Immigration and CPS by canttakesky

No takers? I'm just being paranoid?

Did all those kids get reunited? Were they adopted?

Speaking of adoption, should it be suspicious that US CPS would refuse to reunite Mexican children with Mexican parents, and put said Mexican children up for adoption? As if we don't have enough American orphans to adopt? What kind of person would adopt an illegal immigrant child whose parents are still alive and want them?

Maybe Frem can set me straight. But this just smells to me like there is human trafficking somewhere. And if there isn't already, there will be.

ETA: Same story as the previous link, but more readable.

http://colorlines.com/archives/2011/11/thousands_of_kids_lost_in_foste
r_homes_after_parents_deportation.html

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Never be deceived that the rich will allow you to vote away their wealth. -- Lucy Parsons (1853-1942, labor activist and anarcho-communist)

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Sunday, November 6, 2011 5:02 AM

http://www.theworld.org/2011/10/illegal-immigrant-detention-facilities
-ice-abuse/

While we're at it, why don't we look at 365,000 people with no rights locked up in American concentration camps, I mean, detention centers.

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Never be deceived that the rich will allow you to vote away their wealth. -- Lucy Parsons (1853-1942, labor activist and anarcho-communist)

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Monday, November 7, 2011 5:17 AM

FREMDFIRMA

Quote:
Originally posted by canttakesky:
Maybe Frem can set me straight. But this just smells to me like there is human trafficking somewhere. And if there isn't already, there will be.

Oh there is, and a lotta them kids, they just flat out dissappear - sure some take a header, but a lot of them are a little too young for that to be credible.

Problem is - as you have no doubt noticed, no one else much gives a shit.

No doubt addressing this and many other issues within the Foster Care and Public Education systems is going to be as large and impossible a job as putting paid to WWASPS, but having participated in that miracle, it's not hard to believe it can be done again - if not by me then those who come after.

But first is getting folks to notice or care, and good luck with that one, at the beginning.

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

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Monday, November 7, 2011 5:36 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
Problem is - as you have no doubt noticed, no one else much gives a shit.

That was the problem with the Rwandan genocide too.

And what is going on with Libya right now.

As long as we get to watch Avengers on opening day, life is good right?

I'm crying on the inside.

-----
Never be deceived that the rich will allow you to vote away their wealth. -- Lucy Parsons (1853-1942, labor activist and anarcho-communist)

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Monday, November 7, 2011 6:06 AM

FREMDFIRMA

Look on the bright side - at least in this case folk are at LEAST willing to acknowledge the *existence* of the problem!

Back when I started fighting the hellcamps, the social concept of it was "no such thing" and "urban legend", to even mention it was to be relegated to the same grade of credibility given PN here.

To even force a mere acknowledgement of their existence was a herculean effort, and for a fact you can still find plenty of people willing to deny they ever existed.

So you have:
A: Public acknowledgement of the issue.
B: At least one organized group already on it.
C: The interest of several others who have experience in tackling stuff like this now.

So it's not as bad a starting point as that, and could potentially shave decades off time-to-solution.

Not that it makes the problem any less ugly, but having something to start with besides one rejected kid with a grudge is a hell of a lot better beginning than I got, yes ?

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

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Monday, November 7, 2011 6:51 AM

Keep the Shiny side up

Quote:
Originally posted by canttakesky:
http://www.theworld.org/2011/10/illegal-immigrant-detention-facilities
-ice-abuse/

While we're at it, why don't we look at 365,000 people with no rights locked up in American concentration camps, I mean, detention centers.

And folks with a different point of view will say, "Look what happens when we don't detain them."

Quote:
Illegal immigrant convicted of murdering nun

An illegal immigrant who had been waiting nearly two years for a deportation hearing when he drunkenly crashed into a car carrying three Catholic nuns was convicted Monday of felony murder.

Prince William County Circuit Court Judge Lon Farris found 24-year-old Carlos A. Martinelly Montano guilty in the Aug. 1, 2010, crash that left Sister Denise Mosier, 66, dead and two other nuns badly injured.

The crash sparked outcry over the Department of Homeland Security's deportation proceedings. Martinelly Montano, who was smuggled to the United States from Bolivia as a child and had two previous drunken driving convictions, had been detained by Immigrations and Customs Enforcement -- but was released pending a long-delayed deportation hearing.

http://washingtonexaminer.com/local/crime-punishment/2011/10/illegal-i
mmigrant-convicted-murdering-nun#ixzz1d2TLr8w3

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Monday, November 7, 2011 9:14 AM

I suspect that even the U.S. citizen kids are being deported or detained along with their parents. It's not like the people managing those cases would give a rat's ass whether the kids are citizens or not, and the general assumption is both the parents and the kids are lying.

And as for adoptions, I don't particularly think there's a huge influx of white suburbanites who want latino children, though I notice they're just fine adopting 'em from asia.

Just callin' like I sees it.

EDIT: I didn't keep reading and missed the human trafficking. Good point. I do know there's actually slave labour latino sweatshops in Florida.

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Monday, November 7, 2011 9:20 AM

Geezer, that news article is pretty loaded.

Perhaps in more ways than one.

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Monday, November 7, 2011 9:39 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Geezer:
And folks with a different point of view will say, "Look what happens when we don't detain them."

First of all, look in ANY population of 365,000 people, and you'll find a drunk who's killed someone. Does preventing this one tragedy justify the senseless detention of hundreds of thousands of others who have done and will do nothing wrong?

Secondly, there are other more humane options besides detention centers for tackling the illegal immigration problem.

For example, surely we can save money if we deport them IMMEDIATELY instead of have them tortured and neglected in prison for 11 months before deporting them? Give them a special visa for coming back for the hearing to see if they can stay or not. Deportation, rather than detention, as default.

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Never be deceived that the rich will allow you to vote away their wealth. -- Lucy Parsons (1853-1942, labor activist and anarcho-communist)

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Monday, November 7, 2011 9:42 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
And as for adoptions, I don't particularly think there's a huge influx of white suburbanites who want latino children, though I notice they're just fine adopting 'em from asia.

No, there isn't.

So why would CPS put these Mexican children up for adoption INSTEAD of returning them to their parents in Mexico?

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Never be deceived that the rich will allow you to vote away their wealth. -- Lucy Parsons (1853-1942, labor activist and anarcho-communist)

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Monday, November 7, 2011 9:47 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
Not that it makes the problem any less ugly, but having something to start with besides one rejected kid with a grudge is a hell of a lot better beginning than I got, yes ?

Yes.

I wouldn't have pegged you as a "glass is half full" kind of guy though.

Truth is, I don't think I handle news very well. I should have stayed on my news boycott, cause it seems I just find all the bad stuff.

-----
Never be deceived that the rich will allow you to vote away their wealth. -- Lucy Parsons (1853-1942, labor activist and anarcho-communist)

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Monday, November 7, 2011 11:56 AM

Keep the Shiny side up

Quote:
Originally posted by canttakesky:
First of all, look in ANY population of 365,000 people, and you'll find a drunk who's killed someone. Does preventing this one tragedy justify the senseless detention of hundreds of thousands of others who have done and will do nothing wrong?

Yep. and you'll probably find someone who's wanted for kiting checks as well. And the person arrested for kiting checks may be abused in jail, illegal immigrant or not. Should we turn all prisoners free, because some abuse occurs, or work harder to end the abuse?

Per the Obama administration, deportation is now focused on illegal immigrants who commit crimes in the U.S., so I'd guess most of the detained would be in jail anyway. This may also be a reason that in some cases their kids aren't deported with them, since they are considered unfit parents due to crimes like rape or child abuse.

Quote:
For example, surely we can save money if we deport them IMMEDIATELY instead of have them tortured and neglected in prison for 11 months before deporting them? Give them a special visa for coming back for the hearing to see if they can stay or not. Deportation, rather than detention, as default.

Not that easy. Many counties are already kicking about the criminals we return to their homes after their sentences in the U.S. are completed. Do you think those countries are going to want to be responsible for these folks while they're awaiting trial, and then have to be able to produce them when the trial date approaches?

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Monday, November 7, 2011 12:05 PM

Quote:
Per the Obama administration, deportation is now focused on illegal immigrants who commit crimes in the U.S., so I'd guess most of the detained would be in jail anyway.

Because being detained by law is proof of heinous criminal activity, and of possibly being an unacceptable parent. I'm sure the crimes of those 800,000 or so parents with their 800,000 or so kids are rape, child molestation, murder, and drug smuggling, and not, say, being an illegal immigrant.

Which is, itself, a crime.

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Monday, November 7, 2011 4:59 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Geezer:
Yep. and you'll probably find someone who's wanted for kiting checks as well. And the person arrested for kiting checks may be abused in jail, illegal immigrant or not. Should we turn all prisoners free, because some abuse occurs, or work harder to end the abuse?

Am I arguing to turn all criminals free? No. (So, you know, strawman.) Most of those people have not committed any other crime besides live in this country illegally. Prosecute the criminals (and end their abuse in prison). Let the others go home if they are not wanted here.

It ain't rocket science.

Quote:
This may also be a reason that in some cases their kids aren't deported with them, since they are considered unfit parents due to crimes like rape or child abuse.

If that were the case, I wouldn't be as concerned. But that's not the case.

If you read the report, most of the kids are taken away simply because they are illegals. Period. No evidence of crime. No evidence of abuse.

Quote:
Do you think those countries are going to want to be responsible for these folks while they're awaiting trial, and then have to be able to produce them when the trial date approaches?

There you go again, on and on about criminals.

They are NOT criminals. They are innocent people who should get to go home if they are not wanted in our country. If they believe they have a valid reason to stay in the USA (ie should not be deported), they should get a special visa to come back to argue their case before an immigration judge.

Example. My mother was a legal immigrant to the USA. But as an old woman, she was easy prey, got robbed, and lost her green card. So for a few years afterwards, she walked around without a green card, cause she couldn't afford the $370 needed to replace her card. Federal immigration law requires she carry her card with her at all times, so by not replacing her robbed green card she was breaking federal law.

Let's say she gets stopped by a cop while walking for whatever reason. They find out she was breaking fed law by not having a green card on her. They send her to a detention center until she can sort it out before a judge. Let's say she has to stew there for 10 months before she gets out again.

I say, why not simply deport her, let her wait 10 months in her country of origin, and give her a special visa to come back to argue her case if she wants to. If not, she stays home. Simple as that.

Please note that though she has broken the law, she is not a criminal. You should know that breaking immigration law is not the same as committing a real crime.

And if you can't make that distinction, it's just...sad.

(BTW, after these detention camps became popular, I became very anxious that she would get sent there. I forced her to make the choice to go home, so that is a non-issue.)

-----
Never be deceived that the rich will allow you to vote away their wealth. -- Lucy Parsons (1853-1942, labor activist and anarcho-communist)

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Monday, November 7, 2011 5:31 PM

Keep the Shiny side up

Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
Because being detained by law is proof of heinous criminal activity, and of possibly being an unacceptable parent. I'm sure the crimes of those 800,000 or so parents with their 800,000 or so kids are rape, child molestation, murder, and drug smuggling, and not, say, being an illegal immigrant.

Which is, itself, a crime.

Take off the blinders and actually read what's being written.

Per Pres. Obama, the folks ICE is concentrating on for deportation are folks who have committed crimes (other than illegal immigration) in the U.S. They are deported after they have been convicted of those crimes and served their sentences.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Monday, November 7, 2011 5:39 PM

Keep the Shiny side up

Quote:
Originally posted by canttakesky:
Am I arguing to turn all criminals free? No. (So, you know, strawman.) Most of those people have not committed any other crime besides live in this country illegally. Prosecute the criminals (and end their abuse in prison). Let the others go home if they are not wanted here.

And again. Per Pres. Obama, most of the folks being detained are either charged with or convicted of crimes other than illegal immigration, and are deported after finishing ther sentences.

Quote:
If that were the case, I wouldn't be as concerned. But that's not the case.

If you read the report, most of the kids are taken away simply because they are illegals. Period. No evidence of crime. No evidence of abuse.

Proof?

Quote:
They are NOT criminals. They are innocent people who should get to go home if they are not wanted in our country. If they believe they have a valid reason to stay in the USA (ie should not be deported), they should get a special visa to come back to argue their case before an immigration judge.

Third time. Pres. Obama says that the most of the folks being deported have been convicted of crimes in the U.S. (other than immigration violations) and are being deported after their sentences are completed.

Quote:
Example. My mother was a legal immigrant to the USA. But as an old woman, she was easy prey, got robbed, and lost her green card. So for a few years afterwards, she walked around without a green card, cause she couldn't afford the $370 needed to replace her card. Federal immigration law requires she carry her card with her at all times, so by not replacing her robbed green card she was breaking federal law.

Let's say she gets stopped by a cop while walking for whatever reason. They find out she was breaking fed law by not having a green card on her. They send her to a detention center until she can sort it out before a judge. Let's say she has to stew there for 10 months before she gets out again.

I say, why not simply deport her, let her wait 10 months in her country of origin, and give her a special visa to come back to argue her case if she wants to. If not, she stays home. Simple as that.

Per current rules, as stated by PRESIDENT OBAMA, she wouldn't be deported unless she had committed some crime other than immigration violation.

Jeez. Go make a mountain out of some other molehill.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Monday, November 7, 2011 6:20 PM

Oh, I got that point. But the numbers don't work out to support it. I find it hard to believe there are over 800,000 illegal immigrant drug smugglers in the US right now - who have CHILDREN here too.

It doesn't fit drug dealer demographics.

At some point you have to consider 1) the justification for the charges, and 2) the quality of legal council offered to non-English speakers.

My understanding is it's not just poor legal council, but it's also often corrupt. I know an immigration lawyer here who's become a little infamous for running scams on his clients.

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Monday, November 7, 2011 7:42 PM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht

It would make more sense to send the kids back to the parents' country with them so the family is kept together. When the kids are grown or at least older they can come back whenever they want. Or the parents could choose to leave the citizen kids here with other relatives? That's a tough issue and I don't think any of the answers are easy ones. But forcing the kids to stay here in foster care while sending the parents back home doesn't really seem fair, maybe the parents could have more say in whether the kids stay here or leave with them?

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

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Tuesday, November 8, 2011 10:18 AM

FREMDFIRMA

Quote:
Originally posted by canttakesky:
I wouldn't have pegged you as a "glass is half full" kind of guy though.

*laughs*
Most people don't - only one who's ever noticed right up front is prolly HKCavalier, cause while I bitch and fuss and plot all amount of carnage on bad actors, here's the key...

The fact that I firmly, absolutely and without a shred of doubt, believe that solutions to these problems are POSSIBLE, and am willing to go the distance in order to bring them to fruition even if it requires investment of time, resources or effort most folk cannot conceive of cause they're too short sighted to work on solutions which may not even occur in their own lifetime.

That's not, by any means, a pessimistic reaction - I just LOOK at it from the worst-case scenario on down, and shortcut the process in any fashion possible, is all.

Just cause my optimism is more of the boot-to-ass variety than happy-fluffy-pollyanna doesn't mean it ain't there.

-Frem
I do not serve the Blind God.

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Wednesday, November 9, 2011 11:55 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Geezer:
Per Pres. Obama, most of the folks being detained are either charged with or convicted of crimes other than illegal immigration, and are deported after finishing ther sentences.

You keep repeating it like a broken record.

In your own words, "proof"?

I'd like to see if what he said is actually true (cause you know, it won't be the first time he lied or that he was blissfully ignored).

Quote:

Proof?

Read the report linked in the first post, for God's sake.

But here are more in case you actually would bother to click on a link posted.

Quote:
http://trac.syr.edu/immigration/reports/224/

FY 2005 – FY 2009 ICE practices. Over the last five years while the total detainee population grew by 64 percent and Congress was steadily increasing the funding for more and more detention beds, the composition of those who were being detained underwent rapid change. Instead of giving priority to the detention and removal of aliens convicted of crimes, the agency seemingly focused on filling detention beds. Thus, the rapid rise in the number of individuals in detention occurred largely in the numbers of non-citizens who had no criminal record. As shown in Figure 2, detainees without any criminal conviction doubled between Fiscal 2005 and FY 2009, while the number of criminal detainees barely changed.

So here is the thing to keep in mind. There is CRIME and there is crime. A lot of these people are detained for traffic infractions or questionable charges (such as self-defense). But because they are illegals, they have no rights afforded Americans in the same situations. Just remember it is easy to charge people of whatever crime you wish, to justify detention, if those people have no legal rights.

You can believe there are 765,000 murderers, rapists, and robbers, all of whom happen to be illegal, if you wish. Or you can open your xenophobic eyes and see that these are 765,000 accused "criminals" who are not even 2nd class citizens, with very little ability to contest those charges.

Quote:
Per current rules, as stated by PRESIDENT OBAMA, she wouldn't be deported unless she had committed some crime other than immigration violation.

OK, my example was about how she would be DETAINED for breaking federal immigration law. And you say she wouldn't be DEPORTED. Doesn't address my point does it?

And again, just because PRESIDENT OBAMA says something, it doesn't make it true. He said we were supposed to close Guantanamo Bay, didn't he?

-----
Never be deceived that the rich will allow you to vote away their wealth. -- Lucy Parsons (1853-1942, labor activist and anarcho-communist)

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Wednesday, November 9, 2011 11:58 AM