Man's call for help go unanswered, dies, while police busy w/ Occupy Cal crowd. by AURaptor

DALEK!

Your right Rappy Occupy does want to tear down the system. They what to replace it on that is fair for everyone not just those with money.

The failure here is with the police and no one else. Thet should have deemed this mans situation an emergency.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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Friday, February 24, 2012 3:47 AM

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by m52nickerson:
Your right Rappy Occupy does want to tear down the system. They what to replace it on that is fair for everyone not just those with money.

What if I happen to have money, and have worked for it ? How does the occupy movement distinguish between me and those Wall Street fat cats ?

Quote:

The failure here is with the police and no one else. Thet should have deemed this mans situation an emergency.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

There was a cop in the neighborhood, about to answer the call, when his supervisor told him to get to the Occupy event instead.

This is uncharted territory, and the police are having to deal w/ this sort of nonsense on the fly, as it were. It's a balancing act, and sure as hell, once there is a smaller force at some Occupy event than there should be, violence will break out, something will take place, and questions will be asked " Why weren't more cops HERE ? " . This is absolute bullshit, and there needs to be a stop to it.

" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Friday, February 24, 2012 4:32 AM

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)

Quote:
There was a cop in the neighborhood, about to answer the call, when his supervisor told him to get to the Occupy event instead.

So you're accusing the supervisor of being part of Occupy, part of "the Left", then?

This sounds more like a problem with police failure to respond.

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Friday, February 24, 2012 4:41 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Hello,

This thread should be titled, "Police prioritization error results in death."

--Anthony

_______________________________________________

"In every war, the state enacts a tax of freedom upon the citizenry. The unspoken promise is that the tax shall be revoked at war's end. Endless war holds no such promise. Hence, Eternal War is Eternal Slavery." --Admiral Robert J. Henner

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Friday, February 24, 2012 4:58 AM

MUTT999

The radicals have put together quite a record of accomplishment:

- 9 deaths, 5 found dead in tents, One found dead after 2 days
- 2 murders (Not counting the protester who strangled his parents and stuffed them in a car)
- Tens of millions of dollars in damages, layoffs, vandalism, law breaking
- Multiple Rapes
- Thousands of arrests
- Public masturbation
- Feces
- Child molestation and baby abuse

http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2012/02/ows-goon-writes-letter-to-edit
or-threatening-to-storm-wall-street-with-guns/

I don't normally get into these real world discussions. Not here to call names or snark on people. But that poor guy is dead. Not because of the police, but because of Occupy. Period.

Occupy is like a zombie. It's dead, just doesn't know it.

I respect all of your opinions, that's mine.

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Friday, February 24, 2012 6:40 AM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Thank you, those of you who are rational. We heard about this days ago. Are you interested in the FACTS?? I originally put up material on Monday's San Quenton demonstration and the police "presence" there, but I'll do that separately and instead respond to this specific event.

Quote:
A source familiar with the case said the couple arrived home and found the suspect near their garage, asking to see a woman. The couple told the suspect there was no one there by that name and told him to leave.

Lt. Andrew Greenwood said the victim "calmly reported" an encounter with a strange person on his

Reportedly, the Cukors returned home on Saturday to find DeWitt standing outside of their garage, asking to see a woman they didn't know. The Cukors told him there was no one there by that name and asked him to leave. Once inside, they called the police on a nonemergency line to report the situation, and were told an officer would arrive shortly. However, the Department allegedly called off the dispatch, claiming that officers were busy with an Occupy Oakland march headed for Berkeley.

Reportedly, when police did not arrive, Peter Cukor left the house and walked to a nearby fire station to ask for help, but the station was out on call. When he returned to his home, DeWitt allegedly dragged Cukor into the bushes and beat him to death with a flowerpot while his wife watched from inside. His wife called 911 and officers responded immediately.

According to CBS, the incident has prompted Berkeley City Council member Susan Wengraf to call for an investigation into the response by the Berkeley Police Department. "I think allocation of our resources is a really important issue."

In a statement, the Department explained the response.

"At that time, available officers were being reconfigured in order to monitor a protest which was to come into Berkeley from Oakland in the next hour," said Berkeley Police Spokesman Lt. Andrew Greenwood in a statement. "Only criminal, in-progress emergency calls were to be dispatched, due to the reduction in officers available to handle calls for service."

But Occupiers claim that the Occupy Oakland is being unfairly scapegoated.

"This is not the first time this has happened, with or without Occupy Oakland," Occupy Oakland Activist Boots Riley told HuffPost. "Information is available about the average response times in Berkeley to non-emergency numbers; there is an incredibly long wait time. This has nothing to do with Occupy Oakland and they are using it as a scapegoat."

Occupier Omar Yassin agreed. "Police departments are so cash-strapped that they don't ever respond to calls like that immediately," he said.

"There was reportedly no violent activity at the march, so they are saying that they spent all of their resources monitoring a non-violent march," added Riley. "This is ridiculous."

The REAL problem is failures in the system where the mentally ill are concerned, if you want to talk about real problems. From the San Jose Mercury News (another local paper):

Quote:
Candy Dewitt said she is distraught over what happened and said she has spent the last four years trying to find help for her son, who was diagnosed with paranoid schizophrenia when he was 18 years old.

"I have tried to write letters to judges, to victims rights advocates, to prosecutors and begged and pleaded for them to help my son," Candy Dewitt said. "But there was no help. It is a system where these people just go in and out in and out."

After he was diagnosed with the disease, Candy Dewitt said she attempted numerous times to have him checked into a permanent care facility. But, she said, once her son took his medication and began to act rationally the hospital would force him out, leaving her to care for him. Everything appeared fine when he was on his medication, she said, but that did not last long.

"We have been trying for more than four-and-a-half years to get our son help," Candy Dewitt said. http://www.mercurynews.com/breaking-news/ci_20006196

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Friday, February 24, 2012 7:25 AM

STORYMARK

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
And make NO mistake... this is absolutely by design, from those who on the Left, who want chaos and to destabilize the system.

Such a staggeringly stupid statement. SOP for Rappy, but still worth pointing out.

"Goram it kid, let's frak this thing and go home! Engage!"

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Friday, February 24, 2012 7:37 AM

PIZMOBEACH

... fully loaded, safety off...

Quote:
Originally posted by MUTT999:

The radicals have put together quite a record of accomplishment:

- 9 deaths, 5 found dead in tents, One found dead after 2 days
- 2 murders (Not counting the protester who strangled his parents and stuffed them in a car)
- Tens of millions of dollars in damages, layoffs, vandalism, law breaking
- Multiple Rapes
- Thousands of arrests
- Public masturbation
- Feces
- Child molestation and baby abuse

http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2012/02/ows-goon-writes-letter-to-edit
or-threatening-to-storm-wall-street-with-guns/

I don't normally get into these real world discussions. Not here to call names or snark on people. But that poor guy is dead. Not because of the police, but because of Occupy. Period.

Occupy is like a zombie. It's dead, just doesn't know it.

I respect all of your opinions, that's mine.

He's dead because of the person who killed him - I think we should start there. No telling if the police would have arrived on time either. I'm not defending Occupy, just trying to find the truth.
From day 1 I thought the Occupy tent mass protest civil disobedience thing was not going to work - the tactics are too old and too easily foiled or discredited, and if you open it up to anyone, then anyone is going to show up. That's not to say they don't have a lot of good things to say, just way too naive about the world around them and how to get the message across imho. I give the organizers a lot of credit for trying at least.

Scifi movie music + Firefly dialogue clips, 24 hours a day - http://www.scifiradio.com

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Friday, February 24, 2012 7:48 AM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Looking around for news on that Okaland-Berkeley Occupy march the police were supposedly busy monitoring, all I could find was

Quote:
Protesters from Occupy Oakland converged on UC Berkeley Saturday evening, the day after 18 Occupy Cal protesters were detained when their encampment was cleared from the front of Doe Library.

About 40 protesters from Oakland marched down Telegraph Avenue, eventually reaching the International House on Piedmont Avenue at around 11 p.m. An “Occupy the Truth” conference was held this weekend at I-House, and protesters set up five tents to show solidarity with the conference.

House administrators agreed to let the encampment remain on the lawn overnight as long as the steps leading up to the entrance were kept clear for traffic, according to Shirley Spiller, chief financial officer for the house.

“We just talked to one of the event managers at I-House,” said UC Berkeley senior Navid Shaghaghi. “We just want a peaceful night.”

At the height of the protest — when the Oakland group first reached the campus and about 60 people congregated on the steps in front of I-House — eight UCPD officers wearing helmets guarded the doors at the entrance of I-House.

According to campus spokesperson Janet Gilmore, UCPD maintained its presence throughout the night to monitor both the Oakland group and campus group and to help ensure the events “concluded without incident.” Six officers and about 15 protesters remained at I-House overnight.

At about 11:48 p.m., protesters began an “anti-repression tour” around campus to places where police and protester confrontations have occurred, which included a visit to Wheeler Hall, Upper Sproul and the oak trees in which Berkeley community members — including Zachary RunningWolf, who was at the march — held tree-sits in 2007.

As of 1:20 a.m., six UCPD officers maintained guard at the entrance of the house while the remaining approximately 15 protesters ate pizza in preparation for spending the night on the lawn.

After attending the conference on Sunday, members of Occupy Cal cleared their encampment Sunday afternoon around 3:30 p.m. http://www.dailycal.org/2012/02/18/occupyoakland-protesters-march-to-i
nternational-house-at-uc-berkeley/ curious as to why Berkeley police were unable to get to that crime scene, given the ONLY "police" mentioned in the article are U.C. Berkeley police, NOT Berkeley Police Department...?

Something fishy going on here?? I also noted the march began at 9 pm on Saturday evening, the 18th and ended at 3:30 p.m. Sunday, the 19th; the man was killed earlier Saturday evening:
Quote:
Police said Daniel Dewitt attacked the victim at about 8:45 p.m., after he and his wife returned home to find Dewitt near their garage. The victim told Dewitt to leave, went inside, then came out again and was attacked, said Berkeley police Sgt. Mary Kusmiss.

The victim had called police on a nonemergency line after first seeing Dewitt, according to sources familiar with the case. But police were busy monitoring an Occupy Oakland march to UC Berkeley, and officers were dispatched only to high-priority calls. http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2012/02/19/BAFU1N9T8J
.DTL what were the police "monitoring" before 8:45 p.m.?

Also, a couple of the reports say an OAKLAND P.D. officer got the call, others say it was BERKELEY P.D. involved...?
Quote:
According to a story filed by the San Francisco Chronicle, an Oakland police officer told a dispatcher he would respond to the call after it was received, but he was told not to go.
Then, too, I found
Quote:
There was minimal police presence around the march, and protesters blocked traffic freely on their way to Berkeley. http://www.ktvu.com/news/news/occupy-oakland-anti-police-march-heads-b
erkeley-jo/nJJLW/ where were all the police who were "monitoring" the event??

So the march didn't even gather to start by 9pm (official start at 11pm); DeWitt had called police when they FIRST saw the guy, and DeWitt wasn't KILLED until 8:45; there was "minimal police presence" at the march; the only police mentioned were U.C. Berkeley police; the "march" is reported to have been 60 people watched by 8 UCPD officers, and different articles say it was an Oakland P.D. officer OR a Berkeley P.D. officer who took the original call (neither of which is Univ. Cal. P.D.).

Any guesses??

Certainly, if one chooses to buy what the MSM puts out, one's opinion of the Occupy movement will include all kinds of ugly things. Given my own involvement in the Occupy movement and comparing it to what I read in the MSM, AND bearing in mind what were suggested as ways to defeat Occupy by Republicans (including trashing them in the MSM), I think I'll go with what I see and hear from the people involved.

Here's a lovely example:
Quote:
The Campaign to Defeat Obama, a political action committee with ties to the Republican Party and the Tea Party Express, has launched a campaign linking Democratic Party lawmakers and President Obama to the Occupy Wall Street movement, which is depicted by the organization as “violent mobs.”

“Barack Obama has been one of the protest mobs’ biggest cheerleaders,” writes the campaign’s chief and right-wing political consultant Joe Wierzbicki in a release announcing a new campaign ad. ”The new poll finds that support for the violent Occupy Wall Street mobs has fallen further, and since Barack Obama has been one of the protest mobs’ biggest cheerleaders, it spells trouble for him as well.”
Quote:
The mainstream media hasn’t spent much time highlighting this vulnerability for Obama, but that is where you come in. We urgently need your help to raise the money to launch our new TV ad campaign that shows how Democrat leaders shamelessly have championed the Occupy Wall Street mobs that have cost taxpayers millions of dollars and created considerable damage in cities across America.
The ad closes with a question: “Are we going to let these mobs and their Democrat champions do this to America, or are we going to fight back?” http://minnesotaindependent.com/91486/republican-aligned-pac-uses-occu
py-wall-street-against-democrats the way, to the best of my knowledge, we get NO support from Democrats or the Democratic Party, monetary or otherwise. Some Democrats agree that the issues we raise are valid issues, but beyond that...?

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Friday, February 24, 2012 8:00 AM

FREMDFIRMA

Police OFTEN fail to respond to emergency calls properly, sometimes due to poor information and/or directions from dispatch, being re-routed onto other calls, or simply blowing it off, how is this any kind of surprise ?

Now it's more common in Detroit where they'll actually pull a responding officer off a shooting in a low income neighborhood to cover a peeper in a gated community, but there's at least shades of that pretty much everywhere, and THAT problem lies more on the dispatch service than the police themselves.

Also not nearly as uncommon as it should be is the problem of the police then committing further aggression against the VICTIMS of a crime when they do show up, so there's that to consider as well.

Or just not showing up, which considering the behavior of some of these jerks when they do, kind of a tossup, you know ?

Which is *WHY* so many neighborhoods around here have seen to their own protection via neighborhood alliances like Jackrabbit, The Detroit 300, or Contract Security like me and mine, who actually DO show up and assist when you call them - and that don't cost near as much as you think, there's one neighborhood too far away for us to service that's covered by a similar setup which the community pays for by taking up a collection at their town hall, these ain't gated communities but really damn poor neighborhoods the police can't be bothered to patrol anyways.

Which of course has lead many to ask why we pay so much in taxes to support a bunch of useless goons who are often more trouble than they're worth - but you still do need a minimum of them cause damned if I wanna drag the occasional punk down to central booking myself - police are REACTIVE, more like social janitors than anything else, they come *after* an incident to clean up the mess, whereas Contracted Security is PROACTIVE and works to prevent things from *coming* to an incident, the kind of thing police were intended to do before their focus shifted from Crime Prevention to Law Enforcement.

All that said now, this cannot be laid at the feet of Occupy, and frankly, cannot be laid at the feet of the police neither - THIS cockup lies squarely on the shoulders of dispatch, who is wholly responsible for properly prioritizing calls.

Of course, our resident jackboot cuddling scum don't really care what the truth is, so long as they can concoct some lameass excuse to spout their filthy hatred for anything resembling human rights for people who don't think just like them.

Also worth a note is that with a response time of anywhere between 20-45 minutes at the best case, it is by no means certain the police would have arrived in time to prevent the incident in question regardless.

Which is why the residents *here* treasure the other option they have, cause the max response time is 4 minutes, and that only if I am on the exact opposite end of the place when the call comes in.

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

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Friday, February 24, 2012 11:54 AM

Quote Niki2: "Occupier Omar Yassin agreed. 'Police departments are so cash-strapped that they don't ever respond to
calls like that immediately,' he said."

I'll agree to that. Local cops in my area have told us that they are extremely short-handed. The Recession hits local
governments hard. I have seen this here. In a potentially violent situation where they would normally send 5 cop cars,
they may only send One.

I can't point the finger here. Gradually over generations, this is what our society has become. On average, we the
people are far less functional than our ancestors of just 100 years ago. We are entitled to everything we want.
If, in the practice of this entitlement, things get out of hand and someone gets hurt or dead, it's not our fault, it's
the government.

Cops are not perfect and many of them are brutal. I still believe most of them are doing their best to protect us.

My perspective is: If you gotta blame someone for the failures of Our Society, then blame Me! And Yourself!
And every adult living in the USA. I want to see more activism, more personal responsiblity.

"All I suggest is a man hears what he wants to hear, and disregards the rest" ~Paul Simon

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Friday, February 24, 2012 2:13 PM

America loves a winner!

Quote:
But Occupiers claim that the Occupy Oakland is being unfairly scapegoated.

Of COURSE they do! And of COURSE Niki does as well. How is this remotely news to anyone ?

" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Friday, February 24, 2012 2:16 PM

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by Storymark:
Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
And make NO mistake... this is absolutely by design, from those who on the Left, who want chaos and to destabilize the system.

Such a staggeringly stupid statement. SOP for Rappy, but still worth pointing out.

"Goram it kid, let's frak this thing and go home! Engage!"

So, you're calling Nickerson stupid too, huh? Good to know.

M52NICKERSON
I am the Polish Viking!
Friday, February 24, 2012 - 07:40

Your right Rappy Occupy does want to tear down the system. They what to replace it on that is fair for everyone not just those with money.

" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Friday, February 24, 2012 2:17 PM

DALEK!

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
What if I happen to have money, and have worked for it ? How does the occupy movement distinguish between me and those Wall Street fat cats ?

Better get out their with them of you will be lumped into the 1% with the fat cats.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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Friday, February 24, 2012 2:20 PM

DALEK!

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
Quote:
Originally posted by Storymark:
Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
And make NO mistake... this is absolutely by design, from those who on the Left, who want chaos and to destabilize the system.

Such a staggeringly stupid statement. SOP for Rappy, but still worth pointing out.

"Goram it kid, let's frak this thing and go home! Engage!"

So, you're calling Nickerson stupid too, huh? Good to know.

M52NICKERSON
I am the Polish Viking!
Friday, February 24, 2012 - 07:40

Your right Rappy Occupy does want to tear down the system. They what to replace it on that is fair for everyone not just those with money.

Storymark just has not read the memo from out dear leaders stating that we do not even have to pretend anymore.

;)

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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Friday, February 24, 2012 2:41 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by MUTT999:

I don't normally get into these real world discussions. Not here to call names or snark on people. But that poor guy is dead. Not because of the police, but because of Occupy. Period.

Sounds like you're a big believer in "personal responsibility." [/sarcasm]

So "A 23-year-old Alameda man is in jail on suspicion of murder after police say he fatally attacked another man outside the man’s home in the Berkeley hills", in your eyes, is exactly equal to the Occupy movement committing the murder, huh?

So should the police let the suspect go, since you claim that he didn't commit this murder?

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Friday, February 24, 2012 2:44 PM

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by m52nickerson:
Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
What if I happen to have money, and have worked for it ? How does the occupy movement distinguish between me and those Wall Street fat cats ?

Better get out their with them of you will be lumped into the 1% with the fat cats.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

What's that even suppose to mean? Is that suppose to be some sort of threat ? You didn't answer the question.

" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Friday, February 24, 2012 2:46 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:

Quote:
But Occupiers claim that the Occupy Oakland is being unfairly scapegoated.

Of COURSE they do! And of COURSE Niki does as well. How is this remotely news to anyone ?

Is it "news"? Only to the extent that you blaming Occupy for seemingly everything from ring around the collar to the Holocaust to Global Warming to the Kennedy assassination is "news" to anyone.

Is anyone here really surprised that Rappy blames the Occupy movement for a murder committed by another person, said person already in custody and facing charges?

There's that Republican "personal responsibility" rearing its head again, blaming every bad deed on "liberalism".

Rappy, is every murder in Texas the fault of the GOP? They do, after all, control both houses of the legislature and the governor's mansion, so it MUST be their fault, right?

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Friday, February 24, 2012 2:52 PM

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:

Is it "news"? Only to the extent that you blaming Occupy for seemingly everything from ring around the collar to the Holocaust to Global Warming to the Kennedy assassination is "news" to anyone.

Just this man's death, and ...

- 9 deaths, 5 found dead in tents, One found dead after 2 days
- 2 murders (Not counting the protester who strangled his parents and stuffed them in a car)
- Tens of millions of dollars in damages, layoffs, vandalism, law breaking
- Multiple Rapes
- Thousands of arrests
- Public masturbation
- Feces
- Child molestation and baby abuse

Quite a track record.

" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Friday, February 24, 2012 3:12 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:

Is it "news"? Only to the extent that you blaming Occupy for seemingly everything from ring around the collar to the Holocaust to Global Warming to the Kennedy assassination is "news" to anyone.

Just this man's death, and ...

- 9 deaths, 5 found dead in tents, One found dead after 2 days
- 2 murders (Not counting the protester who strangled his parents and stuffed them in a car)
- Tens of millions of dollars in damages, layoffs, vandalism, law breaking
- Multiple Rapes
- Thousands of arrests
- Public masturbation
- Feces
- Child molestation and baby abuse

Quite a track record.

And not a single cite as evidence in support of any of them.

No new tale to tell there, though; it's what you do, and it's all you do.

Still not seeing how Occupy is guilty of this guy's murder, though. Seems maybe the guy who killed him might be involved, but as usual, conservatives avoid the obvious evidence in their efforts to manufacture some faux indignation so they can blame "liberals" for everything.

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Friday, February 24, 2012 3:18 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Hello,

I'm curious about some of these statistics and figures.

Are these figures for all Occupy activities, all members, everywhere, at any time since Occupy started? (Around September of last year?) How many people is that? And how are Occupiers identified as part of the statistical calculation?

Are the deaths caused by Occupy philosophies? Did people hear the ideas of the Occupy crowd and die from some visceral psychological reaction?

I see some Murders are included here. Were the murders inspired by the Occupy philosophy, or encouraged by Occupy leadership or organizers?

Tens of millions of dollars. That's a lot. What kinds of things were damaged, and in what numbers? I'm trying to imagine how many windows you have to break and how many cars you have to burn to cause tens of millions of dollars of damage. (Meaning at least 20 million.)

Layoffs. Did the Occupy movement lay off workers? I'm trying to figure out how this worked.

Thousands of arrests. I'm not sure how the number of arrests themselves are relevant. Were there thousands of crimes? On what charges? What did the Occupiers do to get arrested?

Public Masturbation is just horrible. Was this masturbation caused by Occupy philosophies, encouraged by Occupy leadership or organizers? Was it done by Occupy members? How are such members identified for this statistic?

Feces. Nobody likes Feces. Ick. Biohazard. Not much more to say about that.

Child Molestation and Baby Abuse. This is just terrible. Was the child molestation and baby abuse caused by Occupy philosophies? Encouraged by Occupy leadership or organizers?

--Anthony

_______________________________________________

"In every war, the state enacts a tax of freedom upon the citizenry. The unspoken promise is that the tax shall be revoked at war's end. Endless war holds no such promise. Hence, Eternal War is Eternal Slavery." --Admiral Robert J. Henner

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Friday, February 24, 2012 4:35 PM

Quote Auraptor:
- 9 deaths, 5 found dead in tents, One found dead after 2 days
- 2 murders (Not counting the protester who strangled his parents and stuffed them in a car)
- Tens of millions of dollars in damages, layoffs, vandalism, law breaking
- Multiple Rapes
- Thousands of arrests
- Public masturbation
- Feces
- Child molestation and baby abuse

I thought that was Woodstock ... *?*

Edit: #Occupy Protester Strangles Parents – Stuffs Their Bodies in the Back of the PT Cruiser
Posted by Jim Hoft on Monday, January 30, 2012, 5:04 PM =>
http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2012/01/occupy-protester-stragles-pare
nts-stuffs-their-bodies-in-the-back-of-the-pt-cruiser/

Teen tried as adult for strangling foster parents => http://www.mercurynews.com/news/ci_19858378

"All I suggest is a man hears what he wants to hear, and disregards the rest" ~Paul Simon

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Friday, February 24, 2012 8:12 PM

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

So I started looking at the link posted.

The ONLY occupy death mentioned was that of Eugene protester Rich Youngblood who was choked and beaten to death at the camp. Nowhere was it mentioned that another occupy person CAUSED the death, only that an occupier was a victim. Now, you go into any city, any group of people in this society and you will find victims and perpetrators, yea and verily, even unto policed streets. http://projects.latimes.com/homicide/neighborhood/watts/ So, what is little Rappy's point? That Occupy people are violent b/c they're victims? OOOoooohhhh, that makes sense. Not.

As for the "Tens of millions of dollars in damages, layoffs, vandalism, law breaking" I looked up the links. Many were inactive. But the ones that were still active mentioned ... police overtime as the largest amount of money spent by a vast amount. Hmmm, they are whining about spending police money to prevent free political speech and free association? If I were them I wouldn't whine too loudly or too often about that, or people will get pissed at the waste of public resources.
After the massive OT bill, public works bills were a far distant second. Only one link mentioned 'damage' which was grass damage to a park caused by tents and, out of the $2.4MILLION that was claimed was spent, cost $50,000. "Tens of millions of dollars in damages, layoffs, vandalism, law breaking"? Hardly.

As for the rest, no where was it claimed that the people who allegedly misbehaved were actually Occupy protesters, only that they were in the area. Considering that protesters encroach on space used by the homeless, I have no doubt that many incidents were due to the normally invisible homeless, except people were actually looking at the time.

As for the last claim, it was clearly a case of biased reporting. A child was left in light clothes in a tent in 40 degree weather, headlined as "Baby Left Alone With the Rats at #Occupy DC Criminal Camp – Cops Arrest Father". Now, as was reported in more credible news sources "Protesters at the camp said the man and baby were not part of the Occupy community but had been around the McPherson Square encampment for a few weeks." Oh. OOOPS. Not Occupy, just normal asswipe behavior this society seems to generate in a lot of people.

You know, given that little Rappy seems to have not *actually* READ his link, it makes me wonder if he *actually* can.

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Saturday, February 25, 2012 7:15 AM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Nothing new here. How many times has that list been posted as being "caused" by an Occupy movement? It's typical for those who dislike the movement; they'll list anything that is even remotely connected to Occupy (by the MSM) as being CAUSED by Occupy. Not worthy of our time to debate, and we've debated it already anyway.

I have no expectations of it ever changing here or anywhere else where there are those who are uninformed and merely seeking something with which to tar the movement. It's true of any movement that ever stood up to power, and will continue. I've clarified any number of those things listed to show how they, in actuality, had nothing to do with Occupy, so I won't bother again. It's just bullshit talking points; they think they're right, they WANT to be right, and nothing will ever change that.

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Saturday, February 25, 2012 7:23 AM

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by Niki2: It's just bullshit talking points; they think they're right, they WANT to be right, and nothing will ever change that.

It's not a 'talking point'.

A man died because a call to 911 was made, and an officer was told NOT to respond, but instead was directed to the Occupy event.

And do what, exactly?

Stand there and watch idiots complain about absolutely nothing of which they have any answers for. They're just there to whine and complain, and occasionally destroy other people's property.

" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Saturday, February 25, 2012 9:20 AM

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

"... and an officer was told NOT to respond, but instead was directed to the Occupy event."

And who told the officer to do that? An Occupy person, or the officer's superior officer? Then the problem was caused by the police department and not by the Occupy movement. Are you saying the police, uhhh, goofed? Mis-allocated their resources, perhaps? Then you're right.

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Saturday, February 25, 2012 10:51 AM

It is not in my rebellious nature to defend the "gestapo pig cops." But I like to be fair.

Their situation is moving in the direction of Soylent Green: impossible to perform one's duties.
They are always understaffed and tired. There is always trouble. Their lives are at risk.
Officers in charge don't have enough resources to allocate on good day, so misallocation on a bad day is inevitable.
Under the circumstances, there's no way they can get it right.
It is both cheap and lazy to blame them on this one.

Daniel Jordan Dewitt is the one who killed Peter Cukor. Dewitt is mentally ill. People tend to have contempt for the
mentally ill and few will speak up for them. The mental health system has tragically failed mental patients all my
life. But since crazy and stupid are not the same thing, the more intelligent mental patients do stand a chance.

Shit Happens.

"All I suggest is a man hears what he wants to hear, and disregards the rest" ~Paul Simon

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Saturday, February 25, 2012 11:49 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Oonjerah:

It is not in my rebellious nature to defend the "gestapo pig cops." But I like to be fair.

Their situation is moving in the direction of Soylent Green: impossible to perform one's duties.
They are always understaffed and tired. There is always trouble. Their lives are at risk.
Officers in charge don't have enough resources to allocate on good day, so misallocation on a bad day is inevitable.
Under the circumstances, there's no way they can get it right.
It is both cheap and lazy to blame them on this one.

Seems even cheaper and lazier to blame Occupy for this one. Might as well blame budget cuts or the economic collapse.

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Saturday, February 25, 2012 11:51 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
Quote:
Originally posted by Niki2: It's just bullshit talking points; they think they're right, they WANT to be right, and nothing will ever change that.

It's not a 'talking point'.

A man died because a call to 911 was made, and an officer was told NOT to respond, but instead was directed to the Occupy event.

And do what, exactly?

Stand there and watch idiots complain about absolutely nothing of which they have any answers for. They're just there to whine and complain, and occasionally destroy other people's property.

So we are in complete agreement, then: this was a bad call by the cops and those in charge, sending this officer to where he plainly wasn't needed, instead of sending him where he WAS needed.

So why aren't you directing your anger at the police?

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Saturday, February 25, 2012 12:50 PM

Quote Kwicko, "Seems even cheaper and lazier to blame Occupy for this one. Might as well blame budget cuts or the economic collapse."

I Don't blame Occupy. Protest, activism is needed now. I Do blame the economic collapse. I blame the economic
collapse on big business, banks, overspending. <= Mostly the Republicans. I am not even sure it was an accident.

I also blame US, the common people. I was raised to think we could make a difference. But I, for one, always ignored
that responsibility.

I am not even sure how to become responsible. Communication is needed. It would be good to know what happened,
how it happened, who did it. (See documentary Inside Job.) Then together, figure out some solutions. We the people
are in deep trouble. How can we help ourselves? That is what I want to know.

Rising Sun, 1993. John Connor: "The Japanese have a saying, 'Fix the problem, not the blame.' Find out what's fucked up
and fix it. Nobody gets blamed. We're always after who fucked up. Their way is better."

Protest is good, but limited. I can blame TPTB, & I do. The point of the protest is to get public opinion stirred up to
demand positive changes. So then a buncha politicians jump on that and agree to fix it if we elect them. But they don't;
it keeps getting worse.

At some point I have to stop worrying about who started the fire; get the hell out of the burning house, put the fire out
myself, and build something better.

"All I suggest is a man hears what he wants to hear, and disregards the rest" ~Paul Simon

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Sunday, February 26, 2012 5:16 AM

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:

So why aren't you directing your anger at the police?

For the reasons I've already stated above. They're spread too thin, and this is wholly by design, by those who started this whole Occupy b.s. from the beginning. Maybe not those necessarily at each site, but the ones who dreamed up this whole civil unrest concept, to topple capitalism, going all the way back to the 60's radicals.

But as for this particular incident, my GUESS is that he police have general idea of how many officers are needed to cover an event like the Occupy protest, based on the expected size of the crowd,and likelihood of things getting out hand. Maybe the dispatch was going by protocol, maybe not. If there was a screw up, then it was only a matter of time before something like this was going to happen. Might have happened a few times, and we're just hearing about it now.

" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Sunday, February 26, 2012 6:43 AM

DALEK!

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
[What's that even suppose to mean? Is that suppose to be some sort of threat ? You didn't answer the question.

It means that you better go and start supporting the movement. You can take it as a threat or a promise. When all is said and done you will be with the new order or fall with the old.

;)

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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Sunday, February 26, 2012 7:04 AM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Excellently said, Oonj, and right on target. Local and state budgets have been cut, and cut, and cut again so that fire stations are being closed, schools shut down, police and others laid off, and it gets harder and harder to allocate resources. Cuts from the federal level in the middle of a recession have left many, MANY cities in America short-staffed because state and local budgets can't take up the slack. Everyone knows this, and if you check it out, it's very clear WHO demanded the federal cuts. Add that to human fallibility, and I'm damned sure this isn't the only instance of either or both happening which caused someone's loss of life. You'll get no argument from me on that one! Whether miscommunication or outright deception, for some reason someone got something wrong.

Let me ask you this: UCPD has 64 officers. Berkeley PD has 162 officers. That's 226 all together--say only 1/3 of them were on duty. No, wait, let's say 1/4, some would be on vacation, some disabled, etc. That's still 56 officers. The march in question had 60participants, and only "officially" started at 9:00. The murder (after at least two calls for help) happened at 8:45. How does that make any sense?

It doesn't. Something is wrong somewhere, so this entire story is screwed up somewhere; I don't know where, but the desperation of blaming Occupy isn't worth paying attention to in the slightest...claims that this the "plan" of Occupy and that they're to blame for this man's death are just too absurd to even address, especially given the facts. And I already gave you the facts, plus those I just enumerated. This whole discussion is ridiculous in the extreme.

Nonetheless, what Oonj wrote is absolutely right on, so thank you for some common sense among the senseless, Oonj.

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Sunday, February 26, 2012 7:10 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Hello,

I'll say this about that.

The people in this country have a right to speak, to gather, to march, to protest.

This appears to be what was happening in this instance.

Anyone making the argument that these people are to blame for exercising their rights is making what I consider to be a dangerous suggestion.

--Anthony

_______________________________________________

"In every war, the state enacts a tax of freedom upon the citizenry. The unspoken promise is that the tax shall be revoked at war's end. Endless war holds no such promise. Hence, Eternal War is Eternal Slavery." --Admiral Robert J. Henner

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Sunday, February 26, 2012 8:24 AM

MUTT999

Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:
Hello,
I'll say this about that.
The people in this country have a right to speak, to gather, to march, to protest.
This appears to be what was happening in this instance.
Anyone making the argument that these people are to blame for exercising their rights is making what I consider to be a dangerous suggestion.

You're mostly right AnthonyT. But I feel when a group like Occupy, which has a violent, criminal, and anarchistic history, infringes upon other's rights, then they lose that right.

Now maybe this "march" turned out to be non-eventful, but with their history, the cops couldn't take any chances. This is why I stand behind what I said before, maybe Occupy didn't pull the trigger, but I still blame them for that guy's death. You guys can spin this tragedy any way you want, but that's how I feel.

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Sunday, February 26, 2012 8:42 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by MUTT999:
Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:
Hello,
I'll say this about that.
The people in this country have a right to speak, to gather, to march, to protest.
This appears to be what was happening in this instance.
Anyone making the argument that these people are to blame for exercising their rights is making what I consider to be a dangerous suggestion.

You're mostly right AnthonyT. But I feel when a group like Occupy, which has a violent, criminal, and anarchistic history, infringes upon other's rights, then they lose that right.

So if I can show you even one single tea-bagger who has a criminal record, you'll agree that the tea-baggers should lose their rights to gather and protest? Am I understanding you correctly?

Quote:

Now maybe this "march" turned out to be non-eventful, but with their history, the cops couldn't take any chances. This is why I stand behind what I said before, maybe Occupy didn't pull the trigger, but I still blame them for that guy's death. You guys can spin this tragedy any way you want, but that's how I feel.

Do you hold tea-baggers responsible for every crime committed in the cities where they're protesting? Seems more than a little hypocritical if you don't.

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Sunday, February 26, 2012 8:48 AM

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:

Anyone making the argument that these people are to blame for exercising their rights is making what I consider to be a dangerous suggestion.

--Anthony

And yet, Nancy Pelosi was all teary eyed and fearful of the 'angry rhetoric', coming from the TEA party rallies. The TEA parties, which were peaceful, well mannered, lawful... those got all the scorn from the Left, but the Occupy crowds cause damage, attract crime, and violently engage w/ the local authorities... they're actually doing what Ms Pelosi feared from the TEA party, and all we hear from her is " god bless them ".

" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Sunday, February 26, 2012 8:59 AM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Mutt, you obviously hate the Occupy movement, for whatever reasons. But they definitely do not have "a violent, criminal, and anarchistic history"--their history only goes back to September of last year, if you want to call that "history", and aside from civil disobedience in not dispersing (for which they have paid a heavy price), they have not been criminal or anarchistic. You've bought into the MSM and right-wing propaganda which has portrayed actions by others as attributable to Occupy. It's a lie. The only violence has been that of fighting back against police who have done FAR more harm to the individuals in the movement than any of them have done to the police, and said violence by Occupy was ALWAYS in retaliation, not in offense.

I realize your mindset against Occupy is so hard-wired that none of this will get through to you, I can only hope that someday you are able to see how you've been manipulated into your beliefs. Hoping you might actually look into the facts to find out for yourself is obviously a futile wish, so I won't bother with that.

By the way, at yesterday's demonstration, aside from the usual honks of approval and people walking by thanking us for being there, we were waved at and smiled at by two separate police cars (they keep an eye on us). Our relationship with the police is quite friendly and we communicate often. Things are different across the Bay--thank gawd I don't live over there!--but MANY police departments have taken the time to work WITH Occupy to allow their demonstrations, and in those instances there has been no violence whatsoever.

You people only hear about the "if it bleeds, it leads" stories; you never hear about the thousands (yes, literally THOUSANDS) of peaceful protests Occupy has held...including the over-700 strong action at San Quentin last week. You didn't hear about it because there was nothing worth reporting for the MSM; no violence took place, so they don't care.

You can continue to hate us and rant against us; it will never change the actual FACTS.

ETA: Everything you attribute to Occupy has been said many times over many years about EVERY attempt at peaceful protest in America. I was there for the Vietnam protests, the People's Park mess, marches against the Iraq war, and marched in one anti-nuke demonstration. The way all were portrayed in the MSM is PRECISELY how Occupy is being portrayed now. TPTB never like anyone to make a fuss; if they dare to, they're portrayed as anarchists, violent, criminal, unwashed hooligans. That will never change.

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Sunday, February 26, 2012 9:10 AM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Quote:
the Occupy crowds cause damage, attract crime, and violently engage w/ the local authorities

Ironically, I find that remark promising. At the very least, Raptor, it appears as if you have recognized some facts. We will never agree, of course, but at least you've chosen to acknowledge that those unaffiliated with Occupy have taken advantage of the situation in order to commit crimes, that damage has been caused (I agree, tho' how much of it was caused and by WHOM, we could argue...I nonetheless admit that damage has been caused, and some of it by people within the Occupy actions), and that there have been violent ENGAGEMENTS with local authorities (whether instigated by those authorities or not). You also left out "murder", "rape", and any number of the other things you used to accuse us of.

You probably won't thank me for it, but your wording is an improvement over the blind accusations you have previously made of us and far better than the repeated propaganda Mutt hurls at us, and I'm grateful for it. I don't know quite what caused this change, or if it was even intentional, but I'd like to think it was deliberate and shows a bit of an opening of your eyes. I wouldn't hope to ask for more.

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Sunday, February 26, 2012 10:09 AM

Some things are against the Law of the Land to say. I think this includes sedition, inciting to riot, liabel.

I, on the Left, have the right to express my opinion. I can say what I want and advise others whether I am wise or foolish,
honest or a dedicated liar.

Those on the Right can do the same. It is fair that I listen to them, just as I want to be heard.

I can listen to those who disagree with me, then treat them respectfully or with contempt. If I treat them respectfully,
it gives me dignity and credibility.

We still have freedom of speech, the right to gather and debate.

We Must keep this right. Don't let it burn down with the house.

Personal responsibility is the Truth.
Self determination triumphs over reaction.

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Sunday, February 26, 2012 11:32 AM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Thank you, Oonj. I only wish...

Judging what he put up as

Quote:
And make NO mistake... this is absolutely by design, from those who on the Left, who want chaos and to destabilize the system.

doesn't exactly fit into that category, sadly.

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Sunday, February 26, 2012 2:50 PM

FREMDFIRMA

Quote:
Originally posted by MUTT999:
But I feel when a group like Occupy, which has a violent, criminal, and anarchistic history, infringes upon other's rights, then they lose that right.

Tory bastard.

One could say the same of our nations founders, who WERE, at the time violent, criminal and anarchistic, were they not ?

You don't win in the political arena by allowing your opponents to write the rulebook and force you to play by it when they are not bound by such, all you do is spin your wheels in futility while they laugh, which is in fact my *ISSUE* with Occupy and why I don't support em.

Plus that notion of losing ones rights in response to infringing on others - can I take that as you being willing to revoke all religious protections currently assigned to Christianity for infringing on my rights as a human being by forcing religious LAWS incompatible with MY theology/philosophy/morality down my throat under the threat of Government violence ?

For that matter, in respect to the infringement of rights, given the conduct of OUR OWN GOVERNMENT, and it's proven, demonstrable lack of respect for, and repeated infringement of, both our Constititional, and Human Rights, thus loses all legitimacy and so we're essentially talking about two groups of thugs by that perspective, one of which simply has more personnel and hardware than the other.

Unless you'd like to make a logically consistent argument instead of spouting laughable distortions and patent falsehoods, that is.

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

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Sunday, February 26, 2012 8:57 PM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht

I don't think we can blame Occupy for this, the police force should have been assigned to duties better, plus stuff at a protest doesn't really start "heating up" until a little later in it, so police could have gotten there at 9:30 or so without incident most like. I think this is something we can blame on the police force scheduling techniques, the dispatch following those scheduling techniques and there's that whole mental illness variable, though certainly most people with mental health differences wouldn't do this, but there will always be some who are affected in that fashion. But more directly we can blame the police/dispatch. I don't see Occupy as a culprit here.

Raptor, you're beginning to sound almost as conspiratorial as our friend PN, not as bad of course but lately the things you've been saying have been slanting that direction. Of course even PN is right sometimes, but I don't think this was planned, I think it was poor judgement by the local police force.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

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Monday, February 27, 2012 1:08 AM

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by RionaEire:

Raptor, you're beginning to sound almost as conspiratorial as our friend PN, not as bad of course but lately the things you've been saying have been slanting that direction. Of course even PN is right sometimes, but I don't think this was planned, I think it was poor judgement by the local police force.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

"M52NICKERSON
I am the Polish Viking!
Friday, February 24, 2012 - 07:40

Your right Rappy Occupy does want to tear down the system. "

These are the sorts of things which are inevitably going to happen when the police are over stretched this much for this long. The forces aren't designed for such extended protests like the Occupy stunts. No one is suppose to look at the bigger picture, but once you do, and start seeing the rapes, the destruction, the violence...

It stops being a conspiracy when it's being done out in the open, and they readily admit this is exactly what they WANT to happen.

" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Monday, February 27, 2012 2:42 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:

These are the sorts of things which are inevitably going to happen when the police are over stretched this much for this long. The forces aren't designed for such extended protests like the Occupy stunts. No one is suppose to look at the bigger picture, but once you do, and start seeing the rapes, the destruction, the violence...

So you finally admit that Bush and the GOP were trying to wreck the economy and destroy the country all along, eh? After all, these are the sorts of things which are inevitably going to happen when you get embroiled in two decade-long wars at the same time.

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Monday, February 27, 2012 8:47 AM

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:

These are the sorts of things which are inevitably going to happen when the police are over stretched this much for this long. The forces aren't designed for such extended protests like the Occupy stunts. No one is suppose to look at the bigger picture, but once you do, and start seeing the rapes, the destruction, the violence...

So you finally admit that Bush and the GOP were trying to wreck the economy and destroy the country all along, eh? After all, these are the sorts of things which are inevitably going to happen when you get embroiled in two decade-long wars at the same time.

Umm, no, because that's not what happened.

The Dems were responsible for the economic crash, primarily, and the two wars had little to do w/ it.

I know you don't even believe what you're saying, that you're simply attempting to start an argument , for the sake of starting an argument, but I'll leave you to play w/ yourself.

" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Monday, February 27, 2012 9:08 AM

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

That was my first LOL of the day. But don't worry, I'm laughing at you, not with you.

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Monday, February 27, 2012 9:08 AM