Real Duels by AnthonyT

REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Real Duels

POSTED BY: ANTHONYT
UPDATED: Monday, March 5, 2012 18:13
SHORT URL:
VIEWED: 1640
PAGE 1 of 1

Thursday, March 1, 2012 9:51 AM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Hello,

Having watched a good shootout on television a couple of weeks ago (The Walking Dead- where the Living are more dangerous than the departed), I've been giving a lot of thought to the classic notion of shootouts and duels. I remember the revolutionary and gritty Unforgiven which tried to dispell several notions about dueling and shootouts. The more recent and more gritty Deadwood had its share of lethal encounters, frequently subverting classical expectations.

I've often enjoyed going out into the desert with my 'shootin iron' in full cowboy regalia, shooting aluminum cans with an impressive lack of skill and alacrity.

But while I have a vivid imagination, I often fear that in writing about shootouts and duels, I lack the experience to lend any legitimacy to my words and scenes. So, for those of you who have really been in deadly encounters (not necessarily with firearms) I ask- if it does not cause too much pain- if you might share your thoughts and feelings and experiences during such a contest of life and death. Or if you know someone who has been through such a thing, and if they shared the details of their mind, heart, and actions with you, I'd be obliged to hear it.

--Anthony

_______________________________________________

"In every war, the state enacts a tax of freedom upon the citizenry. The unspoken promise is that the tax shall be revoked at war's end. Endless war holds no such promise. Hence, Eternal War is Eternal Slavery." --Admiral Robert J. Henner

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Thursday, March 1, 2012 11:53 AM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht

Well I don't know anyone who's been in that situation, but I'd imagine it is an incredibly scary thing for both parties, even if neither will admit it. I would guess it gets easier the more times you do it and stay alive though, you'd have a little more confidence.

I think duels are rediculous if they're to the death. They're a tiny bit better if they are to the first blood, but even that is really silly in my opinion. I'm glad they've fallen out of favor and are not part of the mainstream existance currently.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Thursday, March 1, 2012 6:25 PM

OONJERAH

I was never in that situation. Happily.
I love a good movie shoot out or duel.

Dueling in the USA was falling from favor in the 19th, especially in lieu of the death of Alexander Hamilton in 1804. Yet it
persisted among gentlemen until at least the Civil War (1861-1865). Perhaps dueling lasted longer in the west, where customs
were, of necessity, different from the east. I don't know enough history to cite an example.
The most famous showdown I know of was the O.K. Corral, not a duel.

For the real deal, check out Stephen Venard (1824-1891) – "One of the most fearless lawmen during the California Goldrush," ...

Personal responsibility is the Truth.
Self determination triumphs over reaction.

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Friday, March 2, 2012 5:33 AM

FREMDFIRMA

Yeah, I hadda go to some bad mental places to work on this, elsewise I woulda gotten to it sooner.
I'll endevour to make it as coherent as possible, we'll see how that goes.

Okay, when it comes to a real fight, generally it comes about in one of three ways.

Meeting engagement - you see them, they see you, and it's "on", maybe a longstanding thing, maybe a final blowout of perceived wrongs, but generally more of a duel-format.
Now, most people are not, despite all the milgram/stanford shoveljobbery, violent, they're NOT, okay ?
Ergo there's a certain amount of working up to it even in that part, as both parties psyche themselves into the killzone - yes there ARE people who can explode into instant violence but that is tremendously rare and most have to work up to it, which can take a lot of forms, smacktalk, a few feeling-out swipes, screaming, but there's a certain setup and prep before the actual throwdown.

Ambush - one party WANTS something, the other ones stuff, money, girlfriend, revenge, what have you, and they stalk the other party and have mentally worked themselves up to it, or are in the process of doing so on approach, this isn't neccessarily a surprise ambush, for example the street-crazy muttering to himself who starts out with the "gimme five dollahs!" shill while twitching, he *IS* working himself up to attack you and if he gets position on you...
No matter how it goes this is generally a prepared combatant attacking an unprepared one, which comes with a substantial advantage in that the unprepared combatant has to work themselves into the killzone WHILE trying to defend themselves, although that can occasionally turn on the attacker when final-desperation reflexes kick in as a sort of poor mans berserkerang.

Turned Ambush - this is kind of rare, since most rational people will choose to flee a developing 'situation' if they spot it coming, provided they have a means and ability to.
Lacking those, or for internal reasons, sometimes a potential 'victim' will go for the pre-emptive strike irrespective of legal issues with that cause no matter how obvious the intent or your ability to articulate it, in a society which has all but outlawed self-defense, well...
Anyhows, this is when the would-be 'victim' blows into the mental killzone first and goes for the immediate overpower while the aggressor is still pysching up, often a choice of poor target selection by the aggressor cause they missed vital cues.

And then it's "on":

Now, a fight, a real one, is generally over either very quickly, or it... takes a while, the latter mostly when both parties have gone in close and it comes to a grapple, which in a serious fight is about the downright ugliest, nastiest thing you'll ever see - not having the bulk to play leverage games with people bigger than me I've always gone for the stormrush-overpower, anything that went longer isn't a fight, it's working over a defeated opponent, which is a different thing.

But first, the dance.
POSITION, this is a thing mostly skipped over in stories, but the entire concept is embodied well here by Marc MacYoung, who's site I highly, HIGHLY reccommend you dredge deeply for information about this sort of thing if you are interested, but anyway, the dance.
http://www.nononsenseselfdefense.com/shadow_dancing.htm
That's all about position - for example since I used to draw left handed, I would "invite" a potentive opponent to make a crossing or flanking move to my right, which would allow me to lock up his right arm and jam my pistol left handed into his right armpit, a fast and more importantly DISCREET way of ending things before they got out of hand since from that position they've no attack on you and it provides the option to de-escalate things before they get out of hand, along with an exit strategy that leaves you behind them with a weapon and quickly out of range if they have second thoughts...

There's also the 21 foot rule, also known as the Tueller drill.
http://www.theppsc.org/Staff_Views/Tueller/How.Close.htm
One of the reasons I preferred knives in my misspent youth wasn't just because they didn't draw the police attention a gunshot would, but because a fast opponent can get in close a LOT faster than people think, and frankly preventing or fouling a potentive aggressors weapon-draw is still one of my best tricks although I gotta be a lot closer to do it these days.

So, the dance, the rush, and the first pass.

Now, most people, even a lot of your potentive bad guys, have a concept of violence which is essentially unchanged from grade school, get in, throw a couple good shots and both sides claim victory as the fight is broken up by external forces, or get in, throw a couple sucker punches and then your crew of sycophants helps put the boot in - the latter here is in fact the common mentality of the gangbanger, school bully writ large and packing heat.
An interesting note to this is that when real, actually serious/life-threatening damage happens, the fight generally STOPS right there when you are working with this mentality, the downed opponent suddenly becomes aware of their own mortality with astounding clarity, and the 'victor' is often paralyzed for at least a brief moment by what they've just done - of course some criminals at that point quickly overcome with the notion of in-for-a-penny-in-for-a-pound and finish them off, whereas others might flee immediately depending on what their motivation for the attack was in the first place, it goes without saying most would-be victims who come out on top at that moment will head for the hills.

If the attack is pressed at that point the downed opponent usually does one of two things, either roll into a ball and prettymuch give up, or kick over into final desperation mode, but there's really no way of ever telling which way that will break until the situation truly occurs, some do, some don't, nobody really knows why - now a well *trained* opponent is going to react according to the manner and quality of their training, but that's not really too common.

And for most fights, the first pass is the LAST pass, especially if one party is clearly overmatched, in which case they'll seek to exit stage left as fast as they can, or if one or the other has landed an early strike which changes the balance of things, for example.

Locking-up.

This is when the first pass is actually more of collision than a feeling-out, generally when something seriously personal is involved and one or more parties don't bother with an exit strategy at all, seriously bad juju this cause it means things are gonna get ugly, seriously uncivilized kind of ugly.
Another reason it might occur is because one party has a firearm and the other doesn't, and desperately wishes to neutralize that factor before succumbing to it - a gun isn't a magic wand, if they can't line that little hole up with your body, the most you'll get is deafened or powder burns, which is cheap at the price.

The break.

This isn't near as common as hollywood makes it out to be, but sometimes there's a point where both parties have exhausted their initial rush and repetoire, or one has overcommitted, moved past engagement range, or what have you, and there's a pause in the throwdown - almost ALWAYS immediately followed by one, the other, or even BOTH parties fleeing the brawl as quickly as possible, or whichever thinks they have the advantage pressing the attack and the initiative, very very rarely is there any kind of discussion or negotiation at that point, although it has been known to happen, especially early in the matter if no one has been seriously hurt yet - not entirely sure about it, but it seems a hillbilly tradition to offer to let it go at that point, and maybe present in other cultures as well.

The finish.

Okay, someone is down and all but out, and someone isn't - what happens MOST of the time is that the 'victor' takes off before law enforcement arrives, save in the case of an obvious intended victim winning out, and perhaps even then due to distrust of the conduct of said enforcement.
If that factor isn't present, say the fight has occured somewhere relatively discreet, other potential ugliness opens up, the downed party may be robbed, worked over, or worse, but I won't go into that.

Mutual smash.

This is what happens when BOTH parties have taken enough damage to (eventually) incapacitate them and cannot continue, which isn't common but does happen more often than people think cause once the adrenalin rush wears off and the damage bill comes due, both parties to the fight may wind up out of commission temporarily if not permanently - woe betide the one who recovers last.

Now, damage - DURING a brawl felt-damage is very different from actual damage, most pain and soft tissue damage is completely lost in the flood of panic, rage, and fight-flight messages, filed at a low priority and all but unnoticed at the time.
What *IS* felt, immediately, is generally STRUCTURAL damage, tendons, ligaments, bones, things that interfere with function and depending on the level of emotional and psychological "involvement", even some of that is not necessarily an immediate show-stopper.
You feel the IMPACT, yes, but the actual DAMAGE doesn't come due till later.

Knife hits are a subset of this, can't say much to stab wounds having not actually experienced one, but slashes don't even register, in fact your first inkling you've even been cut is generally a cold sensation and the itch-trickle of bleeding, followed by a stinging-burning sensation which gradually becomes worse - as a rule you will NOT stop an opponent with slash damage as most fights are over too quick for blood loss to be a factor.
What kills people, knife-wise, is the stab, puncturing vital organs or large blood vessels - this is why an amateur with a screwdriver is way more likely to actually kill you than an amateur with a machete.

Bullets - can't say too much to these, but a little, got pelted by bullet FRAGMENTS from a near miss, and that hurts like a bitch, not to mention puncture wounds swell up like a mother and make that whole area stiff, I mean to point of incapacity, and getting hit through a level II/III-A vest even with a small calibre is a lot like being smacked in the chest by a four pound maul, and I mean a full arm swing, you WILL go down, you WILL lose consciousness for at least a short period of time due to the shockwave passing through your chest cavity and disrupting the hell out of your nervous system, you WILL suffer substantial damage, and you'll probably hurl up your socks as well as have to cope with what felt damn near like a mild concussion.

Annnd, that's about all I can say to it - I can't find an excerpt, but one good short story that embodies the concept of the conventional head to head shooting is in the Andrew Vachss book Everybody Pays under the title Slow Motion.

Not sure if any of that is useful, and if you want more of the technical details, especially about how a fight STARTS, I suggest digging into Marc MacYoungs site, starting here.
http://www.nononsenseselfdefense.com/five_stages.html

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Friday, March 2, 2012 6:01 AM

CAVETROLL

"No shit, there I was" is past tense of "Oh shit, there they are."

I've heard a load of birdshot pass by. I was way too young, dumb and full of... vinegar, to do the smart thing and run. Fortunately I got to the guy before he could reload his single shot break open shotgun. More than harsh words were exchanged. I hit him a few times with the barrel of his gun and threw it in a handy river before letting my fists do the rest of the talking. Not real proud of that moment, but I own it, so there's no sense denying it.

I own a modest collection of guns now. Glad I didn't have one on me then. Hot blood would have led to spilled blood.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Friday, March 2, 2012 6:13 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Hello,

Thank you, gentlemen. I appreciate it.

--Anthony

_______________________________________________

"In every war, the state enacts a tax of freedom upon the citizenry. The unspoken promise is that the tax shall be revoked at war's end. Endless war holds no such promise. Hence, Eternal War is Eternal Slavery." --Admiral Robert J. Henner

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Friday, March 2, 2012 11:24 AM

FREMDFIRMA

Took me a while to find this piece - in which Marc goes on about the pyschology of such things, some of which I have mentioned before, the beast within, and how violence destroys the person you were - what he calls frankenstein effect.
http://www.nononsenseselfdefense.com/knifefighter.html

When you engage in this kind of violence, win or lose, a part of you DIES.
That's not metaphor, and while you can rebuild from the ashes, after enough of it you slowly cease to care - it's not a form of sanity, or even humanity, but the beast within taking over, and the worst of it is that it's all the beast KNOWS - holding a job, maintaining a relationship, being part of society, the beast couldn't care less, and left unchecked will destroy you as surely as if you hadn't set it loose when your life depended on it.

Violence harms those who commit it regardless of intent, and that's a fact.

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Friday, March 2, 2012 2:13 PM

NEWOLDBROWNCOAT

Never been there myself, but I recalll an incident from Joseph Wambaugh's book Lines and Shadows. A bunch of undercover cops were patrolling the boonies along the Mexican border. They got in a close-up shoot-out with a bunch of Mexican gangbangers. The cops collectively fired 19 shots, and the 'bangers a bunch. Total damage- 1 cop wounded in the fingers, most likely by another cop. Point being, in the real deal, marksmanship, accuracy, training, co-ordination, even arm stability and strength all go out the window. That's part of the reason why, when cops are involved in a shoot-out, everybody empties his gun. ( "Cops fire 90 rounds at suspect", go the headlines.)It takes that many shots to do any good, sometimes. Other times just one shot is enough for a kill. Luck? Maybe.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Friday, March 2, 2012 2:25 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Hello,

As to that point, NewOld...

When I was dispatching for the police, an incident occurred.

A police officer pulled over a vehicle.

As he was walking up to the vehicle, the driver stuck a gun out the window and opened fire.

The officer returned fire. He emptied his service weapon. He emptied both of his spare magazines.

Assuming he was carrying the standard 9 millimeter, he probably spent about 45 rounds of ammunition.

The suspect vehicle drove away, leaving the officer to scream for backup and ask for additional ammunition.

No one was shot. To my knowledge, not even a vehicle was hit, though I never inspected the vehicles myself, and have only second-hand information on that score. I have no idea where all those bullets ended up.

--Anthony

_______________________________________________

"In every war, the state enacts a tax of freedom upon the citizenry. The unspoken promise is that the tax shall be revoked at war's end. Endless war holds no such promise. Hence, Eternal War is Eternal Slavery." --Admiral Robert J. Henner

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Friday, March 2, 2012 8:16 PM

FREMDFIRMA

Forgive me this bit of dark humor, but this is shockingly accurate, as is most of The Wire.

Snoop has it right, generally in Bodymore, Murdaland the bad guys prefer to get in close and actually shoot rather than spray and pray - and given police marksmanship qual usually consists of hitting a man sized target 8 out of 10 at ten yards, once a year, well....

More to dig up on this shortly.

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Friday, March 2, 2012 8:23 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Quote:
police marksmanship qual usually consists of hitting a man sized target 8 out of 10 at ten yards, once a year

Hello,

One of the reasons I considered a job in law enforcement was to gain access to that range. All the shooting I could enjoy, all the ammo paid for. A veritable paradise to my mind.

Shamefully, there were some officers who had serious difficulty qualifying with their sidearms.

I will never understand why people with no interest in marksmanship would seek out professions where they must employ a firearm.

--Anthony

_______________________________________________

Note to self: Mr. Raptor believes that women who want to control their reproductive processes are sluts.

Reference thread: http://fireflyfans.net/mthread.asp?b=18&t=51196

Never forget what this man is. You keep forgiving him his trespasses and speak to him as though he is a reasonable human being. You keep forgetting the things he's advocated. If you respond to this man again, you are being foolish.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Friday, March 2, 2012 8:29 PM

FREMDFIRMA

Now, you wanna talk about real firearms use, as opposed to firing-range warriors who know all the right buzzwords, there's really only four names that matter.

Massad Ayoob
Rex Applegate
Jelly Bryce
Bill Jordan

http://www.bobtuley.com/pointshooting.htm

My own style was in fact developed off Bill Jordans 3/4 hip hold, although with my depth perception now shot to hell and my left hand unable to wield a firearm anymore the notion of making a skill shot these days is dubious at best...
Still, I highly, HIGHLY reccommend Bill Jordans No Second Place Winner as a fundamental precis for shooter or author.
http://www.amazon.com/Second-Place-Winner-William-Jordan/dp/0936279095

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Friday, March 2, 2012 8:32 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Hello,

I used to subscribe to a publication with regular prints of articles from the first two people on your list. I will investigate the others. There can never be too much good advice or information.

--Anthony

_______________________________________________

Note to self: Mr. Raptor believes that women who want to control their reproductive processes are sluts.

Reference thread: http://fireflyfans.net/mthread.asp?b=18&t=51196

Never forget what this man is. You keep forgiving him his trespasses and speak to him as though he is a reasonable human being. You keep forgetting the things he's advocated. If you respond to this man again, you are being foolish.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Friday, March 2, 2012 8:47 PM

FREMDFIRMA

Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:
I will never understand why people with no interest in marksmanship would seek out professions where they must employ a firearm.

Well, cause there's a LOT more to being a police than using a gun ?
I mean in my work while I *could* carry, there's really no need to, even a 38Spl with Glazier safety rounds would put the residents at needless risk since there's no clear firing lanes here, and frankly if things ever get to a point where me or one of my guards finds themselves NEEDING a weapon it'd be almost inevitably cause they screwed up.

Which is, I think true for police who do the job correctly, as opposed to those who think a taser is a people remote, and in their arrogance needlessly escalate situations they COULD have defused but for the sake of their ego.

This is a HUMONGOUS problem with cops, gone unaddressed for far too long - the monkey takes the wheel, and instead of even TRYING to de-escalate or negotiate they just keep amping up the force continuum till someone gets shot.
http://nononsenseselfdefense.com/get_attacked.htm
http://nononsenseselfdefense.com/deescalation.htm
http://www.conflictcommunications.com/deescalation.htm

Now, in light of being threatened several times by folks who really meant it (associate of some burglars I rounded up and had pitched in the slammer, violent addict I had carted off in a squad car for domestic issues, recent jackass stalkin his neighbor...) and pressure from the property manager, I do carry a blitzwhip, but as a rule there's enough mutual respect that no one here, not even the local yahoos, wants to tussle, besides which age and lessened ability aside, I do still have the ability to position-dance - that addict was blatantly trying to move into first-strike position the entire time (while waving his off hand in my face trying to distract me from the fist he was cocking for the blindside) the local authorities were en-route and I just subtly moved out of it every time in such a fashion that not only would foil his attack, but would also allow me to trip him up and more or less sit on him (he was in my size range, i.e. puny) till the bullies in blue showed up.

Anyhow, if you watch the behavior of most law enforcement personnel, they almost always get ego involved and stoke the flames of a situation, escalating it themselves till violence occurs, and THEN blame the "perp" despite their own conduct being either a major contribution, or even the sole cause of things having gone rodeo in the first place.

A GOOD cop, doing the job RIGHT, is almost NEVER going to NEED that damn weapon, but when you have a hammer, everything starts lookin like a nail, especially when there's no accountability or oversight worth a mention.

This is a psychology I know all too much about and rather wish I didn't.

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Friday, March 2, 2012 9:20 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Hello,

I don't disagree with your evaluation of the police, but it really doesn't help me to understand why someone would enter a profession where they must use a firearm if they have no interest in marksmanship.

A fact that makes even less sense given our mutual understanding of many police personnel, motives, and tactics.

If this were a country where police did not routinely carry firearms, (and in fact are often required to do so) it might make more sense to me.

--Anthony

_______________________________________________

Note to self: Mr. Raptor believes that women who want to control their reproductive processes are sluts.

Reference thread: http://fireflyfans.net/mthread.asp?b=18&t=51196

Never forget what this man is. You keep forgiving him his trespasses and speak to him as though he is a reasonable human being. You keep forgetting the things he's advocated. If you respond to this man again, you are being foolish.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Sunday, March 4, 2012 8:25 PM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht

I think of a duel as different than an average fight because in a duel you plan ahead, lets meet here at this time, okay lets do it. Of course one can do this without a gun or a sword, so in that sense the bully and the bullied planning to fight at 3 in the school yard is technically a duel of sorts. The reason that duelling is illegal now is because murder is murder, even if you picked a time and date to go at it. The reason first blood duels aren't in fashion anymore is probably because no one is good at swordplay anymore and ... well I guess a duel could be hand to hand and people are still good at that, but one is likely to sue the other afterwords so no one wants to get involved in that luh suh.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Sunday, March 4, 2012 10:09 PM

FREMDFIRMA

Quote:
Originally posted by RionaEire:
so in that sense the bully and the bullied planning to fight at 3 in the school yard is technically a duel of sorts.

More of a controlled-ambush situation, that.

The school demands they be there, the school demands they be unarmed - and then when the bully engages the convenient victim handed over on a plate all of the sudden it's not their concern cause it's "off the property" (usually by mere inches) or "after hours" (by minutes) - thus dodging their responsibility for setting the victim up in the first place, which is a HUGE sore point with me to the degree that I wrote an editorial about it called DEATH AT 3PM.

I shall repost it here after next round.

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Sunday, March 4, 2012 10:54 PM

FREMDFIRMA

Quote:
Death At 3PM

by XXXXXXXX

School lets out at 3pm.
http://www.ncjrs.org/html/ojjdp/9911_1/vio1.html
http://www.ncjrs.org/html/ojjdp/9911_1/vio2.html

These charts show without one ounce of doubt, that school is a contributory factor in crime...and here's why, tho no one will admit it.

A student often harrassed by his peers more often than likely...WILL BE ARMED, once he returns home and gets out and about.

But on his way home from school, he will not be, nor will he have neighbor/parental support to back him up...by demanding that our children come to school unarmed (which is rational, and understandable) - we then take some responsibility for protecting them from harm.

The same principle applies at, say...Social Security...the sign on the door clearly indicates you must leave your weapons behind to enter the building, and beside that door is an ARMED guard...the presence of whom I find downright comforting when I have left my weapons in the car.

If I must be defenseless by the rules of the organization I am entering, it is their responsibility, morally...to defend me, period.

The SAME applies to schools...the child appearing at the bus stop to confront six larger kids who are going to kick the shit out of him does so unarmed because it is the schools policy that he not board the bus with a weapon...but where is the school when his safety is now endangered because he is unarmed ?

And on the way home, many times it is a "race" to get "home safe" and more than likely armed....before your aggressors get to you - where is the school then, by who's demands you are unarmed ?

If the school is going to demand compliance with certain rules that cause increased risks to their students (and usually FROM other students) - then the school is going to have to take responsibility for what happens to them....even if it's off school grounds, even if it's after school.

Now, consider well the mindset of the tormented child - the school demands he be certain places at certain times, and unarmed...and his tormenters know where he will be, and that he will be defenseless....and as well most of them know the teachers are going home and the school will not take responsibility for anything that happens after school or off the property.

In the mind of the victim, the school has "set him up" to be abused, and therefore a knowing and willing participant, especially if he's brought it up with them and been told there is nothing they can do after-hours or off the property.

And the sick thing is...the child is correct, the school places him in such situations, and then refuses to take their share of responsibility for what then happens to him.

Yet, now...if it was an adult, a stranger...they might act, but as long as it's students from the same school, they do nothing, how convenient.

What needs be done is to make the school system legally and financially responsible to some degree in cases where harm comes of it, for it is by their mandate the student is in this place, at this time, and not armed - and therefore easier to victimize.

Updated Graph HERE.
http://www.ojjdp.gov/ojstatbb/offenders/qa03301.asp?qaDate=2008
(Selecting GRAPH VERSION will show the very obvious spike visually)

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Monday, March 5, 2012 4:03 AM

HERO

We had a Police shooting a few years ago. Fella shot his wife and mother, first officers on the scene where our Chief and a Captain...neither patrol officers for a very long time, just happened to be right nearby when the call came.

Guy came out shooting, missed both officers. They drew and returned fire...18 shots short range...only two hits and the guy survived and is in prison. Both officers are good shots, but what they said is that shooting from a prepared stance is one thing...drawing and shooting is something different. Our training was adjusted to include more scenario training and more realistic shooting positions such as from a draw, while moving, while crouched, etc.

I watched scenario training...its amazing how much faster things go in real life then on TV.

I would suggest you read the historical account of the shootout at the OK Corral involving Wyatt Earp, then watch the shootout scene from the movie Tombstone which is taken from the historical accout. Its a great example of how wild and fast and crazy a real shootout is. BTW, Earp was amazing. All those shootouts and he had this reputation of never taking cover and just walking through gunfire without a scratch.

I note for the record that if your going to go to all the trouble of having a shootout, don't use a small gun. We had a guy last year shoot his girlfriend three times point blank in the chest...she didn't die. She was released from the hospital the next morning. Guy fled and later kiled himself in a Walmart parking lot...sat there in his care about a week in August heat before folks noticed the smell...no kidding. You think that's bad...about ten years ago we had a fella scalp his wife's lover in a resturant full of people in front of two off duty cops...

H

"Hero. I have come to respect you." "I am forced to agree with Hero here."- Chrisisall, 2009.
"I agree with Hero." Niki2, 2011.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Monday, March 5, 2012 5:20 AM

KPO

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.

My opponent wussed out of our duel...

It's not personal. It's just war.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Monday, March 5, 2012 5:26 AM

BYTEMITE

Really any kind of fight can result in someone inadvertently dying, so they're all kinda dumb. But on the other hand, there's nothing like a brawl to get the blood warmed up a bit.

Me, I'm always smaller than most of the people I'm squared up against. I'm not that fast and I don't usually make the first move unless they're distracted and I can get in a haymaker, but I have pretty good reflexes. Mostly I rely on an unusual amount of pain tolerance. When I get into a fight I can block pain out above and beyond most people. When you don't even flinch from a dirty shot that would double most people over, your opponent tends to run away really fast. But my size also gives me a center of balance advantage, so with a combination of trips and throws and leverage it's not too hard to get someone on the ground with me standing over them, and by that time it's usually over.

I don't do much damage, but I generally don't have to.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Monday, March 5, 2012 7:39 AM

FREMDFIRMA

Zero

Quote:
I note for the record that if your going to go to all the trouble of having a shootout, don't use a small gun.

That's not necessarily true - back in the day I was buddies with the Baltimore City Coroner, and from the evidence available it became pretty clear than in many cases the .22LR is in fact MORE lethal than bigger rounds, and why ?
Cause it retains just enough kinetic energy to not stop when it hits bone, yet not enough to blow right through, resulting in the "pinball effect" as it ricochets around in the body cavity, a couple of those and some bad luck will turn your innards into sausage in a hurry, believe it.

Piz

Quote:
My opponent wussed out of our duel...

That's why they used to bring seconds, you know.

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Monday, March 5, 2012 6:13 PM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht

KPO, I was disappointed about that too. :(

Really interesting and valid points Frem.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

YOUR OPTIONS

SHARE THREAD

NEW POSTS TODAY

USER	POST DATE

USER

POST DATE