REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Regarding Pepper Spray

POSTED BY: NIKI2
UPDATED: Monday, November 28, 2011 19:31
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Wednesday, November 23, 2011 8:40 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Quote:

Pepper spray (in police jargon "OC," for its Latin name of oleoresin capsicum), an oil derived from cayenne peppers, is classified as a chemical weapon, and as such banned for use in war--but not in domestic police work. Pepper spray was introduced to the U.S. in the 1980s by the Postal Service, which used it as a dog repellent. Thereafter, it was quickly adopted by corrections officers and police departments, which adopted it primarily for use in incapacitating violent suspects; the FBI proclaimed pepper spray its "official chemical agent" in 1987. (Helping push OC's use was FBI Special Agent Thomas Ward, who later pleaded guilty to accepting a $57,500 kickback from a pepper spray company.) It's quickly become a common part of the police arsenal: Rikers Island guards have used pepper spray or mace on inmates 1,500 times over the last three and a half years, according to the New York Times (11/8/99).

The pepper spray used by police is highly concentrated--300 times as strong as jalapeño peppers, and five times as strong as the pepper-spray mixture sold for self-defense to the public. When sprayed directly in the eyes, as was done on countless occasions by Seattle police wielding fire-extinguisher-like dispensers, it can create intense, burning pain and restricted breathing unless quickly flushed out. (The U.S. Consumer Product Safety Commission, in fact, requires commercially sold pepper spray to carry a caution label: "Warning: irritant, avoid contact with eyes.")

Steven Christianson, who was sprayed by Burlington, Vermont, police during an anti-war protest in 1998, recalled the effects of pepper spray to the Vermont Rutland Herald (2/22/98): "I felt this incredible burning, loss of breath, from the time the cop stuck the spray in my face until 45 minutes later, everything is a blank, just excruciating pain. I have no recollections. All that went through my mind was pain."

In fact, more than 100 people in the U.S. have died in police custody after having pepper spray used on them, according to the International Association of Chiefs of Police (Vermont Rutland Herald, 2/22/98).
.....
"Use of pepper spray prior to arrest and then failure to provide medical treatment afterward [can be said to] be objectively unreasonable, excessive force under both the Fourth and Eighth Amendments," according to police misconduct expert Lynne Wilson (Police Misconduct and Civil Rights Law Report, 3-4/97).
.....
Newsweek criticized Seattle's mayor and police chief for "fail[ing] to give their undermanned police force enough backup until it was way too late," while in the Boston Globe (12/3/99), Lynda Gorov wrote that "police and the city were caught unprepared" for the "self-declared anarchists" who "came ready to rumble."

In fact, it was the police who came ready to rumble. On the public access network Deep Dish Television, reporters were shown specially designed batons with flat edges, the better to cause pain and injury, that were issued to Seattle police. Meanwhile, the police had ordered a fresh supply of $20,000 worth of pepper spray--augmented, after supplies started running low, by a raid on the stores of neighboring police departments, the King County Jail, and the Department of Corrections, while a police captain flew to Casper, Wyo., to pick up a stock of gas from federal agents. As the mayor bragged, "We've given them 'RoboCop' material." (Seattle Post-Intelligencer, 12/4/99)

Peter Cassidy, a police tactics researcher who is working on a book about the militarization of American life, notes that "it was interesting that you saw the National Guard and the police side-by-side doing the same jobs, wearing almost exactly the same uniforms." Also new to Cassidy was the use of "SAP gloves," designer leather gloves with buckshot sewn into them, "so you can whap someone across the face and do more damage than you do with your knuckles."
.....
You generally had to turn to the alternative, college and international press for in-depth reporting of police treatment of protesters. The University of Colorado’s Colorado Daily (12/4/99) reported at week's end that "hundreds of arrested protesters have been denied food, water, medical attention and legal representation, while others have reportedly been sprayed in the face with pepper spray as they sat in jail cells, shackled with both hand cuffs and leg irons." Agence Presse France (12/4/99), meanwhile, interviewed Direct Action Network spokesperson Karen Coulter, who reported that "Our legal team has gone in and found out that beatings in detention were severe, and there has been repeated use of pepper spray in detention."

Brutality against detainees was reported widely by the Independent Media Center ( www.indymedia.org) and other independent outlets by the end of the WTO meetings, but virtually invisible in the mainstream press, which by then had moved on to comparisons with "anarchist outbreaks" in Eugene, Oregon (New York Times, 12/3/99), and shopkeepers' reactions as "for the first time in several days residents trickled in for holiday shopping" (Washington Post, 12/4/99).

"The problem was, the cops were trained by the federal government to believe they needed to approach this as a military operation," says Cassidy, "and then when people started breaking things, there was no manpower left over to just act like police."

Cassidy worries that the lack of concern over the Seattle police behavior "will lend credibility for other police departments to do the same thing." Which would mean that "opening your mouth becomes something that exposes you to danger. It exposes you to militarized forms of law enforcement." http://www.fair.org/index.php?page=1029] Over the weekend, Lieutenant John Pike was photographed casually pepper spraying peaceful Occupy Wall Street protesters at UC Davis, turning himself into a full-blown meme and symbol of police brutality. Thanks to artist James Alex, the subjects in paintings have probably become his most famous victims, but the truth is, there’s growing concern for what pepper spray—casual or not—might do to the health of real-life protesters.
By many accounts, the name “pepper spray” is overly benign for a substance that can cause death and be used as a torture device. Deborah Blum wrote at Scientific American:
Quote:

…we’ve taken to calling it pepper spray, I think, because that makes it sound so much more benign than it really is, like something just a grade or so above what we might mix up in a home kitchen. The description hints maybe at that eye-stinging effect that the cook occasionally experiences when making something like a jalapeno-based salsa, a little burn, nothing too serious.
But take Jeniffer Fox, a 19-year-old Seattleite who recently suffered a miscarriage, less than a week after she sustained injuries during police action at an OWS protest earlier this month, including the use of pepper spray. While there’s no hard proof that her miscarriage was directly caused by pepper spray, it doesn’t seem unreasonable to think that it could be harmful to a developing fetus, given the dangers it brings to fully grown adults.
To start, here’s a quick primer on the ingredients in pepper spray that could be harmful to your health:
Quote:

Pepper spray’s main active ingredient is oleoresin capsicum (OC)—oil extracted from a genus of peppers known as capsicum (the same kinds of peppers used in salsa, spices, and even some analgesics). But the strength can vary widely between pepper spray brands (the health effects can vary just as much).

Depending on the brand, pepper spray can also contain water, alcohols, or organic solvents as a carrier for OC. They can also contain nitrogen, carbon dioxide, or halogenated hydrocarbons as propellants. Some of these chemicals can have serious cardiac, respiratory and neurologic effects when inhaled in high doses.


And here’s a quick rundown of what OC can do to various parts of your body (information mostly taken from this University of North Carolina and Duke University research paper):
Quote:


Skin - Skin exposure to pepper spray can cause intense pain, burning and even blistering of the skin. It worsens skin conditions like allergic dermatitis, and in severe cases, it can cause hypothermia.

Eyes - OC causes a burning pain in the eyes, inflammation and involuntary closing of the eyelids. In extreme cases it can cause temporary blindness. It can also cause longer-term eye damage thanks to sustained loss of blink reflex and/or anesthesia, which can cause corneal abrasions from contact lenses or other foreign material.

Respiratory System - Pepper spray often causes a burning throat, wheezing, gagging, and difficulty breathing. In extreme cases, it can cause “laryngospasm,” which leads to an inability to speak or breathe. For those with asthma, exposure to OC can even cause death.

While many of the effects are short-term, some of them are serious enough that the American Civil Liberties Union asked the California Court of Appeals to consider the use of pepper spray as dangerous and cruel, following its use in a 1999 protest. (“The ACLU believes that the use of pepper spray as a kind of chemical cattle prod on nonviolent demonstrators resisting arrest constitutes excessive force and violates the Constitution,” wrote an ACLU lawyer.) http://blisstree.com/live/pepper-spray-dangerous-health-effects-718/2/

The strongest pepper known, according to the Scoville Chile Heat Chart (where pure capsasin is measured at 15,000,000, and certified by the Guiness Book of World Records as the hottest pepper in the world, is something called the Bhut Jolokia, or "ghost pepper". On the Scoville Scale, where Jalalpenos are counted at 3,500-8,000, the ghost pepper registers1,000,000. Those are the hottest peppers in nature. The pepper spray used by police is the only thing hotter on that scale, measuring 2,000,000 to 5,300,000. Two to five times hotter than the ghost pepper.

Does this tell you something about the militarization of police forces dealing with OWS protesters?

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Wednesday, November 23, 2011 8:55 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Hello,

A brief note, merely to deal with a piece of weapons information provided by the article.

A flat sided baton may cause more pain, but likely not more injury, than a round baton. When striking someone for the purposes of causing damage, it is desirable to focus the kinetic energy of the strike in as small an area as possible. This is why swords and axes have edges- so that the kinetic energy of the swing is focused on a single point or thin line of impact, increasing the likelihood of penetration and doing more damage to the strike area.

The effect of striking someone with a flat object (such as an open palm) is to spread the kinetic energy of the blow over a wider area. This can certainly mean more pain, as more nerves are brought into the dance, but is unlikely to cause more damage. In fact, when we slap someone instead of punching them, it is often with the intention of creating lots of pain and little damage. (A broad palm spreads the energy widely, while the knuckles serve to focus the energy on a small impact point. Knuckles are also, of course, harder than palms.)

Now, if these flat-sided batons have an edge, this edge could be used to focus the energy of the blow on a slender line of impact, and this would increase the damage of the blow.

On the issue of chemical weapons...

I would be interested to know the effect of these weapons on someone with asthma. Has there ever been a study?

--Anthony

_______________________________________________

"In every war, the state enacts a tax of freedom upon the citizenry. The unspoken promise is that the tax shall be revoked at war's end. Endless war holds no such promise. Hence, Eternal War is Eternal Slavery." --Admiral Robert J. Henner


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Wednesday, November 23, 2011 9:52 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


But FauxNews's Megyn Kelly swears it can't be that bad to get hit in the eyes with pepper spray, because it's "essentially a food product." Of course, so is mustard gas, right?

Maybe she should volunteer for an in-studio test!

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Wednesday, November 23, 2011 10:33 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Hello,

I think if a study proves the lethal potential of OCS in asthma sufferers, and another study shows the percentage of asthma sufferers in the population, you could get the whole practice thrown out on that basis alone.

On the other hand, if the study fails to show any such thing, I may supplement my inhaler with a pepper sprayer to clear up my stuffy nose.

I suspect the former is true, however.

--Anthony

_______________________________________________

"In every war, the state enacts a tax of freedom upon the citizenry. The unspoken promise is that the tax shall be revoked at war's end. Endless war holds no such promise. Hence, Eternal War is Eternal Slavery." --Admiral Robert J. Henner


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Wednesday, November 23, 2011 11:22 AM

CANTTAKESKY


Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
Maybe she should volunteer for an in-studio test!

I was just thinking that. Anyone who defends waterboarding or pepper spray as "not that bad" should undergo a personal trial before anyone takes him/her seriously.

I think it is of interest to note policies on pepper spray use around the world.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pepper_spray

Anthony, you raised some good questions. This is what I found

https://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles1/nij/188069.pdf
Study found no significant impairment on respiratory or cardiovascular functions in the lab setting.

http://nopepperspray.org/health_hazards_of_pepper_spray_ncjm.htm
Lists all potential biological effects and advises high degree of monitoring and caution

Even if it is "safe" to use with asthmatic patients, it is still an extremely physically irritating and burning chemical weapon. On principle alone, there is no need to use such extremes with either non-violent offenders or children.


-----
Never be deceived that the rich will allow you to vote away their wealth. -- Lucy Parsons (1853-1942, labor activist and anarcho-communist)

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Wednesday, November 23, 2011 12:07 PM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Yeah Mike, I heard that Megyn Kelly idiocy. I'm long past being surprised by anything I hear from FoxNoise, and this one was pretty predictable. I long ago accepted that those on FauxNews will say anything and everything which serves their purpose, whether idiotic or outright lies.

As to pepper spray and asthma. Pepper spray is an inflammatory agent. Given asthma (which I nearly died from numerous times as a child, starting as early as before one year of age) is a constricting disorder which constricts breathing, it only makes sense that pepper spray would enhance that greatly.
Quote:

If a person is allergic to any of the ingredients in the pepper spray, has asthma, or has a pre-existing heart condition, then the effects of pepper spray may be more severe and in some cases may lead to death. Part of the reason pepper spray is so controversial is that there have been a number of reported deaths where pepper spray was involved. Though the use of pepper spray has never been identified as the sole cause of death in these cases, it has been listed several times as a contributing factor. http://home.howstuffworks.com/home-improvement/household-safety/securi
ty/pepper-spray3.htm
] The study of in-custody deaths concluded that pepper spray contributed to
death in two of the 63 cases, both involving people with asthma. http://www.securityandsafetysupply.com/news/news31.htm death of a Bronx ex-con who suffered a fatal asthma attack after cops pepper-sprayed him has been ruled a homicide - and now his family wants the officers locked up.

Prosecutors are considering filing charges against the NYPD officers who arrested Kemp Yarborough, 37, on March 8 while responding to reports of a street brawl, sources said Thursday.

Yarborough's family and lawyer say the cops ignored the dying man as he pleaded for his inhaler after he was hit with the noxious pepper-sprayed. http://articles.nydailynews.com/2011-07-28/news/29844285_1_pepper-spra
yed-asthma-attack-nypd-s-internal-affairs-bureau
from Wiki:
Quote:

For those with asthma, taking other drugs, or subject to restraining techniques which restrict the breathing passages, there is a risk of death. The Los Angeles Times has reported at least 61 deaths associated with police use of pepper spray since 1990 in the USA.[7] The American Civil Liberties Union (ACLU) documented 27 people in police custody who died after exposure to pepper spray in California since 1993.
Leaving asthma aside, it's just an unacceptable thing to do to people, as is waterboarding:
Quote:

The European Parliament Scientific and Technological Options Assessment (STOA) published in 1998 “An Appraisal of Technologies of Political Control”[6] with extensive information on pepper spray and tear gas. They write:

The effects of pepper spray are far more severe, including temporary blindness which lasts from 15–30 minutes, a burning sensation of the skin which lasts from 45 to 60 minutes, upper body spasms which force a person to bend forward and uncontrollable coughing making it difficult to breathe or speak for between 3 to 15 minutes.

The US Army concluded in a 1993 Aberdeen Proving Ground study that pepper spray could cause "[m]utagenic effects, carcinogenic effects, sensitization, cardiovascular and pulmonary toxicity, neurotoxicity, as well as possible human fatalities. There is a risk in using this product on a large and varied population".[10] However, the pepper spray was widely approved in the US despite the reservations of the US military scientists after it passed FBI tests in 1991. As of 1999, it was in use by more than 2000 public safety agencies.[11]

The head of the FBI's Less-Than-Lethal Weapons Program at the time of the 1991 study, Special Agent Thomas W. W. Ward, was fired by the FBI and was sentenced to two months in prison for receiving payments from a peppergas manufacturer while conducting and authoring the FBI study that eventually approved pepper spray for FBI use.[9][12][13] Prosecutors said that from December 1989 through 1990, Ward received about $5,000 a month for a total of $57,500, from Luckey Police Products, a Fort Lauderdale, Florida-based company that was a major producer and supplier of pepper spray. The payments were paid through a Florida company owned by Ward's wife.
.....
For individuals not previously exposed to OC effects, the general feelings after being sprayed can be best likened to being "set alight". The initial reaction should the spray be directed at the face, is the completely involuntary closing of the eyes (sometimes described as leading to a disconcerting sensation of the eyelids "bubbling and boiling" as the chemical acts on the skin), an instant sensation of the restriction of the airways and the general feeling of sudden and intense, searing pain about the face, nose and throat. Coughing almost always follows the initial spray.

Subsequent breaths through the nose or mouth leads to ingestion of the chemical, which feeds the feeling of choking. Police are trained to repeatedly instruct the target to "breathe normally" if they complain of difficulty. Wiki

Which of course the cop who sprayed that line of sitting protesters did, right?

CTS, yes, I skimmed through how the rest of the world treats pepper spray. What I found "amusing" (snark) was that even in places it's illegal and/or considered a chemical weapon, it's okay for cops. In fact, I didn't see ANY place where cops weren't free to use it. I'll leave it to your imagination what Frem would have to say about that, unless he pipes up himself...I think you can imagine.



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Wednesday, November 23, 2011 12:22 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Hello,

Breathe normally? Given the reported effects, that could very well be construed as mockery of the victim.

--Anthony

_______________________________________________

"In every war, the state enacts a tax of freedom upon the citizenry. The unspoken promise is that the tax shall be revoked at war's end. Endless war holds no such promise. Hence, Eternal War is Eternal Slavery." --Admiral Robert J. Henner


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Wednesday, November 23, 2011 1:08 PM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Made me smile. Apparently it's something to remind people to do, given we react to things without thinking...you know, like hyperventiating. Probably should be "TRY to breathe normally". Nonetheless, I'd like some kind of statistics on how many nice cops tell people they've just pepper sprayed to breathe normally...or shown any OTHER form of compassion for their suffering...



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Wednesday, November 23, 2011 1:20 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Hello,

From time to time I am tempted to apply for a law enforcement position. I am fairly certain that I could pass the physical examination if I spent a couple months in training for it. Walking to work four days a week (thanks to a change in my wife's employment situation) has already enhanced my fitness. The idea of helping people is appealing, as is the idea of having full access to a shooting range, free of charge, as part of my job.

But when I see these incidents of conflict, the casual cruelty displayed by so many, it makes me hesitate. I can imagine myself becoming a paraiah in a police force. I can see fellow officers complaining that my attitude is endangering them. And I can imagine the ever-present pressure to let go of personal convictions about right and wrong in favor of a more comfortable work environment.

And so I often come to the conclusion that I may not be fit for service after all.

But I often think I could do better than I see done, if given the chance.

--Anthony

_______________________________________________

"In every war, the state enacts a tax of freedom upon the citizenry. The unspoken promise is that the tax shall be revoked at war's end. Endless war holds no such promise. Hence, Eternal War is Eternal Slavery." --Admiral Robert J. Henner


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Wednesday, November 23, 2011 5:05 PM

FREMDFIRMA



That's why I work contract, Anthony - essentially I do the job we supposedly pay THEM for, but they're too busy acting like highwaymen or jackboots to freakin bother, with the noteable exception of the two officers who decided to use our tactics over in West Willow, and start working WITH the locals instead of treating them as enemies to be conquered.

As for the use of weapons unavailable to the public, I think that police should be subject to EVERY stupid petty little nitpick weapons law we are, cause were we to hold them to the same standards they hold us, the whole dynamic would change real damn quick, I assure you.

Again, this is essentially feudalism, no matter what frosting people try to cover that turd with, any time one class of folks has more rights than another, you're talking caste-society no matter what lies you use, or excuses you try to hide it behind.

As for weapons use, I PREFER not to pack anything at all on duty, ain't no damn need for it here, but since a couple younger dumber punks got stupid about the fact that some of their buddies got chased outta here or locked up, and one really drunk/stoned resident got into it with me when he decided to go hands-on with his wife right in front of me and I called him on it, I do carry one thing...

Although remember how it goes with me, IF I am to pull a "weapon" at all, it's always, always gonna be in a situation where I feel *lethal* force is justified, and I am not going to screw around or play games, imma END it, right then and there, preferably without substantial harm, even if that entails some personal risk, but if it comes to it - say they try to haul out a shooting iron, they won't be gettin back up any time soon, if ever.

It's a coil-spring extendable baton with striking tip, and in collapsed form very discrete as it looks like a small mag-light.
(and I keep it in a mag-light holster on my belt, thus it's not "concealed" but neither is it obvious what it is, to avoid any provacative aspect)
Problem with the rigid batons is that you need bulk, leverage and strength to use one and not being a steroid-suckin no-neck like most cops, well...
The coil spring version is no joke, folks - in some places they're illegal(1), cause even a puny little person like Wendy can mess you up REAL bad with one, you strike with the spring to cause maximum disablement with minimum damage, but if you are in-extremis, landing the tip will shatter any bone it hits up to and including the skull or femur, we're talkin pulverized here.

I mislike chem sprays, as even police issue will NOT remove me from the fight (having experience with that via off-duty cop stalking a girl and getting caught out by me) and in fact will enrage the hell out of me - there ARE folks it will not stop, people so wacked out or enraged they're beyond effect of it - plus there is the difficulty of landing a direct hit with the stuff...
In fact, more so than even a Taser, OC Spray is pretty much intended as a torture device against someone not actively resisting you, consider that the mere act of ducking at the right moment renders it all but useless and opens the user to being attacked with their hands full of a now-useless weapon ?

As for sap gloves, no matter WHAT they *say*, those things are intended for one purpose, and one purpose only - fucking people up(2), doing DAMAGE, you understand ?

Anyhows, that's all I got to say for the moment.

(1) - I notice, that the primary way these things become illegal in some locality is the realization that a small, feminine defender can stand off a larger male aggressor with them, that's the fastest route to a legal ban I've EVER seen.

(2) - Worth a mention cause one of my friends pointed it out, just as an aside.. "Dude, you've fucked more people up with MS Excel then you ever have with a crowbar" ..so the notion of "weapon" can be pretty broad some times.

PS. in Michigan, possession of an electroshock weapon is a FELONY, and only lately have they realized there's no exception under the law for police - which means every cop carrying one is committing a really blatant felony...
But as typical with a feudal-caste-system, they just ignore that, although the MI Supreme Court is supposed to rule on whether that means they have to let us peons have em too, when they get around to it, which is next to never.

Anyhows, outta time.

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

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Thursday, November 24, 2011 2:33 AM

CANTTAKESKY


Quote:

Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
Again, this is essentially feudalism, no matter what frosting people try to cover that turd with, any time one class of folks has more rights than another, you're talking caste-society no matter what lies you use, or excuses you try to hide it behind.

Yep. I REALLY like that idea of making the cops subject to the same gun laws. What a hoot that would be.

No double standards.

-----
Never be deceived that the rich will allow you to vote away their wealth. -- Lucy Parsons (1853-1942, labor activist and anarcho-communist)

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Thursday, November 24, 2011 3:06 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Pepper Spray alternative ?





"The world is a dangerous place. Not because of the people who are evil; but because of the people who don't do anything about it." - Albert Einstein

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Thursday, November 24, 2011 7:37 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Hello Niki,

I noticed some satirical images floating around that speak to the issue. I thought I'd share (if the links work.)





--Anthony

_______________________________________________

"In every war, the state enacts a tax of freedom upon the citizenry. The unspoken promise is that the tax shall be revoked at war's end. Endless war holds no such promise. Hence, Eternal War is Eternal Slavery." --Admiral Robert J. Henner


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Thursday, November 24, 2011 5:39 PM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Thank you, Anthony. It's pretty late, but you get the prize for the first guffaw of the day (honest, I haven't had one until just now!).



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Friday, November 25, 2011 3:36 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!



I protest the misuse of Megyn Kelly's image in the above satirical reply.



"The world is a dangerous place. Not because of the people who are evil; but because of the people who don't do anything about it." - Albert Einstein

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Friday, November 25, 2011 5:59 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


A new use for pepper spray:
Quote:

A woman shot pepper spray to keep shoppers from merchandise she wanted during a Black Friday sale, and 20 people suffered minor injuries, authorities said.

The incident occurred shortly after 10:20 p.m. Thursday in a crowded Los Angeles-area Walmart as shoppers hungry for deals were let inside the store.

Police said the suspect shot the pepper spray when the coverings over the items she wanted were removed.

"Somehow she was trying to use it to gain an upper hand," police Lt. Abel Parga told The Associated Press early Friday. http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/woman-pepper-sprays-black-friday-sh
oppers-15026711





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Friday, November 25, 2011 6:24 AM

FREMDFIRMA



Ah, someone else caught that, I didn't see this till I had already posted it in the Black Friday Thread, but again, it also applies here and to the Trickle-Down-Tyranny one...

Be interesting to note what the response/charges are, as we once again witness the hypocrisy of the boys in blue regarding us peons engaging in conduct they think is wholly appropriate for THEM.

-F

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Sunday, November 27, 2011 4:41 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Yup, right on point with the Tricle-Down-Tyranny. I don't assume it will be the last such incident of its kind. Sickening.



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Sunday, November 27, 2011 9:53 PM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht


So, the police are allowed to use pepper spray but the military isn't allowed to use it in war situations? That's kind of bizarre.

Anthony, what you choose to do is your choice in regard to whether to look at joining the police force. Some of it would probably have to do with how corrupt your local police are, how divergent your opinions are from the general public of which ever city in AZ you live in etc.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

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Monday, November 28, 2011 1:15 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:

Yup, right on point with the Tricle-Down-Tyranny. I don't assume it will be the last such incident of its kind. Sickening.



Really, what is sickening is how the Left fabricates words out of thin air, to define things which aren't even true.

It's like 'chicken hawk'. A 'chicken hawk' is a bird of prey, which hunts chickens. But in twisted, upside down land of Lefties, it means what ever the hell they want it to mean. Just ram two unassociated words together, and make up a definition which suits your political agenda, and voila ! You have a new addition to the Left wing dictionary.

Beyond juvenile.



"The world is a dangerous place. Not because of the people who are evil; but because of the people who don't do anything about it." - Albert Einstein

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Monday, November 28, 2011 6:29 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


To clarify: The term "chicken hawk" does not refer to birds who take chickens.
Quote:

Chickenhawk or Chicken Hawk is an unofficial designation for three species of North American hawks: the Cooper's Hawk, the Sharp-shinned Hawk and the Red-tailed Hawk. The term Chicken Hawk, however, is inappropriate. Although Cooper's and Sharp-shinned Hawks may attack other birds, chickens do not make up a significant part of their diet; Red-tailed Hawks have varied diets, and although they may opportunistically hunt free-range poultry, it is not a primary source of food.
Wiki

We have all three around here (especially red tails!)but the term is used to delineate Kestrels, which is doubly silly as they are a small falcon incapable of killing a chicken.

Colloquially, it is a political term used to denegrate someone who is hawkish on war but who avoided military service:
Quote:

Chickenhawk (also chicken hawk and chicken-hawk) is a political epithet used in the United States to criticize a politician, bureaucrat, or commentator who strongly supports a war or other military action, yet who actively avoided military service when of age.

The term is meant to indicate that the person in question is cowardly or hypocritical for personally avoiding combat in the past while advocating that others go to war in the present. Generally, the implication is that "chickenhawks" lack the experience, judgment, or moral standing to make decisions about going to war. The term is not applied to those who avoided military service without subsequently adopting a hawkish political outlook.

Wiki. It was first used on Dan Quayle, who used family connections to get into the National Guard, thereby avoiding the draft and possibility of going to 'Nam:

Question: what do you get when you combine a chicken with a hawk?
Answer: a Quayle

The right picked it up and it was used frequently to refer to Bill Clinton, and both parties have used it ever since.

It also refers to a pedophile who preys on young boys. Just FYI.



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Monday, November 28, 2011 6:35 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Pepper spray, tasers ("Don't tase me, bro!"), tear gas, choke holds... just less-lethal (in most cases) tools of tyranny.

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Monday, November 28, 2011 3:21 PM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht


I'd still rather see someone get pepper sprayed than get shot.

One of my folk, J, mentioned the woman pepper spraying other shoppers on Fri. its all over the news. She found that story particularly note worthy when I was there with her today.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

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Monday, November 28, 2011 3:55 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Hello,

I think everyone prefers to see someone pepper sprayed than shot. However, the choice is frequently a false one that ignores a plethora of possibilities.

For many law enforcement personnel, the presence of a weapon becomes an intellectual crutch.

--Anthony


_______________________________________________

"In every war, the state enacts a tax of freedom upon the citizenry. The unspoken promise is that the tax shall be revoked at war's end. Endless war holds no such promise. Hence, Eternal War is Eternal Slavery." --Admiral Robert J. Henner


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Monday, November 28, 2011 5:00 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:

Yup, right on point with the Trickle-Down-Tyranny. I don't assume it will be the last such incident of its kind. Sickening.



Really, what is sickening is how the Left fabricates words out of thin air, to define things which aren't even true.

Beyond juvenile.




LIke making up monikers such as "job creators" to describe the rich, when they've created no jobs? Yes, that is very much beyond juvenile.

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Monday, November 28, 2011 5:03 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Chickenhawk also accurately describes Rappy, who supports war, always, but refuses to ever serve his country in any way.

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Monday, November 28, 2011 7:20 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
Chickenhawk also accurately describes Rappy, who supports war, always, but refuses to ever serve his country in any way.



Hello,

For all we know, Raptor is the director of the Central Intelligence Agency's black bag division.

--Anthony


_______________________________________________

"In every war, the state enacts a tax of freedom upon the citizenry. The unspoken promise is that the tax shall be revoked at war's end. Endless war holds no such promise. Hence, Eternal War is Eternal Slavery." --Admiral Robert J. Henner


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Monday, November 28, 2011 7:31 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Anthony, that would actually explain some things, like how the Agency keeps screwing up so totally and getting things so very, very wrong.

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