Godless and proud: Atheists rally in D.C. by Geezer

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

The most secular? Oh puhleez.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Tuesday, March 27, 2012 5:36 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
The most secular? Oh puhleez.

Hello,

I very much doubt it. But we're certainly not the most religious, either. I do think you made some wild leap there, Signy.

--Anthony

_______________________________________________

Note to self: Mr. Raptor believes that women who want to control their reproductive processes are sluts.

Reference thread: http://fireflyfans.net/mthread.asp?b=18&t=51196

Never forget what this man is. You keep forgiving him his trespasses and speak to him as though he is a reasonable human being. You keep forgetting the things he's advocated. If you respond to this man again, you are being foolish.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Tuesday, March 27, 2012 5:38 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Quote:
Originally posted by Wishimay:
Quote:
Originally posted by Wulfenstar:

Doing right, is good for its own reasons. But knowing that there is someone looking out... hell that gives a person hope.

"Hope is a good thing, maybe the best of things, and no good thing ever dies"

Hope is just a figment of your imagination mixed with unrealistic emotional expectations. It's not a real thing, and it is just a distraction so that you won't have to deal with what IS.

Wishing and hoping that aliens would abduct me and fix my DNA, or that I could see a little of what goes on in the universe- doesn't mean it's gonna happen...I'M NEVER GOING TO GET MY WISH. Wishing and hoping doesn't actually make anything better, it just makes it worse......Gawd, have I learned THAT lesson...

What exactly ARE you hoping for anyway?? That your life will suddenly make sense at the moment of your death or that you will find the perfect euphoria you lack in life?? I think it's gonna suck more for you if it's not what you think or if there IS nothing, than it is for me as I have no expectations....just pure unadulterated reality.

Hello,

When I buy a movie ticket, I hope the movie doesn't suck. When I order a meal at a restaurant, I hope it tastes good. When I'm trapped in a bad situation, I hope I can figure out a way out of it.

I think hope has its uses for emotional beings. Maybe Vulcans don't need hope, but I think humans do.

--Anthony

_______________________________________________

Note to self: Mr. Raptor believes that women who want to control their reproductive processes are sluts.

Reference thread: http://fireflyfans.net/mthread.asp?b=18&t=51196

Never forget what this man is. You keep forgiving him his trespasses and speak to him as though he is a reasonable human being. You keep forgetting the things he's advocated. If you respond to this man again, you are being foolish.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Tuesday, March 27, 2012 5:50 PM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Tony, of the developed nations, we have THE highest percent who believe in some sort of god, who think the earth was created recently, who go to church, who think guardian angels watch their every step. Higher even than Ireland! I'll see if I can find those stats for you!

We also have a very high percent of peeps who think aliens have abducted humans, the highest percent with "brand loyalty" (people who "buy" advertising), and the highest percent who feel that corporations are their friends. People walking around confused in so many fundamental ways it's a wonder they manage to survive.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Tuesday, March 27, 2012 6:06 PM

OONJERAH

Quote 6ixStringJack: "Who the hell are any of we to say that there isn't a God, for one?
Secondly, I see absolutely no benefits of drawing that line in the sand on any personal
level."

. . .Look closer. There's a certain pride in Not Needing any God or salvation. Courage, too.
Requires an inflated notion of one's own intelligence. Homo sapien?

Quote Signym: "Religion: opiate of the masses."

. . .Then is "intellectual superiority" the opiate of the Atheist?

. . .As a kid, I saw a lotta folks who seemed comforted, reassured by their faith.
But not so many nowadays. It's gone all militant & self-righteous now with a lotta "Christians"
I meet. They are angry, sinful and accusing. Often quote from the Old Testament horrible things
"we oughta do" to them other sinners -- but never themselves. But the thing they say most often
is, "You gotta believe in Christ or go to Hell." It's not like they love Jesus or even their religion ...
they just fear damnation. The opiate isn't working so good for them.

ETA: Aliens have abducted humans, BTW. Dan Akroyd told me.

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, March 28, 2012 3:22 AM

Quote:
Then is "intellectual superiority" the opiate of the Atheist?

That would require knowledge to be enjoyable, and for atheists to have a monopoly on it. It generally isn't, and they don't.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, March 28, 2012 3:47 AM

PIZMOBEACH

... fully loaded, safety off...

Quote:
Originally posted by Wulfenstar:

I choose to believe there is a purpose.

As someone put it.... (watch the damn vid, it can't hurt)

Watched the vid, good stuff, Leary is funny as hell.
I wouldn't want to change anyone's mind about their beliefs, not really, but it seems a little sad to me that the message is, "this is only worth doing if there's a God." It's not worth it if there isn't? Isn't saving lives the point and the reward all in one?

I might be a subscriber of a religion if there was a more modern version - I'm not sure how that would work exactly, but the golden rule would be in there somewhere.

I wonder how many Christians know who wrote their Bible? Who the authors' descendants are?

Scifi movie music + Firefly dialogue clips, 24 hours a day - http://www.scifiradio.com

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, March 28, 2012 3:47 AM

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
Quote:
Then is "intellectual superiority" the opiate of the Atheist?

That would require knowledge to be enjoyable, and for atheists to have a monopoly on it. It generally isn't

.

Knowledge isn't enjoyable ? Oh, sure, we can acknowledge that, yes, sometimes the truth does hurt, but that's because it clashes with our view of the world and how we understood it.Once we come to grips with reality, and the initial shock of understanding wears off, we adjust, no ?

Maybe I'm misreading your comment. I find knowledge to be itself liberating and often times intoxicating.

" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall

"The world is a dangerous place. Not because of the people who are evil; but because of the people who don't do anything about it." - Albert Einstein

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, March 28, 2012 3:57 AM

That assumes there is a single truth to become aware of or be surprised by.

I'm never surprised, but always disappointed. Each new truth is worse than the previous one. There will come a time that even what I perceive about human nature and altruism will be overturned.

I have no problem with people pinning their hopes on afterlife and gods, or on machines and ingenuity, or perhaps on the marvels of the universe or some combination thereof. But truth? There is no joy to be found there.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, March 28, 2012 4:15 AM

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
That assumes there is a single truth to become aware of or be surprised by.

I'm never surprised, but always disappointed. Each new truth is worse than the previous one. There will come a time that even what I perceive about human nature and altruism will be overturned.

I wanna party with you !

" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall

"The world is a dangerous place. Not because of the people who are evil; but because of the people who don't do anything about it." - Albert Einstein

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, March 28, 2012 4:19 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Religion: opiate of the masses.

Did you ever wonder why the USA, which is the most religious developed nation in the world, also has the highest crime rate and one of the worst standards of living (for a developed nation, that is)?

Hmmm... no connection there!

Since the 1950's both CO2 in the atmosphere and obesity have increased in the U.S. Obviously, atmospheric CO2 causes obesity.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, March 28, 2012 4:26 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

GEEZER: So you apparently went to nationmaster (or wherever you go), ran the stats, and realized that what I said was true. You don't deny the statistics. That's a step in the right direction, anyway.

So, how's this for a hypothesis: If we didn't have such a stunted society, maybe we wouldn't have such emotionally destitute people who need an invisible friend? If we didn't have such a CHEAP source of comfort for the masses, maybe TBTB would need to expend a little more $$$ on the rest of society? Just a thought. (Realizing, of course, that certain thoughts are beyond your range.)

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, March 28, 2012 5:03 AM

Quote:
I wanna party with you !

I have never claimed to not be extremely depressing to know.

I'm like an angrier Eeyore.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, March 28, 2012 5:12 AM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

"Religion: opiate of the masses.

Did you ever wonder why the USA, which is the most religious developed nation in the world, also has the highest crime rate and one of the worst standards of living (for a developed nation, that is)?

Hmmm... no connection there!"

I have a pet rock. I have never been attacked by a tiger..

My rock has magical anti-tiger properties!

"Hope is a good thing, maybe the best of things, and no good thing ever dies"

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, March 28, 2012 5:19 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Did anyone notice that Wulf's oh-so-enlightened story about Nan-in is actually a scene out of "2012"? Made me smile...did you look it up to give it veracity or something, Wulf? I don't think you know much about buddhism, and your remark about my buddhism being Californicated is downright offensive to me. Which is nothing new, I'm just pointing it out for those who haven't gotten to know you yet.

As to the rest of this thread, it's not worth getting into for me. I've said my piece, and this is a subject, like politics, which will never be "solved". I have a feeling most of us here aren't really religious and accept on some level that there might be a god or there might not be a god. Just the impression I get. To me, that shows a group of intelligent people who aren't willing to just swallow what they've been told without thinking about it and being aware of the flaws.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, March 28, 2012 5:20 AM

BLUEHANDEDMENACE

Quote:
Originally posted by pizmobeach:

I wonder how many Christians know who wrote their Bible? Who the authors' descendants are?

Amazingly, they actually believe God wrote it. Im not making this up, I have first hand experience w this recently, from a woman who ended a 6 month relationship w me because "I didnt believe in God, and wasn't a good Christian"

She also believed that the Bible she reads is EXACTLY the same as the original ones written. I couldnt make this up, Im actually still reeling a bit from it, because I liked her, and I had serious difficulty reconciling that someone who is so intelligent in all other aspects of her life could be so willfully blind and ignorant on this one subject.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, March 28, 2012 5:30 AM

PIZMOBEACH

... fully loaded, safety off...

This place is crawling with atheists! I'm thinking 7 to 1...

There is the possibility hinted at above, the careful what you wish for kind: if those people who really need and are comforted by religion and say they wouldn't have a steady guide without it... if it was proven there was no God then wouldn't we be in even worse trouble? This is why I won't argue too loudly against it in any of its forms. Maybe the masses need that opiate?

Scifi movie music + Firefly dialogue clips, 24 hours a day - http://www.scifiradio.com

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, March 28, 2012 8:17 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
GEEZER: So you apparently went to nationmaster (or wherever you go), ran the stats, and realized that what I said was true. You don't deny the statistics.

Because your statistics don't mean anything.

Correspondence does not imply causation.

The U.S. has the highest number of overseas Chinese of any developed nation. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overseas_Chinese

Probably also the highest percentage of Africans or Hispanics in a non-African or Hispanic developed country. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_the_United_States

Larger percentage of Jews than any place except Israel.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_population

In fact, I'd guess generally the largest percentages of most racial or ethnic groups, outside their countries of origin, in any developed country.

So which of these is the cause of the murder rate?

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, March 28, 2012 8:28 AM

FREMDFIRMA

Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
I'm never surprised, but always disappointed. Each new truth is worse than the previous one. There will come a time that even what I perceive about human nature and altruism will be overturned.

Oh I doubt that - I might not be the best example of such a thing, but there it is.
I figure hope is what you'd like to happen - and a boot in the right asses is generally an effective methodology....
Hope as INTENT, rather than as denial you see ?

Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
I have never claimed to not be extremely depressing to know.

I'm like an angrier Eeyore.

*gigglefits*

Seriously though, you'd make a good Shadow Vajrayana, and could prolly explain the mechanics of it all in quantum science while mocking the rest of us as primitives...

SCIENCE!

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, March 28, 2012 8:44 AM

WISHIMAY

Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
Quote:

Hope is just a figment of your imagination mixed with unrealistic emotional expectations. It's not a real thing, and it is just a distraction so that you won't have to deal with what IS.

:o

You... Might be my new friend.

But, this is very different from what I'm familiar with from you. Are... things okay?

Ah, that really did make me LOL.
I think I'd take ten of your fights, over one of my in-laws... And yeah, I'm fine... I've always been a little bit matter-of-fact with death. I think it gets romantisized too much. It is what it is...

Yanno, I do have an analytical side too. I choose to feel positive emotions most of the time because living is hard enough( and NO that wasn't always a natural response), but I have enough sense to realize hope is just a trap or a temporary analgesic to things beyond our control...

Eeyore... is totally appropriate, btw...

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, March 28, 2012 12:40 PM

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
Quote:
I wanna party with you !

I have never claimed to not be extremely depressing to know.

I'm like an angrier Eeyore.

Ever read Carl Sagan's Demon Haunted World ? Just curious.

" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall

"The world is a dangerous place. Not because of the people who are evil; but because of the people who don't do anything about it." - Albert Einstein

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, March 28, 2012 1:04 PM

OONJERAH

Quote Signym: "If we didn't have such a CHEAP source of comfort for the masses, maybe
TBTB would need to expend a little more $$$ on the rest of society? Just a thought.

Religion not so cheap. My relative tithes 10% eventho they cannot afford it.
She also gives away her mind, like she's too afraid to trust it. She's glad the
church tells her what to think.

Quote BlueHandedMenace: "Amazingly, they actually believe God wrote it. I'm not
making this up, I have first hand experience w this recently, from a woman who
ended a 6 month relationship w me because "I didnt believe in God, and wasn't
a good Christian"

She also believed that the Bible she reads is EXACTLY the same as the original
ones written. I couldn't make this up, Im actually still reeling a bit from it,
because I liked her, and I had serious difficulty reconciling that someone who
is so intelligent in all other aspects of her life could be so willfully blind
and ignorant on this one subject."

Uncertainty is intolerable to many. They have to be Right and yet absolved
of responsibility for their beliefs. Christians tell me that the Bible they are
reading is the accurate word of God, it's inspired by God & can contain no errors.

Quote PizmoBeach: "Maybe the masses need that opiate?"

Not so sure it's an opiate lately. They're gettin' scared and mad, and may
need to burn some sinners at the stake again.

Personally, I prefer opiates and crutches I can count on: movies, computer
games, pets, sugar, places to babble. ... As for hope, yes: I hope it will finally
be Spring tomorrow!!!

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, March 28, 2012 1:43 PM

Quote:
Ever read Carl Sagan's Demon Haunted World ? Just curious.

No. I tend to avoid intellectual input from famous philosophers and famous philosopher scientists. They think they're experts on unknowable topics. It's rather annoying.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, March 28, 2012 1:49 PM

Quote:
And yeah, I'm fine... I've always been a little bit matter-of-fact with death. I think it gets romantisized too much. It is what it is...

Oh. This makes me wonder what has you thinking about death, if there's anything going on besides the thread topic, but I won't pry.

I haven't seen this side of you. I'm glad to know that this isn't unusual, in any case.

(Also I approve of this side, and I should cut your other side more slack)

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, March 28, 2012 2:01 PM

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
Quote:
Ever read Carl Sagan's Demon Haunted World ? Just curious.

No. I tend to avoid intellectual input from famous philosophers and famous philosopher scientists. They think they're experts on unknowable topics. It's rather annoying.

What you find annoying is that they do know stuff, and you don't.

" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall

"The world is a dangerous place. Not because of the people who are evil; but because of the people who don't do anything about it." - Albert Einstein

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, March 28, 2012 2:20 PM

FREMDFIRMA

Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
No. I tend to avoid intellectual input from famous philosophers and famous philosopher scientists. They think they're experts on unknowable topics. It's rather annoying.

In their heart, everybody thinks that, at least some of the time - hell, that's why PEOPLE are annoying, a lot of the time.

ETA: See Post Above This One - Self Demonstrating Article.

-Frem

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, March 28, 2012 4:23 PM

Quote:
What you find annoying is that they do know stuff, and you don't.

Pretty sure no one knows anything. I don't see why I should indulge some intellectual jerk putting on airs like they have all the answers, or give their written brain hairballs any particular consideration over puzzling out my own mind.

I'm also not sure how I would be aware enough to know whether or not they know anything, since I don't really give a damn what any of them have to say, let alone know what they have said.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, March 28, 2012 4:25 PM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

GEEZER, you must think everyone is as stupid as you are. Everybody knows (well, everyone in science knows) that correlation doesn't mean causation. Do I really have to say that? Well, I guess I do. So, here goes Science 101....

There are all kinds of reasons how A and B can be correlated:

A causes B
B causes A
A and B are caused by C
Coincidence

But just because A and B aren't necessarily causally related doesn't mean that you can dismiss ALL correlations as being meaningless. If two masses inevitably tug on each other, and it happens over and over, are you ready to say that it is NOT causally related? Apparently, you are.

What separates mere coincidence from causation is the proposal of a process by which A and B (and sometimes C) are related. I have done that. You haven't shown how that is NOT true, and in fact have resorted (again) to shabby rhetoric which only reveals your intellectual dishonesty (again).

But when you feel like having an honest discussion that doesn't insult everyone's intelligence here, please let me know.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, March 28, 2012 5:20 PM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht

Interesting conversation. I find unsavory attitudes on both sides of this debate here, lack of finesse and bitterness are notable, which belongs to which side I will leave unsaid because there's a little on both.

On time: I think of time as a string, it begins and ends. God is like the room the string is in, the string is so light it floats in the air and God is before it, after it, above it, below it, around it.

I don't think Signe's assertions about the reason America has problems is because people, gasp, believe in things are founded.

Hi Six, just keep investigating and inquiring.

I assume you're my pal until you let me know otherwise. "A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, March 28, 2012 5:53 PM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Quote:
Personally, I prefer opiates and crutches I can count on: movies, computer
games, pets, sugar, places to babble. ...

Hear, hear, Oonj!

Byte,

Quote:
This makes me wonder what has you thinking about death

I don't think you need worry about Wish, she was just expressing her opinion in the thread. We've discussed religion and stuff before, and this is nothing new with regard to her opinions, far as I can recall.

And yes, Riona, as I said before, politics and religion are the two subjects which are infamous for bringing out the worst in people.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, March 28, 2012 5:57 PM

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)

Snarfley double-post! DIE! DIE!

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, March 28, 2012 6:02 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
"That's atheism dude - if you are a christian you have rules and commandments to tell you how to behave, you have less free-will. Atheists behave well not because there's a treat waiting for them but because they take personal responsibility and don't ask for forgiveness from Super Dad if they screw up.
I don't think you or 6 get it."

Cept, I know you don't get a treat for doing right. Mostly, you get a kick in the teeth, and someone pissing in your face.

Its not the great lottery of the universe that makes people do the right thing. If I do X, I can finally rest after... is bullshit.

Doing right, is good for its own reasons. But knowing that there is someone looking out... hell that gives a person hope.

Its not wrong to believe that we are here for a reason, beyond genetics.

You want to do good for goodness sake, Im all for that. Room enough in this world for everybody. Want to do good cus you think if you don't then you end up in HBOs OZ... ok. Same difference.

You want not to DO good, but to BE SEEN DOING GOOD, which you view as far more important. You have no real interest in the "doing good" part, but rather in the being KNOWN to be doing good part. In other words, you're living your entire life in hopes of impressing someone else. What's worse, you're hoping to impress someone invisible whom you've already admitted doesn't care what you do.

If I do good, it's because *I* want to do it. It's because *I* will sleep better tonight, knowing I helped someone who needed help, even if they couldn't or wouldn't ask for it, even if they never knew who I was or why I did anything. And if I do bad things, or don't do good when I see the clear path, I'm hurting myself more than anyone else, because *I* will lose sleep over it, and I'll torture myself about it.

I tend to be intensely private about such things, telling no one, including my wife and family.

What's really funny about Wulf's post is that he comes across as much more hippie/lib/prog than I do. For all his bluster about taking care of oneself, being on one's own, having nobody to rely on and having to do everything alone, he really likes the idea of having Big Brother (or Big Father) at his back. He likes the idea of a safety net, of a large organization backing his beliefs and telling him how to act and what to do. Just don't you dare call that organization "government"!

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, March 28, 2012 6:06 PM

Quote:
Now, growing up, and being oh so impressionable, I had in mind the exact sort of person who was an 'atheist'. Rasputin comes to mind. Commie, obviously, evil, heartless...and one who was completely self centered, caring for only Earthly pleasures. If it felt good, do it! Those were the types of people who were atheists. Those who cared only for themselves. Who'd ever want to be so lost and depraved as they were ?

Why do you think Rasputin was a "commie"?

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, March 28, 2012 6:17 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
Quote:
I wanna party with you !

I have never claimed to not be extremely depressing to know.

I'm like an angrier Eeyore.

Okay, now *I* want to party with you!

Sorry, but Eeyore is my favorite of the Pooh characters. And, y'know, *angrier*. Grrrrr. Arrrgh.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, March 28, 2012 6:17 PM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht

Rasputin: I don't know whether he was an Atheist or not. He was certainly involved in some ... unsavory activities, but maybe that was just to look important to the TZarina and not because he actually believed in that stuff.

I have a friend who's a Atheist Jewish pagan Wiccan, figure that one out, although I think she's done with the Wiccan part of that.

Niki, I actually find that politics and religeon are safer than casual conversation sometimes, subjects of such magnitude leave so much to disagree on that people wastes less of their time with irrelevent personal attacks that have nothing to do with what's being discussed.

I watched this really cool documentary on the Himalayas, a six part series, and most of the people on it were Bhudist, but many of them mentioned gods and goddesses as well as enlightenment and other more common themes. So it appears that there are plenty of Bhudists that believe in dieties, just not all of them do.

I assume you're my pal until you let me know otherwise. "A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, March 28, 2012 6:28 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by RionaEire:

On time: I think of time as a string, it begins and ends. God is like the room the string is in, the string is so light it floats in the air and God is before it, after it, above it, below it, around it.

I think of it as a pool or a lake - it can ripple, there can be waves, it can get rough, and it can be chaotic. It can be compressed or expanded, twisted, woven, or warped, and can even be frozen.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, March 28, 2012 6:33 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by RionaEire:
Rasputin: I don't know whether he was an Atheist or not. He was certainly involved in some ... unsavory activities, but maybe that was just to look important to the TZarina and not because he actually believed in that stuff.

I think people have a tendency to conflate "commie" to "atheist" and vice-versa. I'm still asking for any credible evidence that Rasputin was a communist.

Quote:

I have a friend who's a Atheist Jewish pagan Wiccan, figure that one out, although I think she's done with the Wiccan part of that.

She's doing it wrong.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, March 28, 2012 7:02 PM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
I don't think Signe's assertions about the reason America has problems is because people, gasp, believe in things are founded.

Hmmm... really?

Tell me why.

------

BTW, Riona- I don't get pissed off when people disagree with me. I get pissed off when people are dishonest, or they fail to follow simple rules of logic (like goose sauce= gander sauce, something rappy has an extraordinarily hard time figuring out!) .

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, March 28, 2012 7:27 PM

MAGONSDAUGHTER

Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
Quote:
Ever read Carl Sagan's Demon Haunted World ? Just curious.

No. I tend to avoid intellectual input from famous philosophers and famous philosopher scientists. They think they're experts on unknowable topics. It's rather annoying.

Wow, that is a bit limiting. I think the best philosophers and sciencists create more questions than they do answers, they encourage debate, form hypotheses, develop dangerous ideas. They help us create space in our heads for awe and uncertainty - to my mind the polar opposite of religion.

If we do not listen (not necessariy agree) with the intellectual input of philosophers and scientists, then who do we listen to. Mainstream media commentators?

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, March 28, 2012 7:31 PM

MAGONSDAUGHTER

Rasputin - wasn't he an Orthodox Russian Christian? ie the Mad Monk

Never heard that he was involved with communism.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, March 28, 2012 7:38 PM

6IXSTRINGJACK

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Tony, of the developed nations, we have THE highest percent who believe in some sort of god, who think the earth was created recently, who go to church, who think guardian angels watch their every step. Higher even than Ireland! I'll see if I can find those stats for you!

We also have a very high percent of peeps who think aliens have abducted humans, the highest percent with "brand loyalty" (people who "buy" advertising), and the highest percent who feel that corporations are their friends. People walking around confused in so many fundamental ways it's a wonder they manage to survive.

Where do you get these FACTS from Signy? Gallop polls?

Let me ask you? Do you think that there is a census taken in any middle eastern country that is as invasive as our own is every ten years? Is every person in every foreign land put on a petri dish as us Americans willingly splay ourselves up because we can't be bothered with fighting against the humiliation of it all because we're so busy watching our AWESOME TV shows?

Come now Signy....

You're a Science Person....

I expect more from you....

To truly believe the results from tests that have been done, and to "preach" the results of said tests.... being of a scientific mind as you are.... you couldn't in good conscience quote polls that were derived with 30 different constants.

Tomato.... Tomato......

For every study you find that says it's pronounced (te-met-to, te-met-ä)

Half of these people live in caves with nothing to call their own but the sand that owns their asses. Of course they believe in their own god more than we do in America where every sin is available to anyone of any race, culture, social status or age.

You seem to hate America Signy, so you should be on board with this fact. In 2012, the USA is basically nothing more than textbook Sodom and Gomorrah.

Forgive me for laughing, but I think it's quite comical that you think that the impotent whinings of rich old white men like Rush or Glen Beck are so potent that you live in a world that is so Ripe with crazy Christian zealots that they'll castrate your son for being gay.

Forget the polls you read Signy.....

If you knew anyone who was gay in any Mid-East culture, chances are they'd know it too.....

And you and your family would likely be eating pigs that went to the slaughter several months later that ate your gay acquaintance or loved one.

Seriously Signy..... Life here, right now, so totally sucks since the 1980s, but it's so much better than anywhere else. If it wasn't, why are you still here? Why am I still here?

As a second part to that question, why do things seem to be much worse in 2012 than they were in 2008? I've been here since almost the beginning of the Bush Jr. realm, knocking him all the time, but things were supposed to be different in 2008....

They're different for sure..... All of Bush's ill-gotten powers are at OBama's disposal, and he's more than tripled the national deficit, which, behind global imperalism is the NUMBER ONE gripe I had with Bush... his insane spending.

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." ~Shepherd Book

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, March 28, 2012 8:35 PM

PHOENIXROSE

You think you know--what's to come, what you are. You haven't even begun.

Quote:
Originally posted by RionaEire:
I watched this really cool documentary on the Himalayas, a six part series, and most of the people on it were Bhudist, but many of them mentioned gods and goddesses as well as enlightenment and other more common themes. So it appears that there are plenty of Bhudists that believe in dieties, just not all of them do.

There are no deities in Buddhist practice. However, there are symbols that could be mistaken as such, or morphed into a more...traditional(?)... deity; beings which are meant to represent the embodiment of a certain desirable trait or aspect. Contemplation upon such a symbol is meant to help the practitioner embody the desired aspect.
Hinduism has deities. Though they are also mostly symbols of something, they're worshiped a bit more than they are contemplated upon.
There are plenty of people who make the mistake of treating Buddhism like a religion with gods and goddesses and worship of a person, but... that's not really what it's meant to be about. It's contemplative; it faces more inwards than outwards. (That's probably why long-term practitioners have such interesting brains and nervous systems, incidentally.)

What reason had proved best ceased to look absurd to the eye, which shows how idle it is to think anything ridiculous except what is wrong.

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, March 28, 2012 9:14 PM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht

Well then they're Bhudist Plus, lots of people around the world are something Plus.

Hi Signe, I just think your view of the situation is fairly radical.

I assume you're my pal until you let me know otherwise.

"A completely coherent River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Thursday, March 29, 2012 2:50 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:

What separates mere coincidence from causation is the proposal of a process by which A and B (and sometimes C) are related. I have done that.

Nope. You've made this statement, "Did you ever wonder why the USA, which is the most religious developed nation in the world, also has the highest crime rate and one of the worst standards of living (for a developed nation, that is)?"

As you note...

Quote:
There are all kinds of reasons how A and B can be correlated:

A causes B
B causes A
A and B are caused by C
Coincidence

In this case, unless you can show direct causation, I'm thinking "Coincidence".

Quote:
You haven't shown how that is NOT true...

Nor do I have to. You made the proposition. It's up to you to prove it. I can see nothing in your statement that directly links rates of religious belief in the U.S. and crime or poverty in the U.S., only the coincidence that they may be higher than other developing countries. As noted, you could make the same observation about crime/poverty and the rates of Chinese/African/Hispanic/Jewish populations.

I might note the the U.S. has the highest rate of dog ownership in the world. We also own the most cars per capita in the world. If we got rid of those damn head-out-the-window dogs, would we buy less cars?

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Thursday, March 29, 2012 3:02 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

GEEZER: Fail reading comprehension much? You said I didn't state a hypothesis, that my statement consisted of

Quote:
"Did you ever wonder why the USA, which is the most religious developed nation in the world, also has the highest crime rate and one of the worst standards of living (for a developed nation, that is)?"

But I actually DID create a hypothesis, I even labeled it as such, and it was...

Quote:
So, how's this for a hypothesis: If we didn't have such a stunted society, maybe we wouldn't have such emotionally destitute people who need an invisible friend? If we didn't have such a CHEAP source of comfort for the masses, maybe TBTB would need to expend a little more $$$ on the rest of society? Just a thought.

You also said

Quote:
You made the proposition. It's up to you to prove it.

Actually, Geezer, it's not up to me to prove my hypothesis. That's not how science works. It is a well-known logical problem that a hypothesis can never been proven, it can only be DISproven. So, there you go. Ball's in your court.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Thursday, March 29, 2012 3:22 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

RIONA

Calling a statement "fairly radical" doesn't show it to be untrue, just out of your norm. I could just as easily say that YOUR statement is "fairly stodgy", but that doesn't prove it untrue, either, and all we have done is engaged in a rather polite version of name-calling without getting one step closer to the truth.

SO, what about if we judge a statement's truth by comparing it to the evidence around us?

There was a time when everybody in the civilized world KNEW that the earth was flat. There was a time when everybody in the civilized world KNEW that the sun revolved around the earth. There was also a time when everybody KNEW the continents were stationary. There was also time when everybody KNEW God created the creatures of the earth. The concept of a round, revolving earth was at one time "fairly radical", but is also matched the evidence better than the other theories. Plate tectonics and evolution were also "fairly radical", but if you bang those theories against geological evidence, they hold up very well.

So instead of dismissing ideas because they aren't well-accepted by TPTB, what about doing some mental exploration?

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Thursday, March 29, 2012 3:56 AM

Quote:
Wow, that is a bit limiting. I think the best philosophers and sciencists create more questions than they do answers, they encourage debate, form hypotheses, develop dangerous ideas. They help us create space in our heads for awe and uncertainty - to my mind the polar opposite of religion.

If we do not listen (not necessariy agree) with the intellectual input of philosophers and scientists, then who do we listen to. Mainstream media commentators?

First, you misunderstood. I said philosophers, and scientist philosophers. Personally I think scientists should stick to SCIENCE, not philosophy, and I have very little care for anyone who styles themselves a philosopher in general.

For your second question about philosophers versus mainstream commentators: we should listen to neither.

I listen to myself and sometimes my friends. I do not lend much credibility to ideas from anyone who I have not personally communicated with. It seems rather pointless; they ultimately have no impact on my life.

Also, without personally communicating with them, I can't be entirely sure what their agenda is. Everyone has an agenda, some I can get behind and some that I can't. There's very good reason for me to not care what they have to say until I vet it.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Thursday, March 29, 2012 4:00 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

When "we" talk about whether "god" exists or not, we THINK we're being very open-minded. God... in however you imagine him to be... But inevitably, our thoughts are influenced by groupthink, so let's ask some very specific questions:

Does Neptune exist? Yanno, god the ocean, trident and all.

What about Moloch? Yanno, that burnt-child claimant?

If not them, what about Chaac, the Mayan god of rain?

If not THESE gods, what about ANY god? Why is one kind of god (which has no evidence for it whatsoever) preferable over another, equally baseless figure? Our gods change with our societies. That tells me something about where they come from.
---------------

Another way to look at the question is not whether "god" exists or not, but the role of RELIGION in society.

Since it's sometimes easiest to see what is farthest away, what about the role of religion in ancient Mayan, Aztec, Egyptian, and Greek societies? Were religions monotheistic or polytheistic? Did they reflect the power structure? Did they have the force of an army behind them? Did you have to be born into the religion or did they seek converts? Did they have a special priesthood class? If so, how did one get into the priesthood?

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Thursday, March 29, 2012 4:03 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
I do not lend much credibility to ideas from anyone who I have not personally communicated with. It seems rather pointless; they ultimately have no impact on my life.

Are you saying that people you haven't talked to have no impact on your life?

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Thursday, March 29, 2012 4:06 AM