Who are they reporting to? by Wishimay

Or we could do what they're doing in Dubai, just walk up and take the goods from the bads. I mean, their rich and probably haven't had actual contact with the unwashed masses so they just shit themselves at the first sign of germs...

But, why waste money on guillotines, we're trying to be more fiscally responsible right? Oh wait, yer right. I AM running a little low on guillotines... I'm IN.

Hubby says he's in as long as we stop and pick up a cannon as well....

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Thursday, December 15, 2011 5:58 PM

Ok, weapons jokes outta the way.

What to do about it now??

I kinda feel since Time nominated "The protester"
as the person of the year that they were just trying to placate the angry...

Did anything get accomplished?

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Thursday, December 15, 2011 7:10 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Wishimay:
Did anything get accomplished?

I would say no.

:(

-----
"Christmas is a time when kids tell Santa what they want and adults pay for it. Deficits are when adults tell the government what they want - and their kids pay for it." - Richard Lamm

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Thursday, December 15, 2011 10:50 PM

PitcccchFORKS, getcher PitccccchFORKS heah!
Torches twelve for a dollah, whadda deal, whadda deal!
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/HonestJohnsDealership

Might I interest you in our FINE line of decapitative devices ?

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

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Friday, December 16, 2011 2:22 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:

In other news, guillotine sales are up. ;)

Karma is a bitch, so watch what you set up in the town square

Quote:
Originally posted by WishIMay

I kinda feel since Time nominated "The protester"
as the person of the year that they were just trying to placate the angry...

I concur. They should have just gone with "The protest" It logically follows that if a corporation is a person...

Frem, out in farm country, we already got pitchforks, but at this point, I'll be damned if I can tell you where it is. Fortunately, we have a one stop shop where we can buy more:

That's what a ship is, you know - it's not just a keel and a hull and a deck and sails, that's what a ship needs.

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Friday, December 16, 2011 4:46 AM

I've got a lovely story of corporate greed this morning... Hubby's a coal miner, see, and they all get bonuses for digging out more coal than expected. Hubbs got his this morning... $100. The mine across town ...$1200. As it turns out, "relatives" of the company opened their own little temp agency, which not only pays workers much less, they get a stipend from the "company" for the priveledge. Oh, and they don't give bonuses to the temps, but they factor in their hours worked versus coal dug, so they can technically lower everybody that IS eligible for a bonus so they are triple!!! dipping...And there'e been rumors that they've had people manipulate the scales so the coal doesn't get officially registered, but the company gets paid anyways.
Mine owner says if anybody fusses, mine gets shut down.
How do you fight shit like that???

And no, we can't leave just yet, and hubbs is too close to the five year mark where he gets double vacay...He's worked too hard ta give that up...

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Friday, December 16, 2011 5:27 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Wishimay:
How do you fight shit like that???

That's heartbreaking.

-----
"Christmas is a time when kids tell Santa what they want and adults pay for it. Deficits are when adults tell the government what they want - and their kids pay for it." - Richard Lamm

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Friday, December 16, 2011 7:44 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Wishimay:
How do you fight shit like that???

You call the IWW, and dispense with the corporate-run employee-pacification consortiums most folk these days call unions.

And then you get ready to play rough, if you have to - but again, well travelled ground, and so long as the Gov always, always comes in on the side of the corporate bastards (See Also: Blair Mountain), up to and including using the military to suppress those uppity peons, direct head-on resistance is all but futile, a union can fight a corp and their goons, but they can't fight the entire US friggin army and if they could, why not just take over ?

So a SUBTLE kinda hardball, although that varies on a case-by-case basis.

My direct ancestors bled for this, in Matewan and Blair Mountain, so I take it all kinda personal, you see.

-Frem
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Matewan
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Blair_Mountain
PS. You know what's just as bad in it's own way ?
Currently the corpies wanna demolish the memorial there and strip-mine the fucking place, what a slap in the face THAT is, you know ?

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Friday, December 16, 2011 8:34 AM

Well, they've got no problem with the rape and pilliage of actual people, ya think they're above dry-humping the bones, too...

Well, at least there is SOME good news today...

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/us-charges-ex-fannie-freddie-155050812.h
tml

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Friday, December 16, 2011 8:41 AM

I suppose it could be worse, he could be UNDER the coal instead of digging it for less...

http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/sideshow/train-hopping-couple-buried-alive
-under-coal-162959769.html

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Friday, December 16, 2011 9:14 AM

STORYMARK

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
1 in 2 Americans are now at or near poverty level or low income, but CEO pay increased as much as 40% last year.

Don't worry. The free market will fix it, right? It's magical and shit, I hear.

"Goram it kid, let's frak this thing and go home! Engage!"

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Friday, December 16, 2011 10:57 AM

Wish

With windmills. You fight it with windmills.

I just watched "The Last Mountain." Coal is a think of the past. If this industry continues, it will be with machines and slave labor, and it will destroy the Earth in the process. It's time to move on.

The film pointed out that already in 2009, the Wind industry was employing more people than the coal industry. There's tons of work that has to be done. Wind is generating so much power that the grid as it is cannot handle it. New lines will have to be built. More windmills will go up. This will require construction people, truck drivers, etc.

Tap into the future, don't stay tied to the past.

ETA: To the original post, they're preaching to a credit economy, in other words, to sheep.

That's what a ship is, you know - it's not just a keel and a hull and a deck and sails, that's what a ship needs.

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Friday, December 16, 2011 5:54 PM

Must just be Indiana, I've seen some windmills come DOWN here lately. It's nigh impossible to get people with equipment and nohow ta fix 'em here, I've heard. Meanwhile they open a new mine in the area about every six months or so. And yes I agree they are raping the planet. Do I see Indiana going green anytime soon? Yes, in six months when they plant the corn it'll be really green here, otherwise...not bloody likely...

Hubbs has got an electronic engineering degree, btw. We looked for five freaking years for something that would pay the bills, nothing pays like coal in Indiana...

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Friday, December 16, 2011 6:12 PM

MAGONSDAUGHTER

Quote:
Originally posted by Wishimay:
I've got a lovely story of corporate greed this morning... Hubby's a coal miner, see, and they all get bonuses for digging out more coal than expected. Hubbs got his this morning... $100. The mine across town ...$1200. As it turns out, "relatives" of the company opened their own little temp agency, which not only pays workers much less, they get a stipend from the "company" for the priveledge. Oh, and they don't give bonuses to the temps, but they factor in their hours worked versus coal dug, so they can technically lower everybody that IS eligible for a bonus so they are triple!!! dipping...And there'e been rumors that they've had people manipulate the scales so the coal doesn't get officially registered, but the company gets paid anyways.
Mine owner says if anybody fusses, mine gets shut down.
How do you fight shit like that???

And no, we can't leave just yet, and hubbs is too close to the five year mark where he gets double vacay...He's worked too hard ta give that up...

Unions, matey, unions. That is why workers take collective action - because they have some chance of addressing a major power imbalance.

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Friday, December 16, 2011 6:31 PM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up

Quote:
Originally posted by dreamtrove:
Frem, out in farm country, we already got pitchforks, but at this point, I'll be damned if I can tell you where it is. Fortunately, we have a one stop shop where we can buy more:

Unless you're Muslim.

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Saturday, December 17, 2011 8:41 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Magonsdaughter:

Unions, matey, unions. That is why workers take collective action - because they have some chance of addressing a major power imbalance.

Unions used to be a great idea, they kept people with little recourse from being screwed over completely. Now we have lawyers, and even ones that'll work for free. A lot of unions have de-volved into entitlement institutions where the workers no longer care, and being part of a union doesn't guarantee higher wages (haveta pay dues!), nor does it guarantee any amount of protection. Hubbs has worked for union reps that have been dirtier than the employers he needed protection from.

Also, I should add, when I said the "If anybody fusses, they'll close the mine" part, they were specifically referring TO unions. And Frem is right, that's a battle sometimes that has no good outcomes...

At least they haven't started charging US for eguipment at the company store... It's still a living wage, even if we're gettin screwed out of a portion of what's ours. They're openin a mine just down the road from us in 2014 that'll need 300 men, so I figure that's the perfect time ta sell, and find a new place to be........
Any suggestions?? It has to be somewhere south of the Mason Dixon because my kid's allergic ta cold, and here's too cold. By then she'll be outta grade school and hopefully mature enough to survive a move, not so sure right now (she's very sensitive to alotta things).

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Saturday, December 17, 2011 9:01 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Wishimay:
Hubbs has worked for union reps that have been dirtier than the employers he needed protection from.

It is an unfortunate fact that many unions no longer have the best interests of the workers at heart, and that they do not do what they are supposed to be doing.

-----
"Christmas is a time when kids tell Santa what they want and adults pay for it. Deficits are when adults tell the government what they want - and their kids pay for it." - Richard Lamm

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Saturday, December 17, 2011 10:54 AM

Quote:
Wish:

Hubbs has got an electronic engineering degree, btw. We looked for five freaking years for something that would pay the bills, nothing pays like coal in Indiana...

Trim your bills.

Not to be cold, but the earth didn't wrack up your bills, don't rape her to pay for it. You know I grew up poor, and am still poor, and handling finance is a lot of work, and some careful balancing, and sometimes I lose, but the system ain't really rigged against you.

A guy with computer skills can get a lot of work, including online, doesn't matter where he is. My neighbor works for an IT firm and makes a fortune. Myself, I have a bookstore, I make $12k a year. I consider myself lucky.

A few years back, some friends of mine were borrowing money to help them meet their bills, about $100 a week, most of it, of course, never came bouncing back. Then, one day, they asked me to come over and help them file their taxes. I said "$26K? Why are you borrowing money from me? Let me see those bills."

They had $1600 walking out the door in credit. They had credit cards, housing debt, school debt, even rented furniture. I said "What are you doing buying stuff you can't afford?" I mean, seriously.

So, my bills, presently, are damn close to zero which is on account of doing some accounting on my part to that end, and I get that folks have bills, but if you have to have *this* job to pay your bills because they're so damned high, then perhaps you should take a closer look at those bills and see if there isn't anything there that can't be killed.

Oh, and for the record, I don't exactly life in job central station here. It's basically Appalachia.

Okay... A quick search is showing me a pretty appallingly high wage rate for coal miners. WTF? $60-$70k? Maybe you can find a job like this in IT, you could online, but I'm not guaranteeing it as long as there's a billion people in India willing to do the job.

I think this is where if I were more Frem-like I might say if you're willing putting yourself on the other side, then be prepared to duck, but I'm willing to listen to the defense. What'ya got going on that makes ya this desperate for cash? (I know that's not the 1%, it's more like the 10%, but still.)

That's what a ship is, you know - it's not just a keel and a hull and a deck and sails, that's what a ship needs.

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Saturday, December 17, 2011 6:45 PM

What makes us desperate for cash...

Have you ever been down to $1.26 to your name? Have you ever eaten ramen noodles and tea for weeks because you were flat freakin broke, AND had a child to feed and $20 g's in student loans breathing down YOUR back? Do you have people to help you out when you need it and NOT hold it over you? Do you know Indiana has one of the most unavailable social services there is, and nobody gets unemployment easily?

You swim ...or you die, here.

You have no idea how frugal I am. Most people don't understand the lenghts I've gone to.

And FYI, electronic engineering has almost NOTHING to do with computer op or IT. Basically, what he went for was construction of computer chips and how to make them work. He doesn't know anything about computer function or programming. He didn't even want to go, but it really wasn't his choice, at the time. And he just happened to graduate in '98 right when the dot-com thing went south, and Indiana just didn't have the tech at the time anyway, but we couldn't leave either. By the time there were jobs here in that field he'd already been out of that field for 10 yrs and not really able to compete with the fresh faced set...

He'd already graduated when we met, I'dve said "don't go for the stupid degree" but it was too late for that...

Even if we don't work the mine job, there's a dozen other idiots who would gladly... $60 g's may be a lot to you, but he does risk his life EVERY DAMN night and deserves his fair share. Half the guys who do it for life are missin pieces, if'n ya don' get squashed first... Also, we all have medical complications that are expensive. $20 grand don't pay those bills.

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Sunday, December 18, 2011 4:37 AM

Wish,

I don't mean this to be a character assassination by any means, just a reality check

So sorry for snapping, but while the environment isn't a "you're with us or against us world" there is a limited sympathy I have for the other side. That limit is here:

If someone is working for fossil energy, particularly in MTR or Fracking, or connected or on the fringes of those same parent companies then the plea becomes, "come over to our side." If they are unwilling to do so, and appear to be in it for the money, then that sympathy is gonna evaporate real quick.

Quote:
Have you ever been down to $1.26 to your name? Have you ever eaten ramen noodles and tea for weeks because you were flat freakin broke,

Yeah, I grew up on that. At a penny an hour you used to be able to by a pack of ramen noodles a day.

Quote:
AND had a child to feed

No kids. Depends on the age of the kids I started working at 6.

Quote:
and $20 g's in student loans breathing down YOUR back?

That would be one of the reasons I was asking for, thanks for the answer. That's a reason to need cash, but you gotta recognize it's an expense, something that you purchased that you couldn't pay for. Hopefully the painful lesson sunk in, but you don't need 70 grand to pay that off.

Quote:
Do you have people to help you out when you need it and NOT hold it over you?

Nobody does, but you have people to help you out at all?

Quote:
Do you know Indiana has one of the most unavailable social services there is, and nobody gets unemployment easily?

Just on the off chance that you missed the memo, I'm a 100% free market advocate, and a pretty strong one, so I'm not about to be one over on the difficulty of obtaining social services.

Quote:
And FYI, electronic engineering has almost NOTHING to do with computer op or IT.

Sorry, my bad, I misread your post. Yeah, I did know that, but I read computer engineer. Electrical engineering a little harder to find work, but I'm sure that the wind industry and other alternative green energies are hiring scads of them, because there are a lot of issues with the power grid and wind, and a lot with solar and battery systems. Elec. engineer also says to me a) he knows this stuff to some degree, and b) he can learn, because engineers aren't dumb.

Quote:
Basically, what he went for was construction of computer chips and how to make them work. He doesn't know anything about computer function or programming.

There's lots of chip design work, but it's all in asia. Still, if he can learn chinese or korean, he might still be able to get a VPN job, I don't know. It's something to look into. I know people who got jobs in asia, but they moved to asia. The idea of China outsourcing to the US I find humorous, and oddly satisfying, but it's probably happening to some degree.

Anyway, you're right that they're unrelated fields.

Quote:
right when the dot-com thing went south

These are also unrelated fields, but talking points aside, that so-called bubble is now 7 times the size it was when it burst in the late '90s, and is still growing at twice the rate of the rest of the economy.

Quote:
Even if we don't work the mine job, there's a dozen other idiots who would gladly...

I hope you're aware that this is not a defense you want to use.

Again, that aside, you're asking for our sympathy and help with your plight, which we're prone to give because you're one of us, a browncoat. But if I were to say "I run a juvie rehab and..." you can bet that Frem would want to know exactly what I meant.

Quote:
$60 g's may be a lot to you

No. It's a lot of money. $60,000 is the 80th percentile for combined household income in the US. It's higher than that for an individual, obviously, and much higher for world income. It's an average income for places like Luxembourg and Dubai, and, well, there are no places like Luxembourg and Dubai.

Quote:
but he does risk his life EVERY DAMN night and deserves his fair share

Whoa.

That sentence is just full of concepts that don't connect for me. First, deserve. This is a concept that I think doesn't represent the way the world works. Perhaps it should, but it's a good start to recognize that it doesn't. That fact enables us to believe that something like Goldman Sachs exists.

Next, it's dangerous. Sure, hell, it's very dangerous. Your point being? I see no way in which dangerous makes something more noble. It's was hella dangerous to invade Iraq. I have friends who did it. Doesn't make it a good thing to have done.

If I say "you're sure you're not hurting the Earth?" and you say "Yeah, but it's dangerous, so I should be rewarded" I really don't know where to start.

Finally, fair share. There is such a thing? I don't recall anyone ever asking me if I wanted a fair share of the economy. I don't think that's even on the same planet as the way things work. I don't think that communism is about a fair share. (actually, little snark at the socialists here, if you check wikipedia's distribution of wealth page, you'll notice that all the countries on the "most equal" list are free market, and all the countries on the "least equal" list are commie. ;)

That said... $60k is a lot of cash. Objectively, I think you're compromising morals for money. Greed is not exclusively the province of the extremely wealthy. A kid who steals lunch money is greedy. Also, greed is not "the love of money to hoard for no good reason" that's miserly, and it is the original definition of the sin "Lust." The sin "Greed" is the pursuit of wealth against moral principals. You can have a damn good reason why you want the money, but that don't make what your doing "right" by extension.

As for moving, I think your problems are more internal than external. Indiana median household income is $40K. Inside the US things aren't going to change all that radically. Sure, I suspect CTS is living on an income similar to yours and considers herself "wealthy" so perhaps that's my answer if you want a radical change in expenses, try Peru. I'm sure you can't count on her to give it quite a plug.

Oh, and I missed this one:

Quote:
You have no idea how frugal I am. Most people don't understand the lengths I've gone to.

Fair enough, I don't. On the other hand, you don't know my measuring stick for frugal. After all I run a reasonably successful business that supports employees as well as myself which I started on $20. But there can always be "more frugal." Just this week I switched from boxed mueslix to mixing it up myself. I have to say the result is a vastly superior cereal, but also, it costs next to nothing. I think I have the radical christian right and the free market to thank for that (my suppliers are mennonites) Also, just this morning I bought a solar panel. For a house, I bought a place with a foundation and a frame, and then learned the rest of it (I figured I could have done this part too, but I think there's a point of diminishing returns when there are a lot of abandoned ones about.) Frugal is a land of almost infinite depth.

My humble suggestion is to check your bills and be brutally honest. $20k isn't a killer student loan. It's like $230 a month, which is like $2,420 a year. I could do that on *my* salary. If there's not enough in $60k to make ends meet, I suspect that there is a serious financial drain somewhere in your microecon. I don't know what it is, but I know it takes some brutal honesty with yourself and your husband.

That's what a ship is, you know - it's not just a keel and a hull and a deck and sails, that's what a ship needs.

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Sunday, December 18, 2011 5:03 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Hello,

Wish, I hope that your husband is able to negotiate for the best wage possible. I hope that you and your family are prosperous and happy.

Dream, I am glad that you have learned to manage your finances at a level of peak efficiency. I am sure we could all learn something from you in terms of cost-cutting.

On the other hand, I find your judgmental stance to be inappropriate. I appreciate that you are able to get all of your energy from green, renewable sources, and that all the products you buy were made using green energy and utterly moral methods. I know that you have never had any connection to the evils of the world, nor done anything to support them.

The vast majority of the world is not able to achieve this standard, however, and condemning someone for the lack seems wrong. I assure you that when the world decides to stop consuming fossil fuels, then the coal miners will stop digging it up. No accusing fingers need be pointed at this family who are simply doing the best they can to support themselves in the environment available to them.

I feel once again that you have displayed a nearly superhuman ability that the rest of the world does not possess. I hope that we can learn from you, but I don't think anyone will learn from you while the finger of accusation is levied against them. The natural reaction is to recoil.

--Anthony

_______________________________________________

"In every war, the state enacts a tax of freedom upon the citizenry. The unspoken promise is that the tax shall be revoked at war's end. Endless war holds no such promise. Hence, Eternal War is Eternal Slavery." --Admiral Robert J. Henner

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Sunday, December 18, 2011 5:35 AM

'Nuff said...

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Sunday, December 18, 2011 8:16 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:
Hello,

Wish, I hope that your husband is able to negotiate for the best wage possible. I hope that you and your family are prosperous and happy.

Dream, I am glad that you have learned to manage your finances at a level of peak efficiency. I am sure we could all learn something from you in terms of cost-cutting.

On the other hand, I find your judgmental stance to be inappropriate. I appreciate that you are able to get all of your energy from green, renewable sources, and that all the products you buy were made using green energy and utterly moral methods. I know that you have never had any connection to the evils of the world, nor done anything to support them.

The vast majority of the world is not able to achieve this standard, however, and condemning someone for the lack seems wrong. I assure you that when the world decides to stop consuming fossil fuels, then the coal miners will stop digging it up. No accusing fingers need be pointed at this family who are simply doing the best they can to support themselves in the environment available to them.

I feel once again that you have displayed a nearly superhuman ability that the rest of the world does not possess. I hope that we can learn from you, but I don't think anyone will learn from you while the finger of accusation is levied against them. The natural reaction is to recoil.

--Anthony

Anthony,

For once, I find you out of line. Not to mention snide, cocky, arrogant and self-satisfied.

Your logic is sufficient to equating those who voted for Obama to the solider who shot the girl in the yellow dress.

Perhaps I am a human who has things to say, and should not always be condescended to as if my assertion that I have something to say, in this case, as usual, to a question, asked to me, without this meaning that I have declared myself god, but rather, that I have declared myself human, and in that, worthy of answering questions.

As for admonishing people who are openly supporting my enemies, then absolutely I will. As I've always said here, I'm a one issue voter because there is only one issue that really matters. If we destroy the Earth, then all other issues are irrelevant. That is how I see the world.

Consider, for instance, to me, Frem's concerns are secondary. I am well familiar with them, remember I used to do the same thing, but they are not my major concern.

However, they are Frem's major concern, which is perfectly valid and fits *his* world view.

Yet, somehow, in spite of the number of times he has unleashed fire and brimstone onto people when he suspects them of being on the other side of that issue, I have never seen you accuse him of having delusions of godhood.

Your abilities to communicate without angering people have finally here hit a doubt in me, because you have angered one person, and that person is me. I think that I have a right to answer Wish's points, and to stand for what I believe in, and I do not think you can take that right from me.

As for recoiling, did it ever occur to you that perhaps I was not sucking up? As I said, I'm willing to take allies over enemies, but if someone is steadfastly placing themself on the other side and asking for my sympathy, then, no, they are not going to get it. I actually intended to make a statement. I think that I made it fairly clear:

Greed isn't only for the rich.

And damned straight I'll be judgmental about it.

Wish,

There's a large financial drain in it that is not listed in your picture. I don't know if you are aware of everything in you and your husband's finances, but there is no way that this adds up. Somewhere there is something that is sucking the life out of your family economy. $60,000 is an objectively high salary by any measure in the world. It's at upper middle class. If you're living a life of poverty it's because the money is flowing out somewhere else. And a $20,000 student loan isn't going to do it.

That's what a ship is, you know - it's not just a keel and a hull and a deck and sails, that's what a ship needs.

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Sunday, December 18, 2011 9:03 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:
I assure you that when the world decides to stop consuming fossil fuels, then the coal miners will stop digging it up.

I agree with Anthony.

DT, I hate MTR and Fracking and all that junk too. I hate environmental destruction. But damn, I still turn on my lights everyday, and fire my gas furnace, knowing full well where it comes from.

And because *I* do, Wish's hubby has a job. *I* am paying him to dig up coal. It is not his fault he has to eat and has a kid to feed.

It is not his fault he has to take huge risks to dig up that coal for me. It is not his fault that in our society, we believe that taking huge risks deserves monetary compensation.

It is not his fault that $60K doesn't go far in this inflationary economy, not after loans, mortgage, food, health bills, and a few modest comforts that we have learned to enjoy like having a computer and internet.

It is MY fault. Blame me.

-----
"Christmas is a time when kids tell Santa what they want and adults pay for it. Deficits are when adults tell the government what they want - and their kids pay for it." - Richard Lamm

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Sunday, December 18, 2011 9:55 AM

CTS

$60K is rich. Objectively so, in a worldwide way, and also locally, here in the US.

What people do for money is a matter of their personal moral and ethical perspective. I retain the right do disagree with that perspective.

"The Earth is yours, rape it" - Ann Coulter.

I aim to stop people with that perspective.

I also disagree that because people consume power, ergo, you must dig coal. The world is low on fossil fuels and more and more of the earth's surface is being defaced for their extraction. They are also obsolete.

That's why I suggested windmills and power lines. People use electricity, and someone with a conscience could still provide it, in fact, more people work for wind than coal today.

Anyway, this coal is in Indiana, you live in Peru.

I don't think we will get anywhere by not standing up against an entrenched industry that is willing to destroy us all.

If people really wanted money, blackwater is hiring.

That's what a ship is, you know - it's not just a keel and a hull and a deck and sails, that's what a ship needs.

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Sunday, December 18, 2011 10:13 AM

DT, you ARE being condescending, judgemental, and obnoxious.

We both know you live off-the-grid of society as much as possible, and that substantially reduces your expenses, but there's a lotta folk out there without that option, and/or if they tried to use it would bring the holy hell of the State down upon them for trying, ESPECIALLY in the region we're talkin about here, first goddamn thing they'd do is send in CPS and try to find a way to yoink their kids as retaliation for not playin ball the way society wants em to - none of us has a right to judge, which is why I don't.

Firstoff there's bitchass taxes that get cut out of that, not just the huge chunk before they even get it, but the nickle and dimery of everything from fuel and sales tax to additional taxes on damn never everything - then the hideous expense of keeping a car running and the paperwork in order, the registration-license-insurance-emissions-inspection scammery that just eats, eats, eats money, plus fuel and the tax on that, and I dunno about there but it's over three bucks a gallon HERE at the pump...
Pre-existing debt like student loans and mortgages take another chunk, and damned if imma blame people who were lied into the education=employment racket cause it WAS sorta true once upon a time, but you got that, plus medical insurance which is every bit as exploitive as car insurance cause them bastards collude on pricing to a prettymuch captive market, then there's keeping a house up and caring for children, food, clothing, school supplies, all the stuff that hideously expensive insurance doesn't cover, utility bills...

You have no idea, you've been 'away' from that world so long this stuff no longer seems to register with you - that AIN'T a lot of money, cause most of it goes right down the tubes to unavoidable, undodgeable expenses before it ever lands in a place where the victim of a debt-trap-wage-slave society can ever use any of it.

When YOU have to stand and be still to that Birkenhead drill - them I might be more forgiving of such a judgemental stance, but till then...

Stick to what you know.

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

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Sunday, December 18, 2011 10:27 AM

CHRISISALL

Just to say, me & the Missus made more money than we ever will again around 2007- 08, and had bills to no end, financial worries, stress...
We make less than half that now, and are better off. Why?
NO CREDIT CARD ACTION.
Credit nearly destroyed us, as it threatening to do to country.
But, living within one's means does no corporate credit institution any good, does it?

The basic beliefs of the American Dream need shifting. Or simple demolition.

@Frem, yeah, scams aplenty to suck on us no matter what. Insurance. That's a dirty word to me.

The laughing Chrisisall

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Sunday, December 18, 2011 11:41 AM

If condescension happened it wasn't intentional, but I please guilty to judgemental and obnoxious.

I agree about social services, as I just said in a previous thread, it's a devil's bargain. But to be fair, 60k will not get you on social services in any state. That said, as I said, I'm a free market guy.

Quote:
bitchass taxes

By all means there are, but I'm a little surprised to see you come out against taxing the rich [/snark]

Quote:
but the nickle and dimery of everything

This is actually what I was trying to get at. It's not a lack of money, it's a lack of management. They will absolutely nickel and dime you to death on everything. Just think about it this way: There are 300,000 corporations in the USA. Each one of them wants a piece of you. Add a couple million govt. employees that want to add to that.

The worst of it is financial products. Loans, mortgages, insurace, etc. just like taxes, only they go to corporations.

Quote:
damned if imma blame people who were lied into the education=employment racket

Not blaming, just trying to shake a little.

Quote:
You have no idea, you've been 'away' from that world so long this stuff no longer seems to register with you - that AIN'T a lot of money, cause most of it goes right down the tubes to unavoidable, undodgeable expenses before it ever lands in a place where the victim of a debt-trap-wage-slave society can ever use any of it.

Nah, I actually knew this. But you don't have to live that way, which is why I bother to shake people and say "hey, wake up, you're still plugged to the machine."

Quote:
Stick to what you know.

Not you too. Ah well. I guess I should duck out of here.

Ya gotta know that I knew everything you just posted just like you knew everything I did. I still don't have to support it. Not saying he's one of the MTR/Fracking guys killing the earth, but that I don't have to feel that those people are "trapped" at the paltry 60k. I mean, we know it's a lot of money, I just checked the statistics, that's how I know it was a top 20% income. But nothing is going to make me support something I don't believe in, just like you aren't going to cave to the emotional pleas of someone who needs that social worker salary and so has to steal kids from poor parents. I knew someone who had that job, and that's rough. But it don't matter how hard it is, just like it don't matter how dangerous it is to invade Iraq. The hardship, by itself, doesn't make it good.

At first I though she was asking for advice, so I gave it. My advice, look over those expenses, because that cash is leaking out somewhere. (And I've found from personal experience that you really don't know where until you actually stop and take a long hard look at everything that comes out of your account) But after all the back and forth I got the feeling she just wanted moral support which I'm not giving for something I don't support.

Chris

I really agree.

That's what a ship is, you know - it's not just a keel and a hull and a deck and sails, that's what a ship needs.

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Sunday, December 18, 2011 12:07 PM

CHRISISALL

Quote:
Originally posted by dreamtrove:
I've found from personal experience that you really don't know where until you actually stop and take a long hard look at everything that comes out of your account

I get that, and that you're genuinely trying to be constructive. I get curt sometimes my own self trying to make a point I'm impatient to make (Signy can do that as well).
Why I guess I can read past that in others to see the real point on occasion.

The diplomatic Chrisisall

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Sunday, December 18, 2011 1:04 PM

I guess I suck at doing the Frem-jibe at folks who need a little shaking to realize "okay, sure, that's the way it is, but it don't have to be like that."

That's what a ship is, you know - it's not just a keel and a hull and a deck and sails, that's what a ship needs.

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Sunday, December 18, 2011 1:08 PM

CHRISISALL

Quote:
Originally posted by dreamtrove:
I guess I suck at doing the Frem-jibe at folks

Dude, I would too. Somehow, only Frem can do Frem.

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Sunday, December 18, 2011 1:28 PM

I didn't make it clear here that the period of poverty I was referring to was about seven years ago, well before hubbs got this job, and when he got canned for a 'nuthin offense so they could cook the books to sell off this particular business. They do that in this state. Don't need a reason to can.
Back then we were only married a few years, had lots of debts, one credit card, and NO savings. It took several months to find another and by then we were past bankrupt, even though I took the first job I could get(ToyrUS, which SUCKED!) I spent more in gas, ect than was worth it.... Couldn't get unemployment. Didn't even qualify for food stamps, I forget the reason, but they usually deny EVERYONE the first time around...

I should mention I married my husband when he was working at McDonalds and we bought our rings at a pawn shop. I was never money motivated until we had a kid, and wasn't ready to have one, but I was sexually inexperienced and babies happen(I've figured out how it works, btw

) ... Trying how to figure out how ta pay for a child, when you're doing great to pay for yourself, is definitely a motivator... We do allright now, thankfully, because with my kid's cold allergy the house HAS to be kept warm. She can't go outside long in winter so she needs room to run here inside, and I can't trust others to watch her, they literally don't understand. I let my a relative keep her recently, and the hot water ran out in her shower when my kid was in it, and she is still recovering from rashes on her face, arms, legs... If she gets REALLY cold she breaks out in white pustules and can't walk from the pain... but I digress...

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Sunday, December 18, 2011 1:36 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Somehow, only Frem can do Frem.

I know! I wanna be able to do Frem too. But I'm stuck with my obnoxious CTS-ness.

-----
"Christmas is a time when kids tell Santa what they want and adults pay for it. Deficits are when adults tell the government what they want - and their kids pay for it." - Richard Lamm

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Sunday, December 18, 2011 5:32 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by canttakesky:

I know! I wanna be able to do Frem too.

That just didn't come out right.

Quote:
Originally posted by WishIMay:

poverty I was referring to was about seven years ago

Fair enough.

Quote:

cold allergy

Wasn't going to nitpick this before 'cause I thought you might be using it facetiously, but ya'know an allergy has to be to an antigen, right?

Anyway, no worries. Sorry about going off on ya there, it was Last Mountain spillover ;) That, and a wealthy whining instinctive reaction.

That's what a ship is, you know - it's not just a keel and a hull and a deck and sails, that's what a ship needs.

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Sunday, December 18, 2011 7:02 PM

Yes, I say "cold allergy" but it's not really appropriate. It's just easier to explain.

She is actually allergic to her own proteins which float to the surface of everybody's skin in reaction to cold (most allergies are protien based), in order to protect it from things like frostbite, hypothermia... A normal system disposes of them, but hers reacts to it with irritation. They actually have a new treatment for extra fat that freezes a VERY thin layer the same way. Supposedly, if she went into hypothermia, she could die, because her skin would register as massive trauma. Oh, it's called Urticaria (pronounced Yurt) BTW.... We only have recently figured this out because she kept getting rashes in summer sometimes too, and I never made a connection to COLD being in summer with A/C. DOH. Also, I'll admit I'm a protective mama that always made sure she was warm, it wasn't until recently that she started going off more on her own, and getting cold without me there to say PUT ON YER COAT MISSY!! that we started seeing it more. Several times went to the Doc. He kept saying Exzema and giving anti-biotics, and all it took was one look at the website for me to KNOW what it was, as the rash is very distinctive-especially the extreme reaction rash...

If she gets exposed to cold, sometimes we can ward some of it off by giving her benydryl before bed and coating her in hemp oil or spruce oil or plant based oil, because colligen based stuff doesn't help...

Now if you could just answer the question of why/how could somebody be allergic to THEMSELVES....

Boggles the mind.

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Sunday, December 18, 2011 7:06 PM

Try being actually sympathetic, and honestly, before snarking, ehe ?

And oh BELIEVE me I know the suck of working for ToysRUs - not only did I work there on overnight restock..
(diapers, baby food/formula and model train stuff were my specialties, I can STILL identify most of the first two by UPC code alone)
But at one point they strongarmed me into working the return counter the day AFTER xmas, which was to this day one of the most brutal assignments I've ever had, up to and including having to use a freakin cattle prod in self defense against some lunatic who tried to choke the life outta me - folks were a LOT more polite for the hour or two after they carried him off.

And they finally fired me for being "unavailable" for too many weekends, since I was army reserve and had to show up for drill - which is illegal of course but try provin that, and even if you do they'll just find some other trumped up BS to hang on you anyways, it just ain't worth it.

Although there was one of my more comedic moments - you know them huge overstock shelfs way high up on the outer wall of the store ?
I was filling one with fisher price bubble mowers, and the guy spotting the ricketyass ladder got called away by the manager for something, whereupon the wobbly thing slid and began to go over - and in desperation I grabbed the shelf and hung on for dear life as it fell away like a cut-down tree and landed with a hideous clatter, then the shelf creaks, and starts to bend, and I hear those horrible pop-crunch noises of the shelf supports giving just before it suddenly drops a foot and a half and snaps my grip, causing me to bounce-rattle-skitter all the way down to the floor (HOW I wasn't injured badly is a miracle) and I shake off the impact and look up JUST in time to see that ENTIRE shelf worth of bubble mowers, all thirty feet of it, come crashing down on my head like something out of a merry melodies cartoon.
I still kinda twitch when I see a bubble mower, cause of that.
Funny as hell in retrospect, but also one reason I didn't care so much that they fired me, neither.

ETA:

Quote:
Now if you could just answer the question of why/how could somebody be allergic to THEMSELVES....

It boggles me too, especially after recently having my own over-aggressive immune system go bonkers in response to acute febrile neutrophilic dermatosis and attack my own systems in response, something which damn near killed me.
I call stuff like that biological friendly-fire, and FWIW steroids like prednisone are also a useful emergency measure, but they do curdle the hell out of your thought processes while you're takin em, be advised.

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

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Sunday, December 18, 2011 8:01 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:

And they finally fired me for being "unavailable" for too many weekends, since I was army reserve and had to show up for drill - which is illegal of course but try provin that, and even if you do they'll just find some other trumped up BS to hang on you anyways, it just ain't worth it.

It boggles me too, especially after recently having my own over-aggressive immune system go bonkers in response to acute febrile neutrophilic dermatosis and attack my own systems in response, something which damn near killed me.
I call stuff like that biological friendly-fire, and FWIW steroids like prednisone are also a useful emergency measure, but they do curdle the hell out of your thought processes while you're takin em, be advised.

-Frem

I though hubbs was the only one ta get fired while on National Guard duty, from Home Depot. They conveniently lost his notification, and fired him, he threatened to get a lawyer and they gave him like, a $$grand, whoopee.

Avalance of bubble mowers, priceless

Ah, is that what you were in the hospital for a while back? I sympathyze, hon, that's rough stuffs. Are you doing allright these days?

You kinda remind me of a poster I saw of a headstone decribing how many times this dude was shot and stabbed, but yet he made it to 95.
Sometimes ya got no choice but to keep hangin in

I grew up with massive allergies, been on steroids a few times. They usually make me not sleep. Like at all. Like re-grouting the bathroom at 4 in the morning kind of not sleeping...

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Sunday, December 18, 2011 8:44 PM

Quote:
I though hubbs was the only one ta get fired while on National Guard duty, from Home Depot. They conveniently lost his notification, and fired him, he threatened to get a lawyer and they gave him like, a $$grand, whoopee.

Yah, it's a common problem, and often enough not really worth the fight over it.

Quote:
Avalance of bubble mowers, priceless

Oh indeed, worse was the security cam caught the whole thing and we saved a dub and ran it for the xmas party, that was a hoot, too bad I didn't think to yoink a copy, oh well.

Quote:
Ah, is that what you were in the hospital for a while back? I sympathyze, hon, that's rough stuffs. Are you doing allright these days?

I'm doin... okay - problem is it's one of them things that doesn't ever really go away, and being away from my "lair" will cause an increasing level of stress which WILL trigger a relapse, as I learned to my peril when trying to attend Youmacon - so I am essentially bound here, being away even for a few hours will start to trigger symptoms.

A fuller accounting of how it went down is here:
http://168.215.229.9/mthread.asp?b=18&t=48622

I don't get on well with conventional modern medicine, generally I need mad-science, and have a crew of doctors pretty good at it, thankfully.

Quote:
You kinda remind me of a poster I saw of a headstone decribing how many times this dude was shot and stabbed, but yet he made it to 95.

Hell my own doctor called me "essentially a Lich" this past week when we tallied all that was wrong to bust the chops of my insurance company with.

Quote:
I grew up with massive allergies, been on steroids a few times. They usually make me not sleep. Like at all. Like re-grouting the bathroom at 4 in the morning kind of not sleeping...

Yeah that too, but it wasn't as noticeable for me cause I am kinda nocturnal as it is, and already sleep badly due to pysch complications and having massive survivor-guilt type issues to wrestle with in the wee hours when all your sins come down upon you like a ton of bricks - conscience is the cost of being human.

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

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Sunday, December 18, 2011 9:41 PM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht

DT, I agree that coal mining is a problem.

Wish, I agree that DT was too hard and rude to you, lacking tact in the extreme. I'm glad you figured what was going on with your little one, that's got to be hard in Indiana, it gets pretty cold over there from what I hear.

Frem, I see you agree with me that DT was a bit harsh, even though he's right that coal mining is problematic. But I'll bet you money that if someone in here admitted to working for, say, Teen Challenge you'd be mean to them just like DT was mean to Wish. Just sayin.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

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Monday, December 19, 2011 2:36 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by RionaEire:
But I'll bet you money that if someone in here admitted to working for, say, Teen Challenge you'd be mean to them just like DT was mean to Wish. Just sayin.

Good point. I agree.

AND kudos for having the guts to take on Frem and call it like you see it. I don't think he'd tear you apart for it, but still, you were taking a chance. My respect for you just shot up sky high. :)

-----
"Christmas is a time when kids tell Santa what they want and adults pay for it. Deficits are when adults tell the government what they want - and their kids pay for it." - Richard Lamm

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Monday, December 19, 2011 4:26 AM

No worries, Ri. One of the reasons I come here is all the dissention. At least being here makes me feel like SOMEBODY is questioning SOMETHING. Not so much of that where I live.
I got no problem with no one

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Monday, December 19, 2011 4:40 AM

Well, I'm impressed.

That's what a ship is, you know - it's not just a keel and a hull and a deck and sails, that's what a ship needs.

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Monday, December 19, 2011 11:17 AM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht

Frem's my friend so I don't mind saying whatever I want to him. The Internet makes me bolder than I am in real life. In real life I don't like conflict and avoid getting in fights with people unless they catch me on a bad day. But the Internet is fun because you can say whatever you feel and know its okay and that people know I still like them.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

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Monday, December 19, 2011 1:12 PM