Student fights to fly Flag by AnthonyT

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Hello,

I interpret freedom very broadly. I wish people had a lot more of it. Even with things that piss me off.

One of the coolest things I ever saw was at Jackson Memorial Hospital, where I once worked in their Security department. There was a room at the ground floor of the Hospital. It had a bunch of chairs, a podium, and a platform at the back. It was a non-denominational Church, and literally every kind of religion was allowed to use it for services. People could put little portable religious icons on the platform, according to the needs of the service. They were removed when service was done.

People suffer in the hospital. People die there. People are born there. People are cured there.

Everyone had a place to go to interface with whatever they believed in, whether they were happy, sad, afraid, or whatever. All of the people were able to come to this room and reach out to the universe and to themselves. All kinds of people used it.

It was magic.

And it proved, to me, that we don't have to live the way we do. We can have more room for other people, other beliefs. We can have this room, not by excluding and segregating, but by including. We can all be free, together. There is enough freedom to go around, if we don't hog it all for ourselves.

--Anthony

_______________________________________________

"In every war, the state enacts a tax of freedom upon the citizenry. The unspoken promise is that the tax shall be revoked at war's end. Endless war holds no such promise. Hence, Eternal War is Eternal Slavery." --Admiral Robert J. Henner

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Thursday, December 1, 2011 3:23 PM

There's some reasonable man recognition of fallout in my book. If you put a confederate flag in your room, there's never going to be any fallout over that, even if you're a white guy. If you fly a nazi flag at a football stadium, there will be chaos. Worse yet, Futbol. I mean, these guys freak because someone has a banner form the other team.

That's what a ship is, you know - it's not just a keel and a hull and a deck and sails, that's what a ship needs.

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Thursday, December 1, 2011 3:38 PM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

"If you fly a nazi flag at a football stadium, there will be chaos."

Hello,

Yes, well, that is the society we have created. But if we grew up in a place where people routinely said anything they wanted, or displayed any symbology they wanted, or dressed however pleased them, it would not shock our delicate sensibilities so much. If authority was used to preserve the right to free expression instead of stamping it out, we would not explode as we do. If we were not trained to identify so strongly with 'our' groups/nations/teams from the time we were old enough to understand speech, then we would not feel the blazing urge to wage war over a soccer game. I read people saying, "Well, if he's gonna fly a hated flag, then he's gonna get beat up a lot." And I am aghast. In a better world, we would be conditioned to freedom, such that other people's actions would not trouble us so much. Which is obviously not the conditioning we currently have from our society.

In my opinion.

--Anthony

_______________________________________________

"In every war, the state enacts a tax of freedom upon the citizenry. The unspoken promise is that the tax shall be revoked at war's end. Endless war holds no such promise. Hence, Eternal War is Eternal Slavery." --Admiral Robert J. Henner

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Thursday, December 1, 2011 4:01 PM

DALEK!

Perhaps not physical violence but freedom of speech does mean that if someone is stupid enough to fly a hateful flag or start with hateful speech others are allowed to shout them down.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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Thursday, December 1, 2011 4:15 PM

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)

Quote:

Again, free expression doesn't cease when folk start being offended by it.
And on THAT point I will firmly disagree with you, Mikey - barring actual HARM, ones right to free expression *IS*, IMHO, absolute.

Thing is, Frem (and Anthony), I don't necessarily disagree with you on this. You aren't disagreeing with ME, by the way - you're disagreeing with established precedent.

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Thursday, December 1, 2011 4:19 PM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Quote:
Originally posted by m52nickerson:
Perhaps not physical violence but freedom of speech does mean that if someone is stupid enough to fly a hateful flag or start with hateful speech others are allowed to shout them down.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

Hello,

Yes, use your own competing words. Put up competing symbology. Make competing messages. Have a protest with a brass band that sings about your alternative. Include yourself in Freedom, do not Exclude others from Freedom.

--Anthony

_______________________________________________

"In every war, the state enacts a tax of freedom upon the citizenry. The unspoken promise is that the tax shall be revoked at war's end. Endless war holds no such promise. Hence, Eternal War is Eternal Slavery." --Admiral Robert J. Henner

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Thursday, December 1, 2011 4:20 PM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
Quote:

Again, free expression doesn't cease when folk start being offended by it.
And on THAT point I will firmly disagree with you, Mikey - barring actual HARM, ones right to free expression *IS*, IMHO, absolute.

Thing is, Frem (and Anthony), I don't necessarily disagree with you no this. You aren't disagreeing with ME, by the way - you're disagreeing with established precedent.

Hello,

Precedent has black people in irons.

I want a better world.

--Anthony

_______________________________________________

"In every war, the state enacts a tax of freedom upon the citizenry. The unspoken promise is that the tax shall be revoked at war's end. Endless war holds no such promise. Hence, Eternal War is Eternal Slavery." --Admiral Robert J. Henner

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Thursday, December 1, 2011 4:21 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by Jongsstraw:

I think that would be a great time for the President to deliver the Conferderate flag to the battlefield, make a speech, and then bury the damn thing for good...... (like they did in OL's Gettysburg episode).

Like the naacp tried to 'retire' the N word ?

Quite frankly, if any President did this, it'd be seen as silly. And if THIS President did it, heh.... there would be trouble. BIG trouble. Needless trouble.

And Kwickie ?

The National Socialist German Workers' Party

Me saying it doesn't make it true, but it being true, makes it true, and that's why I say it.

Dumbass.

"The world is a dangerous place. Not because of the people who are evil; but because of the people who don't do anything about it." - Albert Einstein

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Thursday, December 1, 2011 4:55 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:

And Kwickie ?

The National Socialist German Workers' Party

Me saying it doesn't make it true, but it being true, makes it true, and that's why I say it.

Oh, they called themselves whatever they thought would appeal to people. Kind of like "Republicans", who have no interest at all in a republic.

You saying a thing is true doesn't make it so. Kind of like you saying "that's not even debatable" doesn't make it so.

Quote:
The party was founded out of the current of the far-right racist völkisch German nationalist movement and the violent anti-communist Freikorps paramilitary culture that fought against the uprisings of communist revolutionaries in post-World War I Germany. The party was created by Anton Drexler as a means to draw workers away from communism and into völkisch nationalism.

Dumb-ass.

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Friday, December 2, 2011 2:41 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:
"If you fly a nazi flag at a football stadium, there will be chaos."

Hello,

Yes, well, that is the society we have created. But if we grew up in a place where people routinely said anything they wanted, or displayed any symbology they wanted, or dressed however pleased them, it would not shock our delicate sensibilities so much. If authority was used to preserve the right to free expression instead of stamping it out, we would not explode as we do. If we were not trained to identify so strongly with 'our' groups/nations/teams from the time we were old enough to understand speech, then we would not feel the blazing urge to wage war over a soccer game. I read people saying, "Well, if he's gonna fly a hated flag, then he's gonna get beat up a lot." And I am aghast. In a better world, we would be conditioned to freedom, such that other people's actions would not trouble us so much. Which is obviously not the conditioning we currently have from our society.

In my opinion.

--Anthony

Anthony,

Rarely do you post anything I disagree with, but sometimes it happens.

Quote:
If authority was used to preserve the right to free expression instead of stamping it out, we would not explode as we do.

Authority cannot possibly defend freedom. Authority is the suppression of freedom.

Freedom includes the freedom to be offended as well as offensive. There will always be something that can set people off, and there will be people to do it intentionally.

This is not one of those times. This student actually means what he says, and his statement is not over the top. A lot of people fly confederate flags, even around here, which is deep in Yankee country. And yes, I've seen black people with confederate flags before, this isn't new.

He also probably knows that he can get media attention, by being offensive, but if nothing were offensive, then perhaps nothing would get attention.

Overall, I'd rather have conflict than complacency. The world is far freer when people disagree, and when they start to get along too well, there's a dulling of the senses that allows power to sneak up and take hold like a cancer, and the silence of the dissent to unithought becomes deafening.

I realize this point is a subtlety often lost on the spectrum of kill or be killed that FFF:RWED leads to.

That's what a ship is, you know - it's not just a keel and a hull and a deck and sails, that's what a ship needs.

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Friday, December 2, 2011 2:52 AM

DALEK!

Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:
Hello,

Yes, use your own competing words. Put up competing symbology. Make competing messages. Have a protest with a brass band that sings about your alternative. Include yourself in Freedom, do not Exclude others from Freedom.

Absolutly, but I also believe that some point society as a whole has a right to tell someone that is being hateful and offending everyone else to shut up and go away. Those are the times when a persons freedom of speech runs into others right to live in peace.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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Friday, December 2, 2011 3:47 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
Seems your biggest problem with this student is that he hasn't been beaten into a coma, shot, or pepper sprayed yet. Maybe the campus police will yet do you proud, though. ;)

Once again, since you don't think this student has rights, that'd be you.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Friday, December 2, 2011 5:05 AM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

"Overall, I'd rather have conflict than complacency. The world is far freer when people disagree, and when they start to get along too well, there's a dulling of the senses that allows power to sneak up and take hold like a cancer, and the silence of the dissent to unithought becomes deafening."

Hello,

This is a false frame.

Where do I advocate that everyone agree? I merely suggest that hearing a disagreeable thought should not move us to violence. There's room for conflict that doesn't become violent, (with violence including feeling compelled to invoke the violence of the state to enforce your preferences of speech or expression.)

Having Peace includes having Peaceful disagreements, with Free expression on all sides, and I am in favor of that.

I'll also say this: Power has already snuck up and taken hold like a cancer. It did this in an environment of hyperconflict. Things like Mccarthy don't happen because everyone is complacent. They happen when people are wound up and encouraged to intolerance.

When someone flies a hated flag, it should become a point of philosophical debate- with people arguing the merits and meaning of the act. Perhaps people will protest the act with their own counter-displays.

The idea of using Force to stop them should never even seem rational

"Authority cannot possibly defend freedom."

Freedom only exists where it is defended. Some people will invariably need to lean on others to provide that defense. That's why I believe in law, and that's what I think laws are for. You may disagree. You would not be alone.

--Anthony

_______________________________________________

"In every war, the state enacts a tax of freedom upon the citizenry. The unspoken promise is that the tax shall be revoked at war's end. Endless war holds no such promise. Hence, Eternal War is Eternal Slavery." --Admiral Robert J. Henner

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Friday, December 2, 2011 9:20 AM

FREMDFIRMA

Quote:
Originally posted by m52nickerson:
Absolutly, but I also believe that some point society as a whole has a right to tell someone that is being hateful and offending everyone else to shut up and go away.

I do not, period - on that I will not move.

Case in point, when I first started taking on those hellcamps, and making noise about it, EVERYONE wanted me to shut the fuck up, as at the time they were regarded as naught more than myth, urban legend, much in the same fashion as abuse within the Catholic Church was, and them people didn't shut the hell up neither.

Sometimes you gotta take a stand even when *everyone* else seems opposed.

And that is why the First Amendment EXISTS.
To assure ones RIGHT to do so.

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

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Friday, December 2, 2011 11:24 AM

DALEK!

Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
I do not, period - on that I will not move.

Case in point, when I first started taking on those hellcamps, and making noise about it, EVERYONE wanted me to shut the fuck up, as at the time they were regarded as naught more than myth, urban legend, much in the same fashion as abuse within the Catholic Church was, and them people didn't shut the hell up neither.

Sometimes you gotta take a stand even when *everyone* else seems opposed.

And that is why the First Amendment EXISTS.
To assure ones RIGHT to do so.

...but you are not being hateful or offending, nor do I think everyone wanted you to shut up.

There is a difference between someone going around and speaking out about thing that are going on and a person going around shouting hateful things for no good reason.

The other thing to remember is that how you express something is sometimes more important that what you are expressing.

Those people that continued to speak up against the Catholic Church and did so in a way that made it seem they wanted justice were far more affective then those who yelled and screamed looked like they were just out for blood.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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Friday, December 2, 2011 12:11 PM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Hello,

Why? Why should anyone think it is important for anyone else to shut up? I often wish Pirate would shut up, but I don't think it's actually important for him to do so. I wish the Westboro people would shut up... but it's not important.

No, even if the wide world wants someone to shut up, it's still not important for them to shut up. 7 Billion people could all agree that the Westboro hateful speech is awful, but why would it be important for them to be shut up?

What sickness is in us that we can't tolerate speech? Maybe we should be addressing that sickness, and not the speech.

--Anthony

_______________________________________________

"In every war, the state enacts a tax of freedom upon the citizenry. The unspoken promise is that the tax shall be revoked at war's end. Endless war holds no such promise. Hence, Eternal War is Eternal Slavery." --Admiral Robert J. Henner

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Friday, December 2, 2011 12:23 PM

Anthony,

The ultimate peace society is as bad as the ultimate war society in the degree to which it lends authority to tyrants. In times of peace we've seen the growth of things like NAFTA, the EU, WTO, G8, organizations that use debt to enslave govts. and make them accept radical policies to create de facto slave labor populations, prevent the population from breeding, in doctrinate children in dogmatic school curriculum. So, sure, this stuff can happen in extreme conflict, but also in extreme peace. The US has been in extreme peace for some time now. No one has invaded us. Europe has since WWII, and yet the effect of the EU of the population of Eastern Europe has been more devastating than the genocides of Nazi Germany.

Also, if you do not condone using force to stop the offenders, which I agree with, but why would you then endorse the concept of authority, since it has always and will always do precisely that?

I think authority as a concept is antithetical to the concept of freedom and the two can never be reconciled.

That's what a ship is, you know - it's not just a keel and a hull and a deck and sails, that's what a ship needs.

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Friday, December 2, 2011 12:24 PM

DALEK!

Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:
Hello,

Why? Why should anyone think it is important for anyone else to shut up? I often wish Pirate would shut up, but I don't think it's actually important for him to do so. I wish the Westboro people would shut up... but it's not important.

No, even if the wide world wants someone to shut up, it's still not important for them to shut up. 7 Billion people could all agree that the Westboro hateful speech is awful, but why would it be important for them to be shut up?

What sickness is in us that we can't tolerate speech? Maybe we should be addressing that sickness, and not the speech.

It is not some much the speech, it's the hate and the way it is presented. I think if you had someone you loved die and had the folks from Westborough show up at the funeral you would think it was important. At some point speech can become a form of harassment.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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Friday, December 2, 2011 12:26 PM

DALEK!

Quote:
Originally posted by dreamtrove:
I think authority as a concept is antithetical to the concept of freedom and the two can never be reconciled.

Then you can never have freedom, because will always have an authority. Even if you are it.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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Friday, December 2, 2011 12:26 PM

Mike,

I think the Nazis were actually quite sincere about socialism. They put a lot of effort into it. They had absolute power, they could have just ignored it.

Also, in general, and including 1933 Germany, socialism is not popular with the masses. That's why it always comes to power through revolution, the people just aren't going to consistently vote for it, even if they vote for it at all.

Not quite sure what it's doing in the discussion, or what it has to do with Lee and his battleflag, but I had to shoot this skeet.

That's what a ship is, you know - it's not just a keel and a hull and a deck and sails, that's what a ship needs.

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Friday, December 2, 2011 12:28 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by m52nickerson:

Then you can never have freedom, because will always have an authority. Even if you at it.

I have no idea what this means

That's what a ship is, you know - it's not just a keel and a hull and a deck and sails, that's what a ship needs.

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Friday, December 2, 2011 12:35 PM

DALEK!

Quote:
Originally posted by dreamtrove:
Quote:
Originally posted by m52nickerson:

Then you can never have freedom, because will always have an authority. Even if you at it.

I have no idea what this means

That's what a ship is, you know - it's not just a keel and a hull and a deck and sails, that's what a ship needs.

That should have been "Even if you are it." You caught me in an edit.

No matter what you do there is always going to be some type of authority. Even if that authority is you protecting your belongings and land from others taking it. If society lacks a governmental authority it will be ruled by those with the most power. So there will always be an authority.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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Friday, December 2, 2011 1:34 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Geezer:
Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
Seems your biggest problem with this student is that he hasn't been beaten into a coma, shot, or pepper sprayed yet. Maybe the campus police will yet do you proud, though. ;)

Once again, since you don't think this student has rights, that'd be you.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

You keep saying it, but that still doesn't make it true. Of course this student has rights. What he DOESN'T have is UNFETTERED rights to say and do anything he pleases anywhere he wants anytime he feels like it.

You know this already, or you're even dumber than you act. In fact, you wholeheartedly agree with this. You have been a cheerleader when your government assassinates U.S. citizens who exercise their free speech rights, so it's obvious to everyone here how you feel about free speech.

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Friday, December 2, 2011 1:45 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by dreamtrove:
Mike,

I think the Nazis were actually quite sincere about socialism. They put a lot of effort into it. They had absolute power, they could have just ignored it.

Also, in general, and including 1933 Germany, socialism is not popular with the masses. That's why it always comes to power through revolution, the people just aren't going to consistently vote for it, even if they vote for it at all.

Not quite sure what it's doing in the discussion, or what it has to do with Lee and his battleflag, but I had to shoot this skeet.

That's what a ship is, you know - it's not just a keel and a hull and a deck and sails, that's what a ship needs.

You're contradicting yourself, DT, and you're saying things that are, in your own words, "Hero levels of stupid".

Socialism has proven to be QUITE popular with the masses. That's why there are socialist revolutions - because the masses want it, and they're aren't allowed to vote for it.

But then you say that it "always" comes to power through revolutions. I don't recall there being a violent revolution in Germany which brought the Nazis to power. There were elections, and there was subterfuge, but no open revolution. There were elections, and the Nazis were voted into power, which by your definitions proves that they weren't socialists, since there was no revolution and the people voted for them, both of which contradict your assertion that the Nazis were actually socialists.

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Friday, December 2, 2011 1:54 PM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Hello,

I agree with Nick when he says that there will always be an authority, even if you are it. I understand what he means. And of course there can never be absolute freedom. Metaphor --> But you can be damned cold without being at absolute zero. We could certainly stand to be a lot colder. <-- Metaphor

"So, sure, this stuff can happen in extreme conflict, but also in extreme peace"

Thus complacency and the acts of evil men have nothing to do with either state. Hence I prefer more peace whenever possible. Certainly in regards to responses to speech. My responses to harm would be very different.

"I think if you had someone you loved die and had the folks from Westborough show up at the funeral you would think it was important. At some point speech can become a form of harassment."

If someone murdered my son, I might be tempted to murder them in retaliation. However, I wouldn't choose to build a society around the concept of vengeance. Would I feel bad if someone said something nasty about my loved ones? Obviously. Do I think violence is an appropriate response? No. And if, in my grief, I lose perspective- then I hope I have enough friends to pull me back from bad choices.

Certainly I'd never choose to build a society that endorses violence when I feel insulted. Such a society would be sick, and anyone who would codify such practices has sickness in them. Such a state of being should not be our goal.

In my opinion.

--Anthony

_______________________________________________

"In every war, the state enacts a tax of freedom upon the citizenry. The unspoken promise is that the tax shall be revoked at war's end. Endless war holds no such promise. Hence, Eternal War is Eternal Slavery." --Admiral Robert J. Henner

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Friday, December 2, 2011 2:41 PM

MAGONSDAUGHTER

Where did flag flying ever do any good? People who fly flags have one thing in common, they are all jerks. It's about false pride and a distorted sense of belonging.

I say ban flags and the world would be a better place. Might be confusing at the Olympics....

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Friday, December 2, 2011 3:32 PM

DALEK!

Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:

If someone murdered my son, I might be tempted to murder them in retaliation. However, I wouldn't choose to build a society around the concept of vengeance. Would I feel bad if someone said something nasty about my loved ones? Obviously. Do I think violence is an appropriate response? No. And if, in my grief, I lose perspective- then I hope I have enough friends to pull me back from bad choices.

Certainly I'd never choose to build a society that endorses violence when I feel insulted. Such a society would be sick, and anyone who would codify such practices has sickness in them. Such a state of being should not be our goal.

It defiantly should not be a goal, but it is reality. You touched on it when talking about how you might lose perspective and look for revenge. Almost everyone has a breaking point.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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Friday, December 2, 2011 3:40 PM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

"Almost everyone has a breaking point. "

Hello,

This is true, and in a society which is intolerant, that breaking point is so much easier to reach.

In my opinion.

--Anthony

_______________________________________________

"In every war, the state enacts a tax of freedom upon the citizenry. The unspoken promise is that the tax shall be revoked at war's end. Endless war holds no such promise. Hence, Eternal War is Eternal Slavery." --Admiral Robert J. Henner

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Friday, December 2, 2011 3:47 PM

Mike,

Consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds.

But I don't think I am. I think I said that socialism was not popular. That's why it wasn't elected. A revolution doesn't happen because the overwhelming portion of the public supports it, but because the revolutionaries have guns, and generally because no one is defending the govt, but just because they don't like the current govt. doesn't mean they like the revolution. I mean, I didn't like Bush, and Osama bin Laden decided he wanted to support some radical jihadists to overthrow him, one chucked a hand grenade at him, you didn't see me saying "oh yeah, this is a great idea."

If what you said were true, there would be socialist regimes elected into power, and it just doesn't happen. Technically, the Sandinistas were elected in 1984, but they didn't have a majority, the majority party boycotted the election. But, sure, in latin america sometimes socialists get elected, but if it's a real socialist state, it only gets elected once. Most places, socialists get like 1% or 2%, for the very obvious reason. It's the worst form of govt. ever devised period.

Nazi Germany
USSR
Mao's People's Republic
North Korea
The VC
Khmer Rouge

Shall I go across the entire planet? I can spend a whole day on Africa alone.

It's not some stick in the mud idiocy that causes people to reject socialism, it's common sense. And history.

Oh, and no, as we've been through before, they didn't win the election. Hindenberg won the election. Hitler seized power in the Night of Long Knives, which was a revolution, armed rebellion.

That's what a ship is, you know - it's not just a keel and a hull and a deck and sails, that's what a ship needs.

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Friday, December 2, 2011 3:49 PM

Anthony,

I don't believe that more peace will bring us more freedom. In fact, I am certain that it will bring us less.

ETA: Oh, and when I said conflict, I didn't mean military conflict. I meant conflict, as in, student puts up a flag, and someone else is offended by it.

That's what a ship is, you know - it's not just a keel and a hull and a deck and sails, that's what a ship needs.

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Friday, December 2, 2011 3:56 PM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Hello,

I endorse the right to be offended. Just not to respond to the offense with force. If that's the extent of your 'conflict' then great. We have a peaceful environment.

--Anthony

_______________________________________________

"In every war, the state enacts a tax of freedom upon the citizenry. The unspoken promise is that the tax shall be revoked at war's end. Endless war holds no such promise. Hence, Eternal War is Eternal Slavery." --Admiral Robert J. Henner

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Friday, December 2, 2011 4:32 PM

Ah, yes.

I see in the exchange that I fear the settling of the dust here more than you do.

That's what a ship is, you know - it's not just a keel and a hull and a deck and sails, that's what a ship needs.

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Friday, December 2, 2011 4:34 PM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Quote:
Originally posted by dreamtrove:
Ah, yes.

I see in the exchange that I fear the settling of the dust here more than you do.

That's what a ship is, you know - it's not just a keel and a hull and a deck and sails, that's what a ship needs.

Hello,

That seems to be the case. I'm not sure I perceive the same danger that you do.

--Anthony

_______________________________________________

"In every war, the state enacts a tax of freedom upon the citizenry. The unspoken promise is that the tax shall be revoked at war's end. Endless war holds no such promise. Hence, Eternal War is Eternal Slavery." --Admiral Robert J. Henner

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Friday, December 2, 2011 5:31 PM

That's why you need me around. Also why I need Frem.

And John. Even when the threat John sees isn't real, 'cause, y'know, sometimes it is, and no one else saw it.

That's what a ship is, you know - it's not just a keel and a hull and a deck and sails, that's what a ship needs.

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Friday, December 2, 2011 7:31 PM

Any updates on this story? He said he'd get a lawyer and sue; I'm rather surprised the ACLU hasn't stepped up to the plate on his behalf. After all, they defend free speech more often than anyone, which is why they are so universally hated and reviled by the right.

I'd be interested to see how the courts shake this one out.

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Friday, December 2, 2011 10:22 PM

MAGONSDAUGHTER

Quote:
Originally posted by dreamtrove:
Mike,

Consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds.

But I don't think I am. I think I said that socialism was not popular. That's why it wasn't elected. A revolution doesn't happen because the overwhelming portion of the public supports it, but because the revolutionaries have guns, and generally because no one is defending the govt, but just because they don't like the current govt. doesn't mean they like the revolution. I mean, I didn't like Bush, and Osama bin Laden decided he wanted to support some radical jihadists to overthrow him, one chucked a hand grenade at him, you didn't see me saying "oh yeah, this is a great idea."

If what you said were true, there would be socialist regimes elected into power, and it just doesn't happen. Technically, the Sandinistas were elected in 1984, but they didn't have a majority, the majority party boycotted the election. But, sure, in latin america sometimes socialists get elected, but if it's a real socialist state, it only gets elected once. Most places, socialists get like 1% or 2%, for the very obvious reason. It's the worst form of govt. ever devised period.

Nazi Germany
USSR
Mao's People's Republic
North Korea
The VC
Khmer Rouge

Shall I go across the entire planet? I can spend a whole day on Africa alone.

It's not some stick in the mud idiocy that causes people to reject socialism, it's common sense. And history.

Oh, and no, as we've been through before, they didn't win the election. Hindenberg won the election. Hitler seized power in the Night of Long Knives, which was a revolution, armed rebellion.

Oh please - not this shit again.

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Saturday, December 3, 2011 2:52 AM

Magon

Great argument you got there.

Sorry, does it bother you that your ideology seems to end in mass murder with appalling regularity? Apparently not. It only seems to bug you that someone mentions it. Prefer to sweep that under the rug, just like socialists have been doing for a century.

Let's check back and see how they're doing a century on, maybe they've gotten better:

Slobodan Milosevic's Yugoslav Socialists
Kabila's DRC war, oh, and look, he had another one
Ethopia's Chairman Mao program, and associate famine, oh, that's still going on

Surely there are some that aren't committing genocide. China, they have slavery, and they just invaded bhutan, nepal and taiwan, and india, and burma, and thailand, and pakistan. Oh, we know how to invade everyone too, they should come join chairman obama.

And the N.K. Yes, they're not committing genocide. I guess some socialist regimes are all right.

This is: I'm not a fan of the great global capitalist empire, but you guys have the suckiest alternative I've ever seen. "Let's not move forward into the 21st c. with a freer society, lets turn back the clock to a less free one that caused the Russian Civil War, and the holodomar, and WWII, and the holocaust, and tibet, korea, and vietnam, and the cultural revolution, and the iran-iraq war.

Let's just not.

That's what a ship is, you know - it's not just a keel and a hull and a deck and sails, that's what a ship needs.

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Saturday, December 3, 2011 4:23 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
Any updates on this story? He said he'd get a lawyer and sue; I'm rather surprised the ACLU hasn't stepped up to the plate on his behalf. After all, they defend free speech more often than anyone, which is why they are so universally hated and reviled by the right.

They're also sort'a picky over which civil liberties they choose to defend. Try getting them to sign on to a pro-Second Amendment case.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Saturday, December 3, 2011 4:34 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Geezer:
Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
Any updates on this story? He said he'd get a lawyer and sue; I'm rather surprised the ACLU hasn't stepped up to the plate on his behalf. After all, they defend free speech more often than anyone, which is why they are so universally hated and reviled by the right.

They're also sort'a picky over which civil liberties they choose to defend. Try getting them to sign on to a pro-Second Amendment case.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

Done.

http://articles.sun-sentinel.com/2010-07-15/news/fl-aclu-sues-for-seiz
ed-weapons-20100715_1_aclu-petitions-court-guns-sheriff

You were saying?

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Saturday, December 3, 2011 6:54 AM

I think it makes sense for libertarians to support the ACLU. Yes, they generally favor a liberal bias, but that makes your case stronger if you supported them when they stood up for the rights of gay crack deals to get welfare, then they're more likely to support you, because they know you did it on principle rather than partisanship.

That's what a ship is, you know - it's not just a keel and a hull and a deck and sails, that's what a ship needs.

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Sunday, December 4, 2011 9:49 PM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht

I wish the Westboro people would shut up, they're hideous and mean and ugly and I can't imagine anyone _not finding them offensive. I understand that they have the right to protest, its their right, but I secretly, secretly being the opperative word, well maybe not so secretly, smiled at those guys in that town who made it ... inconvenient for them. It isn't right but I still kind of liked it.

If a West Point student flew a Taliban flag and, after being asked about it, continued to do so I'm sure they'd find some sneaky way to send said student on their way to another school, even if it wasn't explicitly "because" of the flag. I'm a fan of bending rules I don't like, I'm not going to pretend I'm not, lets just be honest. Of course I don't do it unless I perceive it to be necessary. So they'd be like me and bend some rules to send said student on, not saying that it was the flag. Then again its West Point, they could get away with honesty about it.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

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Sunday, December 4, 2011 9:57 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

nevermind

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Monday, December 5, 2011 3:33 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
You were saying?

Well, that's one.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Monday, December 5, 2011 4:35 AM

Wow, someone conceded a point a RWED!
Begrudgingly, but bring out the brass band ;)

That's what a ship is, you know - it's not just a keel and a hull and a deck and sails, that's what a ship needs.

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Monday, December 5, 2011 2:02 PM