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Originally posted by whozit:
And WW3 begins when?

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February 17, 2012

NEW YORK (JTA) -- U.S. Secretary of State Hillary Clinton welcomed Iran's stated willingness to restart negotiations and called it an "important step."

In comments to reporters after a meeting Friday at the State Department with Catherine Ashton, the European Union policy chief, Clinton said any resumption of negotiations with Iran would require sustained effort.

“We must be assured that if we make a decision to go forward, we see a sustained effort by Iran to come to the table to work until we have reached an outcome that has Iran coming back into compliance with their international obligations,” Clinton said. “We’re evaluating all of these factors. But I think it’s fair to say ... that we think this is an important step and we welcome the letter.”

The letter in question was sent to Ashton on Tuesday by Iran's chief nuclear negotiator, Saeed Jalili, which proposed new discussions between Iran and the West.

Tensions over Iran's suspected nuclear weaspons program have been increasing steadily in recent weeks as heightened sanctions are imposed on the Islamic Republic and speculation persists of a possible Israeli military strike.

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Originally posted by Oonjerah:

Once again, I don't think Iran is wholly wise here.

I am still wondering if they have any allies. Is there any gov't on the planet that trusts Iran?


"All I suggest is a man hears what he wants to hear, and disregards the rest" ~Paul Simon

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Originally posted by AURaptor:

And we're in a recession still. Wonder what a 'recovery' will do the the gas prices ?


" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Originally posted by AnthonyT:

I wonder where all your observations are pointed.

--Anthony

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Originally posted by AURaptor:

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Originally posted by AnthonyT:

I wonder where all your observations are pointed.

--Anthony

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Exactly where they should be.




" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Originally posted by Oonjerah:

Once again, I don't think Iran is wholly wise here.

I am still wondering if they have any allies. Is there any gov't on the planet that trusts Iran?


"All I suggest is a man hears what he wants to hear, and disregards the rest" ~Paul Simon

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Originally posted by RionaEire:
Out of curiosity, when did "we're allies" start meaning "if you go to war we'll follow you in"? At one point did it mean "we get along reasonably well and we like trading with each other, and maybe if you go to war we'll come too, but not necessarily"?

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

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Originally posted by AURaptor:

And we're in a recession still. Wonder what a 'recovery' will do the the gas prices ?

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Originally posted by pizmobeach:
Seems a bit loose on the sourcing to call it "Iran." Nothing like a powder keg to sell papers.

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Originally posted by pizmobeach:
It's kind of hard to know what Iran thinks since a lot of these proclamations come from different sources, even different semi-official government news agencies, and some of them seem completely contradictory or at odds with previously released ones (the UK was not included in the first group of 6 nations to have oil withheld, it was in this latest).
Over all of that is who's running the country? And are these proclamations for their people, for the region, for international consumption, or totally *Iraq Minister of Information* uncoordinated and just noise?

Or is it the MSM mislabeling these sources and putting them under "Iran?"
The latest:

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/02/22/world/middleeast/iran-says-un-weapon
s-inspectors-wont-visit-nuclear-sites.html?_r=1&hp

"As tension grew in its nuclear dispute with the West, IRAN was reported on Tuesday to have struck an increasingly bellicose tone, warning that it would take pre-emptive action against perceived foes if it felt its national interests were threatened."

"The warning by the deputy head of its armed forces, quoted by a semi-official news agency, came as Tehran also appeared to place limits on a visit by a team of United Nations nuclear officials, saying the investigators would not go to nuclear facilities, despite earlier reports that its members had sought permission to inspect a military complex outside Tehran."

Seems a bit loose on the sourcing to call it "Iran." Nothing like a powder keg to sell papers.

Scifi movie music + Firefly dialogue clips, 24 hours a day - http://www.scifiradio.com

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"The warning by the deputy head of its armed forces, quoted by a semi-official news agency...

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Originally posted by Oonjerah:
"Trust": bad choice of word.
I should have said, "Is there any government in the Middle East that doesn't fear a nuclear Iran?"

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Originally posted by HKCavalier:

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Originally posted by Oonjerah:
"Trust": bad choice of word.
I should have said, "Is there any government in the Middle East that doesn't fear a nuclear Iran?"

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I don't think any of 'em really do, Oon. Really. I think they understand that Iran is doing all this nuclear posturing to stave off an attack from the U.S. A nuclear U.S. of A. will always be a much greater threat to the region than Iran. It's clear as freakin' day over there. And Saddam Hussein did exactly the same thing. Government statements in Arab/Persian cultures are kinda like the trash talking we see in professional wrestling. Talk about comments not intended as factual statements!

And they are so not going to bomb Isreal. Because they know perfectly well how defenseless they would be against the rest of the world that would come in and trash their country like Aerosmith at the Four Seasons.

A nuclear Iran means one thing to the Middle East: an Iran the U.S. can't simply step on and grind into the dust. And, of course, it would disincline Isreal from doing anything rash as well.

HKCavalier

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Originally posted by pizmobeach:
"There was no Holocaust and there are no Gays in Iran..." - Mahmoud Ahmadinejad. Someone who thinks this backwards is someone you'll trust with nukes, is someone who's behavior you think you can safely predict?

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"Someone who thinks this backwards is someone you'll trust with nukes,"

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Originally posted by pizmobeach:

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Originally posted by HKCavalier:

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Originally posted by Oonjerah:
"Trust": bad choice of word.
I should have said, "Is there any government in the Middle East that doesn't fear a nuclear Iran?"

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I don't think any of 'em really do, Oon. Really. I think they understand that Iran is doing all this nuclear posturing to stave off an attack from the U.S. A nuclear U.S. of A. will always be a much greater threat to the region than Iran. It's clear as freakin' day over there. And Saddam Hussein did exactly the same thing. Government statements in Arab/Persian cultures are kinda like the trash talking we see in professional wrestling. Talk about comments not intended as factual statements!

And they are so not going to bomb Isreal. Because they know perfectly well how defenseless they would be against the rest of the world that would come in and trash their country like Aerosmith at the Four Seasons.

A nuclear Iran means one thing to the Middle East: an Iran the U.S. can't simply step on and grind into the dust. And, of course, it would disincline Isreal from doing anything rash as well.

HKCavalier

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I can't believe how many Westerners think they know what Iran will do. Got to be wishful thinking, right? I get that impulse, I'd love to think we can work this out like adults, because if that doesn't happen too many innocent people die. To me it rings as just as stubborn headed as our military thinking Iraq/everyone needs US Style democracy. A non-nuke Iran is one Israel doesn't want to bomb - that's the scenario that keeps the most people out of the worst trouble.

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Originally posted by HKCavalier:
And I find your thinking kinda authoritarian in its focus on the individual "leader." Individuals do not lead the modern nation state. That is a fiction. Decisions like nuking another country are never in the hands of one man. Yes, you may look at a chain of command and see so-and-so at the top and you can tell me that he has the key that will arm the warhead, bladdy-bladdy-blah, but still, in the nature of human beings, one guy is not responsible for the fate of millions. Ever. Not in reality.

And most of the time, "chain of command" is a fiction that keeps us from seeing the truth. Adolf Hitler didn't gas a single person by himself. Plenty of other folks were willing to do the heavy lifting there. The work of thousands goes into every nuclear warhead.

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Originally posted by HKCavalier:
First of all, Pizmo, he ain't the guy in charge. President in Iran is more like a Propaganda Minister. Some people in the West think they can predict what Iran will do because they've done their research, read a little history, know people on the ground over there, etc. You keep harping on this point that we should all be just as ignorant as you say we are. Why? What makes you the authority on how ignorant the rest of us are?

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Originally posted by HKCavalier:
And I find your thinking kinda authoritarian in its focus on the individual "leader." Individuals do not lead the modern nation state. That is a fiction. Decisions like nuking another country are never in the hands of one man. Yes, you may look at a chain of command and see so-and-so at the top and you can tell me that he has the key that will arm the warhead, bladdy-bladdy-blah, but still, in the nature of human beings, one guy is not responsible for the fate of millions. Ever. Not in reality.

And most of the time, "chain of command" is a fiction that keeps us from seeing the truth. Adolf Hitler didn't gas a single person by himself. Plenty of other folks were willing to do the heavy lifting there. The work of thousands goes into every nuclear warhead.

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Originally posted by HKCavalier:
The fate of millions depends at least on the actions of, what, tens of thousands? PARTICULARLY when people start acting irrationally. Irrationality isn't randomness, it's usually highly patterned and predictable if you know what to look for. Y'know, an alcoholic in your face may seem like a great chaos monster, but if you look at alcoholics as a group, alcoholism as a syndrome, their behavior becomes quite mechanistic.

Some extremely mentally disturbed individuals have had control of nukes for decades now and our country is the only one to have ever used one in earnest. That is a fact. Do you think that's just luck? Random chance? I don't. I think it means something profound about human psychology, about human nature. I think it means there are limits.

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Originally posted by HKCavalier:
Why didn't our country bomb Mecca ten years ago? Plenty of folk in and out of our government wanted that so very badly. I remember one of my best friends in the world yelling at me on the phone about it. You think the reason we didn't is because of our democratic system of government? Because we're so civilized? You think it was because George W. is more mentally stable than Mahmoud Ahmadinejad? Neither of these men live and work in a vacuum. And neither of them are particularly masters of even their own fates. Both are subject to the pressures of the people around them, their cultures, and of history and our human psychological nature.

I'm not without fear. I'm shocked at what our world has become in just 10 short years since 9/11/01. And sure, I could be wrong. I was wrong about the Iraq war. I thought it was all so much sabre rattling and brinksmanship. After all, the UN inspectors were nearly done and a lot of us already knew they would find nothing. And we knew Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11. I didn't think America would go to war with a country that had done nothing to us and posed no discernable threat. I was dead wrong. Nonetheless, even in retrospect, I wouldn't call my reasoning at the time "wishful thinking."

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Originally posted by HKCavalier:
Sorry for rambling there, Pizmo. Just trying to give you a sense of why I think as I do. And maybe give you some things to ponder before you go thinking the worst of people, whether they be fellow forum members or foreign heads of state.

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Originally posted by AnthonyT:

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"Someone who thinks this backwards is someone you'll trust with nukes,"

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Hello,

What difference does it make whether we trust Iran with nukes? I wouldn't trust Iran with my Hallmark Star Trek ornament collection. So what? All that matters is what we're willing to do about it.

And what we're not willing to do.

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Originally posted by Kwicko:

I share your concern. I also can't believe how many Westerners seem to think they know exactly how Iran will act. They seem so certain Iran will use a nuke the very second it acquires one, despite no factual basis for such beliefs.

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"There was no Holocaust and there are no Gays in Iran..." - Mahmoud Ahmadinejad. Someone who thinks this backwards is someone you'll trust with nukes, is someone who's behavior you think you can safely predict?

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Originally posted by Kwicko:
Again, I hear ya. I've heard some crazy-ass shit from certain leaders and certain candidates running for positions of power. I heard one crazy idiot make the claim that "The British government has learned that Saddam Hussein recently sought significant quantities of uranium from Africa." I've even heard some spectacularly revisionist (non)history from candidates here at home, some of whom want us to believe that the Civil War had nothing at all to do with slavery.

Clearly such lunatics should not only not be trusted, but should never, EVER be allowed anywhere near positions of power. I think everyone here will agree with that.

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Originally posted by Oonjerah:


But what should be and what IS ain't always that much the same.

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Originally posted by pizmobeach:

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Originally posted by AnthonyT:

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"Someone who thinks this backwards is someone you'll trust with nukes,"

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Hello,

What difference does it make whether we trust Iran with nukes? I wouldn't trust Iran with my Hallmark Star Trek ornament collection. So what? All that matters is what we're willing to do about it.

And what we're not willing to do.

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What, are you serious?!? You have a Hallmark Star Trek ornament collection??

I agree - what are we willing to do, makes me a bit scared - and I use the word "we" very loosely because I don't feel like I'm part of that We. What if Israel decides to try and be pre-emptive? What if Iran tries to be pre-emptive on Israel?
I can't think of any good outcomes here, and it'd be worse with nukes or Republicans involved.

Scifi movie music + Firefly dialogue clips, 24 hours a day - http://www.scifiradio.com

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Originally posted by AnthonyT:


It started when I was in Middle school, and my Sister got a job working at the local Hallmark store at the mall. She gave me one every year for Christmas for a while.

Much of my collection is still in Florida. I've got multiple Enterprises, Miranda class, Romulan Warbirds (original and new) Klingon D-7, Bird of Prey, and little Spocks. It's a very Trekkie Christmas when they're all on display.

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Originally posted by AnthonyT:

Anyhow, I do feel like part of the 'we.' I think if 'we' don't want to go to war, then 'we' need to make that loud and clear. Then, even if 'we' do go to war, against our wishes, it will be known that not all Americans are warmongers.

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Originally posted by AnthonyT:
And possibly the 99% will have a voice about something beyond the sad state of the economy. Maybe we'll find that 99% of people don't like spending tax money to kill foreigners and sacrifice our youth. I could get on-board with a protest about that.

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I would have thought that was made apparent "not all Americans are warmongers" by many people in the US during Iraq, but we were hated and still are to a large extent I think around the globe, as part of that war mongering nation - I don't think people are interested if you say you aren't, the focus is the negative. I traveled a little outside the US during W's reign and I could feel the hate like waves of heat coming off people. It made me defensive - I agreed with them but I didn't think it was fair to single me out for their scorn, I thought Iraq was a damned stupid idea. O-well.

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Sounds really very cool - do you do a silver tree or more traditional?

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Originally posted by CaveTroll:
Does anybody here know what percentage of oil is purchased from Iran by European states?

Spain 14.6%
Greece 13.8%
Italy 13%
Austria 10%
Belgium 7%
Netherlands 4%
France 2.8%
Czech republic 2%
Germany 1.6%
Portugal 1.6%
United Kingdom 0.2%
All 27 EU Countries 5%

And the six countries that Iran shut off? The Netherlands, Spain, Italy, France, Greece and Portugal.

I don't think that this is as big a deal as the news is making it out to be. In fact, I'd be suspicious of market manipulation in advance of an election.

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Originally posted by Kwicko:

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Which would also explain the spike in speculator money in oil & gas right now, as well as the current price spike despite near-record lows in demand and highs in supply.

Yup, we're being played, folks, and we're being played by people who've rigged the game so they make money either way. Heads they win, tails they win. Either way, you lose.

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Originally posted by AnthonyT:

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Originally posted by Kwicko:

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Which would also explain the spike in speculator money in oil & gas right now, as well as the current price spike despite near-record lows in demand and highs in supply.

Yup, we're being played, folks, and we're being played by people who've rigged the game so they make money either way. Heads they win, tails they win. Either way, you lose.

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Hello,

My father used to say, when he had a penchant for saying instructional things:

"Every time anything happens in the middle east, gas prices go up. And they go up right away, even though the gas in the station is the same gas that was there moments before."

--Anthony

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"In every war, the state enacts a tax of freedom upon the citizenry. The unspoken promise is that the tax shall be revoked at war's end. Endless war holds no such promise. Hence, Eternal War is Eternal Slavery." --Admiral Robert J. Henner

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Originally posted by AnthonyT:


Hello,

I have friends and acquaintences overseas. When George Bush got elected to a second term, a lot of them threw up their hands in frustration. They were like, "You can say you don't support XYZ all you want, but when Americans choose this man to lead them, it leads many to wonder how you can possibly be against it." I found it remarkable how quickly we burned our goodwill after 9/11. I wish we'd had someone politically savvy at the time to take advantage of that brief surge of sympathy and good feelings.

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