Big Damn Hero by dreamtrove

Good point, but I'll go further: It's the truth, it belongs to the world.

That's what a ship is, you know - it's not just a keel and a hull and a deck and sails, that's what a ship needs.

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Sunday, December 18, 2011 4:04 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by dreamtrove:
Bradley Manning is a Big Damn Hero. No matter what happens.

Yes. One of the most courageous persons of our age.

-----
"Christmas is a time when kids tell Santa what they want and adults pay for it. Deficits are when adults tell the government what they want - and their kids pay for it." - Richard Lamm

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Sunday, December 18, 2011 4:19 PM

Hero.
Real one.
Truth, Justice.

The laughing Chrisisall

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Sunday, December 18, 2011 4:54 PM

Keep the Shiny side up

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Indeed. We paid for that information with our taxes. It belongs to us.

Just like the information that Valerie Plame was a CIA agent? Cool. Robert Novak is exonerated.

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Sunday, December 18, 2011 4:58 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Geezer:

Just like the information that Valerie Plame was a CIA agent? Cool. Robert Novak is exonerated.

Not exactly the same, but, y'know, whatever.

The laughing Chrisisall

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Sunday, December 18, 2011 5:15 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)

I guess I missed Robert Novak's subsequent imprisonment and trial.

How'd it go? Was he convicted?

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Sunday, December 18, 2011 5:31 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
I guess I missed Robert Novak's subsequent imprisonment and trial.

How'd it go? Was he convicted?

This will be lost on AU, you understand?

The laughing Chrisisall

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Sunday, December 18, 2011 5:33 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Geezer:
Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Indeed. We paid for that information with our taxes. It belongs to us.

Just like the information that Valerie Plame was a CIA agent? Cool. Robert Novak is exonerated.

That would be in a way of being classified information, and as it was disseminated from the govt. to leak to as many press people as necessary to hit a total douche, by Mr. Karl Rove as a way of getting back at Joe Wilson for undermining the Niger-nuclear claim, and disabling the apparatus of US intelligence so that it would not interfere with totally bogus claims from lies told at the top...

No, wait, that would be treason. Pure and simple.

It's not that it's partisan, it's that the guy on the right in this case was a traitor. Got a lot of people killed in Africa.

I suspect if Bradass87 hasn't sent those files, we would still be in Iraq. Let's hope it gets us out of Afghanistan as well.

That's what a ship is, you know - it's not just a keel and a hull and a deck and sails, that's what a ship needs.

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Sunday, December 18, 2011 5:34 PM

Keep the Shiny side up

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
I guess I missed Robert Novak's subsequent imprisonment and trial.

How'd it go? Was he convicted?

Lewis "Scooter" Libby was. Libby was sentenced to 30 months in prison, a fine of US$250,000, and two years of supervised release after his prison term.

So if that was for the leak of one piece of information that (as SignyM noted) the taxpayers paid for, how long should someone get for hundreds of thousands?

ETA:

And since the taxpayers paid for the issuance of your Social Security Number, you'd be glad to post it here. Right?

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Sunday, December 18, 2011 5:37 PM

KWICKO

Quote:
Originally posted by Geezer:
Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
I guess I missed Robert Novak's subsequent imprisonment and trial.

How'd it go? Was he convicted?

Lewis "Scooter" Libby was. Libby was sentenced to 30 months in prison, a fine of US$250,000, and two years of supervised release after his prison term.

So if that was for the leak of one piece of information that (as SignyM noted) the taxpayers paid for, how long should someone get for hundreds of thousands?

Odd that you didn't say "Scooter Libby is exonerated", then.

BTW, how much time did Libby actually serve? How much of that fine did he pay out of his pocket?

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Sunday, December 18, 2011 5:45 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Indeed. We paid for that information with our taxes. It belongs to us.

We own nothing. In our names, with our money, but the beast is too big now, owing to no one. Bureaucracy & corporate mentality owns the American people, a behemoth that we created in its infancy in 1776, despite all the florid words sprinkled upon the Declaration.

It's the way of things.

The resignated Chrisisall

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Sunday, December 18, 2011 5:48 PM

Keep the Shiny side up

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
Odd that you didn't say "Scooter Libby is exonerated", then.

Not really. Novak came to mind first, plus, since he died with this hanging over his head, I though it'd be nice to get him off the hook.

Quote:
BTW, how much time did Libby actually serve? How much of that fine did he pay out of his pocket?

The jail time was commuted by Bush II, but the felony conviction, supervised release and 400 hours of community service were left in place, along with the fine. He was also dis-barred. Who knows who paid the fine. You can take up a collection for Manning if you want, and maybe if Manning is convicted, Pres. Obama can commute some of his sentence.

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Sunday, December 18, 2011 5:52 PM

Keep the Shiny side up

Quote:
Originally posted by dreamtrove:
That would be in a way of being classified information...

As was the information Mr. Manning released. He can say it wasn't all he wants, but if it was classified by the military or State Department as Secret or Top Secret, then that's what it is.

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Sunday, December 18, 2011 5:55 PM

Seriously, though do you not see anything heroic in Bradley Manning?

I find this an act of pure self-sacrifice for something he deeply believed was right, sharing the unclassified truth. Doing the job that the media was too cowardly to do.

As for Libby and Rove, this was an act of sheer cowardice. They were lying, and Plame-Wilson endangered the credibility of their lies, so they tried to ice their own people. That's just sick.

That's what a ship is, you know - it's not just a keel and a hull and a deck and sails, that's what a ship needs.

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Sunday, December 18, 2011 5:57 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Geezer:
if it was classified by the military or State Department as Secret or Top Secret, then that's what it is.

Wow, so simple! Thanks Geeze!

The laughing Chrisisall

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Sunday, December 18, 2011 6:45 PM

Keep the Shiny side up

Quote:
Originally posted by dreamtrove:
Seriously, though do you not see anything heroic in Bradley Manning?

Not so much.

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Sunday, December 18, 2011 6:51 PM

Keep the Shiny side up

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:
Originally posted by Geezer:
if it was classified by the military or State Department as Secret or Top Secret, then that's what it is.
Wow, so simple! Thanks Geeze!

It really is. When you accept a job involving classified information, you accept that you won't release it. From my experience with classified info, you're reminded over and over again of possible penalties. If it's not your job to decide if levels of classification are appropriate, you don't make that decision.

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Sunday, December 18, 2011 6:58 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Geezer:
Quote:
Originally posted by dreamtrove:
Seriously, though do you not see anything heroic in Bradley Manning?

Not so much.

We're at an impasse then. What if anything would you deem heroic?

Seems to me that the man sacrificed himself to advance the cause of freedom.

That's what a ship is, you know - it's not just a keel and a hull and a deck and sails, that's what a ship needs.

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Sunday, December 18, 2011 7:29 PM

FREMDFIRMA

He is far, far from alone in that, and the conduct towards whistleblowers from both the Bush and Obama administrations has been downright heinous, some examples...

Coleen Rowley
Thomas Drake
Russell Tice
Thomas Tamm
Mark Klien
Karen Kwiatkowski
Jeffrey Sterling

The list goes on and on, believe it.

But HERE is the rub, the one part of it everyone involved in regards to Manning seems to be ignoring, despite it being their proper JOB to know this shit.

§ 1034. Protected communications; prohibition of retaliatory personnel actions
http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/usc_sec_10_00001034----000-.html

In short, so long as Manning sent this information at ANY time, to at least one member of congress, which he did - it falls under protected communications and he is well within his rights to have addressed it even if other third parties recieved the information even simultaneously cause the law allows for that as a backstop against the possibility of being ignored, that's why this was written.

But of course when the rules become inconvenient for the powers that be, they get ignored, which again, makes the "rule of law" a complete farce and happens to be a primary reason why I both do not respect it, and happen to be an Anarchist.

Factually, this shouldn't even BE a question, as Manning was not only authorised by law, but explicitly ENCOURAGED by that law, to act in the exact fashion his conscience dictated.

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

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Monday, December 19, 2011 3:06 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Geezer:
Just like the information that Valerie Plame was a CIA agent? Cool. Robert Novak is exonerated.

Actually, this is a good point.

Not all taxpayer information should be made public.

Manning's leaks were important and necessary. But not only because it was paid for by taxpayers. Other criteria have to be in place as well to justify such leaks.

-----
"Christmas is a time when kids tell Santa what they want and adults pay for it. Deficits are when adults tell the government what they want - and their kids pay for it." - Richard Lamm

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Monday, December 19, 2011 3:09 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:

He is far, far from alone in that, and the conduct towards whistleblowers from both the Bush and Obama administrations has been downright heinous, some examples...

Coleen Rowley
Thomas Drake
Russell Tice
Thomas Tamm
Mark Klien
Karen Kwiatkowski
Jeffrey Sterling

The list goes on and on, believe it.

But HERE is the rub, the one part of it everyone involved in regards to Manning seems to be ignoring, despite it being their proper JOB to know this shit.

§ 1034. Protected communications; prohibition of retaliatory personnel actions
http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/usc_sec_10_00001034----000-.html

In short, so long as Manning sent this information at ANY time, to at least one member of congress, which he did - it falls under protected communications and he is well within his rights to have addressed it even if other third parties recieved the information even simultaneously cause the law allows for that as a backstop against the possibility of being ignored, that's why this was written.

But of course when the rules become inconvenient for the powers that be, they get ignored, which again, makes the "rule of law" a complete farce and happens to be a primary reason why I both do not respect it, and happen to be an Anarchist.

Factually, this shouldn't even BE a question, as Manning was not only authorised by law, but explicitly ENCOURAGED by that law, to act in the exact fashion his conscience dictated.

-Frem

Posts like this one? THIS is why I come to RWED. Wow. I did NOT know this.

-----
"Christmas is a time when kids tell Santa what they want and adults pay for it. Deficits are when adults tell the government what they want - and their kids pay for it." - Richard Lamm

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Monday, December 19, 2011 3:32 AM

Keep the Shiny side up

Quote:
Originally posted by dreamtrove:
We're at an impasse then. What if anything would you deem heroic?

The 9/11 first responders. Folks who work three jobs to put their kids through school. The Arab Spring folks in Tunisia and Syria. Stuff like that.

Quote:
Seems to me that the man sacrificed himself to advance the cause of freedom.

According to his defense team, he was unstable and concerned over gender-identity issues. They suggest that he was too troubled to hold a security clearance. Sounds as though what they're describing is more like petulance than sacrifice.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/pretrial-hearing-continues-as-p
rosecution-seeks-to-connect-mannings-disclosures-to-wikileaks/2011/12/18/gIQAa8j01O_story.html

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Monday, December 19, 2011 3:34 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Geezer:
According to his defense team, he was unstable and concerned over gender-identity issues. They suggest that he was too troubled to hold a security clearance. Sounds as though what they're describing is more like petulance than sacrifice.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/pretrial-hearing-continues-as-p
rosecution-seeks-to-connect-mannings-disclosures-to-wikileaks/2011/12/18/gIQAa8j01O_story.html

I read that yesterday.

I don't understand why his defense team is resorting to these arguments for his defense. "You put a mentally unstable person in charge. It's your own damn fault the secrets got leaked." Really? That's the best they can do?

I find that hard to believe.

-----
"Christmas is a time when kids tell Santa what they want and adults pay for it. Deficits are when adults tell the government what they want - and their kids pay for it." - Richard Lamm

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Monday, December 19, 2011 3:42 AM

Keep the Shiny side up

Quote:
Originally posted by canttakesky:
I don't understand why his defense team is resorting to these arguments for his defense. "You put a mentally unstable person in charge. It's your own damn fault the secrets got leaked." Really? That's the best they can do?

I find that hard to believe.

Yeah.

Nathan Hale - "I only regret that I have but one life to give for my country."

Bradley Manning - "I had issues, man."

Not quite the same.

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Monday, December 19, 2011 4:08 AM

Frem,

I think the defense is bogus, they're helping the prosecution to discredit Manning by sending him to a looney bin, the ideal solution for TPTB. If they kill him or lock him in Gitmo as they did, he'll become a hero for the cause, if they kill him he's a martyr and if they free him he's a rebel leader.

I.e., they know, but they're ignoring that fact.

Geezer,

First, what everyone else said, in the rest of the thread, this issue deserves better than to have me as its defense.

That said,

Quote:
too troubled to hold a security clearance.

Then the error in judgment is someone else's and not his.

Far from insanity being exclusionary from the field of heroism, I think it may be a pre-requisite. Sane people would balk before taking an act of pure self-sacrifice.

CTS, Geezer, see my above post to Frem as to why I think they chose that defense.

Quote:
Originally posted by Geezer:

Nathan Hale - "I only regret that I have but one life to give for my country."

Bradley Manning - "I had issues, man."

Not quite the same.

Is exactly what the administration wants you to think. I recall what Manning said when he got caught, to paraphrase: He wanted to get caught, because he knew what he did was right, and just, and within the law, and he knew the govt. would try to pin him for it, and in so doing they would admit to the world that they were wrong.

I think that's pretty noble, and I think it was successful. Clearly, when Obama said he wanted to "protect the whistleblowers" he meant

Speaking of which, how do you feel about the equation of Manning to the terrorists?

That's what a ship is, you know - it's not just a keel and a hull and a deck and sails, that's what a ship needs.

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Monday, December 19, 2011 5:08 AM

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:

This will be lost on AU, you understand?

Richard Armitage says what?

" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Monday, December 19, 2011 11:05 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by dreamtrove:
Speaking of which, how do you feel about the equation of Manning to the terrorists?

I feel this:

-----
"Christmas is a time when kids tell Santa what they want and adults pay for it. Deficits are when adults tell the government what they want - and their kids pay for it." - Richard Lamm

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Monday, December 19, 2011 1:58 PM

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by canttakesky:
Quote:
Originally posted by dreamtrove:
Speaking of which, how do you feel about the equation of Manning to the terrorists?

I feel this:

Every terrorist group listed, save for one.

Huh.

" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Monday, December 19, 2011 2:06 PM

CTS

Awesome

That's what a ship is, you know - it's not just a keel and a hull and a deck and sails, that's what a ship needs.

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Monday, December 19, 2011 2:35 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by dreamtrove:
CTS

Awesome

Totally agree.

The laughing Chrisisall

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Monday, December 19, 2011 3:09 PM

I particularly like the Frank Zappa quote at the bottom.

That's what a ship is, you know - it's not just a keel and a hull and a deck and sails, that's what a ship needs.

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Monday, December 19, 2011 3:27 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by dreamtrove:
I particularly like the Frank Zappa quote at the bottom.

Very appropriate.

The laughing Chrisisall

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Monday, December 19, 2011 3:47 PM

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:
Originally posted by dreamtrove:
I particularly like the Frank Zappa quote at the bottom.

Very appropriate.

And yet, 18 years after his death, folks STILL seem to want to come to this country. Crazy, huh?

" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Monday, December 19, 2011 3:52 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
Crazy, huh?

Yes.

The laughing Chrisisall

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Monday, December 19, 2011 3:59 PM

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
Crazy, huh?
Yes.

Maybe if some folks , who don't so much care for this country, might like to leave, so those who wish to come in could do so and find decent work?

Seems like a win/win , no ?

" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Monday, December 19, 2011 4:00 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
Maybe if some folks , who don't so much care for this country, might like to leave, so those who wish to come in could do so and find decent work?

No.

The laughing Chrisisall

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Monday, December 19, 2011 5:13 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:

Maybe if some folks , who don't so much care for this country, might like to leave, so those who wish to come in could do so and find decent work?

You're missing what it is that we don't like.
I'm from New York, or, if I used to be from Kentucky. Both are fine with me. I see no reason on Earth why Either New York or Kentucky should be beholden to Washington DC. I don't think that it's native to this land, I think it's a political power institution we inherited from europe, it's imperialist, it colonized us, and now it rules us, and does so through force of arms and threat of violence.

I'm not saying the concept of federal govt. needs to be abolished, but I would very much like to see it curtailed and drawn back within the boundaries given to it by the constitution.

IOW, if one of us has to leave, ie, the people or the the power in washington, I humbly suggest that it is the power which does not belong here.

That's what a ship is, you know - it's not just a keel and a hull and a deck and sails, that's what a ship needs.

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Monday, December 19, 2011 5:21 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by dreamtrove:
I'm not saying the concept of federal govt. needs to be abolished, but I would very much like to see it curtailed and drawn back within the boundaries given to it by the constitution.

No snark, just a remarkable reading that goosebumps me to this day:

The laughing Chrisisall

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Friday, December 23, 2011 11:42 AM

http://www.aljazeera.com/programmes/insidestoryamericas/2011/12/201112
23133535524719.html

Good debate on Bradley Manning.

-----
"Christmas is a time when kids tell Santa what they want and adults pay for it. Deficits are when adults tell the government what they want - and their kids pay for it." - Richard Lamm

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Friday, December 23, 2011 12:08 PM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

CTS, the poster is definitely awesome!

Chris, struck me as I watched:

"Why is Shatner sweating so much?"
"My gawd, he was a bad actor!"
"How can they "obey" words they can't even read? He just walks of like it's a done deal"

(that's just the way my mind works, sorry...)

I'm kinda confused, on one of the others; who exactly is it that hates America and should leave? I don't know any of those people...

Obviously I don't get out enough.

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Monday, December 26, 2011 12:37 PM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht

I don't know enough about the situation to have an opinion. All I know is that he told on someone who was doing something that was probably problematic and he was kept in a very unkind jail for a while and then he wasn't.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

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Monday, December 26, 2011 12:40 PM