the expressed motivation to jigger the results, and he helped set up the voting in all six states.

In sum the vote machine and the vote counting machines are incredibly porous.

Anyway, just setting the record straight about incidents which ppl prefer to forget.

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Wednesday, November 2, 2011 4:18 AM

M52NICKERSON

DALEK!


Quote:

Originally posted by SignyM:
The results were that the hanging chad issue wouldn't have made any difference at all. HOWEVER, of the counties which had electronic voting... the wealthy counties, in which there was no question of the vote.... some would have swung to Gore, definitively, and would have changed the results of the vote.



Really, some should have swung to Gore. You know this how?

Quote:

Originally posted by SignyM:
In 2004, six states showed significant pro-Bush discrepancies between the polling done after voting, and the results of the votes themselves. The six states had several things in common: They were battleground states, they all had electronic voting, and they all swung for Bush,

Independent university statisticians looked at this discrepancy, taking a number of historical factors into account: the accuracy of exit polls, the margin of error in voting, the fact that the "error" showed a universal bias (towards Bush) and so forth, and the result they came out with was the the results could ONLY be explained by FRAUD.

There are a whole number of technical ways this can be done, explained by Black Box Voting. In sum the vote machine and the vote counting machines are incredibly porous.



You mean fraud or simply that voters voted for Bush more then expected. Stats are fine to make predictions, but are not themselfs evidence of wrong doing. Also a number of other statistician did not find any evidence that supported the alligations of fraud.

In the end Bush won both Florida and Ohio by 380,000 and 118,000 votes respectivly.

I do agree that there should be some type of paper trail for all votes.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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Wednesday, November 2, 2011 5:09 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


"In the end..."

Hello,

In the end, an election was decided in the courthouse instead of the polling place. The moment the courts ruled on the issue, the actual ballots themselves became pointless. I hated that election cycle because the moment the courts made a decision on the issue, nobody's votes mattered.

As for the electronic voting machines, it has been proven that it was startlingly simple to hack the things and create desired votes. It is not known if this was actually done, but the easy-peasy capability is enough to make someone like me very uncomfortable.

--Anthony

_______________________________________________

"In every war, the state enacts a tax of freedom upon the citizenry. The unspoken promise is that the tax shall be revoked at war's end. Endless war holds no such promise. Hence, Eternal War is Eternal Slavery." --Admiral Robert J. Henner


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Wednesday, November 2, 2011 4:47 PM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht


I could never vote for Ron Paul because he is opposed to any government money going towards social programs/services. I can't condone that so no votes from me.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

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Thursday, November 3, 2011 3:48 AM

M52NICKERSON

DALEK!


Quote:

Originally posted by AnthonyT:
In the end, an election was decided in the courthouse instead of the polling place. The moment the courts ruled on the issue, the actual ballots themselves became pointless. I hated that election cycle because the moment the courts made a decision on the issue, nobody's votes mattered. --Anthony



I was talking about the 2004 election not the 2000 election.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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