REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Grover Norquist lies through his teeth

POSTED BY: NIKI2
UPDATED: Sunday, November 27, 2011 20:52
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Monday, November 21, 2011 11:22 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Liar, liar, pants on fire:
Quote:

Notorious anti-tax crusader Grover Norquist said Democrats who've blamed him for the super committee's bipartisan budget gridlock are simply lying.

The president of Americans for Tax Reform encouraged Republican members of the Joint Select Committee on Deficit Reduction to sign a pledge that binds them to resist raising taxes as they work to find $1.2 trillion dollars in deficit-cutting measures by Wednesday, but on CNN's "American Morning," he said the pledge was between the country and its congressmen, and not with him.

Democratic Sen. Patty Murray called Norquist out Sunday on CNN's "State of the Union" saying his name came up too often during super committee negotiations.

"As long as we have some Republican lawmakers who feel more enthralled with a pledge they took to a Republican lobbyist than they do to a pledge to the country to solve the problems, this is going to be hard to do," she said.

Norquist fired back Monday.

"The senator is not telling the truth," he argued.

"For the congressmen and senators who signed the taxpayer protection pledge, they and the American people know the pledge is from them to the voters of their district and their state."

And although he admitted, "they have tried to say I'm the reason Republicans won't raise taxes, that's not nonsense," Norquist directed blame back at Democrats saying, "The Democrats want higher taxes. That's off the table."

"It's been off the table for a year," he continued. "The Democrats are a little hard of hearing."

Defending his role in promoting the pledge, first signed by President Ronald Reagan in 1986, Norquist insisted again, "The pledge that congressmen and senators make is not to me despite what Reid and other Democrats pretend. When they say that, let's use the kind word. It's not true. It's a lie." http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2011/11/21/norquist-democrats-are
-lying/
, the lies are his. The "pledge" was not "between the country and its congressmen, and not with him." The vast majority of the American people WANT taxes increased on the rich, ergo to say it's between "the country" is a lie. Congressmen are supposed to REPRESENT the people who elected them, so ignoring what they want on this issue at a time of danger obviously leaves Congressmen out of the equation. Norquist has used his own power and influence to threaten and blackmail Republicans into never, under any circumstances, even consider raising any kind of taxes whatsoever, wich makes the "pledge" between HIM and our REPRESENTATIVES, pure and simple. He IS the reason Republicans won't even talk about raising taxes, that's been shown over and over, especially by forty of them writing that letter recognizing the truth: "To succeed, all options for mandatory and discretionary spending and revenues must be on the table." Of course, that's only one-SIXTH of the Republicans in Congress, so they were doomoed to failure, and Norquist's hold on the rest is perhaps not the ONLY reason, but the MAIN reason the others won't even consider compromise.

He also didn't get a pledge to "resist" raising taxes, he got one to flatly REFUSE to even CONSIDER raising ANY taxes which actually cost anyone, EVER. Verbiage counts.
Quote:

Today, the 12-member congressional super committee is expected to announce failure to reach an agreement to cut $1.5 trillion from the federal budget. One of major “sticking divides,” as Democratic co-chair Sen. Patty Murray (WA) noted, has been Republicans refusal to consider a widely supported tax increase on America’s wealthy.

This intransigence is largely motivated by the shadowy influence of lobbyist Grover Norquist, the head of Americans for Tax Reform, who threatens to serve any Republican who breaks his anti-tax pledge with electoral defeat. Today on CNN, super committee member Sen. John Kerry (D-MA) noted that Norquist’s handcuffs on his GOP colleagues essentially makes him the “13th member of this committee without being there“:
Quote:

We Democrats put a $4 trillion dollar plan on the table. We had $1.3 trillion of cuts, and we had $1.3 trillion in revenue (that's called "compromise", if anyone's interested. N).... So we have the ability here to do something that’s fair for all Americans. But unfortunately, this thing about the Bush tax cuts and the pledge to Grover Norquist keeps coming up. Grover Norquist has been the 13th member of this committee without being there. I can’t tell you how many times we hear about ‘the pledge, the pledge.’ Well all of us took a pledge to uphold the Constitution and to full and faithfully and well execute our duties and I think that requires us to try and reach an agreement. So we have to compromise.
Despite Norquist’s desire to “crush the other team,” it seems that more and more members of his own team are starting to agree with Kerry. GOP Rep. Mike Simpson (ID) said regarding Norquist’s anti-tax pledge, “I didn’t know I was signing a marriage agreement.” Rep. Frank Wolf (R-VA) blasted Norquist for “paralyzing Congress.” Freshman Rep. Reid Ribble (R-WI) vowed to never sign another pledge, noting the last straw came when Norquist wouldn’t let Republicans close tax loopholes that subsidize ethanol production. Former GOP Sen. Alan Simpson simply said, “If Grover Norquist is the most powerful person in America, he should run for president” rather than peddle his influence backstage.

Amen. Even some Republicans are beginning to see the danger he represents, but they have no hope of overcoming his power. Although some would like to, it appears it's already too late; he's won his "battle", he's made impossible any compromise in the Super Committee, to the detriment of the entire country and our future.
Quote:

A growing number of GOP lawmakers have disavowed Norquist’s pledge against supporting tax increases in recent days, telling The Hill they no longer feel bound to uphold a document that they signed, in some cases, more than a decade ago.

Norquist’s advocacy group, Americans for Tax Reform, lists 238 House signers of its Taxpayer Protection Pledge, but several House Republicans, and at least one Democrat, now say the anti-tax group is being deceptive and want their names taken off the list.

“I haven’t signed it since 1994,” Rep. Steven LaTourette (R-Ohio) said, explaining that he didn’t even remember endorsing the pledge until Americans for Tax Reform produced the original document earlier this year.

In its publicly displayed list of signers “in the 112th Congress,” Norquist’s group includes several members who say they have specifically refused to sign the pledge during their most recent campaigns.

The sheet of paper they signed years ago, the lawmakers say, is no longer valid
.

“My driver’s license expires. The milk in my refrigerator expires. My gym membership expires, and I find the website to be a little deceptive,” LaTourette said.

Norquist immediately dismissed the claim, which was echoed by several other House Republicans.

“Does that even pass the laugh test?” Norquist told The Hill. “A promise not to do something doesn’t have a time limit.

I haven’t even had junior state legislators pull that crap,” Norquist added. (Note: "Pull that crap" on HIM, no mention of the American people. N.)

The pledge dissenters represent the latest challenge to Norquist, widely considered the nation’s most influential anti-tax activist.
.....
Democrats are insisting on new tax revenues, but the pledge mandates that any tax changes be revenue-neutral. They blame the pledge for the impasse in the talks.

The difficulty we find is that every one of these discussions, Grover Norquist seems to be in the room,” Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid (D-Nev.) told reporters Tuesday. “I am hopeful that the Republicans on the supercommittee will break away from this.”

Reid’s comments came as GOP panel members offered to raise tax revenue by limiting deductions in exchange for lowering rates (In other words, create no revenue. N.), in what aides characterized as a significant concession in the negotiations. Democrats panned the offer, saying the new revenue would be erased by extending Bush-era tax rates. Norquist, meanwhile, derided it in a Twitter post as an “idiot idea” reminiscent of the Alternative Minimum Tax.

All but six House Republicans are listed as signers of Norquist’s pledge, meaning that a voting majority of the body is on record opposing tax increases.
.....
Norquist has waged public battles with other Republican critics of his activism, most notably this spring with Sen. Tom Coburn (Okla.). House Speaker John Boehner (R-Ohio) raised eyebrows last week when he referred to Norquist as “some random person” even as he defended the House GOP’s steadfast opposition to tax increases.

Americans for Tax Reform lists two House Democrats, Reps. Robert Andrews (N.J.) and Ben Chandler (Ky.), as pledge signers, but Andrews told The Hill he signed the document a single time, in 1992, and wants his name removed.

“I understood it to mean that for the next term, if I were elected, I would not vote to raise taxes,” Andrews, who called the ATR website “terribly misleading,” said in an interview. “I honored that pledge. I never renewed it.

“I never considered it to be like my marriage vows,” he added. “I’m married to Camille Andrews, not Grover Norquist. I promised her to be faithful until death do us part, and I mean it. I did not promise him to oppose tax increases until death do us part.”

Rep. Mike Simpson (R-Idaho) signed the pledge in 1998, when he first ran for Congress, and said he didn’t even know he was still on the list until earlier this year. “I thought it was for the next Congress,” Simpson said. “If it sticks with you forever, why do they ask you to re-sign it every two years?”

LaTourette said he had also assumed he had not signed it and even enlisted Boehner’s office to check with Norquist’s group, which confirmed that he did endorse the pledge in 1994.

ATR officials said the group’s practice is not to ask pledge-takers to sign it more than once, although several lawmakers reported being sent the pledge regularly during their reelection campaigns. Norquist said it was perhaps sent by state or local groups and that sometimes ATR sends it out en masse to candidates. But, he added, that’s never under the notion that those who have already signed it have to sign again.

Republican Reps. Howard Coble (N.C.), Pete King (N.Y.) and Lee Terry (Neb.) all indicated, either in interviews or through spokesmen, that they signed the pledge more than a decade ago but not for the current Congress.
.....
[Norquist} also signaled that ATR would not hesitate to target pledge signers if they voted for a debt deal that included tax increases.
.....
Some Republicans have disavowed the pledge not based on a dispute over its duration, but because they say it constrains their policy choices.

Rep. Jeff Fortenberry (R-Neb.) signed the pledge prior to being elected to Congress in 2004, a spokeswoman told The Hill.

But Kerri Price, the spokeswoman, said that by the start of his second term, Fortenberry thought the pledge limited his ability to look at policy issues creatively. Since then, the Nebraska Republican has repeatedly asked, so far unsuccessfully, for his name to be taken off the list of pledge signers on ATR’s website.

“I don’t care to be associated with it. It’s too constraining,” Fortenberry told an August town hall in his district, according to the Lincoln Journal Star. http://thehill.com/homenews/house/192529-house-gop-lawmakers-want-out-
of-tax-pledge

So let's get real: It IS Grover Norquist himself who is driving this, demanding it, and PROMISING to "target" anyone who goes against it. That's power, pure and simple.

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Monday, November 21, 2011 12:54 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


He's not lying, and he's right.

The problem is spending, not too few taxes.

Taxed

Enough

Already.

The liar here are the Democrats, like John Kerry.

Quote:


The congressional super committee tasked with cutting $1.5 trillion from the federal deficit over the next 10 years is likely to announce its failure today, and the main reason is that the committee’s six Republicans refused to budge on their support for massive tax cuts for the rich.

- John Kerry.

The lie that the Bush tax cuts were ONLY for the rich,and that they were massive, continues to be spread. The GOP aren't asking for MORE cuts, just in keeping the successful Bush tax cuts.

The Dems are obsessed with taking more and more of our money, to hire more federal workers, to enslave this nation more and more under the yoke of govt control and oppression. FINALLY, there are a few folks wiling to stand in the way of the totalitarian thugs on the Left.

Bravo.





"The world is a dangerous place. Not because of the people who are evil; but because of the people who don't do anything about it." - Albert Einstein

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Tuesday, November 22, 2011 9:50 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Bump, because now that the failure of the "Super Committee" has become obvious, THIS is the guy you can thank for it, and for all the subsequent pain we will suffer. I grant that possibly the Dems don't want it to succeed, either, and may have perpetrated their own tactics, but when you have a plan calling for PRECISELY the same amount of cuts as tax increases (called "compromise", remember?), and it's been proven over and over that we can't solve the problem via cuts alone, Norquist threatening legislators and forcing them to draw the line at "no taxes, EVER", it pretty much ensures failure. So thank Mr. Norquist, when the result of this has you hurting. Unless, more likely, they just say "fuck it" and undo the whole thing...which they probably will. But if that's the case, we have nonetheless lost our best opportunity to make a dent in the deficit.

When one side of power says "sure, we'll compromise...here's what we're willing to compromise on" and the other side says "NO COMPROMISE! NOT NOW, NOT EVER!", everybody loses. Thanx Grover.


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Tuesday, November 22, 2011 9:59 AM

M52NICKERSON

DALEK!


Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:
Bump, because now that the failure of the "Super Committee" has become obvious, THIS is the guy you can thank for it, and for all the subsequent pain we will suffer. I grant that possibly the Dems don't want it to succeed, either, and may have perpetrated their own tactics, but when you have a plan calling for PRECISELY the same amount of cuts as tax increases (called "compromise", remember?), and it's been proven over and over that we can't solve the problem via cuts alone, Norquist threatening legislators and forcing them to draw the line at "no taxes, EVER", it pretty much ensures failure. So thank Mr. Norquist, when the result of this has you hurting. Unless, more likely, they just say "fuck it" and undo the whole thing...which they probably will. But if that's the case, we have nonetheless lost our best opportunity to make a dent in the deficit.

When one side of power says "sure, we'll compromise...here's what we're willing to compromise on" and the other side says "NO COMPROMISE! NOT NOW, NOT EVER!", everybody loses. Thanx Grover.



...and now the GOP will watch as massive cuts from the defense budget are automatically made, and if nothing else is agreed upon all the Bush tax cut will expire.




I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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Tuesday, November 22, 2011 10:47 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


"...and now the GOP will watch as massive cuts from the defense budget are automatically made, and if nothing else is agreed upon all the Bush tax cut will expire."

Hello,

My understanding is that all this 'automatically happens' in a year. Not exactly the deadman's drop it looks like. They have a whole year of this nonsense to go yet, before the deadline really means do or die.

--Anthony


_______________________________________________

"In every war, the state enacts a tax of freedom upon the citizenry. The unspoken promise is that the tax shall be revoked at war's end. Endless war holds no such promise. Hence, Eternal War is Eternal Slavery." --Admiral Robert J. Henner


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Tuesday, November 22, 2011 10:52 AM

STORYMARK


And havn't they already been working to exempt defense spending from the trigger cuts?

With a whole year - a campaign year no less -to go, I have a feeling they'll find a way.

"Goram it kid, let's frak this thing and go home! Engage!"

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Tuesday, November 22, 2011 11:16 AM

M52NICKERSON

DALEK!


Quote:

Originally posted by Storymark:
And havn't they already been working to exempt defense spending from the trigger cuts?

With a whole year - a campaign year no less -to go, I have a feeling they'll find a way.

"Goram it kid, let's frak this thing and go home! Engage!"



Well if they do it will have to involve a 2/3 majority because the President promised to veto any exemptions to those cuts.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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Tuesday, November 22, 2011 11:28 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Hello,

I do not believe the President. He has shown an affinity for compromising his supposed ideals since before the presidential election. He betrayed the American people before ever taking his oath of office, and has not shrunk from bending ever since.

Forgive me if this seems harsh, but I may have lost my patience with the man. His advances are tepid and his retreats are swift.

--Anthony


_______________________________________________

"In every war, the state enacts a tax of freedom upon the citizenry. The unspoken promise is that the tax shall be revoked at war's end. Endless war holds no such promise. Hence, Eternal War is Eternal Slavery." --Admiral Robert J. Henner


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Tuesday, November 22, 2011 1:48 PM

FREMDFIRMA



So polite...

You coulda just said "Obama is fulla shit."
Why waste words ?

-F

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Tuesday, November 22, 2011 2:39 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Hello Frem,

I try to avoid using words that create such a visceral emotional response that people stop reading/listening to me.

But, yeah, what you said.

--Anthony


_______________________________________________

"In every war, the state enacts a tax of freedom upon the citizenry. The unspoken promise is that the tax shall be revoked at war's end. Endless war holds no such promise. Hence, Eternal War is Eternal Slavery." --Admiral Robert J. Henner


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Tuesday, November 22, 2011 3:40 PM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht


Frem just says whatever pops into his head and everyone still likes him, even when he's mean or rowdy or obnoxious. If I did that I don't think people would like me as much. Sometime I should try it, just as an experiment.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

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Tuesday, November 22, 2011 4:49 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Hello,

I think it's important not only what you say, but what people perceive your intentions to be. If you explode into a rant, why are you doing it? Are you trying to tear people down? To hurt them? To humiliate them? Or is there something more going on?

I think that in the past I have said something that may have been offensive to you, Riona. I know that every once in a while you have said something that irks me a bit.

But I never had the sense you were trying to hurt me, mock me, or anger me intentionally. You tend to express yourself openly and without much reservation. Your words seem to me to be aimed at good purposes. So, I don't mind the occasional stray arrow, and I hope you forgive me mine.

If memory serves, the first time Frem and I spoke, he scathed me with a whirlwind of angry words. Today I consider him a friend. The what of things is important, but the why is moreso. If you believe that someone has noble intentions and a good heart, you will tend to forgive them almost anything.

But if you don't believe this about someone... if you think that they are just cruel?

Forgiveness comes hard.

--Anthony


_______________________________________________

"In every war, the state enacts a tax of freedom upon the citizenry. The unspoken promise is that the tax shall be revoked at war's end. Endless war holds no such promise. Hence, Eternal War is Eternal Slavery." --Admiral Robert J. Henner


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Tuesday, November 22, 2011 4:56 PM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht


I think you're right Anthony, its easier to forgive someone who hurt your feelings if you know they weren't trying to be mean. Its not so very hard to figure it out either, even on the Internet. In fact sometimes working out disputes with friends over email is easier for both parties then doing it in person, especially if its something that both parties have strong feelings about.

And yeah, that's just how Frem is, I don't think anyone takes it personally because that's just how he expresses himself. I try to be more diplomatic without letting myself and what I was saying be compromised, but on the other hand I tend to say how I feel, even if it might not go over as well as I want.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

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Tuesday, November 22, 2011 4:59 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:


If memory serves, the first time Frem and I spoke, he scathed me with a whirlwind of angry words. Today I consider him a friend. The what of things is important, but the why is moreso. If you believe that someone has noble intentions and a good heart, you will tend to forgive them almost anything.

But if you don't believe this about someone... if you think that they are just cruel?

Forgiveness comes hard.




If memory serves, you and I (and Frem and I as well) have had some fairly vociferous disagreements as well. But the two of you are probably my closest friends on this board, because I don't believe you both have noble intentions and good hearts; I *KNOW* it.

And brutal honesty amongst friends shouldn't result in hurt feelings.

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Tuesday, November 22, 2011 5:57 PM

FREMDFIRMA



That's why - honesty.

If I am raging, it's cause I CARE.
That simple.

-F

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Wednesday, November 23, 2011 5:59 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Yup, Anthony, I have the same expectations, for the same reason:
Quote:

He has shown an affinity for compromising his supposed ideals.
Shees, Riona, you've turned RWED into a friggin' love fest! Don't worry, won't last, but fun to see for a change of pace.



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Thursday, November 24, 2011 12:34 AM

MAGONSDAUGHTER


American politicans have very odd names.

Move it along. Nothing of interest to see in this post.

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Thursday, November 24, 2011 2:24 AM

CANTTAKESKY


Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
And brutal honesty amongst friends shouldn't result in hurt feelings.

Not amongst friends, no.

But most people on this board aren't friends. At least, not mine.

They don't attack you and Frem and Anthony as viciously as they attack me. I also have good intentions (of course, methinks), but opponents don't see it.

Those of us without raw charisma in penmanship (as you 3 have) need politeness just to stay alive in these shark-infested waters.

But, I've been caring less and less about being polite. Fuck 'em.

-----
Never be deceived that the rich will allow you to vote away their wealth. -- Lucy Parsons (1853-1942, labor activist and anarcho-communist)

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Thursday, November 24, 2011 7:27 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


I agree with the "fuck 'em", CTS, but I must not be paying attention. I hadn't noticed that "they" went after you particularly, just that you're pretty much polite and are great in a discussion. Of course virtually everyone here is a target from the unpleasant righties, but I guess I just assume that and don't notice anyone being singled out. I'm a favorite target, of course, and Mike and Story or Sig usually INVITE nastiness and return it in kind, I guess I just haven't been paying attention to others being on the receiving end of their ire. I'm sorry that's the case, you and Anthony are two of the most polite here, so it's doubly sad.



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Sunday, November 27, 2011 8:52 PM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht


I see the people here as friends, I'd be willing/happy to meet anyone that I happened to be in the city of, well, almost anyone.

I don't hear people attack you often CTS, though I've heard some rumors about you, which were stated openly on this forum so I'm sure you know what they might be. But other than that incident I can't remember anyone, during my time here, late Jan. to the present, being mean to you.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

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