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Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
Get your popcorn ready, this should be a good one.

http://takimag.com/article/the_talk_nonblack_version_john_derbyshire#a
xzz1rBeqdcIl

http://globalgrind.com/news/the-talk-non-black-John-Derbyshire-trayvon
-martin-details

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Granted, some here would be afraid to say that it was.

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Originally posted by WULFENSTAR:
Yes, its racist. Yes, its harsh.

But.

Is it wrong?

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We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.

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The connection between race and intelligence has been a subject of debate in both popular science and academic research since the inception of intelligence testing in the early 20th century. There are no universally accepted definitions of either race or intelligence in academia, and any discussion of their connection involves studies from multiple disciplines, including psychology, anthropology, biology, and sociology.

The American Psychological Association has said that while there are differences in average IQ between racial groups, and there is no conclusive evidence for environmental explanations, "there is certainly no [direct empirical] support for a genetic interpretation," and no adequate explanation for the racial IQ gap is presently available.

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Originally posted by WULFENSTAR:
"Yes. It targets an entire group of people for no reason other than the color of their skin."

In Vietnam, soldiers were wary of women pushing strollers.

In Iraq/Afghanistan soldiers are wary of most anyone.

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Yes, trailer-park trash act the same way. So do Mexis. Its the culture of the left side of the bell-curve. But some groups end up on the wrong side of humanity, more than others.

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Originally posted by WULFENSTAR:
"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."

This is unquestionably true.

I don't argue against this, nor seek to say that it is an outdated ideology that doesn't meet the needs of a 21st century society.

Instead, I simply do 2 things.

One is post the musings of another person.

The second, ask you to disprove those ideas.

Let me give you some boundaries, however. Prove them (being the entirety of the article and its views) wrong (NOT in a moralistic point of view).

You want to say these ideas are wrong, go for it. But PROVE it using the scientific method.

This is not simply a moral question. In fact, for too long it has been framed as such.

Instead, I would argue, it is a scientific, survivalist question.

Take it point by point.

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Originally posted by WULFENSTAR:
Instead, I simply do 2 things.

One is post the musings of another person.

The second, ask you to disprove those ideas.

Let me give you some boundaries, however. Prove them (being the entirety of the article and its views) wrong (NOT in a moralistic point of view).

You want to say these ideas are wrong, go for it. But PROVE it using the scientific method.

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Originally posted by WULFENSTAR:
"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."

This is unquestionably true.

I don't argue against this, nor seek to say that it is an outdated ideology that doesn't meet the needs of a 21st century society.

Instead, I simply do 2 things.

One is post the musings of another person.

The second, ask you to disprove those ideas.

Let me give you some boundaries, however. Prove them (being the entirety of the article and its views) wrong (NOT in a moralistic point of view).

You want to say these ideas are wrong, go for it. But PROVE it using the scientific method.

This is not simply a moral question. In fact, for too long it has been framed as such.

Instead, I would argue, it is a scientific, survivalist question.

Take it point by point.

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we hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness?

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Originally posted by BYTEMITE:

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we hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness?

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Well, um, I actually think that context is pretty important here. Whether there is or isn't a god, and whether the guy who wrote that owned slaves or not, the document was signed by people (some also slaveowners) who were willing to go to war because they felt that they weren't being allowed to make important decisions about their government and their economy.

As such I'm not sure it's so much a statement of how the world is, but rather an idealization of what people want the world to be like. That no matter where they are, they'd like anyone they met to have a basic appreciation that they are human, extend basic decency, and vice versa.

Cynical as I am, hypocrites they might have all been, that's not really something I can argue against.

As such I'm not really sure it's a point Wulf or any of us really wants to argue or dismiss. I think there are some other discussions to be had here.

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Originally posted by WULFENSTAR:
"I did, too. Obviously from what he wrote, these are Wulf's beliefs as well as DErbyshire's. Thank gawd he and Derbyshire reflect a dying breed. But that they should die quickly, and not procreate so that they pass on their sick views to the next generation (which obviously it's too late to keep Wulf from doing. I take heart that his children rejected Derbyshire's sick racism; I fear for Wulf's child."

Actually, Niki. You, and yours, are a dying breed. Feel that? Its age creeping up on you. Hurts a little more getting up in the morning, doesn't it? Thank GOD, you and your kind are finally starting to die off. Its just a matter of time. "Getting old, but still a hippie at heart..."

And considering that you and your kind are so spoiled and selfish that you couldn't even conceive of having children (THANK GOD), your philosophy is finally fucking dying.

Its up to those of us who suffered through your generations assclownery to rule the world. And many of us, have figured out that your life-style, belief-system, idiocy were false.

You die, your sick beliefs die with you. And the world is better for it.

Hurry up already.

AND, part of throwing off the nonsense your kind has foisted on us, is the ridiculous idea that we have to continue to suffer from "white-guilt". Hispanics, Asians, Whites are tired of it.

Like you cast off the idea of being "born-with-sin", we cast off the same.

You rise and fall on your own. I don't owe anyone anything.

As for my daughter. Watch your mouth you stupid fucking bitch.

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I kind of have to agree that Wulf's kid should be left out of all these discussions.

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Originally posted by WULFENSTAR:

MLK said "... but by the content of their character."

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As to this article... its not that he is wrong, its that he is RIGHT which upsets people.

That says more about the subject than the writer.

Would that article have worked if it was written about Asians?

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Originally posted by AgentRouka:

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Originally posted by WULFENSTAR:

MLK said "... but by the content of their character."

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Nothing in this article attempts to judge people by the content of their character, you realize that, right? It's a work of bogus statistics and "averages" that broadly sweeps all black people into the realm of "threat to personal safety" and recommends all but the most limited contact. Where it doesn't stamp them violently hostile and "less competent", it freely likens them to objects that can be assets to white people.

Nothing about this respects the individual.

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As to this article... its not that he is wrong, its that he is RIGHT which upsets people.

That says more about the subject than the writer.

Would that article have worked if it was written about Asians?

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I don't think it worked as it is. At all. It might if he was writing about vampires. Or vicious dogs. I don't know.

I'm sure some IWSV (intelligent and well-socialized vampires) might be an asset to befriend, a rare commodity that both employers and other non-vampires would covet. It might be wise to avoid all-vampire neighborhoods. Or leave any gathering where vampire numbers suddenly swell. Or not stop to help out a stranded vampire.

They actually live off our blood, so the blanket threat makes sense in that case. You know? But human beings?

This is not a good article to use when illustrating your anti-anti-discrimination legislation views. Because it's not really about that. It's really about regarding dark-skinned people as sub-human.

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The author is right. It sucks, but he is. This article could not play for any other group, or subset (without being tweeked for said specific grouping).

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That said, I find it in equally bad taste to equate not having children with being selfish. WHO has kids to fulfill some kind of social obligation? No one. People have kids because they want to (or that should be the only reason) and that's no more or less selfish than choosing not to have them.

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Originally posted by WULFENSTAR:
Agent,

"It's really about regarding dark-skinned people as sub-human."

Some Asians are dark-skinned. Indians as well (dots, not feathers). Hispanics too.

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No. This addresses a specific subset culture, native to American (and even, British) society.

ACTUAL African-Americans, those who are in the process of becoming Americans, are disdained by this specific subset culture.

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The author is right. It sucks, but he is. This article could not play for any other group, or subset (without being tweeked for said specific grouping).

You could write one for Mexicans, for Hispanics, for Asians, for Whites. You would have to change things, but it would still work.

So, why the argument? Why the horrible, gut-churning, reaction?

Is it because it groups all one subset, and bashes them? Ok. If that is so wrong then why do so many do it? Why is one ok, and the other is not?

Before you say different... google "white male". "Christian", "liberal", "conservative", "democrat", "Mexican", "illegal", or a hundred other types.

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The truth of the matter is, this author nailed it on this specific sub-group.

But to acknowledge that, is to be labeled racist. Google racist. Then google reverse-racism.

He has it right.

You want a REAL starting point in talking "race-relations" in this country? Start here, start with this article. Acknowledge the truth of it, and move forward from there. Otherwise...just keep on, keeping on. Same old, same old. Breed anger, bitterness, hatred.

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Blacks may have some grievances(whites especially). But the rest of the world has grievances against blacks.

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Anthony does it during arguments to pretend like he didn't actually understand what was being said.

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that _Wulf shouldn't ever mention his daughter. Well that makes a rutload of sense (sarcasm intended).

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And if people don't want to have children they should ... surprise ... not have children, its simple really.

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Originally posted by HKCavalier:
Ach. Yetch. Jesus. So, is ol' Wulfman now done denying that he's a white supremacist? Because ya can't say that whites are superior to blacks and pretend you don't believe that whites are superior to blacks, y'know? We clear?

I dunno. I live in a black neighborhood in Seattle. Before I lived where I do now, I lived in another section of the black neighborhood (Central District) for a total of nearly 15 years and counting. No intention of moving. I've been to all-black churches. Nearly all-black political rallies. I shop at a mostly black grocery store (the Red Apple on 23rd is legendary for it's excellent Motown shopping music--people dancing in the aisles). Last year I let African Americans borrow my phone to call 911 when they were in a car wreck with some West Africans. I'm around plenty of blacks "not known to me personally" every day. Anyway. The point is: I'm still standing, never been shot at, never been physically attacked or intimidated by black people (white people are another story).

So there's my absolutely irrefutable scientific proof!

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

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Originally posted by Niki2:

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Actually, Niki. You, and yours, are a dying breed. Feel that? Its age creeping up on you. Hurts a little more getting up in the morning, doesn't it? Thank GOD, you and your kind are finally starting to die off. Its just a matter of time. "Getting old, but still a hippie at heart..."

And considering that you and your kind are so spoiled and selfish that you couldn't even conceive of having children (THANK GOD), your philosophy is finally fucking dying.

Its up to those of us who suffered through your generations assclownery to rule the world. And many of us, have figured out that your life-style, belief-system, idiocy were false.

You die, your sick beliefs die with you. And the world is better for it.

Hurry up already.

AND, part of throwing off the nonsense your kind has foisted on us, is the ridiculous idea that we have to continue to suffer from "white-guilt". Hispanics, Asians, Whites are tired of it.

Like you cast off the idea of being "born-with-sin", we cast off the same.

You rise and fall on your own. I don't owe anyone anything.

As for my daughter. Watch your mouth you stupid fucking bitch.

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Thank you, Anthony. I won't forget it, either. If Wulf EVER clamors for civility again, it'll be around to remind him, and to remind him that I have never, ever written to him anything even close to that, nor called him a succubus or any of the other filthy things he's called me.

That is the most disgusting piece of shit I've seen since what's-his-name (DAMN, I can never remember his name--can anyone remind me?) went after me; even Raptor is above that kind of filth.

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Beyond that, the only satisfaction I take is that I seem to have touched a nerve--what nerve, I have no idea, but Wulf has obviously become not just my detractor, but my enemy. Means nothing to me; I live in the real world. But it's sickening to read what his mind comes up with.

Uh, Byte and Riona, you still want to champion this guy? Ever see me write ANYTHING even close to this, or wish for his death or his pain? Shouldn't have taken you long to understand why there are bad feelings from many on this board toward him. Justifiably bad feelings. Just sayin'.

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