The origins of the gimmie-gimmie mentaltiy ? The entitlement mindset. by AURaptor

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

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Sig,
Your irrational hatred towards me has (again) clouded your view of the topic at hand.
I invite you to step back and offer up any opinions you may have of this welfare queen broodmare.
This nonsensical sniping at me, merely because I posted the story, is beyond tedious.

Rappy, I don't hate you. I merely hope that someday you will learn how to be a real boy. Instead of... yanno... a puppet.

As for my "solution", just OOC what do YOU suppose I would suggest, and why do you suppose I might suggest it?

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Saturday, December 3, 2011 4:24 PM

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

"Hey, I done mentioned the dads twice."

I've noticed from time to time posts before mine showing up only long after I post - not sure how that happens, but no intentional ignoring occurred.

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Saturday, December 3, 2011 6:46 PM

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM: Rappy, I don't hate you. I merely hope that someday you will learn how to be a real boy. Instead of... yanno... a puppet.

As for my "solution", just OOC what do YOU suppose I would suggest, and why do you suppose I might suggest it?

I assure you, I'm more real and more man than you could possibly imagine. ( in best Obi-Wan Kenobi voice )

Seriously, you're attempted belittling of me via my " puppet " views is precisely what I'm talking about. Apparently you can't comprehend anyone with my views, so you ridicule and mock them. And me. Thus, you hate me. I get it.

"The world is a dangerous place. Not because of the people who are evil; but because of the people who don't do anything about it." - Albert Einstein

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Saturday, December 3, 2011 7:11 PM

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)

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Originally posted by AURaptor:
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Originally posted by SignyM: Rappy, I don't hate you. I merely hope that someday you will learn how to be a real boy. Instead of... yanno... a puppet.

As for my "solution", just OOC what do YOU suppose I would suggest, and why do you suppose I might suggest it?

I assure you, I'm more real and more man than you could possibly imagine. ( in best Obi-Wan Kenobi voice )

Seriously, you're attempted belittling of me via my " puppet " views is precisely what I'm talking about. Apparently you can't comprehend anyone with my views, so you ridicule and mock them. And me. Thus, you hate me. I get it.

Interesting. I think Rappy just inadvertently admitted why he hates us so much.

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Saturday, December 3, 2011 7:42 PM

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

I got stalled out on the first line.

Does he think we could imagine him as Obi-Wan? Really? Or does he think that if he posts he's using his 'best Obi-Wan Kenobi voice' well give his post credit?

I really don't understand the point of his post. It's like there's a major disconnect between reality and whatever is in his head.

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Saturday, December 3, 2011 7:59 PM

Oops, wrong thread

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Saturday, December 3, 2011 8:03 PM

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Originally posted by 1kiki:
I got stalled out on the first line.

Does he think we could imagine him as Obi-Wan? Really? Or does he think that if he posts he's using his 'best Obi-Wan Kenobi voice' well give his post credit?

I really don't understand the point of his post. It's like there's a major disconnect between reality and whatever is in his head.

He seems to be trying to use the Jedi mind trick to convince us all that he's a man. Seems like he's trying to convince himself, too.

He's claiming that because Signy can't fathom Rappy's beliefs, she has to hate him. It's a tacit admission that since he can't understand where we're all coming from, and can't relate to us, he has a pathological NEED to hate us all.

It explains where much of his xenophobia comes from, doesn't it? That absolute ironclad NEED to hate anything he can't immediately understand and empathize with?

As you've pointed out, the more he posts, the more Rappy reveals about his true nature.

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Saturday, December 3, 2011 10:30 PM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
Seriously, you're attempted belittling of me via my " puppet " views is precisely what I'm talking about. Apparently you can't comprehend anyone with my views, so you ridicule and mock them. And me. Thus, you hate me. I get it.

No, rappy, I don't mock you for your "views", I mock your views because they are... even on cursory examination... nearly 100% fact-free, self-contradictory, and utterly predictable. I can predict what "you" are going to say by listening to Limbaugh and any number of right-wing entertainers, and you will repeat what they say verbatim, without even once ever attempting to either validate what they say or check it for internal consistency.

In other words, you are a puppet.

Let me give you a few examples from the past:

Not more than two months before the economy went over a precipice, you insisted (insisted, I tell ya!

) that the economy was "on fire!" We tried to tell you, we really did, but you would have none of our "left wing" "facts".

You insisted for years and years that Saddam had viable weapons of mass destruction deployed east, north, south somewhat of Baghdad... eventually you backed that down to "had" WMD ... old, degraded but, hell, certainly worth the 4 trillion we spent on destabilizing Iraq, right? Right?

In your very last thread, you brayed about "freedom" but then advocated forced sterilization.

You talk about the freedom to be greedy and fierce and rapacious as you want to be, but balk when anyone else claims the same freedom... you call that the "gimme-gimme" mentality. As if you don't practice it yourself!

I could go on, but really, it would be tedious and I don't want to spend my whole evening typing!

Meanwhile, have you figured out what I would advocate, and why? I would like you to at least take a stab at what you THINK I would say. I have a very good bead on you... I just wonder if your understanding of me is equal to my understanding of you.

So, swing away. Have at it. Construct what you think my response is.

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Saturday, December 3, 2011 10:43 PM

I see that my hope that no one was on at 3:40AM was foolish. Surely there's a better way to spend time, like sleeping.

That's what a ship is, you know - it's not just a keel and a hull and a deck and sails, that's what a ship needs.

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Saturday, December 3, 2011 11:00 PM

MAGONSDAUGHTER

I've just found something that is working for me. It is a b complex with some other destress herbs, including passioflora and lemonbalm. My sleeplessness is stress at the moment, mostly work but some other things. This cocktail seems to be helping.

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Sunday, December 4, 2011 4:40 AM

America loves a winner!

Sig - my views aren't in the least 'fact free', but based in the writings of the US Constitution. Try giving it a read, sometime.

As for my views and the similarity to Rush ( or any other on-air conservative ), you have it completely backwards. They're not popular because so many folks " buy " into what they're saying, but because so many already FEEL that way to begin with, that their points of view strike a chord w/ the public. Claims of 'puppets', 'mind numbed robots ', etc... have been raised since Rush was first on the air. But his critics have it 180degrees backwards. I was already thinking this stuff, before Rush.

I'm pretty sure it was well before the economy crashed that I made that comment about it being on 'fire'. And even if the comment was a bit of hyperbole, ( it was ) that was only in retaliation to the non stop claims of how BAD the economy had been, for months , if not years. Compared to what we have now, yes, the economy WAS on fire. So, no contradiction there.

WMD ? Are you serious ? That's not even worth my time to respond. Next.

So, in YOUR mind, this lady should be "free " to have as many kids as she wants, regardless of her ability to take care of them, and put as much strain on the social services as she damn well pleases? Sorry, that ain't freedom. That's recklessness, and child cruelty.

Yes, be greedy as you want to be, because 'greed' can't be defined. But as long as you're not breaking any laws, if $ is what you value most, and you're good at making it, who the hell is Obama - " at some point, I think you've made enough money " to tell anyone how much money they've made is TOO much ???

When one EARNS their money, from work, that's not the same as the govt coming in and TAKING it from you, or some unfit mother DEMANDING society take care of HER children. It's NOT the same, and how dare even try to compare them to being equal.

You could go on, misrepresenting my views, or having 1/2 a conversation w/ yourself, and ignoring anything I have to say, but there's other stuff to do.

"The world is a dangerous place. Not because of the people who are evil; but because of the people who don't do anything about it." - Albert Einstein

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Sunday, December 4, 2011 5:28 AM

Rap,

I know you would never use child social services, maybe this is the price of using them, and we should have two societies, a socialist one for those who want it, and they can deal with the consequences.

That's what a ship is, you know - it's not just a keel and a hull and a deck and sails, that's what a ship needs.

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Sunday, December 4, 2011 5:44 AM

DALEK!

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:

Again, you miss the point. She can have 500 children, but the issue of entitlement centers on her not being able to pay for ONE of them, and expecting society to carry her load.

With freedom comes that right and that cost.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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Sunday, December 4, 2011 5:50 AM

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by M52NICKERSON:
Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:

Again, you miss the point. She can have 500 children, but the issue of entitlement centers on her not being able to pay for ONE of them, and expecting society to carry her load.

With freedom comes that right and that cost.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

Your view of freedom is far different than mine. She had no 'right' to take from society with so little regard. That's not 'freedom', that's selfishness and an abuse of society's generosity.

"The world is a dangerous place. Not because of the people who are evil; but because of the people who don't do anything about it." - Albert Einstein

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Sunday, December 4, 2011 5:54 AM

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by dreamtrove:
Rap,

I know you would never use child social services, maybe this is the price of using them, and we should have two societies, a socialist one for those who want it, and they can deal with the consequences.

The problem w/ that idea is that there'll always be politicians who'll use the cover of 'compassion' to draw more and more $ from the producers in society , under the guise of CARING for the poor, who have chosen to follow the socialist way. It's how the Dems win votes now. They promise all sorts of govt benefits, at a cost we can't afford, and then the GOP comes and tries to instill order and sanity to the spending, and the Dems scream and bitch about the EVIL GOP, and how they want to take your social security, take your medicare, take your healthcare, take food from your children and stop serving them 3 meals a day at school, etc... it's nanny state gone amok.

"The world is a dangerous place. Not because of the people who are evil; but because of the people who don't do anything about it." - Albert Einstein

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Sunday, December 4, 2011 6:03 AM

Okay, it is nanny state run amok, but I think the picture is a little more sinister.

The dems promise services *knowing* that the gop will shoot it down, and they can then blame the lack of services on the republicans. Meanwhile, I think the GOP will promise responsibility but then allow themselves to be overrun with dem spending increases because they want the money for their own projects, like the american empire.

It's good cop/bad cop, but at the end of the day, they're both cop.

What I was suggesting is separate systems. Let the socialists pay into the socialist system and get the social services out of it. There are plenty of wealthy socialists out there. I just don't want to live in the result.

That's what a ship is, you know - it's not just a keel and a hull and a deck and sails, that's what a ship needs.

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Sunday, December 4, 2011 6:13 AM

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Originally posted by AURaptor:
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Originally posted by M52NICKERSON:

With freedom comes that right and that cost.

Your view of freedom is far different than mine.

I think this hits the heart of the matter. I suspect that there are maybe half a dozen here who share Nick's view of freedom, but it's very far from mine, even though I'm still at least technically a democrat.

I would say that freedom is self determination, a society in which people are free and not a society in which goods and services are free.

There are probably more different versions of freedom, like Rap said, for some reason, that Bush was a defender of freedom, okay, he implied that. I think my view of freedom includes the freedom to be an islamic jihadist, and I think there are half a dozen people on the board who share that view.

So, while there might be many definitions, I think they probably distill down to half a dozen or so sets of views of generally what freedom is. There are at least three I see here pretty strongly. One is Hero-Rap-Jong and maybe Wulfie, one I would share with CTS-Byte and probably Frem-Anthony and one that Kiki-Magon-Sig-Niki share.

I guess I'd classify them something like this:
One that wants to shield society from the bad people;
One that wants to run society as a social safety net;
and one that is no shield, no net.

That's what a ship is, you know - it's not just a keel and a hull and a deck and sails, that's what a ship needs.

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Sunday, December 4, 2011 7:16 AM

DALEK!

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:

Your view of freedom is far different than mine. She had no 'right' to take from society with so little regard. That's not 'freedom', that's selfishness and an abuse of society's generosity.

You can't have claim to believe in freedom and want to dictate to people when and if they can have children.

Some people will always take advantage of the generosity and freedoms of society. As I said that is part of their costs.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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Sunday, December 4, 2011 7:20 AM

DALEK!

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Originally posted by dreamtrove:

I would say that freedom is self determination, a society in which people are free and not a society in which goods and services are free.

My view of freedom have nothing to do with goods and services being free. If someone was to say that they don't think those kids should get any support at all but still allow the mother to have more children that would still be a free society. Just not a very good one.

Freedom and good do not always walk hand in hand.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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Sunday, December 4, 2011 7:53 AM

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by M52NICKERSON:
Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:

Your view of freedom is far different than mine. She had no 'right' to take from society with so little regard. That's not 'freedom', that's selfishness and an abuse of society's generosity.

You can't have claim to believe in freedom and want to dictate to people when and if they can have children.

Yeah, I can, when the choices of having kids becomes a burden on society, and endangers the health and well being of her other kids. It's not the fact that she's having kids, or so many, but that she refuses to take ANY responsibility.

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Some people will always take advantage of the generosity and freedoms of society. As I said that is part of their costs.

On this, we disagree.

"The world is a dangerous place. Not because of the people who are evil; but because of the people who don't do anything about it." - Albert Einstein

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Sunday, December 4, 2011 8:02 AM

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

Little Rappy favors money over freedom. Little Rappy favors security over freedom. Little Rappy favors torture over freedom. In fact little Rappy seems to favor pretty much everything over freedom.

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Sunday, December 4, 2011 8:09 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

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sorry, you just come off as a totally judgemental bastard in this matter, and someone who is obsessed with the contents of their own hip pocket.

This surprises you exactly why?

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so for the sake of not knowing anything about this woman, you can't assume that because she has 15 children to 3 different fathers that will not be a good parent

I have a long-time friend who has (last I heard) six kids by three different fathers--two of them were the result of being raped by one of her husbands (she wouldn't have an abortion unless her life was threatened--and even then, only because she wouldn't be able to take care of the remaining children). She's had a tough time of it, no question; she's had to fight for her kids periodically and had them taken a couple of times, once in areas where what would have happened to the children would probably have been pretty awful. She was targeted by Child Welfare, who searched to find SOMETHING each time to take the kids. In the end she always won.

The last time I heard from her, she had moved to LA and was doing fine. She adores each of her kids and yes, while a few times she had to take assistance, mostly she busted ass to work and care for her kids. They never went hungry, tho' they came close a few times. She had found a good guy who loved her and yes, was expecting again. And still working. There is no way taking her kids from her at a bad point in her life would ever have been good for the children; they're beautiful kids and each of them excels in their own way...and they know they are loved beyond anything.

She is, by the way, as Caucasian as you get.

I don't think anyone knows if she is incapable of raising "even ONE of them", which only reflects the attitude mentioned.

Wish, I don't know you very well, but I understand your fury, in both this and the other thread. However, I too would argue as to how you propose to actually find out who is and isn't, or won't be, a good parent. I often quote Keanu Reeves line from "Parenthood" that

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You know, Mrs. Buckman, you need a license to buy a dog, to drive a car - hell, you even need a license to catch a fish. But they'll let any butt-reaming asshole be a father.

But it's meant as a snark, not as reality, because having seen the failings of every system we've instituted for protecting children, I don't presume to think I have the answer, either.

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This is quite a different stance from the one you took during the Gulf oil spill. At that time, you DEMANDED that the government take over and fix it, because it was simply too big to expect the oil company to carry the load.

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How many times has Rappy refused to read the articles linked in threads, yet still insists on throwing in his 2 cents?

Ohhh, Mike: " This surprises you exactly why?" And no, I know it doesn't surprise you in the least, so the question ought to be "So why do you repeat again what everyone already knows?" And yes, I know the answer to THAT one too; you enjoy playing his game.

There IS no viable answer at this time to the issue this presents. It pretty much comes down to "do you believe a society should provide safety nets for the weakest among it?" Which is easy, as many great people have said, in one form or another, " Aristotle has often been quoted as saying you can judge a nation by the way it treats its most vulnerable citizens. Many, many more have said a variation of the same, including Ghandi. The validity of the statement should be so obvious to anyone that questioning it is only possibly by Randroids and people with the same mentality, and we know who that describes. So attempting to "debate" people like that is just a waste of time. Calling it "white man's burdeny" is also ridiculous, as people throughout history, of every race, have made the statement. It's the belief of all reasonable, compassionate humans, and always has been. How MUCH help we should give the weak among us can be debated, but again, the ideas of forced sterilization, letting children die, etc. are equally abhorrent to any rational person who considers the issue thoughtfully, in my opinion.

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Sunday, December 4, 2011 8:28 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

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my views aren't in the least 'fact free', but based in the writings of the US Constitution. Try giving it a read, sometime.

Oops, first mistake.

Where in the Constitution does it guarantee the right to own property, to make a profit, or to form corporations? Where in the Constitution does it guarantee the right to wage foreign wars, to hold Americans in indefinite detention, torture suspects, or to try them before a military panel?

How do you expect me... or anyone, for that matter... when you make such egregious mis-statements? So before you tell others to read the Constitution (I have) maybe you should read it yourself, and not have right wing entertainers read it, like some Pope interpreting the Bible for you?

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Claims of 'puppets', 'mind numbed robots ', etc... have been raised since Rush was first on the air. But his critics have it 180degrees backwards. I was already thinking this stuff, before Rush.

Hogwash. You bring up points only when they're brought up for you. You change "your" mind only when the past becomes an inconvenient embarrassment for the right wing, and the narrative gets changed for you and you go along with it, and never even notice. That is why your topic du jour changes from one breathless talking point after another... if it isn't WMD, it's ACORN, then Palin, and if not that then Fannie and Freddie, and when THAT is no longer a viable scapegoat they (and you) shift to something else.

You have no intellectual anchor, rappy. You drift when and where the right wing media tells you to, not noticing where you've been, where you're going, or even that you shot yourself in the foot a couple of dozen times.

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I'm pretty sure it was well before the economy crashed that I made that comment about it being on 'fire'. And even if the comment was a bit of hyperbole, ( it was ) that was only in retaliation to the non stop claims of how BAD the economy had been, for months , if not years. Compared to what we have now, yes, the economy WAS on fire. So, no contradiction there.

OMG, you're using later events to justify your own wildly mistaken assessments?

As for the so-called "retaliation" to "non-stop" claims... rappy, I don't know if the claims were non-stop, but what they were (from me, at any case) was not a state of current performance but a warning and a prediction. What I said was... the wealth gap is so large, the debt burden is so huge, that it WILL bring the economy down. And, it did. Meanwhile, you were too stupid to listen, and because the facts were coming at you from a source that you didn't like, you were so busy "reacting" that you never even noticed the monster creeping up behind you, despite that fact that people kept pointing and shouting. At one point, you intimated that you were some kind of financial advisor, that people paid you "good money" for your insight.

If you suck so badly even in your area of so-called expertise, I just hope peeps didn't pay you TOO much. Or lose TOO much money on account of your stupidity. Because in the end, I was right and you were wrong.

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WMD ? Are you serious ? That's not even worth my time to respond. Next.

You KNOW this pony aint' gonna trot for you no more, don't you? Your lack of response is typical (for you) when you realize that you were wrong. How can you ever learn if you never admit you were ... gasp! .... wrong!. The answer is: you can't. Which is why you will never learn.

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So, in YOUR mind, this lady should be "free " to have as many kids as she wants, regardless of her ability to take care of them, and put as much strain on the social services as she damn well pleases? Sorry, that ain't freedom. That's recklessness, and child cruelty.

Ah, well, see, you presumed a response on my part, and you are wrong about this too. But before I tell you what I think,: How can you square with the idea of freedom with the idea of forced sterilization? I would like to know what exceptions you are making for THIS case to justify how you would abrogate this lady's "right to be secure in her own person" ... which, if you have read the Constitution, you would recognize as one of our fundamental rights. Is she committing a crime? Or what?

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When one EARNS their money, from work

Ah, yes, all that "work" that bankers do, writing ridiculous loans and making irrational investments, then expecting the government to bail their asses out to the tune of trillions of dollars a day.

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Sunday, December 4, 2011 8:45 AM

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by 1kiki:
Little Rappy favors money over freedom. Little Rappy favors security over freedom. Little Rappy favors torture over freedom. In fact little Rappy seems to favor pretty much everything over freedom.

Not one of your inane, silly claims can be backed up. Your fantasy of claiming I chose A over B, is simply childish, and nothing more.

"The world is a dangerous place. Not because of the people who are evil; but because of the people who don't do anything about it." - Albert Einstein

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Sunday, December 4, 2011 9:14 AM

America loves a winner!

I made no misstatements. Read the 5th Amendment, per private property.

http://constitution.i2i.org/2011/03/21/the-constitution-and-property-r
ights/

The rest of your first paragraph is just nonsense.

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Hogwash. You bring up points only when they're brought up for you. You change "your" mind only when the past becomes an inconvenient embarrassment for the right wing, and the narrative gets changed for you and you go along with it, and never even notice. That is why your topic du jour changes from one breathless talking point after another... if it isn't WMD, it's ACORN, then Palin, and if not that then Fannie and Freddie, and when THAT is no longer a viable scapegoat they (and you) shift to something else.

You have no intellectual anchor, rappy. You drift when and where the right wing media tells you to, not noticing where you've been, where you're going, or even that you shot yourself in the foot a couple of dozen times.

Complete fantasy. I've been so consistent, it infuriates you.

And funny, how you thought the debt burden was such a crisis of impending doom under Bush, but now , for some reason, your cries of alarm have fallen silent. Why is that ? Obama has only pushed the debt up further, but it's fine for him now, huh?

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At one point, you intimated that you were some kind of financial advisor, that people paid you "good money" for your insight.

If you suck so badly even in your area of so-called expertise, I just hope peeps didn't pay you TOO much. Or lose TOO much money on account of your stupidity. Because in the end, I was right and you were wrong.

Huh? I never 'intimated' any such thing.Never claimed any thing remotely of the sort. Where in the hell are you getting this crap from ? I think it may be a clue as to your ( and others here ) whole mistaken imagination of who I and from where my views come.

I've never been, or ever claimed to be any sort of a financial advisor, adviser, or having anything to DO w/ being employed in the financial industry.

WOW. Talk about a huge swing and miss!

As for the issue of WMD, yeah, the intel was incomplete, and much of what we were TOLD was not the case. Still doesn't mean that Saddam and Iraq weren't in compliance with UN resolutions. Iraq wasn't, it played a game of deception, and paid the price. But I still contend that Saddam, who did try to assassinate a former US President, was aiding terrorist organizations ,and did have plans for expanding his WMD program, regardless of whether he had the 'vast warehouses ', stockpiled of lethal chemicals or not.

As for the welfare broodmare, I merely asked a question, which you didn't feel inclined to answer.

How many in this country have jobs, who are NOT bankers ? Your unhinged vitriol against the bankers has completely blinded you to the real issue at hand, the concept of individuals, living free and earning a living, by LEGAL means, doing the best they can, and how much of that which they earn belongs to the federal govt. I know you love trying to dodge the issue by interjecting your class warfare mantra, but most folks aren't bankers. Try to remember that, when you're vilifying freedom and capitalism.

If ya can.

"The world is a dangerous place. Not because of the people who are evil; but because of the people who don't do anything about it." - Albert Einstein

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Sunday, December 4, 2011 10:41 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

You're so consistent it infuriates me? Okay yeah, whatever.

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And funny, how you thought the debt burden was such a crisis of impending doom under Bush, but now , for some reason, your cries of alarm have fallen silent. Why is that ? Obama has only pushed the debt up further, but it's fine for him now, huh?

No, it is NOT fine for him now. I have been consistently maintaining that we need to tax the rich.

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As for the welfare broodmare, I merely asked a question, which you didn't feel inclined to answer.

I will answer it when you tell me how you can claim to be for "freedom" and yet advocate forced sterilization. I DO have an answer, and it prolly isn't what you think. So, after you....

Quote:
How many in this country have jobs, who are NOT bankers ? Your unhinged vitriol against the bankers has completely blinded you to the real issue at hand, the concept of individuals, living free and earning a living, by LEGAL means, doing the best they can, and how much of that which they earn belongs to the federal govt. I know you love trying to dodge the issue by interjecting your class warfare mantra, but most folks aren't bankers. Try to remember that, when you're vilifying freedom and capitalism.

Okay, let's make banking and investment illegal then. They produce nothing, they hold a large portion of wealth, and they've taken the economy down in flames many times in our nation's history. And there's nothing in the Constitution... nothing... which makes us a capitalist nation, despite your desire otherwise.

If ya can.

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Sunday, December 4, 2011 10:52 AM

America loves a winner!

I'll answer your broodmare question when you come back and tell me where you got the idea that I was some sort of financial advisor.

" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Sunday, December 4, 2011 11:05 AM

DALEK!

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
Yeah, I can, when the choices of having kids becomes a burden on society, and endangers the health and well being of her other kids. It's not the fact that she's having kids, or so many, but that she refuses to take ANY responsibility.

The only reason it is a burden on society is because we choose to not abandon those kids and let them die. If we as a society decided that we would not support those kids there would be no burden.

Here what I find funny. You talk about how this burden on society should not be allowed to happen but will scream about something like universal health care.

Sorry you can't believe in freedom and say that we should take away someones freedom to have children. Doing so make you a hypocrite.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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Sunday, December 4, 2011 11:11 AM

CHRISISALL

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:

As for the issue of WMD, yeah, the intel was incomplete, and much of what we were TOLD was not the case.

...And it's okay to act on incomplete intel & what someone TELLS you.

LOL, that's you AU. In a nutshell. Emphasis on nut.
You're never wrong if you can say someone else made you LOOK that way. The perfect excuse for everything. And you get to be continually correct!
And your fear level goes down, your self esteem rises...
Yeah, truth & objectivity are highly over-rated!

The laughing Chrisisall

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Sunday, December 4, 2011 11:12 AM

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by M52NICKERSON:
Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
Yeah, I can, when the choices of having kids becomes a burden on society, and endangers the health and well being of her other kids. It's not the fact that she's having kids, or so many, but that she refuses to take ANY responsibility.

The only reason it is a burden on society is because we choose to not abandon those kids and let them die. If we as a society decided that we would not support those kids there would be no burden.

And by 'we', you don't mean her local community, a church, or any private organization.. you mean the state govt, right ? Gotchya.

Quote:
Here what I find funny. You talk about how this burden on society should not be allowed to happen but will scream about something like universal health care.
Yeah, concept of personal responsibility just not something that registers with you, is it ?

Quote:
Sorry you can't believe in freedom and say that we should take away someones freedom to have children. Doing so make you a hypocrite.

If she can pay for them, she can have as many as she wishes. That's freedom. Having one kid after another, damn the consequences, and not providing for them, that's not freedom, that's criminal.

"The world is a dangerous place. Not because of the people who are evil; but because of the people who don't do anything about it." - Albert Einstein

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Sunday, December 4, 2011 11:17 AM

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:

As for the issue of WMD, yeah, the intel was incomplete, and much of what we were TOLD was not the case.
...And it's okay to act on incomplete intel & what someone TELLS you.

That's how the real world works, Chris. Your CIA director says the evidence is a " slam dunk ", you take that into consideration, with all the other evidence you have, and you make a decision.

"The world is a dangerous place. Not because of the people who are evil; but because of the people who don't do anything about it." - Albert Einstein

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Sunday, December 4, 2011 11:17 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Sig:

Quote:
You're so consistent it infuriates me?

THEN WHY DO YOU RESPOND TO HIM?? I'll keep on asking...

Chris, I'm ashamed of you. That post sounds distinctly Mike-ish or Sig-ish or Story-ish. You can do MUCH better, I know you can...where's your wonderful, magnificent satirical humor? It's really the ONLY way to respond to Raptor--at least that provides humor for everyone, not just wasted time for you.

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Sunday, December 4, 2011 11:38 AM

DALEK!

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:

And by 'we', you don't mean her local community, a church, or any private organization.. you mean the state govt, right ? Gotchya.

Your funny! By we I mean any or all of the above.

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:Yeah, concept of personal responsibility just not something that registers with you, is it ?

Did you forget that I agree with you that she should have the children taken away from her?

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:If she can pay for them, she can have as many as she wishes. That's freedom. Having one kid after another, damn the consequences, and not providing for them, that's not freedom, that's criminal.

Oh, so freedom depends on ones ability to pay. So does that mean the rich have more freedom then the poor?

I believe you have argued before that part of freedom is being able to make bad choices. The problem you are having is that you are not willing to say society should just abandon those children, but don't like the idea of having to care for them. so you want to put limits on a persons ability to make the wrong choice and have kids they can't pay for. Any way you slice it that is taking away their freedom.

Sometimes in a free and moral society we are forced to pay for others mistakes. The only way around that is to give up freedom or morality.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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Sunday, December 4, 2011 12:02 PM

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

And yet another thread centered on people responding to little Rappy's childish tantrums.

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Sunday, December 4, 2011 12:17 PM

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by M52NICKERSON:

Oh, so freedom depends on ones ability to pay. So does that mean the rich have more freedom then the poor?

Same freedoms, just more opportunities to enjoy it. I can't jet over to London to see a play ( well, not very often ) , or to Paris to go shopping, but those who have enough $ can. Should my inability to do so keep others from doing what they want? And yes, if you can afford to have more kids , by all means, go for it.

Quote:
I believe you have argued before that part of freedom is being able to make bad choices. The problem you are having is that you are not willing to say society should just abandon those children, but don't like the idea of having to care for them. so you want to put limits on a persons ability to make the wrong choice and have kids they can't pay for. Any way you slice it that is taking away their freedom.

Sometimes in a free and moral society we are forced to pay for others mistakes. The only way around that is to give up freedom or morality.

1 'mistake' is getting knocked up, at 15 or so, unexpectedly. Or maybe a couple of times. Not 15 times, by 3 guys, never being married. That's not an 'ooops'.

"The world is a dangerous place. Not because of the people who are evil; but because of the people who don't do anything about it." - Albert Einstein

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Sunday, December 4, 2011 2:46 PM

DALEK!

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:

Same freedoms, just more opportunities to enjoy it. I can't jet over to London to see a play ( well, not very often ) , or to Paris to go shopping, but those who have enough $ can. Should my inability to do so keep others from doing what they want? And yes, if you can afford to have more kids , by all means, go for it.

Yes, you can do those things if you have the money. Of course the government is not going to stop you from spending all your money in doing so. Getting pregnant does not cost money so it is a freedom open to any women. Forcing her to not get pregnant or preventing her from doing so makes it a freedom based how much money they have. That is not the same freedoms.

quote]Originally posted by AURaptor:I 'mistake' is getting knocked up, at 15 or so, unexpectedly. Or maybe a couple of times. Not 15 times, by 3 guys, never being married. That's not an 'ooops'.

Your right, it is a bunch of vary bad choices. For people to have freedom you still have to allow people to make those.

"The world is a dangerous place. Not because of the people who are evil; but because of the people who don't do anything about it." - Albert Einstein

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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Sunday, December 4, 2011 3:11 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by 1kiki:
And yet another thread centered on people responding to little Rappy's childish tantrums.

While I don't share the animosity, I do see a pointlessness in the exercise. How many people will expend how much effort arguing from intractable positions?

That's what a ship is, you know - it's not just a keel and a hull and a deck and sails, that's what a ship needs.

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Sunday, December 4, 2011 4:01 PM

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

"How many people will expend how much effort arguing from intractable positions?"

Sadly, with many posters here, that is the history of this thread from day one.

Name me any one person who has changed their mind about anything in all these years.

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Sunday, December 4, 2011 4:08 PM

MAGONSDAUGHTER

I've read a lot of stuff that has made me think, see things from a different viewpoint and maybe even tinkered with some of my believe systems.

You may not go from being a die hard republican to a strident socialist, but there may be some areas where you think a little differently.

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Sunday, December 4, 2011 4:16 PM

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

In my opinion, that makes you one of a few here.

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Sunday, December 4, 2011 4:17 PM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
I'll answer your broodmare question when you come back and tell me where you got the idea that I was some sort of financial advisor.

That is what I recall you saying. That you were an advisor of some sort... that people paid you good money for advice. In context, I thought it was financial. Perhaps I remember inaccurately. I may be (gasp! wrong. (See? It's not so hard to do!)

So, now that I've given you my explanation, you give me yours: How do you reconcile your support of "freedom" and also advocate forced sterilization?

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Sunday, December 4, 2011 4:22 PM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Oh, and BTW... rappy has not really responded to ANY of the points where he was wrong. Nor has he responded to the idea of making banking and investment illegal. So the ground he stands on is getting smaller and smaller.

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Sunday, December 4, 2011 6:49 PM

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by M52NICKERSON:
Your right, it is a bunch of vary bad choices. For people to have freedom you still have to allow people to make those.

For REAL freedom, they must be allowed to suffer the consequences of their bad choices. Having others pay for their mistakes, isn't freedom.

"The world is a dangerous place. Not because of the people who are evil; but because of the people who don't do anything about it." - Albert Einstein

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Sunday, December 4, 2011 6:54 PM

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Quote:
I'll answer your broodmare question when you come back and tell me where you got the idea that I was some sort of financial advisor.
That is what I recall you saying. That you were an advisor of some sort... that people paid you good money for advice. In context, I thought it was financial. Perhaps I remember inaccurately. I may be (gasp! wrong. (See? It's not so hard to do!)

So, now that I've given you my explanation, you give me yours: How do you reconcile your support of "freedom" and also advocate forced sterilization?

There's no 'may be' about it. You were completely wrong, and it's not even close. Someone else here, perhaps, you have confused me with, or maybe on another message board?

In this case, how do you NOT stop this lady from having more kids ? She's clearly shown she's an unfit mother. This isn't some reality show, 19, 20 and counting, or what ever. This is ' 15,and I forget which one's your daddy. Go on! Stop botherin' me ! ' .

"The world is a dangerous place. Not because of the people who are evil; but because of the people who don't do anything about it." - Albert Einstein

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Sunday, December 4, 2011 6:58 PM

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by 1kiki:
And yet another thread centered on people responding to little Rappy's childish tantrums.

Nothing childish or tantrum about it. Your inability to offer up any coherent, rational reply is the childish tantrum on display here.

"The world is a dangerous place. Not because of the people who are evil; but because of the people who don't do anything about it." - Albert Einstein

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Sunday, December 4, 2011 7:25 PM

Quote:
Posted by Niki:

Ohhh, Mike: " This surprises you exactly why?" And no, I know it doesn't surprise you in the least, so the question ought to be "So why do you repeat again what everyone already knows?" And yes, I know the answer to THAT one too; you enjoy playing his game.

As do you, my dear. You spend more time claiming to NOT respond than most others do actually responding to him. It's more than a bit passive-aggressive, you know.

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Sunday, December 4, 2011 7:38 PM

As for the "welfare broodmare", I'll ask a simple question of Rappy, which he has asked time and again himself of corporations, big banks, and right-wing pork princesses:

What did this person do that is illegal? What law did she break?

I pointed out that MIchele Bachmann is THE quintessential welfare queen - taking in children only to get the paycheck from the state, taking Medicare money via her husband's "pray the gay away" clinic, taking hundreds of thousands of dollars to not work on her family farm, taking taxpayer money AND lavish benefit packages while she "works" her so-called "job" - which is really just sucking off the federal teat, which is really the only job she's ever had - and I was asked what she was doing that was illegal.

So I'm asking the same question. Is this woman breaking the law? Is she committing fraud? Or is she getting what she can from the system, which I'm told is just fine when Michele Bachmann does it?

Really, how is she any different from Bachmann?

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Sunday, December 4, 2011 7:42 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:

As for the issue of WMD, yeah, the intel was incomplete, and much of what we were TOLD was not the case.
...And it's okay to act on incomplete intel & what someone TELLS you.

That's how the real world works, Chris. Your CIA director says the evidence is a " slam dunk ", you take that into consideration, with all the other evidence you have, and you make a decision.

So that would be a "no" on the whole "personal responsibility" thing, then.

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Sunday, December 4, 2011 7:47 PM