Quote:

---

Originally posted by SignyM: You want to be REALLY free? Have democratic control of the currency. Make it possible to create MORE currencies. Have democratic control of the media. This focus on guns as the fount of all freedom? It's misplaced, and furthermore, it gets in the way of any talk about REAL freedom.

---

Quote:

---

Perhaps thier is away of creating a system like that. Personally I don't think there is.

We see that quote coming true rigth now. I don't believe that corroption is the problem. The problem is the voters let it happen. We vote in the people who promiss the most, even if they have questionable motives. Thats on us and no one else.

---

Quote:

---

From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship

---

Quote:

---

and I have to disagree with you too Byte. There have always been good alternate candidates on the ticket. Many of them have been third party, some of them have been Democrats (people like Russ Feingold, who voted against the so-called Patriot Act) and a very few have been Republicans. There is no lack of honest candidates on the ticket.

---

Quote:

---

Originally posted by Bytemite:
The system is rigged and has been since our oh-so-exalted founding fathers rigged it.

I get angry with this argument that it's the voters fault, because it's like getting angry at a victim of human sex trafficking for not choosing the right rapist. When people abuse a position entrusted to them, it's the fault of the person doing the abuse, not the victims!

You can say the system is flawed because it's predisposed to allow such people into power, and that the voters vote for them because they really aren't given any other choices, but beyond that I *have* to disagree on principle. It's not the fault of the voters that we have such craptacular corrupt candidates, it's the fault of the system, the money that created the system, and the politicians THEMSELVES.

I mean, you really think that The People are voting to raid the treasury for themselves? The raiding is being done by corporations, the military, and politicians, not The People. Our elected officials created a bill so WE would pay more money to the INSURANCE companies as a collective, this was the "big fix" for our broken insurance and medical care system, I hardly see the insurance companies giving money back. Parts of our political system are pushing for tax breaks for the rich, which inevitably means more of the tax burden falls on the middle class, the other side has it's head so far up it's backside that it's allowing that same nonsense because they benefit from it too. And I'll concede Social Security is broken and in need of fixing, and it's a sacred cow for voters that probably won't ever get fixed, but it plus other welfare currently represents only 8% of the non-discretionary spending (admittedly, it's projected to eventually exceed our GDP). Added with Medicare and Medicaid it's 36%. So if the biggest cut of the pie going back to the people only represents 36% of spending, where is the rest going?

Your views are so alien respective to mine that I can not understand how you arrived at them. No, I must disagree, the old argument that the flaw of democracy is the common people voting selfishly completely IGNORES how wealthy people take advantage of such a system (corruption). You'll find that the impacts of the later are much bigger and much more serious.

---

Quote:

---

I don't know where you came up with your % of non-discretionary spending but Medicare, Medicaid and SS are the non-discretionary spending programs. They make up all of the non-discretionary spending. They are because they are paid for by payroll taxes.

---

Quote:

---

We have the choice of canidates and if not happy we have the option to run ourselfs.Money and the media can only affect the campaigns when the voters allow it.

---

Quote:

---

If people don't do there own research and are just influenced by adds and the media it is their fault.

---

Quote:

---

Originally posted by canttakesky:

Yes.

]No.

Core planets in the verse are a police state. The Alliance is a police state. But it is a very nice and comfortable police state for most people living there.

Outer planets are not a police state. But they have people like Patience ruling the moons, and Reavers marauding everyone. Should we wish that the Core Planets become like the outer ones? No.

Most people in the world are very happy with police states. There is no reason for them to want to be "free." Freedom is not all that great, if you look at it carefully.

I don't want my country, the USA, to become a police state. But that is a personal preference.

---

Quote:

---

Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
... the same tired old saw about how people are naturally wicked and need to be leashed by their so-called betters for their own good.
...
(1) We've had this discussion, all the supposed studies that indicate such a thing, Sanford, Milgram, etc -

---

Quote:

---

Originally posted by Wulfenstar:


Still waiting to hear how you expect to disarm the people... Sure, it worked in Australia, and Britain, and they are working on it in South America..

---

Quote:

---

Originally posted by Bytemite:
Blah, that was a slip, but you know what I meant. Very little of the money being put into the system (discretionary and non-discretionary) is going in any way to benefit the general public. Our roads, infrastructure, and education system are going to hell because of it.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2010_United_States_federal_budget

(Also, looks like I was right the first time when I said Social Security was about 20% of total spending, and misread the thing, and edited my previous post to 8% and 36%. So I apologize for that, but I think the point still stands. If the public is raiding the treasury, why isn't all of it being fed back into the public? And that's not even getting into the fact that often programs like medicare, medicaid and social security are dipped into to pay for other programs, which leaves less coverage for people on them, so even the official budgetary reports are inaccurate)

Complain all you want about dumb voters believing the lies, rhetoric, and manipulations of politicians, but the system put them into a place where they have to worry about money because it seems to them like a lot of it is being taken away, and various practices intended to increase debt for individuals and reduce competition on the market only makes things worse.

And that's even going on your assumption that the voting system is honest... Which I'm pretty sure it's not, and I'm also sure that if TPTB don't like an outcome, they'll throw it out and do what they want.

Just because someone falls for a con doesn't mean they're anywhere as NEAR to blame as the scam-artists.

Besides, it's not like the politicians actually ARE going to lower taxes for the middle class... Though as I said, they'll do everything they can to lower taxes for the elite.

So once again, explain to me how the selfish voters are raiding the treasury for themselves when so much of the money is diverted elsewhere?

---

Quote:

---

Originally posted by Bytemite:
Try it. Let's see how far you get.

---

Quote:

---

Originally posted by Bytemite:
This is like saying members of a cult are to blame for their brainwashing, not the cult leader.

---

Quote:

---

Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
Damn, Byte has left me with naught to say but this.

Plato was fulla shit, he was a goddamn administration apologist, shovelling excuses and demonizing the masses in much the same fashion as Hobbes - the same tired old saw about how people are naturally wicked and need to be leashed by their so-called betters for their own good.

An argument always, ALWAYS made by some nimrod fuck with a leash in the other hand and pretty obvious intent about who should be holding it.

Worse, it's a LIE, and a proven one, every ounce of actual scientific research into the topic(1) has proven this is a base falsehood and yet the myth continues cause of clueless idiots spouting what they've been taught to say instead of thinking it through.

And frankly, I expected better of ya, Nick.

---

Quote:

---

Just an aside. Milgram wasn't trying to prove people were naturally wicked and need to be leashed. He was trying to prove people were naturally obedient and don't need much of a leash at all.

---

Quote:

---

The thing is that I disagree about the blame for someone gettign scammed. Someone that falls for a con is just as much to blame as the con artist.

---

Quote:

---

As far as the vote not being fair, you would have to show me concrete evidence for me to believe that. Yes some fraud has gone on, but for there to be some overriding power that controls the outcomes it would take more people then you could ever keep in check.

---

Quote:

---

In many ways they are.

---

Quote:

---

Originally posted by dreamtrove:
But when it came to the actual stopping, Stanley Milgram was singularly uninterested. That was his impression at least.

---

Quote:

---

Originally posted by m52nickerson:
I'm not saying that people need to be leashed. I'm saying people are not paying attention, or they are not paying close enough attention to fully understand what is going on. Even those who are paying attention hardly do anything about it. Hell some can't even be bothered to sign a petition to get an independent on the ballet.

In the end people let themselves be leased or conned because it is so much easier.

---

Quote:

---

Throughout the history of the United States Congress there have been times when members of either chamber have refused to seat new members. Article I, Section 5 of the United States Constitution states that, "Each House shall be the judge of the elections, returns and qualifications of its own members, and a majority of each shall constitute a quorum to do business; but a smaller number may adjourn from day to day, and may be authorized to compel the attendance of absent members, in such manner, and under such penalties as each House may provide." This means that members of the House of Representatives and of the Senate can refuse to recognize the election or appointment of a new representative or senator. They can bar the individual outright or refer the matter to a committee for inquiry

---

Quote:

---

Originally posted by Fremdfirma:

Yanno, all of those experiments kinda pre-vetted their victims after a fashion and do not suffer from a real-world result I call roadblock effect.

---

Quote:

---

but I assure you Byte, Mikey and HKCav at the least will understand.

---

Quote:

---

Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
That's a malady you don't seem to suffer, and I am not sure you inherently understand the depth that that compulsion,

---

Quote:

---

Originally posted by Bytemite:
It's like that experiment with the two competing kid camps. Normally people only bring up the Lord of the Flies scenario, they never bring up the one where the kids resisted the goading to fight with each other and worked together, or the one where the kids got so annoyed with the experimenters that they actually turned on them torches and pitchforks style.

---

Quote:

---

Originally posted by Bytemite:
Interesting. That does suggest that was less so much the authority issue, and more psychological investment.

---

Quote:

---

Originally posted by canttakesky:

Quote:

---

Originally posted by Bytemite:
Interesting. That does suggest that was less so much the authority issue, and more psychological investment.

---

Excellent point.

A good way for Milgram to have controlled for that is to have a control group where the subjects had to zap the "learner" at max voltage right from the start. No psychological investment, only obedience.

He might find people aren't *that* obedient.

-----
Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

---