REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Chicago thug politics - Obama's tyrannical DOJ in action.

POSTED BY: AURAPTOR
UPDATED: Tuesday, February 28, 2012 16:27
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Saturday, February 25, 2012 8:44 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!




Business raided,citizens harassed, property seized, no charges filed.


" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Saturday, February 25, 2012 11:00 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!



Did the point that the CEO of Gibson contributes $ to the GOP not make it on to the video?

Probably just a coincidence.


" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Saturday, February 25, 2012 11:12 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Hello,

I want to be sure I understand your premise.

Obama sent officers of the law to raid Gibson Guitars because they donated money to the GOP?

Is that what you are saying?

--Anthony

_______________________________________________

"In every war, the state enacts a tax of freedom upon the citizenry. The unspoken promise is that the tax shall be revoked at war's end. Endless war holds no such promise. Hence, Eternal War is Eternal Slavery." --Admiral Robert J. Henner


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Saturday, February 25, 2012 1:39 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!



That's exactly what I'm saying. That, & the fact one of Gibson's competitors contributes to the dnc.

Obama justice , baby.


" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Saturday, February 25, 2012 2:03 PM

OONJERAH



But now that he sees how their campaign is going, Obama may want to donate to the GOP.
"Fund more gaffes!"



Personal responsibility is the Truth.
Self determination triumphs over reaction.

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Saturday, February 25, 2012 2:24 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

That's exactly what I'm saying. That, & the fact one of Gibson's competitors contributes to the dnc.



"ONE of Gibson's competitors"? You're hanging your entire conspiracy theory on ONE competitor out of dozens, if not hundreds?

There are a lot of guitar companies out there. Hell, at one point I had 17 different examples, with only a few made by the same companies. There were Gibson, Fender, Ibanez, Dean, Washburn, Ovation, Alvarez, Arbor, BC Rich, Carvin, and more. I would imagine that some of them give money to one campaign or another, and some probably give to both sides.

How many of them have been raided?

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Saturday, February 25, 2012 5:01 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
Quote:

That's exactly what I'm saying. That, & the fact one of Gibson's competitors contributes to the dnc.



"ONE of Gibson's competitors"? You're hanging your entire conspiracy theory on ONE competitor out of dozens, if not hundreds?



Not dozens... just one.

One of Gibson’s leading competitors is C.F. Martin & Company. The C.E.O., Chris Martin IV, is a long-time Democratic supporter, with $35,400 in contributions to Democratic candidates and the DNC over the past couple of election cycles. According to C.F. Martin’s catalog, several of their guitars contain “East Indian Rosewood.” In case you were wondering, that is the exact same wood in at least ten of Gibson’s guitars.

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Saturday, February 25, 2012 5:33 PM

OONJERAH



Quote Auraptor: "According to C.F. Martin’s catalog, several of their guitars contain 'East Indian Rosewood.'
In case you were wondering, that is the exact same wood in at least ten of Gibson’s guitars."

Oonjerah the snail is wondering, How is this ominous?



Personal responsibility is the Truth.
Self determination triumphs over reaction.

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Sunday, February 26, 2012 3:11 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by Oonjerah:

Quote Auraptor: "According to C.F. Martin’s catalog, several of their guitars contain 'East Indian Rosewood.'
In case you were wondering, that is the exact same wood in at least ten of Gibson’s guitars."

Oonjerah the snail is wondering, How is this ominous?




How is it NOT ominous, you mean ?

That's the reason given by the govt raiding Gibson's business, TWICE, confiscated half a million dollars in materials, but has yet to charge Gibson with any crime.


" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Sunday, February 26, 2012 4:06 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


So.... East Indian rosewood. Is there any proof that C.F. Martin doesn't have a stockpile of OLD rosewood that was grandfathered in, and maybe Gibson DOESN'T?


I was at the gun range yesterday and got to talking with a guy who had a pair of Ingram MAC-10 machine pistols, firing away and having a great time, and letting pretty much anyone who asked fire off a magazine or two. So here are two fully-automatic, 1000 round-per-minute machineguns, which are totally legal to own and fire, but are totally ILLEGAL to manufacture today. Why? Because these weren't illegal when they were made, but were made illegal by the stroke of a pen - but the originals are still perfectly legal.

So have you ever thought to ask if Martin & Co. saw the coming ban looming, and maybe stockpiled this wood because they knew it would be unavailable in the future?

Or is your entire case hinged upon "they're Democrats!"?

I'd also question the assertion that Martin is "one of Gibson's leading competitors"; Martin is relatively tiny; Gibson is relatively huge. Gibson's main competitor is and has always been Fender. Who did Fender support, and were they raided?

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Sunday, February 26, 2012 4:13 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
So.... East Indian rosewood. Is there any proof that C.F. Martin doesn't have a stockpile of OLD rosewood that was grandfathered in, and maybe Gibson DOESN'T?



To date, after 2 raids and materials confiscated, no charges have been filed. But apologize for the actions of the administration all day long. I'd expect nothing less from you.

Just like Fast and Furious, XL Pipeline decision, the Boeing plant in S.C., recess appointments when Congress isn't in recess... I could do this all day long.


" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Sunday, February 26, 2012 4:17 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
So.... East Indian rosewood. Is there any proof that C.F. Martin doesn't have a stockpile of OLD rosewood that was grandfathered in, and maybe Gibson DOESN'T?



To date, after 2 raids and materials confiscated, no charges have been filed. But apologize for the actions of the administration all day long. I'd expect nothing less from you.

Just like Fast and Furious, XL Pipeline decision, the Boeing plant in S.C., recess appointments when Congress isn't in recess... I could do this all day long.


" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "




Show me where I apologized for the actions of the administration, or admit you're lying. Put up or shut up.

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Sunday, February 26, 2012 4:19 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!



Not going to discuss the issue, I see.

Crassic.


" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Sunday, February 26, 2012 4:28 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Oh, I've already addressed the issue, which you of course had no valid response to, except to accuse me of apologizing for the administration, which I correctly called you on, because you were lying when you said that.



What evidence have you got that Martin is using illegal wood and being let slide? What evidence have you got that Gibson ISN'T using illegal wood?

You're basing your entire argument and opinion on this matter on who supported Democrats and who supported Republicans, which is the REAL refusal to address the REAL issue here, which is an issue of illegally-harvested and therefore contraband endangered wood.

But of course you won't talk about that, because then your whole argument goes in the dustbin with all your other petty gripes.

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Sunday, February 26, 2012 4:36 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!



It's not illegal, endangered wood. No explanation has been given. This is just a tyrannical , thuggish DOJ doing what it wants, at the behest of "someone". Not India.

You offering up imaginary excuses is playing the role of the apologists. There's no reason given, but the facts are the facts.

Gibson's CEO donates to the GOP
Martin donates to the Democrats.




" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Sunday, February 26, 2012 5:08 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:

It's not illegal, endangered wood. No explanation has been given. This is just a tyrannical , thuggish DOJ doing what it wants, at the behest of "someone". Not India.

You offering up imaginary excuses is playing the role of the apologists. There's no reason given, but the facts are the facts.

Gibson's CEO donates to the GOP
Martin donates to the Democrats.




Still haven't shown where I apologized for anyone, have you? Because you can't, of course. Because you're lying, as usual.

You claim "the facts are the facts". Fact is, Martin has a solid paper trail backing and proving the provenance of the wood it uses, sourced all the way back to the tree. Gibson, it seems, doesn't. As usual, Democrats follow the law, while Republicans ignore it, going by the old adage "It's easier to ask forgiveness than permission."

Your argument about "facts" is weak in the extreme.

"Gibson's CEO donates to the GOP
Martin donates to the Democrats."

Post hoc, ergo propter hoc. After the event, therefore because of the event.

You've yet to present a case or address the real issue here, which is illegal importation of illegally-harvested wood. Why won't you address that? It is, after all, the reason for the raid, according to all sides. You're taking the position of essentially saying, "I don't care WHY they were raided - it's all because of campaign donations!" Your position is intractable; you're basically saying that illegal wood has nothing to do with it, and you might as well claim that you wouldn't care if the CEO had gigabytes of kiddie porn on his company computer, because that still wouldn't be a reason to raid the company.

Charges haven't been filed *YET*. Investigation still continues. Sources say internal e-mails show a pattern of knowingly using illegal wood, and that's where the investigation is focused.

So, still nothing to say of any substance about this issue?

Can't say I'm surprised. For you, all of life comes down to "me good, you bad," and any further thought or analysis is simply beyond your cognitive abilities.

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Sunday, February 26, 2012 5:21 AM

CAVETROLL


Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:

...I was at the gun range yesterday and got to talking with a guy who had a pair of Ingram MAC-10 machine pistols, firing away and having a great time, and letting pretty much anyone who asked fire off a magazine or two. So here are two fully-automatic, 1000 round-per-minute machineguns, which are totally legal to own and fire, but are totally ILLEGAL to manufacture today. Why? Because these weren't illegal when they were made, but were made illegal by the stroke of a pen - but the originals are still perfectly legal...




Perfectly legal to own, once you get a background check by the ATF that amounts to dentistry via proctology and pay a $200 tax stamp for each gun. AND that is IF your state says you can own them.

Not disagreeing with what you said, but it is over simplified.

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Sunday, February 26, 2012 5:26 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


You really are a mental midget, aren't you?

I clearly showed where you were an apologist for the administration on this matter. In no coherent, conceivable way am I " lying ".

The wood is not illegal or endangered. Nothing Gibson has done is wrong. There are no charges filed. This is what you're not getting, either because you're too stupid, or because you're merely being a troll, and think that acting like a child by saying the opposite of anything I say is fun.

Don't really know or care which, but it's sad, either way.

ETA -

Quote:


In an interview with KMJAM’s “The Chris Daniel Show,” Juszkiewicz revealed some startling information.

CHRIS DANIEL: Mr. Juszkiewicz, did an agent of the US government suggest to you that your problems would go away if you used Madagascar labor instead of American labor?

HENRY JUSZKIEWICZ: They actually wrote that in a pleading.

CHRIS DANIEL: Excuse me?

HENRY JUSKIEWICZ: They actually wrote that it a pleading.

CHRIS DANIEL: That your problems would go away if you used Madagascar labor instead of our labor?

HENRY JUSKIEWICZ: Yes

http://benhoweblog.files.wordpress.com/2011/09/gibson.mp3

So the government attacked them in the first place by citing obscure regulations that probably weren’t violated about importation of wood. Now they are suggesting that all these problems would go away if they simply exported their labor.

Had it simply been said in passing by an agent, one could write it off as a lone sarcastic agent, trying to push buttons. But the fact that they actually wrote it in the pleading is a level of hubris that goes well beyond over zealous law enforcement officials and passes straight into what can easily be translated as an out of control and corrupt targeting of an American corporation.

When President Obama gives his jobs speech next week, let’s hope he has an answer for why our government would want to force and coerce corporations to send jobs overseas.

Here’s the audio of the CEO making the incredible allegation:

http://www.redstate.com/aglanon/2011/08/25/doj-raids-gibson-guitars-lo
oking-for-illegal-wood
/




" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Sunday, February 26, 2012 6:46 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


My gawd you two: Get a ROOM! What a totally absurd argument, based on a totally absurd premise.

You must have really had to go some to dig that one up, A.U.--and Mike, don't you have ANYTHING better to do with your time than encourage this demented lout? Jeeez...



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Sunday, February 26, 2012 7:07 AM

OLDENGLANDDRY


Sigh- I pity you Auraptor, I realy do.

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Sunday, February 26, 2012 7:54 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!



Quote:

You must have really had to go some to dig that one up, A.U.


Actually, yes. I did. And you know WHY ? Because the Obama lovin' Left wing MSM doesn't want this to be reported, or at least not overly much.

Abu Ghraib will be pasted on the front page of the NY papers for how many days in a row? But Fast and Furious, WMD in Syria, this... anything that puts Obama in a bad light gets ignored or minimalized.

So, what do ya think, Niki. You're all in with the DOJ persecuting Gibson for apparently no reason, what so ever ?

Naw, just ignore that, and fuss at Mike for encouraging me.




" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Sunday, February 26, 2012 7:55 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by oldenglanddry:
Sigh- I pity you Auraptor, I realy do.



Do you pity the employees of Gibson, who have to deal with this gestapo like tactics?


" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Sunday, February 26, 2012 8:54 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by CaveTroll:
Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:

...I was at the gun range yesterday and got to talking with a guy who had a pair of Ingram MAC-10 machine pistols, firing away and having a great time, and letting pretty much anyone who asked fire off a magazine or two. So here are two fully-automatic, 1000 round-per-minute machineguns, which are totally legal to own and fire, but are totally ILLEGAL to manufacture today. Why? Because these weren't illegal when they were made, but were made illegal by the stroke of a pen - but the originals are still perfectly legal...




Perfectly legal to own, once you get a background check by the ATF that amounts to dentistry via proctology and pay a $200 tax stamp for each gun. AND that is IF your state says you can own them.

Not disagreeing with what you said, but it is over simplified.




Of course it's oversimplified a bit. Did you want me to post all 112,596 pages of federal, state, and local law on the matter? [/sarcasm]

Point being, things get grandfathered when new laws come into existence, or even when old laws are amended or updated, such as the 100-year-old Lacey Act, which is what pertains to the Gibson illegal wood issue. The law has been in effect for the better part of a century, and was expanded before Obama was even elected, but in RappyWorld™ every single thing is all Obama's fault.



"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Sunday, February 26, 2012 8:56 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
Quote:

Originally posted by oldenglanddry:
Sigh- I pity you Auraptor, I realy do.



Do you pity the employees of Gibson, who have to deal with this gestapo like tactics?




I pity them for working for a fuckin' moron who has no interest in complying with federal law when it comes to illegally-harvested endangered wood.

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Sunday, February 26, 2012 9:14 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:


I pity them for working for a fuckin' moron who has no interest in complying with federal law when it comes to illegally-harvested endangered wood.




And there we have it everyone. The textbook definition of a useful idiot.

Well done, Kwickie. Well done indeed.




" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Sunday, February 26, 2012 11:22 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Okay, sigh, I took the time to watch the video. Then I went looking for further information. I found that the amendment to the Lacy law was done by Bush, so go scream at him if you want.

Gibson was raided in 2009 for importing illegally-logged wood from Madagascar. Sorry, that's enough to give them a good black eye as far as I'm concerned.

The idea that it's a "conspiracy" by Obama makes me laugh, especially given all the effort Alt.Univ. must have gone to in order to hunt it up.

Also, apparently the guy lied about SWAT teams being there, and another manufacturer, Taylor, has no problem with it:
Quote:

Despite the blowback, supporters of the government’s efforts say there are good reasons to enforce the regulations.

“I don’t think [people are] getting the full story,” said Rep. Earl Blumenauer (D-Oregon). “It’s part of a nice narrative of overregulation if you don’t look at the facts.

“If you are a huge corporation and you’re using volumes of expensive wood, you’d think people would take great care that they would know where it came from,” Blumenauer said, adding: “This is important legislation to protect American jobs, the environment, the countries victimized and our economy.”

The law that Gibson is struggling with was passed in the waning days of the Bush administration in a 2008 amendment to the 111-year-old Lacey Act, which prohibits illegal trafficking in wildlife, fish and plants. The amendment requires that certain plants and plant products be accompanied by an import declaration to ensure they were taken legally from the exporting country.

Some guitar manufacturers say they’ve had no problem complying with the 2008 law.

“It’s complicated, but doable,” said Charlie Redden, supply chain manager for Taylor Guitars, a California-based manufacturer of both acoustic and electric guitars. “It’s something we’ve practiced at Taylor for years. The important part is to start at the beginning and watch it through the supply chain to make sure the laws are being followed in every country, including U.S. Customs.”

Jameson French of the Hardwood Federation, an industry trade association, said the goal of the law was always to use the limited resources of the Justice Department and the Fish and Wildlife Service to go after the most egregious and highest-profile cases of illegal logging. Companies are given flexibility in how they ensure they comply, French said, which keeps them from being buried beneath unnecessary paperwork.

“From a business perspective, that’s a good law, versus a far more regulatory and bureaucratic legislation,” French said.

Under the 2008 legislation, importers are required to list the species and origin of the wood they bring into the country. For manufacturers, compliance may mean verifying the supply chain from their wood distributors, using whatever means necessary to ensure they are not importing illegal products.

At Taylor, that meant company representatives traveled to foreign countries to meet with producers and wood cutters and set up relationships with their suppliers to ensure they are following local laws, Redden said.

Justice and Interior officials said that during the raid, officers carried side arms and wore badges and clothing to identify themselves as agents. But they said no SWAT teams were used in the search, as Juszkiewicz later suggested.

To suggest that officers shouldn’t have executed a search warrant during an investigation of a possible crime is ludicrous, said Andrea Johnson, forest campaign director of the Environmental Investigation Agency, a nongovernmental organization that probes environmental crimes and launches public campaigns against them.

“It undermines the seriousness of the idea that environmental crimes can be crimes,” Johnson said. “The underlying message is ‘it’s just wood.’ … The reality is illegal logging is a crime.” http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0911/64563.html in all, I maintain my impression that this is just one more thing Alt.Univ. dug up to put forward his "case" that Obama is the anti-Christ, or somesuch. Gibson didn't do "due diligence"; others did. Gibson's screaming about it, Alt.Univ. grabbed it to try and prove some Obama "conspiracy" and "thug politics". What a waste of time and effort!

Mike's right; they didn't follow the law and now they're screaming about it. Certainly may be a case of government overreach, but from all I read in several articles, the Lacy Law amendment is pretty broadly and poorly written. The amendment was written under Bush...you wanna go after HIM for it being badly written?



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Sunday, February 26, 2012 11:56 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!



Mike's not right, and they DID follow the law. The loose interpretation of this amended law is the issue here.


" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Sunday, February 26, 2012 12:51 PM

STORYMARK


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:


I clearly showed where you were an apologist for the administration on this matter. In no coherent, conceivable way am I " lying ".



He called you a liar, because you are a fucking liar.

Not once did you show how he appologized. When he asked you to - all you did was accuse him of not discussing the topic - which is rediculous, since he clearly had.

But not once did you show where he appologized for anyone or anything.

As much as you may like to think it - repetition of a lie does not make something true.

You really are pitiable.

"Goram it kid, let's frak this thing and go home! Engage!"

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Monday, February 27, 2012 2:50 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
You really are a mental midget, aren't you?

I clearly showed where you were an apologist for the administration on this matter. In no coherent, conceivable way am I " lying ".

The wood is not illegal or endangered. Nothing Gibson has done is wrong. There are no charges filed. This is what you're not getting, either because you're too stupid, or because you're merely being a troll, and think that acting like a child by saying the opposite of anything I say is fun.

Don't really know or care which, but it's sad, either way.





Huh. This from the person who also gave us THIS gem:

"Name calling and ridicule isn't 'debate'. Not in the real world, at least."


Nice to see you admit you're not in the real world, though.

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Monday, February 27, 2012 3:21 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
Fact is, Martin has a solid paper trail backing and proving the provenance of the wood it uses, sourced all the way back to the tree.



Cite?

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Monday, February 27, 2012 4:34 AM

BYTEMITE


Quote:

Chris Martin IV, is a long-time Democratic supporter, with $35,400 in contributions to Democratic candidates and the DNC over the past couple of election cycles.


In the world of politics, relatively speaking, that's chump change.

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Monday, February 27, 2012 5:09 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Storybook,

I didn't lie. I gave a valid example. You not liking me doesn't change the facts.


Grow up.


" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Monday, February 27, 2012 7:08 AM

STORYMARK


No, you didn't. Just another in a long line of lies from RappyLand.

Grow up, indeed.

"Goram it kid, let's frak this thing and go home! Engage!"

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Monday, February 27, 2012 7:57 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


There may be more at work than initially understood:
Quote:

Glenn Hurowitz has a four-part series positing that the public-relations campaign around the Gibson case is more aimed at weakening the Lacey Act than defending an American guitar company. (So far, other manufacturers, such as the C.F. Martin & Co., have avoided trouble.) http://dotearth.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/10/08/drop-that-guitar-and-put-
up-your-hands/
with accusations that his company had illegally imported wood from Asia, Gibson Guitar CEO Henry Juszkiewicz launched a media campaign bashing the federal government’s action and criticizing aspects of the law he had allegedly broken — the Lacey Act, which bans the import of illegally logged forest products.

The reality is that the Lacey Act and other similar measures have enjoyed strong bipartisan support and enthusiastic backing from the American forest products industry. The amendments to the Lacey Act that prohibit the import of illegally logged or traded goods were passed with the strong support of the George W. Bush administration in 2008, with bipartisan Senate co-sponsors in Lamar Alexander (from Gibson’s home state of Tennessee) and Ron Wyden of Oregon.

The reason: American forest products growers, companies, and workers were being asked to compete with foreign operators who employ slave and child labor, and log in national parks and other areas without permission and without paying taxes — even companies that funded Taliban attacks on American soldiers. Competition from illegal imports costs the American forest products industry around $1 billion per year, representing thousands of lost jobs, according to a study by the American Forest & Paper Association.

Mark Barford, executive director of the Memphis-based National Hardwood Lumber Association put it succinctly: “We need the protection of the Lacey Act. We need a fair playing field. Our small, little companies cannot compete with artificially low prices from wood that comes in illegally … This is our Jobs Act.”

The economic benefit of the Lacey Act is why such an unusually wide array of groups support it: the Hardwood Federation (representing more than 13,000 companies across the U.S.), the American Forest & Paper Association, the United Steelworkers (who represent 100,000 pulp and paper workers), Lowe’s Home Improvement, Teamsters International, National Hardwood Lumber Association, International Paper, and hundreds of small and large companies alike, as well as a wide array of environmental groups.

“The [United Steelworkers] has seen true devastation among our members as multiple plants have closed or reduced production, in large part because of imports from nations where illegal logging is a large part of the timber supply,” said Holly Hart, the group’s Legislative Director, told the Chestertown (Ind.) Tribune.

Nonetheless, eager to jump on the latest Tea Party cause and bolstered by Boehner’s speech, some Republicans have been kicking around the idea of repealing or altering the Lacey Act to carve out exemptions for the guitar industry or other users of wood.

But Gibson is an outlier in its own industry. Other major guitar manufacturers have embraced Lacey Act compliance — and have found affordable, legal, sustainable, and super high quality hardwoods for their instruments. Here’s how Bob Taylor, CEO of Taylor Guitars, recently described his company’s approach to Lacey in a blog post for the Forest Legality Alliance:
Quote:

It’s very simple. We now investigate the sources of our wood, and we ensure to the best of our ability that the wood was taken legally. We fill out the paper work required and we present our business as an open book. The cost isn’t so much for us. It’s not an unbearable added burden, and we’re happy to do the extra administrative work.
Taylor continued:
Quote:

If I could take any user of wood, whether it be a guitar player or a purchaser of a dining room table, with me on a trip to the forest of 2011 in many, many parts of the world, and let them see with their own eyes the state of the forests and the people living in them, I’d stake my last dollar on the fact that they’d come home and preach with a loud voice how deforestation has got to be stopped. You have to see it to believe it, and if you haven’t seen it with your own eyes, you can’t argue against it. Period. I’m sorry, but that’s the truth.
The comparisons from within its own industry, as well as perhaps some genuine environmental conscience (Gibson has historically provided financial support for conservation efforts) has moved Juszkiewicz to put some space between himself and some of the Tea Party’s extreme calls to repeal or roll back significant parts of the Lacey Act. ”I believe we need government in this area to ensure that wood is used responsibly,” he told Greenwire in an interview.

Nonetheless, Juszkiewicz is scheduled to participate in a Tea Party rally in Nashville next Saturday, Oct. 8, sponsored by Americans for Prosperity and other Tea Party groups. And Gibson recently hired a Washington lobbying firm to explore the possibility of pushing amendments to the law.

However, outside of foreign interests associated with illegal logging, it’s hard to find a major constituency that doesn’t embrace the Lacey Act. In fact, until Gibson’s Tea Party campaign, support for Lacey seemed to be growing along with evidence that it is producing results. The law and similar measures passed in Europe, Japan, and elsewhere have produced a 22 percent decline in illegal logging around the globe. Just this past week, at a ceremony in New York, the Lacey Act was recognized by the United Nations as one of the world’s three most effective forest policies. http://grist.org/business-technology/2011-09-30-guitar-antihero-barkin
g-up-the-wrong-tree/
the quickest "cite" I could find re: Taylor's situation, and while it's a statement by Taylor itself, so can't be proven, I'm not going to put more time into it.

In the same series of articles, it appears that the GOP and Tea Party have grabbed onto this issue to make political hay, so I'm not sure which side should be excoriated more:
Quote:

If you’ve tuned into any of the major jobs speeches recently or the conservative media’s political coverage surrounding them, you’ve heard about newly minted Tea Party hero, Gibson Guitar CEO Henry Juszkiewicz. He was sitting in House Speaker John Boehner’s box during President Obama’s jobs speech. Boehner cited him in his own jobs speech a few days later. According to a count by the nonprofit Media Matters, Fox News has featured his company 24 times in the last couple of weeks.

Juszkiewicz’s elevation to conservative celebrity status may seem a little odd: His company is the subject of a civil case brought by the federal government for allegedly importing illegally logged wood. Federal agents recently raided several Gibson Guitar facilities, apparently on suspicion that the illegal imports continue even while the company faces federal action in the original case.

At a time when the GOP has been working overtime to tar the Obama administration for the FBI raid of failed solar panel maker and government loan recipient Solyndra, it raises the obvious question: Why would party leaders associate themselves with a company suspected of committing crimes that not only contribute to horrific environmental destruction and corruption in developing countries — but also put legitimate American timber growers, manufacturers, and workers out of business?

The answers shed light on a disturbing trend among too many in the GOP to unquestioningly adopt Tea Party causes. But this is also a story of how foreign companies are finding a new vehicle to advance their lobbying interests in the United States. Just as Asian timber interests have launched a marketing and lobbying campaign to gain access to American markets for questionably logged wood and paper, Tea Party groups are diverting members’ attention to push these same corporate interests, rather than the broad conservative agenda they signed up for.

On August 24, federal agents knocked on the doors of Gibson Guitar headquarters and factories in Nashville, Tenn., and seized large quantities of imported wood. The company, famous for its Les Paul guitars, had apparently aroused suspicion for importing guitar fingerboards from India under false pretences — claiming the wood was “veneer” when it was allegedly sawn lumber exported in violation of the Lacey Act, a federal law that prohibits trafficking in illegally harvested plants and animals. On further investigation, according to an affidavit in the case, agents found evidence that Gibson had allegedly committed similar offenses 11 previous times.

These were serious accusations, especially because Gibson was already facing a civil action brought by the federal government for allegedly importing illegally logged wood from Madagascar — and had already been raided in that case. Although not all facts in the case are known, a filing by the federal government suggests that Gibson officials knew that the wood they were importing was off limits. The filing quotes a Gibson employee who visited Madagascar in 2008 and reported back in an email:
Quote:

The true Ebony species preferred by Gibson Musical Instruments is found only in Madagascar (Diospyros perrieri). This is a slow-growing tree species with very little conservation protection and supplies are considered to be highly threatened in its native environment due to over exploitation … All legal timber and wood exports are PROHIBITED because of wide spread corruption and theft of valuable woods like rosewood and ebony.
In other words, Gibson officials apparently knew that the wood came from what they called a “grey market,” but, according to the federal suit, they imported it anyway.

What’s worse, the company appears to have continued exporting the ebony even after Madagascar’s 2009 coup, which led to prolonged lawlessness and caused the United States to cut off aid to the country (including conservation aid). In the aftermath of the coup, Chinese logging gangs pillaged Madagascar’s national parks, focusing on high-value export species like ebony. The BBC and other news outlets documented severe abuses by logging operations, including slaughtering endangered wildlife. http://grist.org/politics/2011-09-27-guitar-antihero/]

Apparently Martin and Taylor guitar makers feel differently from Gibson, so it's not just Martin:
Quote:

Taylor also had a response to those critics who question the relevance of the Lacey Act for instrument manufacturers: “We’re living through a time of transition from one type of economy to another economy. Many builders view the Lacey Act as flawed and more trouble than it’s worth. We’re at a tricky in-between stage, but the situation will become easier again in the future once we know what the rules are.”

“We should embrace it and go with the flow instead of trying to fight what we can’t change. If it’s good, we should see what we can do to make it better. This is just one more step toward working in a global world with a global mindset. Hopefully we can build some great guitars and do some good along the way.”

Chris Martin also commented on his company’s buying policy with regards to Madagascan rosewood, the purchase of which has caused so many problems for Gibson guitars: “What we heard was the international community has come to the conclusion that the coup created an illegitimate government. That’s when we said, ‘Okay, we can not buy any more of this wood.’

Following a 2009 military coup which saw the overthrow of the environmentally progressive President Marc Ravalomanana, huge quantities of rosewood and ebony were stripped from Madagascar’s rapidly shrinking National Parks.

While Gibson guitars is claiming that they have legal export papers for the rosewood seized under the Lacey Act, there is little doubt that the most of the precious hardwood exported from Madagacar, post-coup, originated from protected areas and hence was illegally logged. http://soundandfair.org/taylor-and-martin-guitars-express-support-for-
the-lacey-act
just sloppy due diligence, but it appears to me that they should have known and were using the excuse that they had legal export papers. Given their past actions and the fact that there were 11 instances of them breaking the law previously, I'm not surprised they were raided again. Put together their being championed by the Tea Party and their actions, it seems to me this is a story (which is ALL over the internet) intended to gin up a case against both the Obama administration and the Lacey Act.



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Monday, February 27, 2012 8:12 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by Storymark:

He called you a liar, because you are a fucking liar.


No, I'm not. I beg you to show where I lied. Please.

Quote:


Not once did you show how he appologized. When he asked you to - all you did was accuse him of not discussing the topic - which is rediculous, since he clearly had.



I never SAID he " apologized ", you brainless twit. I said Kwickie was an " apologist ".

a·pol·o·gist   [uh-pol-uh-jist] Show IPA
noun
1.
a person who makes a defense in speech or writing of a belief, idea, etc.


Quote:



But not once did you show where he appologized for anyone or anything.



Funny, but you repeat the ignoramus claim, again!

Quote:

As much as you may like to think it - repetition of a lie does not make something true.
Yeah, you might want to look at your own posts about that!




" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Monday, February 27, 2012 8:18 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


As a regulator, I have had occasion to deal with many companies looking to wriggle out of penalties by hook or by crook. I listened to the video, and it is replete with the half-truths and omissions which characterize a dishonest defense.

I'm not going to spend a lot of time detailing exactly where the video shaves the truth, but I've heard it all before and it's nothing more than whinging and hot air,

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Monday, February 27, 2012 8:22 AM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


You all know what's behind this series of little Rappy threads - right? He's looking at the GOP field in despair. And all he's doing is kicking the dog by trying to make life miserable for everyone else.

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Monday, February 27, 2012 8:28 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by 1kiki:
You all know what's behind this series of little Rappy threads - right? He's looking at the GOP field in despair. And all he's doing is kicking the dog by trying to make life miserable for everyone else.



You go right ahead and ignore the thuggish treatment of American citizens by this group of radicals in power. It's who you are, it's what yo do... I GET that. But when you act so surprised when real American stand up and point out these sorts of tactics... it is to laugh.


" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Monday, February 27, 2012 8:29 AM

STORYMARK


Quote:

Originally posted by 1kiki:
You all know what's behind this series of little Rappy threads - right? He's looking at the GOP field in despair. And all he's doing is kicking the dog by trying to make life miserable for everyone else.



A good observation.

As the GOP melts down, he gets less and less rational (and the bar was set pretty damned low to begin with).

Fun times.

"Goram it kid, let's frak this thing and go home! Engage!"

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Monday, February 27, 2012 8:32 AM

STORYMARK


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
You go right ahead and ignore the thuggish treatment of American citizens by this group of radicals in power. It's who you are, it's what yo do... I GET that. But when you act so surprised when real American stand up and point out these sorts of tactics... it is to laugh.




Just too funny.

thuggish

radical

real America

And you say you don't use talking points. What makes it so adorable is you actually believe it - and don't get why you're a laughing stock.

Keep it up. You are endlessly entertaining to the rest of us.

"Goram it kid, let's frak this thing and go home! Engage!"

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Monday, February 27, 2012 9:06 AM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


"As the GOP melts down, he gets less and less rational (and the bar was set pretty damned low to begin with)."

Yes, gone are the heady days of the past when little Rappy would endlessly post YAY RAH! cheerleading posts extolling the latest GOP poll leader or potential candidate du jour.

And now he's left with frustration and despair.

So he's down to incoherent insults and trolling.

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Monday, February 27, 2012 9:47 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

You go right ahead and ignore the thuggish treatment of American citizens by this group of radicals in power.
You really want to talk about thuggish treatment of American citizens by people in power? How about fraudulent home foreclosures?

Huh. I'll bet that's where your conversation about thuggish treatment comes to a screeching halt.

Well, nobody ever accused you of rationality. (ratio, to measure one against the other)

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Monday, February 27, 2012 10:51 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by 1kiki:
"As the GOP melts down, he gets less and less rational (and the bar was set pretty damned low to begin with)."

Yes, gone are the heady days of the past when little Rappy would endlessly post YAY RAH! cheerleading posts extolling the latest GOP poll leader or potential candidate du jour.

And now he's left with frustration and despair.

So he's down to incoherent insults and trolling.



Lots of revisionist history going on here. Sorry, but wrong is wrong. No matter which party is melting down or in power.


" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Monday, February 27, 2012 12:54 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
Quote:

Originally posted by Storymark:

He called you a liar, because you are a fucking liar.


No, I'm not. I beg you to show where I lied. Please.



Right here, in this post from above:

Quote:



To date, after 2 raids and materials confiscated, no charges have been filed. But apologize for the actions of the administration all day long. I'd expect nothing less from you.




Soooo... When you addressed that specifically to me, quoting my reply to preface your response to me, are you now trying to backtrack and say you DIDN'T say what you so clearly said?

You didn't call me an "apologist" in that post; you flat-out said that I apologized for the administration.

And I asked you to show me where I did that, or admit your lie. To date, you can't show me where I apologized, so one can only be left with one rational conclusion.

Quote:



I never SAID he " apologized ", you brainless twit. I said Kwickie was an " apologist ".




Again, you lie. You did indeed claim that I apologized. Look at it - I just quoted it for you. Hell, I even grabbed screenshots just in case you try to squirm your way out of it!

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Monday, February 27, 2012 12:57 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Didn't lie. Said both, didn't remember the 'apology' bit. So I was wrong. I didn't 'lie'.




" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Monday, February 27, 2012 1:38 PM

STORYMARK


LOL.

Priceless.

He didn't lie - he forgot. An excuse Im suuuure he'd willingly accept of anyone else. LOL. Riiiiight.

So, now that you have been reminded - you should be able to point out where he did the appologizing, right? Right?

"Goram it kid, let's frak this thing and go home! Engage!"

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Monday, February 27, 2012 1:41 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!



And actually, I was only 1/2 wrong, as I really DID say ' apologist '. So basically, much ado about nothing. But enjoy your half 'win'. Probably the only one you'll ever get.

Cherish it, dearly.


" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Monday, February 27, 2012 1:48 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:

And actually, I was only 1/2 wrong, as I really DID say ' apologist '. So basically, much ado about nothing. But enjoy your half 'win'. Probably the only one you'll ever get.




You said "apologist" AFTER I called you on your bullshit, dummy. AFTER I told you to put up or shut up. And you've been backpedaling ever since, claiming you never said that "apologized".

That's not a "half win", moron; that's yet another full-on faceplant by you, one of several this week.

Cherish it, dearly.


And oh, by the way... I accept your apology for the lies you spread about me. ;)


"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Monday, February 27, 2012 1:55 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!



No apology given , as I didn't lie.

But if you need that fantasy to help you when the lights go out... by all means, cling to it.


" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Monday, February 27, 2012 1:57 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by Geezer:
Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
Fact is, Martin has a solid paper trail backing and proving the provenance of the wood it uses, sourced all the way back to the tree.



Cite?

"Keep the Shiny side up"



http://www.npr.org/blogs/therecord/2011/08/31/140090116/why-gibson-gui
tar-was-raided-by-the-justice-department


http://www.fretboardjournal.com/features/magazine/guitar-lover%E2%80%9
9s-guide-cites-conservation-treaty


"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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