Savage behavior by dreamtrove

Nick,

I concur, but why stop there? Perhaps incarceration is barbaric. Every society does it, but does it help? What about jailed for life? That certainly doesn't rehabilitate.

Anthony,

Good point, I hadn't thought of that one, and you know I should've.

Here are some others, I was going to say the prison one first but I decided to wait and see what people posted.

1. War. Need I say more?

2. Taxes. It's not as straight as some of the barbarism, until you think of it this was: Me and my boys are going to fight a war, because we wants some more goodies, so here's the deal:

Instead of working 8 hours a day to buy that house you want for your wife and kids, you can work 6 hours a day for the house, but you'll have to work 2 hours a day to help us kill children in Afghanistan.

Don't like it? We'll throw you in prison.

That's what a ship is, you know - it's not just a keel and a hull and a deck and sails, that's what a ship needs.

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Friday, December 2, 2011 2:59 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)

Death penalty.

Lack of healthcare.

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Friday, December 2, 2011 3:05 PM

M52NICKERSON

DALEK!

Quote:
Originally posted by dreamtrove:

I concur, but why stop there? Perhaps incarceration is barbaric. Every society does it, but does it help? What about jailed for life? That certainly doesn't rehabilitate.

For the most part I agree, however I do think some people are beyond rehabilitation.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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Friday, December 2, 2011 3:13 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:

Death penalty.

Mike,

I mentioned this in the header. I think maybe these should be flagged in the three categories I put up there:
We know it's wrong because we used to believe it's wrong
We know it's wrong because someone else believes it's wrong
We will know it's wrong in the future but society can't see it today

Quote:
Lack of healthcare.

I was wondering if someone would say this. I can see this in one regard: That we ban people from practicing their own medicine, which as it can be life saving, is barbaric.

If I were to require that someone serve me with their time without me doing anything for them, I would be enacting slavery, so I'm afraid that if I'm to conclude that it is required of a physician to give me free healthcare, then I think I would be a barbarian, so I'm at an impasse at the healthcare provider.

The cost of healthcare, prohibitive, so only for the insured or the wealthy, that's barbaric for me.

Also, the healthcare itself is kinda barbaric, lots of it.

Medical malpractice, that it's acceptable, and so widespread.

Also Police brutality.

Homelessness is another tricky one like healthcarelessness.

Prohibition is barbaric.

I'm sitting here because I'm trying to think of one that was on my mind when I was answering healthcare.

Debt is barbaric. It's real similar to slavery.

The absurd pricing schemes where a house is $150,000 and you can only make $7/hr working, and really, you lose $1 in FICA and $2-3 in taxes, so $4/hr, that means you'll have to work 18 years to pay for a house, and by then, inflation will have eaten your dollars. Also, you'll have to pay for somewhere to live in the meantime because you won't get public asst. while working.

Quote:
Originally posted by M52NICKERSON:

For the most part I agree, however I do think some people are beyond rehabilitation.

I don't, perhaps, yes, full rehabilitation, if someone's so random they might decide to kill someone for no reason, but I don't see the purpose of caging them. Maybe put them in a community of other dangerous felons where they can do something productive, or kill each other, whichever happens first.

That's what a ship is, you know - it's not just a keel and a hull and a deck and sails, that's what a ship needs.

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Friday, December 2, 2011 3:35 PM

M52NICKERSON

DALEK!

Quote:
Originally posted by dreamtrove:

I don't, perhaps, yes, full rehabilitation, if someone's so random they might decide to kill someone for no reason, but I don't see the purpose of caging them. Maybe put them in a community of other dangerous felons where they can do something productive, or kill each other, whichever happens first.

I would think that is a little higher on the savage scale then incarceration.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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Friday, December 2, 2011 4:24 PM

To separate the dangerous criminals from the population in their own community rather than incarceration is more savage?

That's what a ship is, you know - it's not just a keel and a hull and a deck and sails, that's what a ship needs.

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Friday, December 2, 2011 4:37 PM

FREMDFIRMA

Quote:
Originally posted by dreamtrove:
I don't, perhaps, yes, full rehabilitation, if someone's so random they might decide to kill someone for no reason, but I don't see the purpose of caging them. Maybe put them in a community of other dangerous felons where they can do something productive, or kill each other, whichever happens first.

Hey, it worked for Australia!

I just hadda say it.

-F

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Friday, December 2, 2011 4:53 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!

5,000 years of civilized human history, or more, and we're still pretty much the same.

"The world is a dangerous place. Not because of the people who are evil; but because of the people who don't do anything about it." - Albert Einstein

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Friday, December 2, 2011 5:09 PM

BYTEMITE

Australia is BADASS. That actually turned out pretty well for the immigrants. Not so much the native population though.

Maybe we should send dangerous convicts off to unpopulated deserts to terraform them into productive land. But we'd need better technology first, and send them off with that technology. In any case, it would be kind of like getting a second chance, and getting them away from the stressors that caused the initial social infraction. But they'd still have to work for that second chance.

Down side: potential for roving rapists or serial killers going from each convict homestead and doing as their particular whim requests.

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Friday, December 2, 2011 5:40 PM

Not at all, Rap, 5000 years ago we were making people carry rocks about in the desert to make shrines for dead people and temples to gods all really just so that everyone would have a job even though it didn't really do anything but waste everyone's time just so the pharaoh could have an excuse to give everyone a sack of wheat a week so they could afford to pay the physicians guild for their medicine and pay for housing and oh, phooey, you're right, we're exactly where we were.

Byte, I suspect there are more qualified people to do that terraforming task than unskilled felons. This is the problem with prison labor and jobs for the unemployed that most people don't work out "yes, but what are you doing for the task at hand?"

Actually, I think that our current plan is working well: send them to the cities.

Just tell everyone else to get the freezeray out of there.

That's what a ship is, you know - it's not just a keel and a hull and a deck and sails, that's what a ship needs.

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Friday, December 2, 2011 6:06 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by dreamtrove:

Not at all, Rap, 5000 years ago we were making people carry rocks about in the desert to make shrines for dead people and temples to gods all really just so that everyone would have a job even though it didn't really do anything but waste everyone's time just so the pharaoh could have an excuse to give everyone a sack of wheat a week so they could afford to pay the physicians guild for their medicine and pay for housing and oh, phooey, you're right, we're exactly where we were.

I thought you were talking about human nature, not advances in the healthcare system, or technology.

My bad.

"The world is a dangerous place. Not because of the people who are evil; but because of the people who don't do anything about it." - Albert Einstein

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Friday, December 2, 2011 6:21 PM

Sense of humor much?

I was actually pointing out that we're currently running our society in almost the exact same way as ancient Egypt was run, since you said 5000 years ago. It was all big spending pointless public works projects and entrench politicos getting kickbacks helping local industry, etc.

Anyway, human nature doesn't change. The only thing that changes is human knowledge. We can reach a point where we learn the mistakes of the past, and not make them. We need to learn how to recognize them in new forms though, like, how we are not about to allow slavery again, but we allow debt based contracts paid for by long term labor arrangements because we don't recognize it for what it is.

A real free society would build a house, not buy into a long term debt contract for a house and then enslave itself to a job to get out of it. Ditto education, etc. It just shows we have problems seeing the same thing in a new form. Like how we allowed MOAB to come in, or the russian implosion device, just because they're technically not nukes, rather than sticking to the WMD criteria.

That's what a ship is, you know - it's not just a keel and a hull and a deck and sails, that's what a ship needs.

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Friday, December 2, 2011 8:01 PM

HKCAVALIER

Savage behavior, c. 2112:

Yelling at children (except in windstorms and across ravines and the like)

Using children as cannon fodder (enlistment age raised to 30)

Forcing children to decide the course of their lives at the age of 18 (average college age will trend upward toward 30 as populations live longer and longer. Watching movies of college life from our era will feel like watching old footage of 12 year olds working in mines)

Racism (2 things: One, social networking advances to the point where toddlers become best friends with toddlers on the other side of the planet in VR cyber playrooms, and voice activated translators; two, after the petroleum crash and a few pandemics, people will simply feel more interconnected with their neighbors and more intermarriage will happen; also, "white" culture as the de facto we-don't-have-a-culture-we're-just-the-typical-human-being will become "multi-racial," thanks to population trends and, again, social networking. Y'see the "one world government" that many folks on the right think they fear will never come to pass, instead, what we'll get is "one world culture." Once it's completed its spread, the entire civilized world will share social values ranging somewhere between that of, say, San Francisco and Copenhagen)

Homophobia (one world culture)

Oligarchy (Oligarchy and totalitarianism require information scarcity to maintain power and information scarcity is being targeted for extinction. When everyone knows how government works, there will be no need for a class of "government specialist," a.k.a., politicians. Direct democracy will be the only thing that makes sense in 100 years. Senators and such will be like union reps, just the poor schlubs who have to go to all the meetings and represent what their constituency dictates or be fired)

Solitary confinement, a.k.a., forced social and sexual anorexia. It will be lumped with torture as a war crime.

Religion that preaches that you will be tortured after death if you don't do as it says. Religious extortion in general.

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

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Friday, December 2, 2011 8:35 PM

BYTEMITE

Quote:

Byte, I suspect there are more qualified people to do that terraforming task than unskilled felons. This is the problem with prison labor and jobs for the unemployed that most people don't work out "yes, but what are you doing for the task at hand?"

The point isn't the work. It's not intended to be hard labour as a sentence for a crime, and they'll come back when they've served their time. I'm talking about them carving a new life out there, as per Australia.

As they attempt to do so, they'd use technology we'd given them to help them survive, which would at the same time restore where we'd sent them to a habitable environment. It's a second chance, and an opportunity for survival for these people away from other people and societies that they come into conflict with because of mental illness, personality, or life condition.

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Friday, December 2, 2011 10:54 PM

FREMDFIRMA

Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
Down side: potential for roving rapists or serial killers going from each convict homestead and doing as their particular whim requests.

Which we have right here, right now - only we give them badges and fancy uniforms and call them Police, or TSA, DHS, FBI, yadda yadda...

But honestly, other than perceived legitimacy, what's the fuckin difference ?

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

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Saturday, December 3, 2011 12:20 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
Quote:
Originally posted by dreamtrove:
I don't, perhaps, yes, full rehabilitation, if someone's so random they might decide to kill someone for no reason, but I don't see the purpose of caging them. Maybe put them in a community of other dangerous felons where they can do something productive, or kill each other, whichever happens first.

Hey, it worked for Australia!
I just hadda say it.

-F

And it seemed to work out okay. Give a crim some opportunity to do well, and he (or she) probably will.

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Saturday, December 3, 2011 2:59 AM

HK,

I'm with you on the treatment of children. Discrimination, I'm not sure if it will change, I think they may be evolutionarily driven. Good point about information scarcity

Frem,

HK firsted you on your own issue.

Byte,

Good point, better make it an island chain.

That's what a ship is, you know - it's not just a keel and a hull and a deck and sails, that's what a ship needs.

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Saturday, December 3, 2011 4:40 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Quote:
Maybe put them in a community of other dangerous felons where they can do something productive, or kill each other, whichever happens first.

Anyone who thinks dangerous felons, who usually come from a background where life isn't valued very highly, would behave differently if they were isolated from society, is in my opinion naive. Some would, certainly, but the majority? I don't think so. Yeah, it worked in Australia, but how actually "dangerous" were most of those guys? Wasn't that as much a political move as a law-enforcement one?

I think it's also naive to compare us to early civilizations, tho' I think that was mostly a joke. The way the "inner-city poor" lived then was FAR worse than it is now, bad as it is now. We don't have debtor's prisons, orphanages (for the most part) cannot be compared to those of hundreds of years ago, I believe there is TONS more adoption...hell, there's too much to enumerate. Lives are better...how MUCH better is a matter of opinion, but there are minorities who aren't treated the way they were in the past, and WOMEN HAVE RIGHTS!

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Saturday, December 3, 2011 7:09 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Niki2:

Anyone who thinks dangerous felons, who usually come from a background where life isn't valued very highly

This gets my WTF award. As in WTF?!? "a background where life isn't valued very highly" Deal with that concept. Sorry, speechless me, I have no response.

Quote:
Wasn't that as much a political move as a law-enforcement one?

Moving the prisons to australia was a political move? I missed something about colonial australia. The continent wasn't really made into a penal colony, the penal colonies were placed there, the land aleardy belonged to britain, they were just trying to cleanse society. I think at the time they thought that criminality was genetic.

Quote:
The way the "inner-city poor" lived then was FAR worse than it is now, bad as it is now.

Yes it was a joke, but egypt's "inner city poor" as it were, were slaves. So, yes.

Quote:
minorities who aren't treated the way they were in the past, and WOMEN HAVE RIGHTS!

Um, sorry to stop and shoot a skeet here, but drink much Koolaid* lately?
Just a refresher, since we were talking about ancient Egypt here, women has equal rights under ancient egyptian law to those of men, include professions, economic, material and land possession, primogenitor status, and political and clergy positions, which they held more of than women hold today in Egypt.

Yes, sure, there was inequality in Ancient Egypt, it was a theocratic class society with slavery. OTOH, every generation of women since time began didn't just roll over and say "oh look, I'm a slave, that's my lot in life" for three million years until Margaret Sanger and co. came along.

* out of deference to the unfortunate corporation saddled with this, it was flavoraid that jim jones used, not koolaid.

That's what a ship is, you know - it's not just a keel and a hull and a deck and sails, that's what a ship needs.

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Saturday, December 3, 2011 8:32 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

If we ever get to the point of being able to look back at the follies of the present...

nuclear power
pollution
overpopulation
over-consumption of resources
global climate shift

I expect to get a lot of arguments about these.

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Saturday, December 3, 2011 8:34 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Hello,

I think future people with superior nuclear energy systems will indeed consider our current mechanisms savage and barbaric.

--Anthony

_______________________________________________

"In every war, the state enacts a tax of freedom upon the citizenry. The unspoken promise is that the tax shall be revoked at war's end. Endless war holds no such promise. Hence, Eternal War is Eternal Slavery." --Admiral Robert J. Henner

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Saturday, December 3, 2011 8:37 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

And where, exactly, do we dispose of nuclear waste?

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Saturday, December 3, 2011 9:16 AM

Sig, I think he means 100% breeder reactors, or fusion.

That's what a ship is, you know - it's not just a keel and a hull and a deck and sails, that's what a ship needs.

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Saturday, December 3, 2011 9:20 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

That may be true. OTOH, that doesn't excuse our current fission technology, which was all promoted by the military's desire for nuclear weapons-grade plutonium anyway.

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Saturday, December 3, 2011 9:22 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
That may be true. OTOH, that doesn't excuse our current fission technology, which was all promoted by the military's desire for nuclear weapons-grade plutonium anyway.

Hello,

I already agreed they'd find it barbaric. What is your purpose in pummeling the issue further?

--Anthony

_______________________________________________

"In every war, the state enacts a tax of freedom upon the citizenry. The unspoken promise is that the tax shall be revoked at war's end. Endless war holds no such promise. Hence, Eternal War is Eternal Slavery." --Admiral Robert J. Henner

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Saturday, December 3, 2011 9:40 AM

KWICKO

Quote:

Um, sorry to stop and shoot a skeet here, but drink much Koolaid* lately?
Just a refresher, since we were talking about ancient Egypt here, women has equal rights under ancient egyptian law to those of men, include professions, economic, material and land possession, primogenitor status, and political and clergy positions, which they held more of than women hold today in Egypt.

Yes, sure, there was inequality in Ancient Egypt, it was a theocratic class society with slavery. OTOH, every generation of women since time began didn't just roll over and say "oh look, I'm a slave, that's my lot in life" for three million years until Margaret Sanger and co. came along.

Um, I think you missed a gear shift. Some stuff was said about Egypt, but then Niki seemed to shift gears and was speaking in generalities about life in, say, the Middle Ages or Dickensian England as compared to life now, and what we consider barbaric.

Quote:

* out of deference to the unfortunate corporation saddled with this, it was flavoraid that jim jones used, not koolaid.

Please feel free to just go ahead and say "Don't drink the Flavor-Aid", then; I don't think anyone will stop you and ask, "What the hell are you talking about? Don't you mean 'Kool-Aid'?" I think they'll still get the gist. But Kool-Aid rolls off the tongue easier.

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Saturday, December 3, 2011 10:15 AM

Government

Criminalization of non-violent behaviors

Wars

Taxes

Homophobia

Racism

Sexism

Pollution and deforestation

-----
Never be deceived that the rich will allow you to vote away their wealth. -- Lucy Parsons (1853-1942, labor activist and anarcho-communist)

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Saturday, December 3, 2011 1:18 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by dreamtrove:

Moving the prisons to australia was a political move? I missed something about colonial australia. The continent wasn't really made into a penal colony, the penal colonies were placed there, the land aleardy belonged to britain, they were just trying to cleanse society. I think at the time they thought that criminality was genetic.

JUst a bit of info on early colonional era in this country, seeing as dumping criminals seems to be a solution touted in this thread.

A lot of people are unaware that there were free settlers as well in Australia, and penal colonies were built in various locations. The penal colonies ran like prisons, only they tended to be more self sufficient. So it wasn't like people were dumped to fend for themselves.

While many of the crimes that resulted in transportation as a punishment would be considered relatively benign today, many were sent out for murder. Transportation for 7 years was a common punishment for such a crime. In that era, it was considered less heinous to murder someone (unless they were a noble or prominent citizen) than steal something. You were usually hanged for horse theft.

There was a high degree of reoffending amongst the population, so much so they establised a colony at Port Arthur for reoffenders. A lot of people went on to live pretty normal lives and prosper. There were lots of opportunities for people, and class barriers tended to be less rigid. Opening up tracts of land for farming (often given away) plus various gold rushes meant that most people had more opportunity for success than they would have ever had in the Old World.

This is why I always contend that you either have environments that support people to do okay, or you have environments which support the existence of an intranssient underclass. The underclass of Britain, considered to be genetically flawed, and generally in need of culling, either through transportation or free settlement went on to form the basis of a prosperous society.

So both you and niki are correct, you are just saying things a little different. There was a lot of political motivation for who was transported to Australia. Lots of Irish political prisoners and lots of people from the lower class. It was in a way a class cleansing that took place.

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Saturday, December 3, 2011 1:30 PM

What the future will judge as savage behaviour =

any country that continues to use the death penalty or torture
imprisonment of people with addictions, mental health problems and/or intellectual disabilities
treatment of all people in prisons
use of military action as a solution to international disputes
existence of nuclear, chemical and biological weapons
shocking resource management
pollution and waste
ecological damage
destruction of wilderness areas

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Saturday, December 3, 2011 1:50 PM

Mike,

It's just cruel to the brand. I actually think that it might have been the CIA and not Jim Jones at all. There was an element of rejection of the idea for a number of reasons. Shades of Waco.

If there was a gear shift than sorry, it seemed we were still on Egypt to me.

CTS,

I generally agree with your list, though as I said before, I doubt prejudice is going anywhere. I like "govt" as barbaric, allow me to add "civilization."

Also, public school, and shock therapy.

That's what a ship is, you know - it's not just a keel and a hull and a deck and sails, that's what a ship needs.

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Saturday, December 3, 2011 1:59 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by dreamtrove:
Also, public school, and shock therapy.

IMO, public schools and death penalty and waterboarding and all that belong under the category of "government."

Shock therapy. Yes. One day, it should be perceived as barbaric as lobotomies.

-----
Never be deceived that the rich will allow you to vote away their wealth. -- Lucy Parsons (1853-1942, labor activist and anarcho-communist)

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Saturday, December 3, 2011 2:12 PM

Perhaps surgery even. Or at least elective surgery.

That's what a ship is, you know - it's not just a keel and a hull and a deck and sails, that's what a ship needs.

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Saturday, December 3, 2011 3:42 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by dreamtrove:
Perhaps surgery even. Or at least elective surgery.

You mean, one day they might see this as barbaric?

-----
Never be deceived that the rich will allow you to vote away their wealth. -- Lucy Parsons (1853-1942, labor activist and anarcho-communist)

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Saturday, December 3, 2011 4:03 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

I'll be repeating a few

global warming
mass extinction
nuclear waste

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Saturday, December 3, 2011 4:11 PM

I'd probably say that having a tiered system of education and health, so that quality was determined by your wealth, will one day be considered barbaric.

Re: ECT - although it may appear barbaric, it actually has a high degree of effecacy for immediate treatment for severe depression. I agree that it is a controversial treatment, but if it is performed with consent, for severe cases and with other treatment backing it up, I wouldn't say it is any more controversial than organ transplants and other high risk procedures.

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Sunday, December 4, 2011 1:01 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Magonsdaughter:
I'd probably say that having a tiered system of education and health, so that quality was determined by your wealth, will one day be considered barbaric.

Would you include food, shelter, clothing, transportation, communication, and legal representation as well? Or only education and health care?

In theory, it would nice if certain economic inequities didn't exist. But considering that I have higher quality food,shelter, clothing, transportation, communication, legal rep (if needed), education, AND health care than 90% of the people on earth, and I didn't make like Jesus and give all of my wealth to the poor, I must assume I don't REALLY believe in economic equity.

That wasn't a snark at you, Magon. Just thinking out loud re my own ambivalence on the subject.

-----
Never be deceived that the rich will allow you to vote away their wealth. -- Lucy Parsons (1853-1942, labor activist and anarcho-communist)

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Sunday, December 4, 2011 3:18 AM

Quote:
Magon:

Re: ECT - although it may appear barbaric, it actually has a high degree of effecacy for immediate treatment for severe depression. I agree that it is a controversial treatment, but if it is performed with consent, for severe cases and with other treatment backing it up, I wouldn't say it is any more controversial than organ transplants and other high risk procedures.

What does consent mean? I mean, if you're in a mental ward, your judgment is impaired. Also, I can tell you that consent in this case means lots and lots of pressure from medical workers. A lot of that to the uninformed families, who end up making a lot of the decisions.

Here's how it works: Electrical current constricts the various structural fibers holding the brain together, which rips the brain apart from the inside. You're no longer depressed because you are zombified. No mental health goal is worth this.

Depression is not a disease, it's a vitamin deficiency. Take some 5htp, and possibly some pro-biotics.

People,

Thanks for the suggestions, and threadjacking aside, I want to up the stakes, because I see a lot of people venting their political points of few, and while some of it seems apropos of the question, a fair amount does not, so here's the new challenge:

Something that we do now which in the future may be considered barbaric that is NOT a political point of view of mine.

Like for me, if I say "eugenics is barbaric" everyone know that's one of my issues and say, yeah, well, DT is ranting.

If I say "not having school choice is barbaric" then they might say "DT is twisting it" (though I do think not having school choice is barbaric.)

So maybe something like:

We accept forms of transportation (planes, cars) that kill thousands of people a year, and yet haven't really ramped up the safety with the technology we have because we have an acceptable attrition rate for people who want to go from one place to another getting killed instead. That's pretty barbaric.

Here's another:

Medical malpractice. Why can doctors kill out of incompetence?

Or police brutality.

(Or police. it's a barbaric concept.)

That's what a ship is, you know - it's not just a keel and a hull and a deck and sails, that's what a ship needs.

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Sunday, December 4, 2011 7:32 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by dreamtrove:
You're no longer depressed because you are zombified. No mental health goal is worth this.

A lot of psychiatric treatment is zombification one way or another. It doesn't matter if they do it electrically, or chemically (neuroleptics), or surgically (lobotomy). Their goals here are not to truly heal and give the person as much freedom and self-actualization as possible, but to make the person less annoying whatever the cost.

Sorry for the sidetrack.

-----
Never be deceived that the rich will allow you to vote away their wealth. -- Lucy Parsons (1853-1942, labor activist and anarcho-communist)

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Sunday, December 4, 2011 10:03 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by canttakesky:

A lot of psychiatric treatment is zombification one way or another. It doesn't matter if they do it electrically, or chemically (neuroleptics), or surgically (lobotomy).

While I agree with you on TPTB's goals, it does make a difference which tools they use. If they use drugs, it can be reverse. The other two cannot.

That's what a ship is, you know - it's not just a keel and a hull and a deck and sails, that's what a ship needs.

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Sunday, December 4, 2011 10:09 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Nice snarks DT. It will, I'm sure, amaze you to discover that you don't know everything about everything. Sauce for goose...

Thank you, Magons, you answered for me. Also, "transportation" was going on to US (as in U.S.) before we threw off England, then they turned to Australia. The fact that many of the "crimes" for which people were transported were very minor, and that those minor "crimes" were in some cases politically-motivated, is one point. The clergy was also involved:

Quote:
So why was there a policy of transportation? It was really the result of The Transportation Act of 1718 which allowed the courts to sentence non-capital offences i.e. those who could claim benefit of clergy to seven years transportation or fourteen years for capital felons. And benefits of clergy gave clergy the privilege of being tried in ecclesiastical courts and not civil courts. And ecclesiastical courts could not impose the death penalty. And over the years the practice developed that prisoners charged with a felony could plead benefit of clergy if he or she could prove that he, like a clergyman, could read.

Aside from all that, as Magons said, there were Irish "criminals", and some (if not most) of that was politically motivated. That was specifically what I was thinking about in making the statement.

I'm curious: When was it decided we were "talking about Egypt" exactly? I must have missed that. As to women's rights all OVER the world, it shouldn't have to be remarked upon that by far MOST societies gave all rights to men and few to women, Egypt notwithstanding. That's history, since time began, and anyone who doesn't know it...well, what can I say?

As to life not being valued very highly, I assume you're choosing to ignore the way things are in some inner-city and poverty-ridden areas of America, where people don't expect to live to 21, a rite of passage into some gangs is to kill someone--anyone--to prove your worth, etc., etc. You obviously think growing up in such a "society" gives one the same sense of sanctity of life as, say, growing up rich or even middle class. You're entitled to your opinion.

You didn't address minorities in your rant; you think we haven't improved AT ALL when it comes to that? Some places in the world, certainly that's true, but minorities in America are treated far better than they used to be. Maybe you don't believe that, either, tho' since you didn't dive into it with both feet like the others, maybe you choose to ignore it.

Boy, you just really got off on reaming me, din'tcha? Either go pick on someone else, or get your facts straight. I expressed OPINIONS, and you didn't even get those right! There, I've given back as good as I've gotten; you know, it IS possible to disagree with someone without coming down on their heads with condescension and nastiness. Just sayin'.

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Sunday, December 4, 2011 10:50 AM

Niki

I'm not actually here to argue with you on our differing world views, I was looking to discuss the topic.

As for Egypt, it was here:
You posted "I think it's also naive to compare us to early civilizations"
In response to my post:"I was actually pointing out that we're currently running our society in almost the exact same way as ancient Egypt was run"
Which was what me and Rap were talking about above. Since no other ancient civilizations were mentioned, I assumed we were still talking about Egypt. The situation has not improved for women in Egypt.

Quote:
by far MOST societies gave all rights to men and few to women

I'm fairly familiar with history and I find this a very dubious statement. It sounds more like university propaganda than objective reality. Perhaps most western European christian societies of the middle ages, but I have my doubts if we look at a wider scope. Nevermind. The intellectual liberal in me doesn't really exist, and I'm more interested in the topic at hand.

Oh, and no, we weren't sparring in a battle, I have no intention of getting into a political debate, and I would know better than to engage you in a war of vitriol.

So, Topic?

That's what a ship is, you know - it's not just a keel and a hull and a deck and sails, that's what a ship needs.

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Sunday, December 4, 2011 12:37 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by canttakesky:
Quote:
Originally posted by Magonsdaughter:
I'd probably say that having a tiered system of education and health, so that quality was determined by your wealth, will one day be considered barbaric.
Would you include food, shelter, clothing, transportation, communication, and legal representation as well? Or only education and health care?

In theory, it would nice if certain economic inequities didn't exist. But considering that I have higher quality food,shelter, clothing, transportation, communication, legal rep (if needed), education, AND health care than 90% of the people on earth, and I didn't make like Jesus and give all of my wealth to the poor, I must assume I don't REALLY believe in economic equity.

That wasn't a snark at you, Magon. Just thinking out loud re my own ambivalence on the subject.

CTS, there are lots of things I think as being wrong, but limited time and energy to put the thought into listing them all. I referred to health and education because they are the ones where I see the growing trend in inequality and I think they make huge impacts on the wellbeing and future potential of people. They divide people in a way that perhaps the others don't.

I'd prefer to live somewhere where the difference between the wealthy and the poor, and the opportunities afforded to each did not vary significantly. That is why I support government using taxation to fund really good healthcare and education systems. And yes, I'd also support government owned public transport systems and utilities - oh those were the days.

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Sunday, December 4, 2011 12:42 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by dreamtrove:

Here's how it works: Electrical current constricts the various structural fibers holding the brain together, which rips the brain apart from the inside. You're no longer depressed because you are zombified. No mental health goal is worth this.

Depression is not a disease, it's a vitamin deficiency. Take some 5htp, and possibly some pro-biotics.

Total and utter bollocks. Both your description of ECT nad depression being as simple as a vitamin deficienct. Honestly, is it lack of sleep. Do you know anyone who has had ECT? I do, a close family member. And no, not zombiefied. Suffered some short term memory loss.

I said it was a controversial treatment, but don't talk bullshit DT,

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Sunday, December 4, 2011 1:16 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

"A lot of psychiatric treatment is zombification one way or another. It doesn't matter if they do it electrically, or chemically (neuroleptics), or surgically (lobotomy). Their goals here are not to truly heal and give the person as much freedom and self-actualization as possible, but to make the person less annoying whatever the cost."

I was going to reply to CTSky but I've pretty much given up. She's extremely dogmatic, kind of like Rap, except holding different positions.

But if I HAD replied to her I would have said something to the effect that hallucinating, or being unable to get out of bed long enough to do anything for months at a time, or thinking fondly of suicide must just be another version of happy and healthy in her world.

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Sunday, December 4, 2011 1:24 PM

Strangely, Magon, I'm incredibly familiar with the field, and yeah, I do know two people who've had it, and I was slated to have it myself, until I sued to get control of my life back.

I also know about depression. It's a simple problem with a simple solution, devised back in the early '90s. (earlier if you count west african voodoo) It's a crime that it continues. (depression, not voodoo)

Here's the incredibly simple problem:

Depression is a lack of serotonin in the brain, caused by a breakdown in the system and resulting in the shutdown of neural pathways associated with perspective-based thinking.

SSRIs don't always work because SSRIs do not increase your serotonin level, they decrease your serotonin reuptake, which is one way your serotonin levels can get depleted, but not the only one.

Serotonin starts out life in the gut, as tryptophan. Certain probiotic bacteria can change tryptophan in 5-HTP, which is the only form that the brain will recognize (fortunately, you can also get 5-htp in powder form, as it's 40% of the west african griffonius seed by weight.)

Once the 5htp gets into the brain it is metabolized by the hypothalmus into serotonin. 95% of all depression cases are the result of a serotonin dietary deficiency. The other 5% can come from a variety of related causes, such as lack of metabolites (most commonly Vitamin B6) or less commonly necrosis in the hypothalmus, typically caused by high level heavy metal contamination.

I'm sorry someone you care about had to go through ETC, but that is how it works. It induces a grand mal seizure, which causes brain damage, that's the MoA. It's barbaric, and obsolete. You can choose to travel forward with this knowledge and not have someone else go through that, or you can invest yourself psychologically in the past and not see it, but I actually do know what I'm talking about in this.

That's what a ship is, you know - it's not just a keel and a hull and a deck and sails, that's what a ship needs.

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Sunday, December 4, 2011 1:31 PM