REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

A partisan Supreme Court

POSTED BY: NIKI2
UPDATED: Friday, April 6, 2012 17:26
SHORT URL:
VIEWED: 2317
PAGE 1 of 1

Thursday, March 29, 2012 8:35 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Quote:

As the Supreme Court considers the health care law -- and in so doing, possibly dominates a national election for the third time since since 2000 -- Sen. John McCain (R-Ariz.) warns that a wave of corruption and scandal will result from the earlier high court decision in Citizens United.

As judicial precedent was abandoned in the Bush v. Gore and Citizens United cases, which transformed the Supreme Court into a protagonist in partisan and ideological wars, it is time to consider the dangers to the republic of a court whose majority -- which could be on the brink of another election-changing party-line vote -- increasingly acts as a partisan faction rather than a disinterested adjudicator of the law.

I supported the final health care bill, though I never compared it to landmark achievements such as Medicare and Social Security. It made the world a little bit better, but not as much as it should have, after the money-dominated meat grinder that destroyed the more profound reforms that I (and a majority of voters) supported, such as Medicare-for-all and the public option.

I believe the entire health care negotiation, the Supreme Court arguments in the Citizens United and health care cases and the ex parte speeches to interested parties by Justices Clarence Thomas and Antonin Scalia before they voted on Citizens United should all have been open to C-SPAN cameras and public review in real time.

McCain is right that money is the great corruption, and Brandeis was right that sunlight is the great disinfectant. Sadly for America, there is far too much money, and far too little sunlight, in a government that most voters believe, correctly, is corrupted by money that buys democracy in the dark.

I have no love for the mandate, a Republican idea that profits insurers. It was the price of extortion to finance the nobler parts of the law, but:

If the Supreme Court throws out the mandate and upholds the remainder of the law, it could politically benefit President Obama, who will obliterate Mitt Romney in a presidential debate about the mandate, will no longer have to defend the least popular provision of the law and will fairly claim credit for the popular elements thereof.

But if the court throws out the entire bill, there will be bonfires around the justices as voters learn what benefits are taken away by a court run amok.

Prior to 2000, no court had ever overruled the majority vote of the American people in a presidential election by a party-line vote of the justices, led by self-styled "conservatives" who claim to favor "federalism" but ordered a state, against its will, to stop counting votes.

Prior to 2010, no court had ever so corrupted American democracy by allowing unlimited, unregulated, undisclosed campaign spending by the factions that the Founding Fathers warned us against in the Federalist Papers.

On the great matter of American elections, the work of Washington, Jefferson, Adams, Madison and Hamilton is under attack by Chief Justice John Roberts, Thomas, Scalia and Justices Samuel Alito and Anthony Kennedy, who wear the life-tenured robes of judicial impartiality, but act with the aggression of partisans and ideologues.

McCain's warning of a wave of corruption and scandals created by the Citizens United majority is rooted in every lesson of history, experience, common sense and observation as the evils of money corrupting freedom, with a political discourse that is dirty and deformed in the eyes of our people, unfolding before the nation and the court.

I've heard this discussed before, and I agree with it. I have no more love for the health-care mandate than the author, but for me, Oamacare was just the first step, as has been everything else of value the legislature has put into play. To see even that be struck down on partisan principles just makes me want to hurl. It would put us ack to square one, at a time when health-care costs are skyrocketing and will only cotinue to do so without some drastic change.

When I was young, I believed in the Supreme Court as a relatively disinterested decider of law. Now it has become as much a farce as the rest of the Government. The mere facts of Thomas' very public backing of the right, not to mention his wife's actions, should have precluded him from judging on the highest court in the land, even if his record showed competency. For me, that was the beginning of the end, and that and putting Bush in office illegally in 2000, followed by Citizens United, were THE end. Each side now puts up a candidate for the Supreme Court someone they know will reflect their partisanship, but hope will be viewed as just moderate enough for the other side to accept. It's a total joke, and it disgusts me even more than the legislators who were long before paid off not to represent the good of the country, but to pander to those who got them elected. The health care debate is just another example of what's been going on for over a decade, to me.

We well and truly HAVE lost our way as a nation.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Thursday, March 29, 2012 9:01 AM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg


The federal government doesn't have the right to force American CITIZENS to purchase a product.

Sorry. No free country would allow its government to make people buy things the day they are born.

ObamaCare was a fail the minute it was conceived.





"Hope is a good thing, maybe the best of things, and no good thing ever dies"



NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Thursday, March 29, 2012 9:16 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


You're short sighted and ignorant. We're paying for people's free health care NOW. Who do you think pays for all those millions of E.R. visits which are the only way poor people get health care? YOU ARE! Given you'd rather continue that way, there's no point in any effort to debate you.



NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Thursday, March 29, 2012 9:21 AM

BIGDAMNNOBODY


Another thread brought to you by Niki2.
Only like minded people need to reply.

NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Thursday, March 29, 2012 9:30 AM

M52NICKERSON

DALEK!


Quote:

Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
The federal government doesn't have the right to force American CITIZENS to purchase a product.

Sorry. No free country would allow its government to make people buy things the day they are born.

ObamaCare was a fail the minute it was conceived.



So the Federal Law that required all 18 years in this coutry to own a gun was unconstitutional? Funny how that law was put in by the framers of the constitution.

Quote:

Originally posted by BigDamnNobody:
Another thread brought to you by Niki2.
Only like minded people need to reply.



No, just don't say stupid things.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Thursday, March 29, 2012 9:31 AM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg


Big,

Damn, buddy, you nailed it,

Nobody need reply.



"Hope is a good thing, maybe the best of things, and no good thing ever dies"



NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Thursday, March 29, 2012 10:01 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:
When I was young, I believed in the Supreme Court as a relatively disinterested decider of law.



Never read American history?

Franklin Roosevelt, the Hero of the Progressives, made no bones about trying to stack the Court after they declared parts of the New Deal unconstitutional. And that's just in recent history.

I'm happy if the Court's decisions lead to what I've seen called an "Equality of Dissatisfaction". Everyone is unhappy about some decision they've made.

If one side or the other is completely happy with Supreme Court decisions, I figure we're in trouble.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Thursday, March 29, 2012 10:22 AM

STORYMARK


Quote:

Originally posted by BigDamnNobody:
Another thread brought to you by Niki2.
Only like minded people need to reply.



By which I assume you mean, if you don't think it should be an one-sided idealogical tool?

Why am I not surprised that you and the Wulftard would consider that a BAD position....

Spoon!

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Thursday, March 29, 2012 11:05 AM

M52NICKERSON

DALEK!


While I do not like the citizens united decision it is most likley inline with the US Constitution and freedom of expression. I don't think corporations are people, but it is hard to say that groups of people, which corporations are, can't spend their money as they see fit.

Do I see corporate influence as a problem, yes! If anything the law should make it so any contributions must go to the canidates with full disclosure of who gave them. Get rid of all the 301c and super-pack garbage that allows people to hide.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Thursday, March 29, 2012 11:37 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
The federal government doesn't have the right to force American CITIZENS to purchase a product.

Sorry. No free country would allow its government to make people buy things the day they are born.

ObamaCare was a fail the minute it was conceived.





You are 100% dead on accurate.

And Kagan absolutely should recuse herself from this case. It's corruption at hte highest level that she's not going to do so.

" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall

"The world is a dangerous place. Not because of the people who are evil; but because of the people who don't do anything about it." - Albert Einstein


NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Thursday, March 29, 2012 11:54 AM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg


But she won't.

Cus, why would she?

Even when these assclowns piss in all of our faces, there is nary a word.

"Hope is a good thing, maybe the best of things, and no good thing ever dies"



NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Thursday, March 29, 2012 12:25 PM

NEWOLDBROWNCOAT


Been thinkin' about this one.
As I remember it, before Obama was elected, Health Care INSURANCE Reform was an issue. Hillary was in favor of an individual mandate-- everybody would be required to participate. Obama supported the public option.

ANd Obama won the nomination, based in part on that difference- I remember that that's why he got MY vote. SO he won the election and introduced the bill- as I remember it, it had both the public option and NO MANDATE in it.

The mandate got added by conservative , pro-business elements in Congress, and the public option killed by the same folks. I'da voted for no mandate and the public option.

I think those elements were changed by conservatives as "poison pills", to make sure nobody supported the finished product.

I think, personally, that The Supremes should overturn the Mandate, and leave the rest stand, make Congress go back and make the Rest of it work. How is Congress' business.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Thursday, March 29, 2012 12:34 PM

NEWOLDBROWNCOAT


Quote:

Originally posted by m52nickerson:


So the Federal Law that required all 18 years in this coutry to own a gun was unconstitutional? Funny how that law was put in by the framers of the constitution.




Not aware that there was any such Federal law. I thought that such laws were local, state, or colonial militia laws. Can you cite it by name and date?

E T A: I was wrong. found it myself while checking something else:
Quote:


The Militia Act of 1792 was a series of statutes enacted by the second United States Congress in 1792.


NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Thursday, March 29, 2012 1:37 PM

M52NICKERSON

DALEK!


It was the Second Militia Act of 1792.

"That every citizen, so enrolled and notified, shall, within six months thereafter, provide himself with a good musket or firelock, a sufficient bayonet and belt, two spare flints, and a knapsack, a pouch, with a box therein, to contain not less than twenty four cartridges, suited to the bore of his musket or firelock, each cartridge to contain a proper quantity of powder and ball; or with a good rifle, knapsack, shot-pouch, and powder-horn, twenty balls suited to the bore of his rifle, and a quarter of a pound of powder; and shall appear so armed, accoutred and provided, when called out to exercise or into service, except, that when called out on company days to exercise only, he may appear without a knapsack."

http://constitution.org/mil/mil_act_1792.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Militia_Acts_of_1792

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Thursday, March 29, 2012 1:40 PM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg


Hmmm..

So when gun control got enacted, and citizens were not allowed to protect themselves, their families, their neighborhoods...

Everything went to shit.

Big surprise.

Damn, but didnt the founders get it right the first gorram time?

"Hope is a good thing, maybe the best of things, and no good thing ever dies"



NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Thursday, March 29, 2012 2:11 PM

M52NICKERSON

DALEK!


Foghorn Leghorn said it best, "Your built to low to the ground son, the fast ones go over your head."

Also you should know that the first true gun control laws were in response to an increase in violent crime.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Thursday, March 29, 2012 2:12 PM

KPO

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.


Quote:

Damn, but didnt the founders get it right the first gorram time?


So you agree with the founders forcing citizens to purchase guns?

It's not personal. It's just war.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Thursday, March 29, 2012 2:15 PM

HERO


This case can still go any one of about a dozen different ways. Both sides presented reasonable arguments and I suspect we will get a very thoutful decision with equally well written dissents. If you agree you will support the decision, if not you won't.

My read either 5-4 in favor or 5-4 or 6-3 against. If against then 5-4 to throw out the whole thing.

The long shot is 5-4 saying its a tax and not a penalty and punting the issue to after 2014.

I suspect Obama is regretting calling the Court out a couple years back at the State of the Union. In private that offended both sides of the Court.

H

"Hero. I have come to respect you." "I am forced to agree with Hero here."- Chrisisall, 2009.
"I agree with Hero." Niki2, 2011.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Thursday, March 29, 2012 3:45 PM

FREMDFIRMA



Yeah, it's not like stacking the supremes has ever not been a serious problem - you may find these articles informative.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Midnight_Judges_Act
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marbury_v._Madison

Worth a note that the Antifederalists pointed out this WOULD happen before the Constitution was even ratified, and were scorned dismissively by the same Federalists who, in hindsight, apparently planned to do so all along.

Also, bribing them via their wives is a known problem as well.

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Friday, March 30, 2012 3:09 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:
I have no more love for the health-care mandate than the author, but for me, Oamacare was just the first step, as has been everything else of value the legislature has put into play. To see even that be struck down on partisan principles just makes me want to hurl.



What if it were struck down by direct democracy?

Per Politifact, a majority of Americans polled oppose the individual mandate.

Quote:

The individual mandate consistently shows up as the most unpopular piece of the health care legislation, and recent polls are no different.

A brief roundup:

* Kaiser Family Foundation: 30 percent feel somewhat favorable or very favorable about the individual mandate, 67 percent feel somewhat unfavorable or very unfavorable.

* Pew Research Center: 32 percent had a favorable view of the provision, while 66 percent viewed it unfavorably.

* National Journal: 28 percent of those surveyed said they supported the mandate, while 66 percent opposed it.

* The ABC News/Washington Post poll asked a slightly different question and found 26 percent of Americans want to uphold the entire health care law, 25 percent want to throw out just the mandate, and 42 percent want to get rid of the whole thing.

"In other words," Blendon told us, "the Washington Post finds that 67 percent of Americans want to get rid of the mandate."

Said Bowman: "Nearly every poll I’ve seen (and there are dozens) shows the public opposed to the mandate. If Santorum was speaking about the mandate only, the polls show opposition (and much of it strong)."



http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2012/mar/29/rick-sa
ntorum/santorum-says-americans-overwhelmingly-oppose-heal
/


NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Friday, March 30, 2012 3:32 AM

M52NICKERSON

DALEK!


I would think that would be fine, if we had a direct democracy. We don't and that is a good thing.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Friday, March 30, 2012 4:45 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Originally posted by m52nickerson:
I would think that would be fine, if we had a direct democracy. We don't and that is a good thing.




So you're saying the Occupy movement's espousal of direct democracy is not a good thing?

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Friday, March 30, 2012 5:00 AM

M52NICKERSON

DALEK!


Quote:

Originally posted by Geezer:
Quote:

Originally posted by m52nickerson:
I would think that would be fine, if we had a direct democracy. We don't and that is a good thing.




So you're saying the Occupy movement's espousal of direct democracy is not a good thing?



Yes. There are more then a few idea's that have been put forth by the Occupy movement, or people within it, that I do not agree with.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Friday, March 30, 2012 5:54 AM

HERO


Quote:

Originally posted by m52nickerson:
So you're saying the Occupy movement's espousal of direct democracy is not a good thing?


So the Occupy Movement wants direct democracy?

After 9/11 a majority favored invasion of Iraq, Iran, and Afganistan.

A majority feel gay marriage should be illegal and we are split right down the middle on abortion.

No Obamacare...but also no stimulas.

A majority favor drilling in Alaska and pretty much everywhere else.

How about the predestination paradox of direct democracy...the majority do not support direct democracy.

I bet the majority could all agree to only allow the majority to have any say in govt.

This is something for liberals and conservatives to consider and holds true with this case. Just because something like direct democracy benefits you now...it may not later.

The same is true of the individual mandate. If liberals can force people to buy health insurance...then in a year, or four, or eight...conservatives can force liberals to buy something that supports what they like...

H

"Hero. I have come to respect you." "I am forced to agree with Hero here."- Chrisisall, 2009.
"I agree with Hero." Niki2, 2011.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Friday, March 30, 2012 6:13 AM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg


"The same is true of the individual mandate. If liberals can force people to buy health insurance...then in a year, or four, or eight...conservatives can force liberals to buy something that supports what they like..."

Done in one.

Assclowns keep forgetting that they will not be in power forever. (Or live forever, for that matter.)

"Hope is a good thing, maybe the best of things, and no good thing ever dies"



NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Friday, March 30, 2012 7:04 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Quote:

The mandate got added by conservative , pro-business elements in Congress, and the public option killed by the same folks. I'da voted for no mandate and the public option.

I think those elements were changed by conservatives as "poison pills", to make sure nobody supported the finished product.

You nailed it, NewOld. If the health-care law stands, Republicans win 'cuz the insurance companies make out like bandits. If it loses, Republicans win by making Obama look bad, and how long will it be before anything else comes down the pike?

What makes me chortle most when I hear the bitching and moaning about forcing people to buy health insurance is that the individual mandate originated by and was for a long time being PUSHED by the Republicans:
Quote:

As the U.S. Supreme Court hears arguments on President Barack Obama's signature health-care law, there is a curious twist: The case largely rests on the constitutionality of a provision that originated deep in Republican circles.

The "individual mandate," which requires virtually all Americans to obtain health insurance or pay a fine, was the brainchild of conservative economists and embraced by some of the nation's most prominent Republicans for nearly two decades. Yet today, many of those champions -- including presidential hopefuls Mitt Romney and Newt Gingrich -- are among the mandate's most vocal critics.

Meanwhile, even as Democratic stalwarts warmed to the idea in recent years, one of the last holdouts was the man whose political fate is now most closely intertwined with the mandate: Obama.

The tale begins in the late 1980s, when conservative economists such as Mark Pauly, a professor at the University of Pennsylvania's Wharton School of Business, were searching for ways to counter liberal calls for government-sponsored universal health coverage.

"We wanted to find an alternative that was more consistent with market-oriented economic ideas and would involve less government intervention," Pauly said.

His solution: a system of tax credits to ensure that all Americans could purchase at least bare-bones "catastrophic" coverage.

Pauly then proposed a mandate requiring everyone to obtain this minimum coverage, thus guarding against "free riders": people who refuse to buy insurance and then, in a crisis, receive care whose costs are absorbed by hospitals, the government and other consumers.

Heath-policy analysts at the conservative Heritage Foundation, led by Stuart Butler, picked up the idea and began developing it for lawmakers in Congress.

By 1993, when President Bill Clinton was readying his major health-care overhaul bill, the Heritage approach -- subsidizing and facilitating the purchase of private health plans, while using the individual mandate to maximize participation -- had gelled as the natural Republican alternative.

Then-Sen. John Chafee, R-R.I., formally proposed it in a bill that attracted 19 other Republican co-sponsors. The bill foundered once Clinton's effort unraveled. But the idea of the mandate gained currency in the ensuing years as Democrats chastened by the failure of the Clinton plan began considering new solutions more likely to attract bipartisan support.

That process came to a head in 2005, when Mitt Romney, then governor of Massachusetts, turned to then-Sen. Edward Kennedy, D-Mass., for help adopting a health-care overhaul for the state that was largely based on providing residents with government subsidies to buy private insurance.

The plan regulated insurance companies to a degree beyond anything Pauly had envisioned: For instance, they were barred from excluding or charging higher premiums to people with pre-existing health conditions.

But this only heightened the conviction of the health-care plan's Republican backers that an individual mandate was needed.

Without it, they argued, people could wait until they were sick to buy insurance, forcing insurers to cover the extra cost by massively increasing rates or to pull out of the market altogether.

Harvard's McDonough said it is hard to overstate the significance of Kennedy agreeing to take on the free-market ideas advanced by Romney.

"The alliance between Romney and Kennedy was of fundamental importance in terms of creating a level of confidence going into (the) 2008 (presidential elections) that this could actually be the bipartisan path to achieve universal health care in the United States," he said. http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/2012/03/26/20120326health-manda
te-originally-republican-idea.html

We should remind them of that every time they start puffing out their chests and damning Obama (who WANTED the public option; Republicans managed to stonewall that, remember?).

Just keep that in mind, die-hard righties: YOUR GUYS created the individual mandate and pushed it for TWO DECADES.

As to the Iraq war, sure, fear, lies and propaganda work, especially given 9/11. If they'd had the FACTS, the percentage who were still in favor of starting the wars would be miniscule. As people learn more or experience more about an issue, their opinions get better.
Quote:

A majority feel gay marriage should be illegal and we are split right down the middle on abortion.
Wrong Those are two places where, over time, people HAVE become educated, and their opinions have changed. Regarding gay marriage:
Quote:

On May 20, 2011, Gallup reported majority support for gay marriage by a margin that exceeded the poll's margin of error. In June 2011, two prominent polling organizations released an analysis of the changing trend in public opinion about same-sex marriage in the United States, concluding that "public support for the freedom to marry has increased, at an accelerating rate, with most polls showing that a majority of Americans now support full marriage rights for all Americans." Wiki

On abortion:
Quote:

Twenty-eight years after the U.S. Supreme Court made abortion legal, nearly six in 10 Americans say it should stay that way.

Generally, 59 percent say abortion should be legal in all or most cases, a number that's held fairly steady the last several years. These views have been generally stable over time, although support for legal abortion in all or most cases is up six points from last summer. http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/story?id=120953&page=1 to Obamacare:
Quote:

Polling shows that 58 percent of Americans dislike Obamacare when it is packaged together and called Obamacare. This could be due to actual dislike of the law, or to Republican politicians crafting a narrative about the largest health care change since the institution of Medicare.

It appears to be tied to the narrative, more than the facts when looking at the numbers when aspects of Obamacare are broken down. Note: All poll data is from Real Clear Politics

Over 50 percent of Americans polled over a three year period agree with the following statements:
• Insurance companies should spend more money on health care than on administrative costs.
• People should not be denied health insurance because of an illness.
• The government should lower health care costs to participants.
• The government should help lower class people obtain health care.
• Everyone should have access to health care.
• The government should not force people to buy health insurance.

Take a look at that list. The first five all are favorable towards Obamacare. The last refers to the individual mandates requiring people to purchase private health insurance. This was the solution once debate removed the single-payer option from the law. It is the same mandate required in Massachusetts, where health care costs have grown much slower than the national rate. Massachusetts was leading the nation in growing health care costs. Now, they are middle of the pack thanks to Romneycare.

When people criticize Obamacare, they appear to be in favor of the vast majority of the law. The only point of contention is the individual mandates, which the Supreme Court will decide in the near future. The federal government requiring individuals to purchase a private product is an interesting debate. States have already seen their power to require individuals to purchase insurance products upheld in the courts. http://doubledippolitics.com/2012/03/25/polling-shows-people-support-m
ajority-of-obamacare-parts-oppose-law/
to drilling, it's only natural that Americans, addicted to oil and facing high gasoline prices, would buy into the immense propaganda that increased oil production is good for us. A majority are in favor of the Keystone pipeline, too, because they are ignorant and fearful. And addicted.

If you had an EDUCATED public, Keystone would die in a minute and people would realize alternative energy is the only way, not to mention becoming aware of what fracking, drilling, etc., are doing to their lives. If you had an educated public, they'd be clamoring for a public option. When the public buys what's spoon-fed them, the result is obvious, and that's the problem. How you get an educated public is beyond me, and the only alternative is educated legislators to represent the people. First you have to find educated legislators who WANT to represent the people...good luck with that!

Oh, and a majority of Americans DID favor the stimulus, just to remind you:
Quote:

New Gallup polling shows that 53% of Americans favor and 36% oppose Congress' passing a new $775 billion stimulus package of the type President-elect Barack Obama described in his Thursday speech on the economy. There is even higher support for specific elements it could include, such as major new government spending for infrastructure, income tax cuts, and tax incentives for businesses. http://www.gallup.com/poll/113701/majority-americans-favor-775-billion
-economic-stimulus.aspx
, by the way and despite Republican propaganda to the opposite, DID work. The evidence shows the stimulus (and other stimulative measures, including those of the Fed) worked, but ended too soon, before the private sector was ready to walk on its own.


Unemployment is at a four-year low of 8.3%; we know all the talking points, but anyone who figured Obama was some kind of miracle worker who could fix everything in a year or two--or four!--was either stupid or had partisan blinders on.



NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Friday, March 30, 2012 7:34 AM

KPO

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.


Here, Wulfie Wulfie...

Quote:

So you agree with the founders forcing citizens to purchase guns?

Still waiting for your answer.

It's not personal. It's just war.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Friday, March 30, 2012 7:56 AM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg


Life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.

I think every home should have the tools needed to protect themselves.

But forcing it is stupid. Just like ObamaCare is stupid.

Founders were right in wanting each and every citizen to own a firearm. To protect themselves and the country, if needs be. Plus, it helps stop the need for a standing army if every citizen were armed. (Not to mention keeping politicians in check.)

But again, if what is stated is true, forcing a citizen to purchase something, even something I agree with, is still wrong.

"Hope is a good thing, maybe the best of things, and no good thing ever dies"



NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Sunday, April 1, 2012 7:26 PM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht


What do you guys think about the idea of states having direct democracy, but the nationwide/federal stuff staying the way it is regarding voting etc.? I think this is something I'm going to consider. Sure we'd end up with state laws that I don't agree with, but the whole point of a democracy is supposed to be so people determine things for themselves. Ideas of why this would, or wouldn't, be a good idea. I'm getting more and more into states deciding more things for themselves instead of having DC tell them all what to do. Obviously I think there are some things that should be federal, but it seems to be becoming too much.

I assume you're my pal until you let me know otherwise. "A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Friday, April 6, 2012 5:26 PM

6IXSTRINGJACK


Hi Nikki,

Believe it or not, but since 1803, the Judicial Branch has, more-often-than-not overturned over 170 "laws" passed onto us by a "Democratically elected Congress" because they were unconstitutional. This blatant disregard for the constitution would not be the first ILLEGAL law shut down, as some people would have us believe.

That being said, I do agree with you whole-heartedly that many of the decisions either "way" in the last 60 or so years, nearly 30 years before I was born, are just party-line votes.

As ICP says "How many times will a judge decide my fate? Who is he? A bitch; nothing great."





If it somehow does pass, don't think it's "FREE" health care. Somebody still pays those bills.

If you're 95 and living day to day because of the kidney dialisis machines, the endless chemo therapy and the 30 pills you take a day, then you're living life with gravy. If you're an illegal who's kids were born here and they automatically get free health care because American politicians or teachers don't have the balls to say that they shouldn't get it since their parents didn't pay into it their entire lives, then by all means... enjoy it.....

Watch how quickly the southern born cockroaches flee the country when China finally calls us on our debts.....

The Mexicans who live here today and send money back home only do it because it's a better job then they can get back home.

When making a living doing drug cartel work back home becomes a better option because China has finally called the US the bitch we are, they'll all go back south of the boarder....

Unfortunately for them, with their piss-poor army, they'll fall right after we do, just like Canada.....

Good luck in the future.

Hope you speak Chinese!

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

YOUR OPTIONS

NEW POSTS TODAY

USERPOST DATE

OTHER TOPICS

DISCUSSIONS
Trump Presidency 2024 - predictions
Thu, October 31, 2024 20:54 - 15 posts
U.S. Senate Races 2024
Thu, October 31, 2024 20:49 - 9 posts
Electoral College, ReSteal 2024 Edition
Thu, October 31, 2024 20:47 - 35 posts
Are we witnessing President Biden's revenge tour?
Thu, October 31, 2024 20:44 - 7 posts
No Thread On Topic, More Than 17 Days After Hamas Terrorists Invade, Slaughter Innocent Israelis?
Thu, October 31, 2024 20:35 - 35 posts
Ghosts
Thu, October 31, 2024 20:30 - 72 posts
U.S. House Races 2024
Thu, October 31, 2024 20:30 - 5 posts
Election fraud.
Thu, October 31, 2024 20:28 - 35 posts
Will religion become extinct?
Thu, October 31, 2024 19:59 - 90 posts
Japanese Culture, S.Korea movies are now outselling American entertainment products
Thu, October 31, 2024 19:46 - 44 posts
Elon Musk
Thu, October 31, 2024 19:33 - 28 posts
Kamala Harris for President
Thu, October 31, 2024 19:24 - 594 posts

FFF.NET SOCIAL