OWS is bigger than it thinks it is by AnthonyT

REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

OWS is bigger than it thinks it is

POSTED BY: ANTHONYT
UPDATED: Sunday, November 20, 2011 09:31
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Friday, November 18, 2011 8:56 AM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Hello,

I was in another thread discussing the way that the Occupy Wall Street movement has spread around the world and resonated with humans everywhere. But then I began to think, and I came to the conclusion that Occupy Wall Street is actually just an outgrowth of the 'Arab Spring.' The theme here isn't just people unhappy with the economy or people unhappy with corporations or even banks. The theme is people in general, all around the world, standing up and saying they aren't happy with the status quo.

Thus, the biggest protest movement in recent memory actually had its rise in non-democratic middle-eastern nations, and spread like a blaze to capture the imagination of Europe and America. If this fire continues, the year 2011 may be seen as the start of something remarkable in the history of mankind.

On the other hand, I don't think things can persist this way for long. Eventually, someone in power is going to put their foot down. Then the knives will come out, and the revolution won't be on television. It will be on our front lawns.

I wonder if things will progress to that point, or whether the passion of this moment will fade away and people will forget what they were unhappy about.

--Anthony

_______________________________________________

"In every war, the state enacts a tax of freedom upon the citizenry. The unspoken promise is that the tax shall be revoked at war's end. Endless war holds no such promise. Hence, Eternal War is Eternal Slavery." --Admiral Robert J. Henner

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Friday, November 18, 2011 9:27 AM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

I have been thinking the same thoughts and puzzling the same puzzles.

The problem I see is that in general the more organized and focused structures tend to overwhelm the amorphous and organic. Hence the early Christian gnostics faded quickly from the scene to be overwhelmed (and actively suppressed) by a hierarchical church power structure, for example.

Egypt is now under military rule, and politically the Muslim Brotherhood is better organized and more active (and effective) than any amount of disorganized secular protest. The end of this particular story is yet to be written, but as you say, the knives have come out.

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Friday, November 18, 2011 9:54 AM

STORYMARK

One could argue that even before the Arab Spring, that the current wave of popular discontent started with the Tea Parties. Ideological differences aside, that was also a group of people upset with the status quo (even if it's a different quo they're looking to change the status of).

"Goram it kid, let's frak this thing and go home! Engage!"

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Friday, November 18, 2011 10:30 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Hello,

This is an astute observation. The father may disown the children, but there is a connection in the idea of humans rising up to oppose that with which they do not agree. I myself share as many sentiments with the 2007 era Tea Party as I do with the Occupy movement of today. And key differences, too. (Which sadly brought me into conflict with both groups.)

--Anthony

_______________________________________________

"In every war, the state enacts a tax of freedom upon the citizenry. The unspoken promise is that the tax shall be revoked at war's end. Endless war holds no such promise. Hence, Eternal War is Eternal Slavery." --Admiral Robert J. Henner

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Friday, November 18, 2011 10:32 AM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

When I think of humans standing up for justice against powerful groups, I wilt.

But then, I think of this:

"The (Mothers of the Plaza de Mayo) association was formed by women who had met each other in the course of trying to find their missing sons and daughters, who were abducted by agents of the Argentine government during the years known as the Dirty War (1976–1983), many of whom were then tortured and killed. The 14 founders of the association ... started the demonstrations on the Plaza de Mayo, in front of the Casa Rosada presidential palace, on 30 April 1977. Villaflor had been searching for one of her sons and her daughter-in-law for six months. She was taken to the ESMA concentration camp on 8 December 1978."

They changed the course of history. People can move the world.

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Friday, November 18, 2011 10:45 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Story, I would agree that the Tea Party predated the Arab Spring, but I don't think they are connected as much as OWS is connected to the Arab Spring. Just my opinion.

The Tea Party was either started or quickly co-opted by monied interests, so they are accepted by the mainstream (media and population). Unfortunately the results were not what was promised and what people hoped to get from them (like, jobs?). OWS IS grass roots at this time, and I'm hoping we can resist being co-opted. You never know. If we get co-opted by some special interest(s), I will certainly drop out.

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Friday, November 18, 2011 11:05 AM

HKCAVALIER

Hey Anthony,

I think it's even bigger than that. This is all the work of social networking and the internet. It's about the flow of information. Information control is the fundamental task of totalitarianism and that gets harder and harder everyday.

I would say that anyone in the world who votes against his or her own interests, advocates against his or her own interest, is really supporting a hostile regime and therefore a victim of totalitarianism, even if the regime in question be no larger than his or her own family or political party. With universal access to the internet, these systems cannot help but break down more and more, until totalitarianism is reduced to it's natural state, an individual mental disorder, likely the result of some form of PTSD. This process may take another 100 years to complete, but it's happening and there's no going back. The generation being born today will grow up in a world with a perminent social network that spans the globe.

Surely, totalitarianism will fight, and viciously, its hierarchy and organization will show some success against the inchoate social networks of the emerging world culture, but totalitarianism won't be able to hold back the tide indefinitely.

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

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Friday, November 18, 2011 11:11 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Hello,

The Tea Party was not jobs focused when it started. Initially (~2006-07) it was pretty much a Ron Paul campaign support organization that sought to forward his ideals. One of the things I liked about it was that it considered spreading his message more important than actually getting him elected. The Tea Party was focused on fiscal responsibility in government, including a reduction in taxes and government spending. However, very prominent elements of the Tea Party platform vanished once it grew apart from Ron Paul and was co-opted by the GOP. One of the disturbing and telling changes was the sudden de-emphasis on military spending.

When I joined the Tea Party, some of the premier talking points were ending the wars, drastically reducing military expenditures, and turning away from foreign adventurism.

The GOP infiltration was apparent once these talking points were buried. The GOP enjoys maintaining a robust war machine, so the idea of cutting military expenditures by half or more was something they needed to navigate the Tea Party away from- quickly.

One of the remarkable things about the early Tea Party is that you had a lot of people involved who are now targeted for derision. This included the Anti-war 'hippie' types who realized that the Tea Party as initially described could lead to a great reduction in America's involvement in war. The Tea Party, as it once existed, contained a unique platform where Liberals and open-minded (my evaluation) Conservatives could agree on something: A reduction of government spending in an area that was not productive. Specifically- War.

However, with the entry of the GOP and a sudden de-emphasis on reductions in military spending, the common ground was lost. The Liberal members fell away, and the party adopted a much harder Right Wing stance that was no longer inviting to people on the Left. In fact, many of the original members of the party would be poorly regarded by its current membership.

Naturally, this degradation of the Tea Party inspires sadness in me, because while they have become an active agent of change, they are no longer working towards what I consider to be the best changes, and they have surrendered the central theme of the original Ron Paul Revolution that inspired the Tea Party to begin with.

They have abandoned the concept of LOVE.

--Anthony

_______________________________________________

"In every war, the state enacts a tax of freedom upon the citizenry. The unspoken promise is that the tax shall be revoked at war's end. Endless war holds no such promise. Hence, Eternal War is Eternal Slavery." --Admiral Robert J. Henner

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Friday, November 18, 2011 11:13 AM

STORYMARK

Quote:
Originally posted by Niki2:
Story, I would agree that the Tea Party predated the Arab Spring, but I don't think they are connected as much as OWS is connected to the Arab Spring. Just my opinion.

The Tea Party was either started or quickly co-opted by monied interests, so they are accepted by the mainstream (media and population). Unfortunately the results were not what was promised and what people hoped to get from them (like, jobs?).

The co-opting came along later, though. And the results, as much as I dislike them, are irrelevant to the point Im making.

It still started as citizens fed up with the way things are done. I see a direct parallel. I think it's a bit partisan to deliberately downplay such an obvious connection.

We should be looking for commonality to bring people together anayway, not going "Oh, not THOSE guys.... they weren't angry in the same way".

"Goram it kid, let's frak this thing and go home! Engage!"

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Friday, November 18, 2011 11:21 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

I'm sorry Anthony, I was referring to TODAY's Tea Party politicians, not the original (whenever I mention Tea Party, I'm not thinking of the original unless I say so; to me they are dead and have been replaced by the "machine" now running what's called the "Tea Party"). I have a lot of respect for what the real Tea Party was originally and never mean to demean that.

The "jobs" thing was a useful tool to get into office by today's tea party politicians; they understood people were frightened by the current situation, so promising both more jobs and making the government the "enemy" got them elected. After which, they have proceeded with what I believe is their true agenda: legislating what THEY want insofar as social issues, breaking up unions and making government workers the enemy, increasing the wealth of the wealthy, making it more difficult for those who might vote Democrat to vote at all, and getting rid of as many regulations as possible. Thus far, they're doing pretty well. My only hope is that OWS is able to at least stem the tide; I'm not so optimistic as to think we can reverse it.

Cav may have a point; lord knows I won't be around to see it if he's right, unless it happens a LOT faster than changes in society usually do, but I hope I'm seeing and participating in a start, at least. We have a very, very tough row to hoe, given we've seen the result of the Tea Party and are worried it could happen to us, but NOT going the way society wants these things to go (rallies and voting) means there is a lot of bad times ahead for us...but since we're already IN the bad times for everyone but the 1%, maybe it's worth it.

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Friday, November 18, 2011 11:28 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Story, I don't think I said what you characterized me as saying. My point was that neither original or current Tea Party has been a global thing, and given how far removed by both society and distance the Middle East is, in MY OPINION the Arab Spring wasn't all that affected by it. I see OWS as being affected by the Arab Spring more, that's all. Personally, I happen to think that OWS and the ACTUAL PEOPLE of the Tea Party have a lot more in common than either realizes, but given they're on opposing sides of the political scale, they'll most likely never work together.

However, one of the middle-aged gentlemen in our group shows up at every demonstration, and the only sign he ever carries, and he always carries it, reads "The Tea Party belongs ere too". I agree; if we could ever work together, we might have accomplished something, for all our differences. Unfortunately they've been completely co-opted now, as I see it, and are too locked into their right-wing base, AND we're being made to appear in such a negative fashion that I imagine most of them would be aghast to think we have ANYTING in common. Which is a shame.

I also don't think their way of trying to change things had any positive effect, but only because they were brainwashed by the faction that co-opted them in the first place. IF the original Tea Party were still around, OR the later Tea Party had held fast to their original principles and not been bought out by right-wing special interests, we might well have worked together on at least some things.

In essence, I think you might have viewed what I said through the veil of your opinion of me as ultra-partisan, because it wasn't what I was saying at all.

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Friday, November 18, 2011 11:29 AM

HERO

Quote:
Originally posted by Storymark:
We should be looking for commonality to bring people together anayway, not going "Oh, not THOSE guys.... they weren't angry in the same way".

Why not? There was a huge difference between John Brown and Pierre Beauregard yet both committed similar acts.

It does not matter what people have in common if the differences are too extreme. The "Gimmie Money, Don't Wanna Work" crowd on Wall Street can't be joined with the "Don't take my money, spend less" folks who drink tea.

In the end if this blows up then it shakes out in one of three ways. If the Tea Party wins we get a George Washington. If the Wall Streeters win we get a Napoleon. If neither win we get a Hilter or a Stalin.

H

"Hero. I have come to respect you." "I am forced to agree with Hero here."- Chrisisall, 2009.
"I agree with Hero." Niki2, 2011.

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Friday, November 18, 2011 11:52 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important

"The "Gimmie Money, Don't Wanna Work" crowd on Wall Street"

Hello,

I feel that 'Gimmie Money, Don't Wanna Work' seriously misrepresents the OWS movement in general. I think that the OWS group (those that don't already have jobs) would like very much to have jobs. I think those that have jobs probably want to ensure that they have jobs that can adequately sustain them. I think they are upset at the conduct of various banks, investment institutions, insurance companies, and corporations. I have yet to notice the sign that reads, "I WANT TO GET EVERYTHING AND GIVE NOTHING."

The last poll I read said that a third of the respondents had positive views of the OWS movement. While it may be tempting to proclaim a third of the population as bums in order to denigrate a movement you don't support, it would be misguided to do so.

"can't be joined with the "Don't take my money, spend less" folks"

Oh, they could be. As was done before, I suspect many people on both sides would stand together on the topic of reducing military expenditure. I suspect people on both sides are interested in auditing the Fed and improving the way our nation's money is created, handled, and distributed. I suspect people on both sides think that government should not be bailing out corporations. I suspect people on both sides would like to end the costly and unproductive War on Drugs. It's not hard to find common ground, but there are people with an active interest in preventing that from happening.

--Anthony

_______________________________________________

"In every war, the state enacts a tax of freedom upon the citizenry. The unspoken promise is that the tax shall be revoked at war's end. Endless war holds no such promise. Hence, Eternal War is Eternal Slavery." --Admiral Robert J. Henner

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Friday, November 18, 2011 12:10 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

"... with the entry of the GOP ..."

Don't forget "BIG MONEY" like the Koch brothers and others who have specifically funded politicians to grind working people down through state laws, and to reverse Roe v Wade, under the Tea Party banner.

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Friday, November 18, 2011 12:18 PM

CANTTAKESKY

Quote:
Originally posted by Storymark:
It still started as citizens fed up with the way things are done. I see a direct parallel. I think it's a bit partisan to deliberately downplay such an obvious connection.

We should be looking for commonality to bring people together anayway, not going "Oh, not THOSE guys.... they weren't angry in the same way".

Beautifully said.

(Yes, sometimes I have nothing to contribute except to press the "like" button.)

-----
Never be deceived that the rich will allow you to vote away their wealth. -- Lucy Parsons (1853-1942, labor activist and anarcho-communist)

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Friday, November 18, 2011 12:45 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

BTW, what I look at most is their faces, their body language, their isolation. They are alone. They are scared. They are hanging on to each other for courage, for some small comfort. But they are there. And though it's a time long gone, I still say BRAVA to them, and salute them.

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Saturday, November 19, 2011 2:30 AM

FREMDFIRMA

Quote:
Originally posted by HKCavalier:
With universal access to the internet, these systems cannot help but break down more and more, until totalitarianism is reduced to it's natural state, an individual mental disorder, likely the result of some form of PTSD. This process may take another 100 years to complete, but it's happening and there's no going back.

As I have said many a time, they're doomed already, they just don't know it yet - but yeah verily, only a matter of time, although I do try to speed the process up in my own way, cause it'd be nice to happen BEFORE they go berserk and wreck everything - that's my biggest concern, right before the end for them when they have that "If we can't have it, no one will!!!" moment...

And if you even for a moment think that some of these bastards in power ain't crazy enough to blow this country into a radioactive wasteland in a fit of pique, you haven't been paying ATTENTION.
Stopping THAT will be priority-one once things move along a little more, but aiding me in that is the simple fact that in the end they will hand us everything we need to beat them on a silver plate without realizing it.

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

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Sunday, November 20, 2011 9:31 AM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht

IMO Anthony's originating post was overly sappy. I can't fault him too much though because we all have overly sappy moments, myself included, just about different things. I had to laugh at the "aArab Spring" reference because its one of those buzz words that gets bandied about, a friend of mine who's really involved in OWS said when it first started "This is our Arab Spring!!!!!!" and for some reason I wanted to laugh hard, just the over excitedness of it, I don't know. I would agree with Cavelier and others that the things that started all this were the original Tea Party movement and social networking sites, keeping people in touch with each other, giving a platform for people to connect and voice their discontent with the status Quo.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

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