Making the Wrong Arguments by AnthonyT

REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Making the Wrong Arguments

POSTED BY: ANTHONYT
UPDATED: Tuesday, November 22, 2011 05:04
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VIEWED: 1334
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Thursday, November 17, 2011 4:36 PM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Hello,

I have been noticing a trend for people (including myself) to get caught in the wrong arguments. By this, I mean that we become consumed with material that is tangential to the point of concern.

On the issue of Torture, for instance, it is easy to get caught up in an argument about how effective it is. Meanwhile, the actual point of concern is that torture is inherently wrong, regardless of efficacy.

On the issue of Homosexuality, it is easy to get caught up in the 'It's a choice' versus 'You're born that way' argument. Meanwhile, the actual point of concern is that it's nobody's business who you're going to bed with as long as you're not hurting anyone. Even if homosexuality WAS a choice, that shouldn't have any impact on the argument.

I see people so often drawn into these sideline arguments that I wonder if there isn't something wrong with the reasoning process. It seems a kind of 'Can't see the forest for the trees' problem. We get so focused on debatable details that we miss the larger and more important ethical or moral concerns with a topic.

Unfortunately, I don't know how to fix the problem in myself, much less in people at large. But I will try to watch out for these tangents and avoid them in the future.

--Anthony

_______________________________________________

"In every war, the state enacts a tax of freedom upon the citizenry. The unspoken promise is that the tax shall be revoked at war's end. Endless war holds no such promise. Hence, Eternal War is Eternal Slavery." --Admiral Robert J. Henner

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Thursday, November 17, 2011 7:31 PM

CANTTAKESKY

Good point.

I think bickering is an especially tempting pitfall in RWED. I'm very susceptible to it myself, as you know. (Definition of "violent" parenting, anyone?) I don't have the answer either.

DT has that cartoon that says, "Someone is wrong on the internet." Maybe it taps into the reflex to "correct" others.

-----
Never be deceived that the rich will allow you to vote away their wealth. -- Lucy Parsons (1853-1942, labor activist and anarcho-communist)

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Friday, November 18, 2011 2:34 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:

I see people so often drawn into these sideline arguments that I wonder if there isn't something wrong with the reasoning process. It seems a kind of 'Can't see the forest for the trees' problem. We get so focused on debatable details that we miss the larger and more important ethical or moral concerns with a topic.

Unfortunately, I don't know how to fix the problem in myself, much less in people at large. But I will try to watch out for these tangents and avoid them in the future.

--Anthony

Kinda like how some folks love to bring up issues from other threads, and piecemeal their counter arguments together, instead of focusing on the primary issue at hand , the one which was started in the thread in the first place ?

It's an easy trap to fall into, when searching for ' ammo ' with which to both make your point, while belittling another's.

I think some here have an issue of trying to put their opponent on trial for the sum total of their prior arguments, instead of just taking a position, explaining why they're for or against said position, and going about making their case.

"The world is a dangerous place. Not because of the people who are evil; but because of the people who don't do anything about it." - Albert Einstein

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Friday, November 18, 2011 5:16 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Hello,

I'm sorry if expecting you to be logically consistent from one conversation to the next is irksome to you. I'm sorry for pointing out your 180 degree turns. I'm sorry if using your statements from five minutes ago in new conversations is confounding.

I will endeavor to never do that again. There is no way to touch you, and I will stop trying.

--Anthony

_______________________________________________

"In every war, the state enacts a tax of freedom upon the citizenry. The unspoken promise is that the tax shall be revoked at war's end. Endless war holds no such promise. Hence, Eternal War is Eternal Slavery." --Admiral Robert J. Henner

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Friday, November 18, 2011 6:10 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

YAY! One more person sees the light. Bang on Anthony, and ditto CTS. Be aware, Anthony, it may take you many tries to put it into PRACTICE, however, but don't give up. You'll be amazed at how much more time you have doing not-so-frustrating and much more enjoyable things. I love debating and discussing, but that's not what happens here for the most part, unfortunately. Sometimes we have wonderful discussions, but most of the time it's just people fighting the same old battles (almost invariably with Raptor, of course) over and over, not talking about the important aspects of the issue, and going nowhere.

I'm glad you've come on board and I wish you well. I happen to believe that, if people weren't so immediately side-tracked into arguing with Raptor and his buddies, we could ignore them (unless they make actual pertinent points) and HAVE those good discussions, but I've pretty much given up on it.

You're absolutely right; we get so caught up in arguing the points that are BROUGHT UP, rather than thinking about "what is the core of this issue?", that it becomes pretty boring and pointless most of the time. The core issue of torture IS that it's wrong, period; anyone with half a brain who thinks about it for long should realize that. The core issue of homosexuality is that some people just can't accept it, when the fact is it impacts them in no way whatsoever, and they have no reason to pry into others' lives.

That's how I feel about abortion. It's been called my "pet peeve", but it's not about abortion, it's about civil rights; a woman's right to deal with her own body, and nobody else's business except perhaps her husband's or family's (and family only if they're involved financially or some other way). So it is with many issues; it's people deciding they should have the power over other people, for whatever their own reasons, and actively trying to do it, especially by writing LAWS to intrude into others' lives. At least that's how I see it.

Congrats, Anthony; hold that thought. Like I said, it may take time to put it into practice, but it's worth it, trust me. I should give up, but I can't; there's just enough good here to keep me coming, and hoping that someday... You give me hope, for which I thank you.

Quote:
There is no way to touch you, and I will stop trying.

You nailed it.

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Sunday, November 20, 2011 8:47 AM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht

The point Anthony brings up is something that DT points out a lot, the idea that too many details distract from the main point. Why is it that when Anthony says it people like it and when DT says it people whinge about him whinging? I'm not going to dispute that DT does whinge about certain things, but still.

I think this thread is a bit high-and-mighty, just an energy that comes across, though I do see what Anthony is trying to say, sort of.

Reasonable point Raptor.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

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Sunday, November 20, 2011 8:57 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

It's a shame you find it "high and mighty", Riona, I think it's just possible you're viewing it from a slightly biased viewpoint. Around here, one's action tend to create impressions that make people judge them from past actions and attitudes rather than current comments. You said it yourself; DT whines, and it's possible (I can't remember his remarks that you mentioned) that his saying what you mentioned might be in response to something specific, rather than as a generalization of overall observation, which is what Anthony has written. If it were connected to something specific, people might well have dismissed it as whining. I can't say, I don't recall the specific thread or what other threads were in progress when he wrote it.

It's the same for all of us; I'm considered a die-hard liberal, even tho' I've said negative things about Democrats and Obama. Perhaps Raptor was speaking in generalities, but from my reading, he's targeting specific people and making an observation which both reflects his personal difficulties and is aimed in such a way as to be a "diss" to others. That's just how I see it, and of course it comes from my OWN personal experiences here.

It's very difficult to be objective here, and most of us fail most of the time. But when someone consistently, without variation, goes after others and utilizes pejoratives which have NOTHING to do with those about whom they are speaking, or even reality, it creates an atmosphere of distrust and dislike (not speaking of DT here).

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Sunday, November 20, 2011 10:25 AM

MAL4PREZ

Quote:
Originally posted by RionaEire:
...something that DT points out a lot, the idea that too many details distract from the main point.

Um... have you read DT's posts? Holy distraction of details! I surprised that you make any attempt to compare him to Anthony, who is almost heroic in his efforts to be humble and concise.

Anyway, to the point: Anthony, I believe it is a purposeful thing, this reframing an argument to focus on some narrow periphery. It can force through underlying assumptions. ie: "So, have gays chosen to be evil or were they born that way?"" Either way, gays are evil, right?

It's no accident, the rewording that's gone into the attempt to remove a woman's right to control her own body. The woman, her rights, and her body aren't even mentioned by the "right to lifers." If they can force those words out of the debate, they win automatically. The woman's right no longer exists. Thank goodness not everyone falls for that!

However, I don't so much mind tangents in online chats, since the interwebs is not about setting policies or making decisions. RWED is just for chatting shit up, seeing how other people think, and hopefully learning new things. Tangents are a necessary part of that. (Even if most of the tangents on RWED these days are repetitive and dull, imho.

)

-----------------------------------------------
hmm-burble-blah, blah-blah-blah, take a left

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Sunday, November 20, 2011 4:16 PM

FREMDFIRMA

Indeed, Mal4 - sometimes the wiki-walk discussion process leads to interesting and fascinating places a more "organized" discussion wouldn't, and often enough sends people to properly question their own assumptions.

That said, Anthony kinda beat me to the punch here cause I was actually gonna mention in that thread that bogging down into the nitpicking of the details by no means makes torture any less an objectionable thing.

Pulling it down into nitpicks is a deliberate sabotage tactic at times too, cause baiting folk into allowing certain assumptions to pass unchallenged is the intention behind it, as you well point out with womens rights, and oddly a pet peeve on mine on the same subject, at which I will expound in relatively hostile fashion when provoked sufficiently...

Anyhows, either way is fine, because sometimes within these details lie the core of WHY people feel a certain way about an issue, and if you can connect those bits to the underlying assumptions and point out just how incompatible they are, any sane person will start to question it.

Which of course begs the question of sanity, something which I feel is kind of overrated to begin with.

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

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Sunday, November 20, 2011 4:54 PM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up

Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:
Hello,

I have been noticing a trend for people (including myself) to get caught in the wrong arguments.

Like wondering what the WTO is, or isn't, doing about slave labor in a thread about Boeing vs. Airbus?

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Sunday, November 20, 2011 5:29 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Quote:
Originally posted by Geezer:
Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:
Hello,

I have been noticing a trend for people (including myself) to get caught in the wrong arguments.

Like wondering what the WTO is, or isn't, doing about slave labor in a thread about Boeing vs. Airbus?

"Keep the Shiny side up"

Hello,

Yes indeed, when the subject of international trade organizations came up, I should have started a new thread to inquire about them.

--Anthony

_______________________________________________

"In every war, the state enacts a tax of freedom upon the citizenry. The unspoken promise is that the tax shall be revoked at war's end. Endless war holds no such promise. Hence, Eternal War is Eternal Slavery." --Admiral Robert J. Henner

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Sunday, November 20, 2011 6:36 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:
Hello,

I'm sorry if expecting you to be logically consistent from one conversation to the next is irksome to you. I'm sorry for pointing out your 180 degree turns. I'm sorry if using your statements from five minutes ago in new conversations is confounding.

I will endeavor to never do that again. There is no way to touch you, and I will stop trying.

--Anthony

But I AM consistent. That's where your lack of understanding comes into play.

Like the 3 blind men and the elephant. You're taking bits and pieces , out of context, and trying to claim that there's no way they can ALL be from the same animal.

They are.

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Sunday, November 20, 2011 7:34 PM

MAGONSDAUGHTER

Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:
Hello,

I have been noticing a trend for people (including myself) to get caught in the wrong arguments. By this, I mean that we become consumed with material that is tangential to the point of concern.

On the issue of Torture, for instance, it is easy to get caught up in an argument about how effective it is. Meanwhile, the actual point of concern is that torture is inherently wrong, regardless of efficacy.

I agree 100% with this statement. It was why 24 drove me crazy, it was such a blatant chaos of tv doing goverment propaganda. Preparing the masses to accept what should be unacceptable by making torture about life and death mstters. The issue is that countries that accept torture was a legit interrogation method it is used for mundane things, like robbery and assault as well as being used against political dissenters.

Quote:
On the issue of Homosexuality, it is easy to get caught up in the 'It's a choice' versus 'You're born that way' argument. Meanwhile, the actual point of concern is that it's nobody's business who you're going to bed with as long as you're not hurting anyone. Even if homosexuality WAS a choice, that shouldn't have any impact on the argument.

Agree also with this.

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Sunday, November 20, 2011 9:19 PM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht

Its true that DT whinges about this in one post, and then tangents in another into details. He does both, but I was pointing out the former since it seemed related to this idea. He started that "non problem" thread to say we get too distracted by things to actually talk about the real issues. I thought the thread was silly so I didn't contribute.

I don't mind thread drift unless the thread was started for a specific and specified purpose besides general discussion.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

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Sunday, November 20, 2011 9:42 PM

MAGONSDAUGHTER

Well we all have our idiosyncracies in the way that we post.

DT berates us for posting certain topics and talks a lot about frakking
I make cold and intellectual arguments
Rappy posts soundbites spouted from the Righty Network
Rione berates us for being cold and/or pompous/and or inhumane
Anthony does not use contractions
Chrisisall is flippant
Byte denigrates herself psychologically
PN posts ludicrous topics that involve a world jewish conspiracy
Niki posts photos of herself being carted around by her dogs

Thus is the rich tapestry of FFF.net

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Sunday, November 20, 2011 10:07 PM

FREMDFIRMA

What, no mention of Mikeys flowery sarcasm or my aggressive anti-authorian antagonism ?

-F

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Sunday, November 20, 2011 10:34 PM

MAGONSDAUGHTER

Ha ha. I was thinking of you, Frem and others, but lost concentration mid post as I am apt

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Monday, November 21, 2011 5:40 PM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht

I think Niki's pictures of her dogs are pretty cool. That sulky thing is neato!

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

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Monday, November 21, 2011 6:59 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)

Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
What, no mention of Mikeys flowery sarcasm or my aggressive anti-authorian antagonism ?

-F

That you notice it and appreciate the effort is mention enough! :)

I was once called into a meeting with the boss and his new henchman, and was informed that the tone of my e-mails was "toxic" because I was pointing out that it's okay to shoot oneself in the foot from time to time in business, but stopping to reload time after time was unforgivable.

When I was told my e-mails were "toxic", it was all I could do not to jump up, take an exaggerated Shakespearean bow, and say, "One tries, good sir. One tries." I did laugh out loud, though - I was unable to hold it back.

I still exist; I'm still gainfully employed. That boss is now homeless and his business is long gone. I got out while he was reloading again...

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Monday, November 21, 2011 8:04 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important

"Anthony does not use contractions"

Hello,

I am sure that I must, at least occasionally...

I swear I am not a Soong type android.

--Anthony

_______________________________________________

"In every war, the state enacts a tax of freedom upon the citizenry. The unspoken promise is that the tax shall be revoked at war's end. Endless war holds no such promise. Hence, Eternal War is Eternal Slavery." --Admiral Robert J. Henner

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Monday, November 21, 2011 8:46 PM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht

Its cute how Anthony doesn't use contractions, I find it charming and old fashioned.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

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Tuesday, November 22, 2011 5:04 AM

FREMDFIRMA

Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:
"Anthony does not use contractions"

Hello,

I am sure that I must, at least occasionally...

I swear I am not a Soong type android.

--Anthony

*laughing*

Get off my shtick!
Obscure triple-layer humor is my turf, hehehe

-F

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