REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Charter school fines parents if their kids' shoe laces are untied

POSTED BY: NIKI2
UPDATED: Wednesday, February 29, 2012 17:25
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Tuesday, February 28, 2012 7:13 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


This is totally insane:
Quote:

Goodbye, corporal punishment. Hello, capital punishment. Improved performance and new revenue streams may be on the education horizon, complete with cash registers outside detention halls.

A news-media kerfuffle erupted this week with word that the Noble Network of Charter Schools had collected nearly $400,000 in disciplinary fees from students since 2008 for infractions including not tucking in shirts, being late for class, bringing chips to school, dozing off and not properly tying shoelaces.

We already knew about fines at Noble since The Chicago Reader, WBEZ Radio and Catalyst Chicago, an education journal, had reported it for more than a year. The recent news peg was disclosure by a group of Noble critics of total fines collected via a system that starts at $5.

There are 6,500 students at 10 high schools at Noble. The schools perform much better than Chicago public high schools as a whole, but they are still quite selective, so it is hard to get an accurate comparison. And still almost half of their students fail state achievement exams, and pass rates vary widely by campus.

Mayor Rahm Emanuel, our heat-seeking Missile and a strong proponent of charters, heralds Noble for knowing the “secret sauce” of strong educational performance. But challenges posed by a high-poverty student population remain daunting, no matter the sauce.

Michael Milkie, the Noble chief executive, strongly justifies his system by saying a focus on small infractions puts a lid on potentially larger ones and results in safe environments and less distractions for students who do behave.

There are experts who buy into the notion of behavior modification through swift, modest penalties. But the Noble method elicited divergent responses from several principals who asked not to be identified.

One finds the system disgusting, while another considers it an intriguing alternative to his only real punishment tool, which is suspension.

Colin Greer, a Scottish-bred educator who is president of the New World Foundation, which pursues a politically liberal agenda, reiterated such qualms. Secretary of State Hillary Rodham Clinton is a former chairman of his board.

Greer is an ideological counterpart to William Bennett, the former secretary of education who wrote “The Book of Virtues,” a set of moral tales from a conservative perspective.

Greer said the Noble system undermined two critical aims of public education: preparing children for living in a democracy and learning to live with one another.

He likens it to teaching by Pavlovian response, referring to Ivan Pavlov, the Russian psychologist who did pioneering work on conditioned responses.

“You’re responding to punishment, like one of Pavlov’s dogs,” Greer said. “You’re not teaching how to behave in a democracy, where you behave in the best interests of a larger community.”

He said the fines were absurd, and at best they created rote, reflex responses and not the sort of flexibility and self-motivation needed in a modern economy. http://www.chicagonewscoop.org/warren-charters-discipline-fines-crude-
misguided/
insane; how can untied shoe laces and shirts not tucked in compare to the things students have been SUSPENDED over? This creates an incredible burden on those with little money to spare and is in my opinion completely over the top....not to mention that $400,000 is a nice little "kitty" for the school.
Quote:

Officials at the rapidly expanding network, heralded by Mayor Rahm Emanuel as a model for the city, say the fees offset the cost of running the detention program and help keep small problems from becoming big ones. Critics say Noble is nickel-and-diming its mostly low-income students over insignificant, made-up infractions that force out kids administrators don’t want.

“We think this just goes over the line … fining someone for having their shoelaces untied (or) a button unbuttoned goes to harassment, not discipline,’’ said Julie Woestehoff, executive director of the Chicago advocacy group Parents United for Responsible Education, which staged protests last week over the policy after Woestehoff said she was approached by an upset parent

Students at Noble schools receive demerits for various infractions — four for having a cellphone or one for untied shoelaces. Four demerits within a two-week period earn them a detention and $5 fine. Students who get 12 detentions in a year must attend a summer behavior class that costs $140.

Superintendent Michael Milkie said the policy teaches the kids — overwhelmingly poor, minority and often hoping to be the first in their families to attend college — to follow rules and produces in a structured learning environment. http://times247.com/articles/charter-school-touts-success-with-5-disci
pline-fees

It's the parents who pay the fines, not the kids...so I wonder how many kids get what kind of punishment from poor and working-class parents who have to pay the fines? Making it more difficult for kids to get an education is NOT a worthwhile endeavor, in my opinion.

Never liked Emanuel anyway....mutter, grumble...

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Tuesday, February 28, 2012 7:30 AM

STORYMARK


All the Tea-baggers I know think all schools should be run-for-profit charter schools...

"Goram it kid, let's frak this thing and go home! Engage!"

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Tuesday, February 28, 2012 8:10 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!



Better to let the idiots pass to the next grade, shoes untied, shirts untucked. Who the hell cares if they can't read their diploma, right ?


" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Tuesday, February 28, 2012 8:13 AM

STORYMARK


Says the guy who whines when he thinks others ignore the issue at hand.

I forgot, you're exempt from your own rules.

"Goram it kid, let's frak this thing and go home! Engage!"

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Tuesday, February 28, 2012 8:46 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:

Better to let the idiots pass to the next grade, shoes untied, shirts untucked. Who the hell cares if they can't read their diploma, right ?





Run it down for me, since I quite plainly can't understand your point (I'm not wearing shoes at the moment, and my t-shirt isn't tucked in) - What exactly does having your shoes tied and your shirt tucked in have to do with reading comprehension?

Are you saying someone in flip-flops or loafers can't read, or someone in a robe is incapable of reading?



Anyhow, to the issue at hand: Yes, once you make schools a for-profit enterprise, don't be surprised when a corporation swoops in to try to make them a profit center. The prisons are trying to do the same thing.

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Tuesday, February 28, 2012 8:48 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Hello,

I hope parents and students at these schools are able to find alternatives that aren't as strict. I also hope they are able to cancel their contract and get their money back if they don't like this questionable billing practice.

--Anthony


_______________________________________________

"In every war, the state enacts a tax of freedom upon the citizenry. The unspoken promise is that the tax shall be revoked at war's end. Endless war holds no such promise. Hence, Eternal War is Eternal Slavery." --Admiral Robert J. Henner


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Tuesday, February 28, 2012 10:59 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Please note that Alt.Univ.'s response apparently indicates that, yes, those who have untied shoes shouldn't be passed to the next grade, irregardless of their educational proficiency. He appears to be saying that fining parents for the untied shoes and untucked shirts is a way of guaranteeing that their children will graduate. The two are totally disconnected; the statement is intended to facilitate exactly the responses it did. It's a nonsensical statement with a purpose. Purpose achieved.

He will, and has, at all times responded to virtually anything I put up with, if he can't think of anything better, something so out in left field, condescending, unrelated or offensive that it's guaranteed to bring about a response; at best to jack the entire thread into a conversation with HIM. It doesn't matter if it makes sense or addresses the issue, only that it gets attention.

If anyone cares to pay attention (tho' I certainly don't recommend it) you will notice the pattern; if I put it up, he's right there within a couple of responses with one of these cracks. I've noticed it over time. It's rarely anything actually negating what I put up in any reasonable fashion, it's more often a personal snark, the opposite opinion (always), some kind of comparison dissing the left, or something totally unrelated. If anyone WERE to pay attention to this pattern, it should explain clearly why Alt.Univ. has nothing whatsoever to contribute to this forum and what his actual intent is. Then PERHAPS said person would come to the same realization I have and stop encouraging him.



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Tuesday, February 28, 2012 4:27 PM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht


That's pretty wonky, most of these kids seem to be from families who have little money, so how can they afford to pay? Maybe it is incentive for the kids to behave, so their parents aren't having to use the family's money for their own petty misbehaviors?

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

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Tuesday, February 28, 2012 5:34 PM

FREMDFIRMA



Nah, it's a straight money grab, is what it is, side order of jackbooted fascism.

Look at truancy fines in other states, and just how exploitive and abusive those have become - once the State or a Corporation finds a source of income, they WILL, without fail abuse the hell out of it.

Case in point: Asset Forfeiture.

So yeah, stuff like this really is a slippery slope and these folks need a kick in the chops for it, hard and soon as possible.

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

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Tuesday, February 28, 2012 7:02 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by RionaEire:
That's pretty wonky, most of these kids seem to be from families who have little money, so how can they afford to pay? Maybe it is incentive for the kids to behave, so their parents aren't having to use the family's money for their own petty misbehaviors?

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya




Actually, it's another tax on the poor, is what it is.

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Wednesday, February 29, 2012 4:04 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Noble's dress code does require that shirts be tucked in and shoes tied, among other things.

http://noblenetwork.com/LinkClick.aspx?fileticket=KpaY7KiuUi0%3D&tabid
=36


The application form for at least one Noble school requires the parents and students to accept the dress code, among other things. I'd assume the other schools have similar conditions in their agreements.

http://www.noblenetwork.org/Portals/NobleNetwork/board/Septermber%2009
/2014%20Applications/Muchin%202014.pdf




"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Wednesday, February 29, 2012 7:26 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Actually, I think it's a "money grab" "tax on the poor" disguised as "incentive", in my opinion. Anything "for profit" will find ways to disguise its money grabs. And yes, it puts a heavy burden on people who can't afford it...but that's true of so MUCH in our country...

The fact that it's in a "form" merely means "if you want to go here, you've got to accept this whether you like it or not". Given how many "public schools" have been closed, teachers laid off, classroom sizes increased, money for textbooks has been cut, it leaves parents with little choice. Just more robbing from the poor to make profit, in my opinion.




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Wednesday, February 29, 2012 11:25 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:
The fact that it's in a "form" merely means "if you want to go here, you've got to accept this whether you like it or not".



Yep. Just like any contract. The idea being that everyone lives up to the terms. Part of the Noble charter school plan, and contract with the parents, seems to be that all students wear school uniforms, and wear them in a proper manner, i.e. shirts tucked in and shoes tied. Since the alternative to a fine might be expulsion, which probably doesn't include a refund, a small fine seems one way to get the parents to live up to their responsibility to keep to the contract with the school, without their kids being kicked out.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Wednesday, February 29, 2012 2:04 PM

PIRATENEWS

John Lee, conspiracy therapist at Hollywood award-winner History Channel-mocked SNL-spoofed PirateNew.org wooHOO!!!!!!




Sheeple will put up with anything, and pay any unconstitutional tax.

Because they're sheeple, and they send their kids to jail every day.








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Wednesday, February 29, 2012 5:25 PM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht


Wow PN, you're starting to sound like CTS.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

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