The Talk. by Wulfenstar

REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

The Talk.

POSTED BY: WULFENSTAR
UPDATED: Thursday, April 12, 2012 14:04
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VIEWED: 6083
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Wednesday, April 11, 2012 6:15 PM

Hmmm, well I have issue with being insulted indirectly at all. I think I've said why in other threads. That sort of stuff creeps up on you and leaves you feeling like a fool.

What about this for a reasonable rule of thumb - attack the argument, not the person. You can be as direct as you like.

"What you say stinks"

is quite different to ...

"you have the mind of an imbecile"

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Wednesday, April 11, 2012 6:24 PM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht

Hi Magon's, I would indeed like to see more people stand up and say that certain things are just plain mean and they don't want to see it said. So by doing that I am setting an example of what I want to see more of. In regards to the rest I'm only human and so have flaws and I'm not going to be pretentious and pretend I don't.

Niki, what you refer to as passive agressive insulting I refer to as sideways insulting. I see others do it a lot, Anthony for one, so I don't understand why I'm always the one called out on it. But I guess being called out on something I don't view as a problem really isn't a big thing, so people can call all they like. I see though that you prefer directness, which can be an admirable trait depending on how you look at it. I think I'm direct sometimes, but sometimes it seems the other is called for.

I think its worth mentioning that in real life I avoid fights, I try not to get into them and when I do I don't like it and try to find my way out of them as quick as possible.

I also find it noteworthy that Kiki made an interesting observation a while back, she said what some view as passive agressiveness she, and others, view as politely trying to say what you think without being obnoxiously forward about it. Maybe she's on to something.

I assume you're my pal until you let me know otherwise.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya.

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Wednesday, April 11, 2012 6:56 PM

MAGONSDAUGHTER

Quote:
Originally posted by RionaEire:
Hi Magon's, I would indeed like to see more people stand up and say that certain things are just plain mean and they don't want to see it said. So by doing that I am setting an example of what I want to see more of. In regards to the rest I'm only human and so have flaws and I'm not going to be pretentious and pretend I don't.

I'm fine with you doing that, Rione, so long as you are fine with being called out when you are being mean. All of us have faults, no one here (I think) would see themselves as otherwise, but if someone gets picked up on a certain behaviour and say "I'll keep doing it even though its wrong" then to me that's a kind of strange position to take. It shows a deliberate intent to insult and hurt, which I think is far worse than saying something heated in the moment and apologising later.

Quote:
Niki, what you refer to as passive agressive insulting I refer to as sideways insulting. I see others do it a lot, Anthony for one, so I don't understand why I'm always the one called out on it. But I guess being called out on something I don't view as a problem really isn't a big thing, so people can call all they like. I see though that you prefer directness, which can be an admirable trait depending on how you look at it. I think I'm direct sometimes, but sometimes it seems the other is called for.

I think its worth mentioning that in real life I avoid fights, I try not to get into them and when I do I don't like it and try to find my way out of them as quick as possible.

I also find it noteworthy that Kiki made an interesting observation a while back, she said what some view as passive agressiveness she, and others, view as politely trying to say what you think without being obnoxiously forward about it. Maybe she's on to something.

Perhaps you feel more comfortable insulting someone 'sideways' but it is no more comfortable for them. An insult is an insult, direct or indirect, and when someone is being passive aggressive, they are not being polite, they are being sneaky. The end result is the same for the receiver, and to my mind, it is slightly worse and I will give you an example of why.

When Wulf made his post regarding niki, people jumped on him pretty much straight away. Niki was able to call him out. Wulf bears the consequences of his behaviour. When someone is passive aggressive, the 'victim' feels it, may be hurt or insulted but others are usually oblivious. Sometimes the victim may not even be able to call the aggressor out because its too hard to pin down what has caused hurt. But hurt was intended and usually felt. The aggressor gets away scot free. It is an intensley unpleasant and manipulative form of behaviour.

Now you may or may not have been passive aggressive. I can't say I have felt particularly insulted by you, and I am not sure about anyone else. I haven't observed it Anthony, who is usually very polite. I could be wrong. I'd probably have thought you tended towards being a tad sanctimonous about people from time to time. But I'd say that if you think you are being passive aggressive, you probably should not be okay with that as it is a very unpleasant way to conduct yourself.

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Wednesday, April 11, 2012 7:37 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Hello,

I think there may be subtle nuances that divide different types of insult, and perhaps we might imagine a complex graph that assigns values to the emotional pain content of each type. Call it the Sinister Matrix. When I insult someone (and I do) I often try to substitute wit for crassness, to varying effect.

But Magons is probably right. At the end of the day, an insult is a means of hurting someone. And so it should probably be avoided altogether.

--Anthony

Note to Self:
Raptor - women who want to control their reproductive processes are sluts.
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.
Never forget what these men are.
“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -Thomas Szasz

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Wednesday, April 11, 2012 7:48 PM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Magons pretty much said it for me, and she even taught me a thing or two--I hadn't put together the thing about victims not being able to defend themselves. Now she's said it, yes, it's very valid. So "what she said". She covered it very well.

As for me, I HATE passive-aggressiveness, to me it comes across as self-victimization and sneaky.

I think you misunderstand the difference between passive-aggressive and what Anthony does. Anthony is sarcastic, sardonic, satirical...it's obvious to everyone what he's doing, and there's a flavor of good-humoroed snarkiness to it. It's easy to tell when he's really angry, but he's never "mean", if you understand what I'm saying.

The Urban Dictionary says:

Quote:
A defense mechanism that allows people who aren't comfortable being openly aggressive get what they want under the guise of still trying to please others. They want their way, but they also want everyone to still like them.

Quote:
It's payback from someone who wants to appear like an innocent victim. It always has a vicious edge but is done to appear innocent or helpless.

Quote:
When someone tries to annoy or hurt someone verbally by saying a put down in a coy or apparent unaware way.

Those are some of the negative ways people view passive-aggressiveness. It's how I perceive it, not a flat judgment, tho' I felt it so repeatedly a while back that I did judge it, in other words, accuse you of it. It's probably a trigger for me because my mom was HUGELY passive-aggressive, so I could well be hypersensitive about perceiving it.

Nonetheless, passive-aggressiveness is considered a negative thing, by psycholotists and most people, I believe.

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Wednesday, April 11, 2012 8:34 PM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht

Hi Magon's, if someone thinks I'm mean they should go ahead and say so, fine with me and makes sense.

Niki, I think Kiki and I found something we agree on. This is so interesting because no one has ever suggested that I'm passive agressive in real life, I guess things really are different on the Internet and those urban definitions, I can't deny that I do that stuff sometimes. All the official definitions of it though don't fit me at all. I'm never late all the time to bother people, I don't pretend like I didn't understand something to bug people and I don't do little mean things just to irritate people.

This is a most interesting and curious turn of events worth further consideration.

I assume you're my pal until you let me know otherwise.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya.

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Thursday, April 12, 2012 3:38 AM

BYTEMITE

To be entirely honest, I wouldn't really call any of the behaviours or attitudes I see from anyone on the board all that passive-aggressive. That's putting faked politeness and indirect insults, which pretty much everyone does, into the same category of destructive mindgames that is passive-aggressiveness.

If someone is actually passive-aggressive, it's generally a lot more dramatic than mere sugar coated snark.

I have some tendencies - I have tendencies from pretty much every mental and personality disorder out there - and I'm willing to admit to it, but at the same time, I think people have to consider that real passive-aggressiveness is more like someone who manipulates events so that you lose your job or fakes incriminating evidence and calls the cops on you or who spreads malicious rumours about you. All out psychological warfare to make your life hell from a toxic person who will be sympathetic to your face and laugh behind your back while doing it.

Heck, even blaming other people for problems and jealous/envy behaviours or perceived victimhood are more slam dunk symptoms of passive-aggressiveness than conversation combat. Yes, it's a part of it, but it's not the whole thing, there has to be actual malicious intent and vindictiveness.

A person who's depressed can be extremely negative and critical and even lash out, but that's depression, not passive-aggressiveness. Similarities, but it doesn't go as far.

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Thursday, April 12, 2012 4:52 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Need some clarification here; you're both talking about what is more "passive-aggressive disorder", which is MUCH more serious and more like what you're describing, and involves procrastination and physicality. It's been bandied about for ages, was IN the DSM, then defined more narrowly there because of complaints, then taken out altogether as a "personality disorder" eventually. It's ancillary to many mental disorders, so I'm glad they took it out...they've gotten to overdiagnosing EVERYTHING! I've got passive-aggressive tendencies, and some OCD, but neither rises to the height of a "disorder".

That's quite different from what I was talking about, which is just what you call "sideways", and more fits the definitions I gave before. It's no biggie, honest to gawd, and it was only for a while there, and only what I perceived, and of course I'm perfectly capable of being wrong.

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Thursday, April 12, 2012 6:25 AM

BYTEMITE

I don't call it sideways.

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Thursday, April 12, 2012 10:21 AM

FREMDFIRMA

Feh, if *I* insult someone, I try not to leave any doubt, and for reasons that may not make sense to y'all I consider it more degrading to not make an insult personal and specific.
Kinda like the difference between getting hit by a random bullet versus one aimed at you.

-F

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Thursday, April 12, 2012 12:23 PM