Ron Paul and 'Honest Rape'... by Kwicko

I guess that set me off. My apologies.

I will try to respond, but it's getting rather late here. I probably shouldn't even be up right now.

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Wednesday, February 8, 2012 4:28 AM

DREAMTROVE

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Definitely, in a culture with a derth of young children and worries about the future of the "tribe" (whether conscious or not) or a higher risk of childhood mortality, there will be more importance placed on fetuses.

No kidding. Nazis are killing 1/3 of the kids, in some places, 1/2. When you go to a school you taught 20 years ago that now has half as many kids as it did then, it really is like the RTL ads. I drive by empty playgrounds all the time. Sure, these schools merged, two became one, but our one school is now the same size that both were when I was a kid.

To see this, you have to be able to abstract. The opponents' arguments are always based on a highly individualized look. It's like the 2a thing, highly individualized, everyone should have a gun. I was recently reading a post from a christian forum where the mother was arguing in favor of her using the gun as a parenting tool to threaten the children when they misbehaved. I can see no way in which this might end badly.

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Abortions happened all throughout history

Abstract out of the individual. A lot of things happen on an individual level but not as statistically significant. There are 1000 rapes in South Africa for every one in Kenya, and if you don't abstract to the statistical, you could argue that therefore Kenya has as bad a rape problem as South Africa.

Abortion was always practiced for the health of the mother and always will be. That pro-choice argument is completely facetious.

What changed was in 1920 the eugenicists decided to use abortion as a weapon against target populations. The number of deaths grew rapidly and skyrocketed after WWII. Since WWII, the death toll has pass a billion, and is now larger than any other form of violent death, and larger than the total casualties of all parties for all wars since the beginning of time. Considering that the perpetrators outright said it was a weapon, intended to use it that way, and are still at it, then it's very safe to say that as a population, children are under attack.

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But it's never exactly been accepted until recently.

Yes, though the numbers were growing rapidly before it was legal, because, though it was not accepted, proponents were out making the case on an individual level with propaganda.

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it's the potential to BECOME a child

Sure. The point being that there is a course on its path to becoming human, and birth is an arbitrary point on that path. The point when the umbilical cord withdraws is significant, but probably not as significant as the end of weaning. 24 weeks is an even more random point. I concur that it's a process that starts at implantation, and ends at the full selfawareness which is probably around 2 or 3.

Frem,

I doubt you really believe that, but as a psychological trick it will work on this crowd because they're not very pensive. I worry sometimes that your arguments assume that of the target audience.

Sig,

Have I not defended the lives of muslims here? Or denounced their killers? Am I kind to Bush or Obama?

Mike,

You are incorrect. Nazis may choose to support whomever they wish, but the leaders of planned parenthood at least until 2007, were actual nazis. Ron Paul is not an actual nazi. He's not even a socialist.

HK

Loaning money at interest is IMHO a greater evil, I think you can logically get here from there. Slavery is a contract, it's modern inception was the seven year mortgage. That grew into indentured servitude and then slavery. The free will to sign this contract was removed in 1740, which logically is not that different from conscription. (If you wanted to argue conscription as the greater evil, I might take that, since it is enslaving and forcing to murder, rather than forcing to labor.)

Not to lessen slavery at all, I think that slavery is probably the most common state of people today, it's just that the masters have become more clever at building the contract, and hiding the chains. (another potentially greater evil is prison, since that is slavery in a cage, and to get there, all that has to happen is someone's word, a cop, a North Korean gestapo boot, etc.)

But these aren't why debt trumps slavery. It is that debt=slavery, but it can be applied to other thing besides an individual. It can be a nation, or an animal, even a piece of land. The entire earth can essentially be placed in debt, and then destroyed to pay for itself, which is the greatest evil that exists.

Anthony,

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The human being that we need to protect is the mother.

First and foremost, of course. But abortion, planned parenthood et al, are far more of a risk to her health than childbirth.

Magon,

I don't think you want to have this argument, especially in pictures.

1) If you abandon a baby at a year, or two years, it will die. By your logic, it is okay to murder a small child, also an invalid, and probably the injured and some mentally ill, old infirmed or paralyzed.

2) If you are opposed to murder, don't kill anyone; if you are opposed to genocide, don't commit one. This solves all the world's problems, right?

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poor women are not the only ones to procure abortions.

3) Statistically they are the overwhelming majority.

In pictures, still legal to murder this dude:

ETA: I ran into this appalling statistic in looking up the rape numbers: There's actually a place that's *worse* than South Africa: Lesotho. In lesotho the rape rate is nearly the same as the population. That means one per person per year. If all victims are female, than that's once a year. If all the victims are women of childbearing age, that's everyone, once every three months. Assuming that some people are targeted more than others, some women are being raped on a monthly or weekly basis, and this is a social norm. I suppose this sort of thing should we should bear in mind when considering the alleged human rights abuses of some country neocons want to invade, sort of like how in invaded Iraq we ignored the abuses of Saudi Arabia. Ironically, Lesotho is also a monarchy. I see we sent Lesotho $300 million in aid. I wonder where it went.

That's what a ship is, you know - it's not just a keel and a hull and a deck and sails, that's what a ship needs.

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Wednesday, February 8, 2012 6:51 AM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Quote:
Anthony,

Quote:
The human being that we need to protect is the mother.

First and foremost, of course. But abortion, planned parenthood et al, are far more of a risk to her health than childbirth.

Hello,

I am personally aware of a time when that was not the case, so you are certainly incorrect in this blanket statement.

But this is not merely an issue of health. Health is not the only thing we are protecting.

We are protecting the individual from the state. A state which would require that organs and blood be harnessed to sustain someone's life against the will of the donor. I maintain that this is a strictly individual choice, and not one for the state to make.

--Anthony

_______________________________________________

"In every war, the state enacts a tax of freedom upon the citizenry. The unspoken promise is that the tax shall be revoked at war's end. Endless war holds no such promise. Hence, Eternal War is Eternal Slavery." --Admiral Robert J. Henner

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Wednesday, February 8, 2012 9:47 AM

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

"This cuts straight to the point of privacy. Do you, in consultation with a medical professional, have the right to decide what happens to your body?"

It seems like such a 'bright line' argument. But I don't find it to be one. The government is already involved. They regulate hospitals, drugs, devices, qualifications etc. I think there's a lot of grey area in between absolute privacy and complete government control.

I think government has a role to play that has been and can be very beneficial, and in some cases I believe it should expand its role. For example, the reason we no longer have sawdust in coffee, arsenic in nostrums, and hexavalent chrome in antiseptics is due to the FDA, the USDA and other agencies. I would like the government to expand its testing into supplements, which are now often being amped up with banned pharmaceuticals. I would like to see the government statistically study diagnosis (expert systems) and treatments. For example, Britain recently did a study on back surgery and found there were NO reliable statistics - at all! on its efficacy and safety, despite years of history and thousands of patients. Overall, statistical studies have the greatest potential to help get the most accurate diagnoses and the best treatment to the greatest number of people the fastest.

I don't think we should be leaving complete control of dx, rx and tx in the hands of the private dx, rx and tx industry. They have too much to gain and too much incentive to prey on people who have no means of evaluating their claims.

So what we are discussing, I think, is in that vast grey area, WHERE do we draw the line, and why? And how much are we willing to spend to make it happen?

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Wednesday, February 8, 2012 10:41 AM

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According to the UN, Lesotho has the highest rape rate of any country (91.6)

Is that 91.6 percent? Yeesh.

I notice they somehow have the highest literacy rate in Africa. But they have an HIV/AIDS incidence of 23.3%, also one of the highest in the world, and life expectancy is 40 years.

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Wednesday, February 8, 2012 11:10 AM

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I was speaking a little broader about how I what I have heard some anti abortionists say about the process of pregnancy.

Pregnancy is... A somewhat gross biological process, IMO. So I'm probably not the best person to talk to about it. Considering what I also think about infants, I don't see it as particularly magical.

Generally I leave it at "it's important for non-egg-laying reproduction."

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The idea doesn't thrill me, but if it were developed as an option, it should be just that, an option of choice. I would still of course argue for termination of the fetus to be a choice.

That is... acceptable, as I am not capable of seeing all possible scenarios, and some fetuses might very well require termination. Such as if the fetus is malformed and could not survive even with medical intervention or quality of life was otherwise a serious issue. Most other scenarios I could imagine only need to relieve the mother of the burden or dangers of pregnancy, and so otherwise the fetuses might be candidates for incubation.

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And I adore babies.

Frem posted a comic once that pretty much sums up my reactions to an infant. Other than the THROWING part, anyway.

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They no longer exist when they have been terminated. And I did say "except perhaps to your parents who may have had hopes and dreams for their children".

I guess I'm thinking of this from my "incubation potential" perspective, or maybe my "stem cell and/or IVF research" perspective. So I don't see it as they stopped existing, or that they never really existed because they were terminated.

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Wednesday, February 8, 2012 11:18 AM

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

Byte

"And it's not a child, it's the potential to BECOME a child, >>> but it is alive <<<, which is an important consideration for me."

Well, yes, life comes from life, until you go back to the very beginning. Once it was mentioned to me, it has always been an awesome idea to think that I have a direct unbroken line back to the very first life on the planet. In that context, I'm not too troubled by the pruning of individual branches, not even my own, which will certainly happen.

Also, I do want to say that overall, at 7 billion or so and counting, the human species isn't in any great shortage of DNA variations.

HKCavalier

"But there's no push back against abortion until modern times. None. It was a non-issue."

I think back when, people knew life was hard and survival always in doubt. Pregnancy and birth were difficult mysterious 'woman things', and people accepted that sometimes, difficult decisions had to be made.

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Wednesday, February 8, 2012 2:43 PM

Until the horrible plague, nuclear war, and other such near-extinction events.

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Wednesday, February 8, 2012 2:45 PM

FREMDFIRMA

Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
Frem posted a comic once that pretty much sums up my reactions to an infant. Other than the THROWING part, anyway.

http://lackadaisycats.com/exhibit.php?exhibitid=301

Seriously, what *IS* it with people that they automatically ASSUME you wanna hold their flailing, stinking, puking bundle of "joy" - umm, thanks but no, I'll admire it from a DISTANCE if you please...

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

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Wednesday, February 8, 2012 3:00 PM

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
Until the horrible plague, nuclear war, and other such near-extinction events.

Yeah, well, that's a genetic bottleneck caused by small population numbers numbering anywhere from a few dozen individuals to a few thousand. And no amount of genetic diversity now is going to help then.

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Wednesday, February 8, 2012 3:23 PM

DREAMTROVE

Anthony,

I meant for us, now. I think I stated earlier, perhaps in this thread, that it was the case for developed nations. Third world countries are the opposite, though it varies. In some third world countries abortion death rates are appalling. It depends on the nature of available after-care, which is some places are non-existant. Statistically 18% of abortion patients will suffer a hemorrhage within 24 hours. This is why these should be done in a hospital, not a walk-in clinic, because they need to be monitored overnight. If there's no after care available, things can get really bad, and in some african countries abortion related deaths become a major death risk for women. What to make of that politically is another matter, since abortion is illegal in almost every country on the continent. Would legalizing it make it better, I don't know, because if the healthcare system did not improve, and the number of procedures went up, I could easily see it getting worse.

But the healthcare issue and the moral question should not be muddled with one another.

As for protecting the individual from the state, surely the individual is at more risk if there is an orchestrated effort to exterminate them. Ultimately, yes, there should of course be no laws, there is a threat to the practice of medicine as well if there are laws allowing the govt. to control medicine. That said, organizations like planned parenthood are a threat as well, a de facto penny ante govt. if you will, accountable to no one. It bothers me that they receive govt. funds, and it bothers me that they operate at all, but I'm not sure where I stand on that. If one were to ban them, than how would one enfore the ban? I suspect that the organization is essentially a neonazi group more subtle than a militia, but that in fact we might be stuck tolerating neonazi militias as well if we take a purely libertarian stance on who can do what.

Byte,

yeah, someone noticed. I saw 88% but that was from a few years ago. It's one rape per customer, only we all know it's not. It's girls from the age of 0-30 probably. Remember the baby-rape myth, though I don't know how serious to take that, as our media makes things up, I also know that the myth about eating a pygmy curing aids, giving you magical powers, etc. led to the eating of a million pygmies, including the most bizarre disgusting crime ever: The rape-and-eat. (Ew)

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Pregnancy is... A somewhat gross biological process

As opposed to what? Biological processes are all about gross. Face it, we're made of undulating tubes of goo. The magic is that at the end there's an extra human, which is hard to figure otherwise.

Frem,

lol.

Oh, and what it is, is evolution. They're programmed to find their newly spawed glob of goo to be the absolute perfection of the universe, with it's roaring intellect that leaves even baby calfs making dumb human jokes.

That's what a ship is, you know - it's not just a keel and a hull and a deck and sails, that's what a ship needs.

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Wednesday, February 8, 2012 3:40 PM

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

That you figure Planned Parenthood to be a Nazi organization will never cease to amaze and amuse me.

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Wednesday, February 8, 2012 4:28 PM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

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Anthony, I meant for us, now.

Hello,

So did I. My second son was a serious health threat to his mother, and it was difficult to find an abortion facility that would perform a late-term abortion even though it was medically necessary. Never mind the atrociousness of protesters labeling my ex-wife a murderer for committing the sin of saving her life at the expense of a vegetable.

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But the healthcare issue and the moral question should not be muddled with one another.

Agreed.

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As for protecting the individual from the state, surely the individual is at more risk if there is an orchestrated effort to exterminate them.

That's a pretty bizarre point of view, to my mind. Suffice to say, legalizing abortion gives the choice to the individual. Outlawing it takes the choice away (or makes it exceedingly dangerous.) So shall I be more concerned over your hypothetical genocide, or the concrete reality of the state exerting absolute control over the body of the individual? I think I shall fear the latter. It is at least a proveable danger, and not an imagined one.

--Anthony

_______________________________________________

"In every war, the state enacts a tax of freedom upon the citizenry. The unspoken promise is that the tax shall be revoked at war's end. Endless war holds no such promise. Hence, Eternal War is Eternal Slavery." --Admiral Robert J. Henner

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Wednesday, February 8, 2012 4:38 PM

Frem: That's the one.

1kiki: Genetic diversity couldn't hurt.

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Wednesday, February 8, 2012 5:16 PM

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

I'm all for genetic diversity, but we'll never be able to compete with bacteria.

Also, humans had their genetic bottleneck about ca 72,000 years ago when the super-volcano Toba erupted and the human population was reduced to a few thousand people scattered in small groups over Africa. Anyways, with such a small genetic pool, humans really aren't very diverse to begin with. I don't think that reshuffling such limited elements is going to get much.

I was going to ramble about genetic diversity of humans v chimpanzees v gorillas - but then I realized this is getting far far off topic. So, uhm, going to bow out for now.

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Wednesday, February 8, 2012 6:18 PM

DREAMTROVE

Kiki,

Study history sometime. Sanger and Stokes were part of the international eugenics society, and worked together with each other and future nazis on eugenics strategies. Marie Stokes, an avid admirer of Hitler, who would later send him love letter about the glory of the german race. In 1920, she set up Controlled Parenthood of Britain, with the help of her american ally Margaret Sanger, fellow eugenicist and white supremacist who would later pen several articles and books on eugenics extolling the genetic superiority of the german race and the need to exterminate slavs and negroes. The following year, in 1921, Sanger would set up her own american version which would later be called Planned Parenthood.

At a summit in nazi germany a few years later they constructed their eugenics strategies with assistance from the German govt. The cooperation continued through the war, and after Germany's defeat, Sanger teamed up with american white supremacists to found "the negro project" about which she admitted he goal was to exterminate the black race. She staffed the leadership of planned parenthood with hand picked neonazis, who remained in charge until the last of them died some time while we were talking on this firefly fan site.

It's not speculation or conspiracy theory. This is history.

Anthony,

the above genocide is not hypothetical. It's a reality, and one billion people are not here today because of it. This is concrete reality. I think the other is fantasy, and the danger, largely exaggerated. Statistically there are very few viable pregnancies that would pose a health risk to which abortion is the best option; the ones of which this is true are mainly the ectopic pregnancies.

I don't think anyone has yet argued that life saving treatments should not be available, this is a total strawman argument. It's like corporate personhood. No one has ever said a corporation was a person, they've said it was a citizen, a subtle but very important different. I have never heard even a rabid proponent of illegalizing abortion oppose healthcare for women, including abortion to save the woman's life.

That said, I wasn't arguing for a law against it because I don't argue for a law against anything, but it does concern me that the main reason for people to kill their children is that neonazis talk them into it, while masquerading as healthcare clinicians. This is a very real threat, and not just here, but worldwide.

That's what a ship is, you know - it's not just a keel and a hull and a deck and sails, that's what a ship needs.

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Wednesday, February 8, 2012 6:23 PM

Well, I don't claim to know much about pre-historic humans. I could agree that human diversity compared to gorilla or chimpanzee diversity might be lacking, I wouldn't know any better. But I'd also say that while 72,000 years is the blink of an eye in geologic time, it's so many generations in population dynamic time, and there are potentially mutations in each one.

EDIT: Looking into it further, the genetic bottlenecking mentioned was not one large event, but rather events associated with migrating groups. Genetic diversity among a GROUP falls off the further that genetic haplogroup gets from Africa. That technically means there actually is some diversity between groups (if not between individuals of that group), and in Africa individuals are more diverse than individuals of other groups.

Really, what we're seeing is a lot like breeds of canines. The wolves are equivalent to the Africans as a progenitor gestalt, and all the other breeds of humans and dogs are descended from the original one. The main difference is instead of human selective breeding creating new breeds of dog, separate human breeds were produced through geographic isolation and natural selection.

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Wednesday, February 8, 2012 6:46 PM

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

"In 2009, Planned Parenthood provided 4,009,549 contraceptive services (35% of total), 3,955,926 sexually transmitted disease services (35% of total), 1,830,811 cancer related services (16% of total) (1M PAP smears, 830,000 breast exams and miscellaneous other cancer services), 1,178,369 pregnancy/prenatal/midlife services (10% of total), 332,278 abortion services (3% of total), and 76,977 other services (1% of total), for a total of 11,383,900 services." (US figures)

If they're in the business of eugenics they sure spend a lot of time, effort and money on keeping all those unfit women alive and healthy and ensuring healthy babies through cancer and STD screening, blood pressure screening, pre-natal care, and other health services. In many places, those poor and presumable genetically inferior women use Planned Parenthood as their only source of regular health care.

In 1936 there were about 2B people on the planet. Now there are 7B.

Their eugenics program is remarkably misdirected in its efforts, and ineffective at reducing human numbers.

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Wednesday, February 8, 2012 7:08 PM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Quote:
"abortion, planned parenthood et al, are far more of a risk to her health than childbirth."

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"I don't think anyone has yet argued that life saving treatments should not be available, this is a total strawman argument."

Hello,

Please don't accuse me of strawman arguments. I was arguing against your assertion that abortion is more of a risk to the mother's health than childbirth. It was a flat statement on your part, presented initially without addendum, exception or reservation. A wrong one at least once in my own life's limited experience, and so I argued against it. Not some strawman, but your actual statement.

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"Statistically there are very few viable pregnancies that would pose a health risk to which abortion is the best option; the ones of which this is true are mainly the ectopic pregnancies.

Interesting that you use the term 'viable pregnancy' and then follow with a description of a non-viable pregnancy. In any event, since I have personal experience with a case when abortion was the best medical option, and it was not an ectopic pregnancy, I'll weigh your opinion versus my reality appropriately.

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It's not speculation or conspiracy theory. This is history.

By the notion of History=Contemporary, we can conclude that either Americans bombed London with V1 Rockets, or that NASA is a NAZI organization.

Eugenics was a popular idea for a long time, Both before and after WWII. Atrocities were committed in the name of Eugenics both before and after WWII. Because Eugenics was popular, and because social engineering is a game for the wealthy and powerful, advocates of Eugenics existed in virtually every major institution and political group.

That history has little to do with a destitute woman getting reproductive health care at a clinic in the 21st century.

--Anthony

_______________________________________________

"In every war, the state enacts a tax of freedom upon the citizenry. The unspoken promise is that the tax shall be revoked at war's end. Endless war holds no such promise. Hence, Eternal War is Eternal Slavery." --Admiral Robert J. Henner

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Wednesday, February 8, 2012 7:24 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)

Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:

That history has little to do with a destitute woman getting reproductive health care at a clinic in the 21st century.

--Anthony

And THAT is DT's strawman. He is really off his nut on this topic, and pretty much always has been.

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Wednesday, February 8, 2012 7:29 PM

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I was arguing against your assertion that abortion is more of a risk to the mother's health than childbirth.

It kind of depends. Some deliveries are more dangerous than others, whereas abortion can be very dangerous because there's some pretty major arteries that nourish the placenta. If an abortion is botched or if proper care isn't given, or if unsafe techniques are used, it can be serious.

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Abstract
PIP:

This response to an earlier article on maternal mortality by LeBolt and others argues that mortality rates of women having an abortion should be separately compared to women having vaginal delivery and women having cesarean delivery, the latter being subject to higher mortality rates partly because of the ocmplications that lead to the cesarean and partly because of increased risks inherent in the abdominal route. Maternal mortality following a cesarean is approximately 100/100,000 live births, roughly 10-20 times higher than mortality following vaginal delivery. The incidence of cesarean section generally ranges from 10-20% of deliveries; assuming the national figure to be 10%, some 90% of the 22,257 live births reported by LeBolt, or 2,253, were due to cesarean deliveries. Using these figures, the maternal mortality rate for vaginal deliveries would be 1.1/100,000 live births, less than the death-to-case rate of 1.9/100,000 legal abortions reported by LeBolt. The maternal mortality rate for cesarean deliveries would then be approximately 53 times greater than that for legal abortion, but the mortality rate for legal abortion would be almost twice as high as that for vaginal deliveries. Even if the effect of artificially lowering the mortality rate for vaginal deliveries because high-risk mothers are more likely to have cesarean deliveries were eliminated by adjusting for preexisting medical conditions between the vaginal and cesarean delivery groups, the increased rate of mortality associated with childbirth would still be accounted for by cesarean deliveries.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/6854898

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Wednesday, February 8, 2012 8:05 PM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Quote:
It kind of depends.

Hello,

My point exactly.

--Anthony

_______________________________________________

"In every war, the state enacts a tax of freedom upon the citizenry. The unspoken promise is that the tax shall be revoked at war's end. Endless war holds no such promise. Hence, Eternal War is Eternal Slavery." --Admiral Robert J. Henner

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Wednesday, February 8, 2012 8:34 PM

MAGONSDAUGHTER

Why do discussions have to get sidetracked to the nonsense around eugenics spouted by DT. It really means its time to stop.

And DT, what are you doing having this dicussion? Haven't you banned abortion as a topic on these threads. Give it up and go home.

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Wednesday, February 8, 2012 9:05 PM

FREMDFIRMA

Yeah, really, why not just the rest of the way.

REDUCTIO AD ABSURDUM!

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Thursday, February 9, 2012 6:24 AM