Obama makes it official: "I'm for same sex marriage." by pizmobeach

I haven't been following this thread that much because I think everyone knows what I think and I don't really want to argue about it.

But Riona asked me to come in here and say that she's had a hard day and she won't catch up on this thread until tomorrow.

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Friday, May 11, 2012 3:43 PM

HERO

Quote:
Originally posted by Storymark:
And then go before THAT to the code of Hammurabi - which was not mythology based.

Funny, you'd think you'd learn something that basic in law school. So, either your education was lacking - making you the "poor misguided one", or you are once again just being a lying sack of go se.

Either way, I don't see why anyone should give a shit what you have to say "hero".

"Goram it kid, let's frak this thing and go home! Engage!"

If you did give a shit you'd look at old Hammi's code because it's one of the first written codes and because it comes up with the novel concept we know as the presumption of innocence.

I wonder where he got the idea? Look up "Hammurabi Code preamble" and you can read Hammi's explanation of how God chose him to be the guy to write down God's laws.

Learned that in undergrad, but I did trace the Presidents Constituitional pardon power to the bible for my general writing requirement (also known as the big ass 80 page paper before you graduate lawschool).

H

Hero...must be right on all of this. ALL of the rest of us are wrong. Ch

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Friday, May 11, 2012 5:58 PM

FREMDFIRMA

Quote:
Originally posted by ANTHONYT:
Hello Niki,

There is no need for her to discuss the majority of Christians in her essay. Her class is full of people wondering if the apocalypse will come sooner due to Obama's statements, or claiming that all morality stems from Christianity, or that the ability to discern the truth of the Bible is encoded in our DNA, and other such unusual positions. Her purpose in writing the essay was to present what she perceived as an authentic Christian worldview to contrast with the incompatible opinions being presented in the classroom.

You might say her essay was a critique of the very same "Christians" you speak of, and a polite suggestion about a better way to follow Jesus.

My wife has been rather shocked at the vehement poison and irrationality being shared by her classmates. I'm afraid that our lives together has given her a rather narrow view of how Christians behave. I do not regularly attend church, so she has not had much exposure to the different flavors of humanity present in the religion. She was not prepared for what I call 'extremists' who are anxious to bring judgment on their fellow man and force compliance with religious doctrine by using the club of law. It is unfortunate that these extremists are the majority in certain regions.

Knowing me has not prepared her for interacting with the broad world of Christiandom. I am possibly not the best representative sample. Particularly, my philosophies seem to be incompatible with the majority Christian view in this great state of Arizona. Living with me and speaking to me over the course of our marriage probably fooled her into believing that most Christians feel as I do about a majority of topics. Now she is getting the broader exposure that is one of the benefits of higher education.

Dude, people like you are prolly the ONLY reason I do not directly advocate returning the favor of the inquisition!

Speaking of nudity - despite being a hedonist, I can be a bit of a prude, but there was one thing that mighta provoked me to it, had it not been in another country...
During a debate about such, some clothing store in europe offered free kit to the first x amount of people who showed up naked, and I thought about it, and figured it would be bloody HI-larious to have shown up at that, with all my most obvious and intricate prosthetics hooked up (which'd mean some of the older ones, but whatever) smoking a big cuban havana cigar and wearing a pair of Raybans, and maybe catch a tan first so all the scars would stand out in contrast.

Man that woulda been a sight to behold, hee hee hee!

-Frem

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Friday, May 11, 2012 8:56 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Hello,

Actually, having no prurient interest in seeing men naked, that probably WOULD be a sight to behold. Not in a circus freak sense, but more of the Mal "Huh" variety.

It also reminds me of a calendar I saw a while back. Put together by a German outfit, it photographed paralympians as artistic nudes.

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I kept a couple of the images just because they were so interesting.

--Anthony

P.S. It seems pasting a link just immediately displays the image. I tried to insert some NSFW space above. Perhaps this does belong in a public nudity thread? ;-)

Note to Self:
Raptor - women who want to control their reproductive processes are sluts.
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.
Never forget what these men are.
“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -Thomas Szasz

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Saturday, May 12, 2012 2:07 AM

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)

Quote:
Originally posted by ANTHONYT:
Hello,

Actually, having no prurient interest in seeing men naked, that probably WOULD be a sight to behold. Not in a circus freak sense, but more of the Mal "Huh" variety.

It also reminds me of a calendar I saw a while back. Put together by a German outfit, it photographed paralympians as artistic nudes.

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Select to view spoiler:

I kept a couple of the images just because they were so interesting.

--Anthony

P.S. It seems pasting a link just immediately displays the image. I tried to insert some NSFW space above. Perhaps this does belong in a public nudity thread? ;-)

Anthony: If you're concerned about NSFW content, try the (spoiler)/(/spoiler) tags (but with brackets instead of parentheses. That should take care of it, although there should really be no need. They're amazing photographs.

ETA: Nope, that didn't work.

"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions

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Saturday, May 12, 2012 2:51 AM

PIZMOBEACH

... fully loaded, safety off...

Quote:
Originally posted by kpo:
Quote:
Originally posted by BLUEHANDEDMENACE:
Slightly new tangent, and no mocking here...serious question.

Can someone who is oppossed to gay marriage please explain to me in what way it affects heterosexuals?

I'm not opposed to gay marriage, but I'll try to answer, because I think there is more to that position than people are giving credit. Gay marriage can, and certainly will, affect heterosexuals (especially those that disapprove of the practice of homosexuality). Not physically of course, but psychologically.

I think that most anti-gay folk can stomach people doing things they don't personally approve of in the privacy of their own homes. But when those practices get officially recognised and sanctioned by a society that they're a part of - that's something else. To the extent that society and government recognises and embraces homosexuality, they feel disenfranchised by society and government. And that's not nothing - if you're on the end of that it feels like an attack.

Thx for that KPO. I think that might be some of it but I think your opinion of the general populace is pretty high too. I don't think this is true: "I think that most anti-gay folk can stomach people doing things they don't personally approve of in the privacy of their own homes." I think "grotty butt stuff" is enough to put people off, and I just think a high percent of heteros think gays are freaks, sub humans, less than, icky, perverts, deviants, pedophiles, on and on, and to include them in their club is to ruin it. Maybe that's what you're saying only in a more polite, sophisticated way?

There's something else and it came up in another thread about Dan Sullivan, "bible bully." The aggressive demeaning of gay males by heterosexual males - that's the start of bullying isn't it? They express their disgust first with abusive language and when they get a taste for it and get past that taboo they get to the physical beating part (they might). There's something basic going on there, a kind of contempt for those males they see as weaker than they are. It's kind of ironic to want to attack the weak. I'm sorry to say that I've noticed it in small doses with myself from time to time, to have an angry response to what I see as weakness in someone else (a close friend), it's like a nature response maybe? I don't want to excuse it, I don't even understand it, but I do notice it.

Scifi movie music + Firefly dialogue clips, 24 hours a day - http://www.scifiradio.com

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Saturday, May 12, 2012 4:59 AM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Mike, I do all those things pretty regularly. There's something wrong, virus or something, because it comes back pretty quickly after I "clean" everything. Costs too much to take it to the "doctor" right now, but I'll have to eventually...

Pizmo: Literally "everything you said" in your last post.

The photos are gorgeous. The wheelchair less so for the subject, to me, 'cuz anybody can sit in a wheelchair, but SHE's gorgeous. I don't think anyone here minds nudity; if they do, they can scroll right past it.

I'm not sure about how same-sex marriage becoming legal will affect the homophobic population ('cuz that's what it is). We'd have to look back at how interracial marriage affected bigots to get even a tiny hint I think. Although it's different, seems to me there are some very basic similarities in how both affect people who fear the "other"--which is what both come down to. Personally, I can't see it making any difference to the institution of marriage whatsoever. Tempest in a teacup, if you take it down to the very bottom line, if it weren't for the paranoia of so many people. JMHO.

Jack: Well, I don't think we would actually agree on much of anything, now we've conversed a bit. As to what Obama's done, it's been far too easy for the right to claim "nothing" or "nothing good", but that's not the fact. According to Politifact, campaign promises he's kept include:

Extend child tax credits and marriage-penalty fixes
Increase minority access to capital
Require economic justification for tax changes
Implement "Women Owned Business" contracting program
Create a consumer-friendly credit card rating system
Establish a credit card bill of rights
Close the "doughnut hole" in Medicare prescription drug plan
Expand the Senior Corps volunteer program
Require health plans to disclose how much of the premium goes to patient care
Increase the Veterans Administration budget to recruit and retain more mental health professionals
Expand Veterans Centers in rural areas
Fully fund the Veterans Administration
Fully fund the Violence Against Women Act
Begin removing combat brigades from Iraq
End the "Stop-loss" program of forcing troops to stay in service beyond their expected commitments
End the abuse of supplemental budgets for war
End the use of torture
Increase funding for local emergency planning
Seek verifiable reductions in nuclear stockpiles
Stand down nuclear forces to be reduced under the Moscow Treaty
Improve relations with Turkey, and its relations with Iraqi Kurds
Grant Americans unrestricted rights to visit family and send money to Cuba
Centralize ethics and lobbying information for voters
Release presidential records
Promote more pre-school education
Reform No Child Left Behind
Recruit math and science degree graduates to the teaching profession
Promote innovative ways to reward good teachers
Improve water quality
Increase funding for national parks and forests
Increase funding for the Land and Water Conservation Fund
Encourage farmers to use more renewable energy and be more energy efficient
Expand Pell grants for low-income students
Pursue a wildfire management plan
Push for enactment of Matthew Shepard Act, which expands hate crime law to include sexual orientation and other factors
Increase funding for progams that conserve lands and habitat for select species
Reform mandatory minimum sentences
Repeal "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" policy
Establish program to convert manufacturing centers into clean technology leaders
Add another Space Shuttle flight
Partner to enhance the potential of the International Space Station
Conduct robust research and development on future space missions
Strengthen the levees in New Orleans
Rebuild schools in New Orleans
Bolster the military's ability to speak different languages
Strengthen antitrust enforcement
Attract more students to science and math
Increase efforts to reduce unintended pregnancy
Overturn Ledbetter vs. Goodyear
Create new financial regulations
Ban lobbyist gifts to executive employees
Sign a "universal" health care bill
Create new criminal penalties for mortgage fraud
Require 10 percent renewable energy by 2012
Raise fuel economy standards
Require more energy-efficient appliances
Create job training programs for clean technologies
Require states to provide incentives for utilities to reduce energy consumption
Invest in public transportation
Share enviromental technology with other countries
Appoint at least one Republican to the cabinet
Fully fund federal contribution to the preservation of the Everglades
Raise the small business investment expensing limit to $250,000 through the end of 2009
Extend unemployment insurance benefits and temporarily suspend taxes on these benefits
Reverse restrictions on stem cell research
Kill bin Laden
Get his daughters a puppy

That's just a sampling...there are nine pages worth at http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/promises/obameter/rulings/prom
ise-kept/?page=1

Okay, you can parse, diss, disagree with, not like, or anything else you want to do with those, or any of the others at PolitiFact's site; I'm just putting them up to say Obama HAS done things he promised to do, and has, in my opinion, done some good things. Not enough, and many are small things, but given the legislature he's been working with, I think achieving ANYTHING is laudatory.

Essentially, we completely part ways at this point. I don't get "questionably fictitious Osama Bin Laden" or "emboldening every special interest group he can to vote against the supposed "rich" white church-goers", I definitely disagree on the latter! Waaay out there for me is "Obama is, in all accuracy, a SOCIOPATH.... and all of that is quickly coming to the surface for anyone with open eyes to see." In my view, Obama has finally (finally!) stopped being quite such a woos and stood up to the GOP, who have been by far the more divisive influence on this country--AS THEY SAID THEY WOULD.

So I guess we will have to part ways; if you were this far "out there" about Bush (who did a few good environmental things, by the way, for all the rest he screwed up), that's no excuse in my opinion. It merely speaks to your character and view of things, so I will respectfully go my own way and wish you well.

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Saturday, May 12, 2012 5:44 AM

HKCAVALIER

Quote:
Originally posted by pizmobeach:
I'm sorry to say that I've noticed it in small doses with myself from time to time, to have an angry response to what I see as weakness in someone else (a close friend), it's like a nature response maybe? I don't want to excuse it, I don't even understand it, but I do notice it.

Hey Pizmo,

I cannot recommend highly enough The Drama of the Gifted Child by Alice Miller. The chapter entitled "Contempt" explains this very lucidly and succinctly. It' a short book--about as long as, say, Strunk and White's The Elements of Style, but it gives you a very solid grounding in this stuff. Oh, and it will blow your mind.

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

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Saturday, May 12, 2012 5:58 AM

Hammurabi wasn't Christian. Or Jewish even. He probably wasn't the first to come up with the concept either; similar ideas about murder, theft, and property ownership are present among early societies who obviously had no contact with the middle eastern cultures that, due to the climate, we have the best preservation of their historical rule of law. Suggests a universal human understanding as opposed to something divinely given.

Basically, before people could live together, they had to not be killing each other. Writing it down would come later.

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Saturday, May 12, 2012 11:53 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
Hammurabi wasn't Christian. Or Jewish even. He probably wasn't the first to come up with the concept either; similar ideas about murder, theft, and property ownership are present among early societies who obviously had no contact with the middle eastern cultures that, due to the climate, we have the best preservation of their historical rule of law. Suggests a universal human understanding as opposed to something divinely given.

Basically, before people could live together, they had to not be killing each other. Writing it down would come later.

And attributing it all to some "god" or another would come even later, when people started asking too many questions. "This comes from the gods! You dare not question it!"

"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions

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Sunday, May 13, 2012 3:43 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by Storymark:

When confronted by truth that doesnt fit the ideology - create a straw man!

Like you and Kwickie do, on a consistent basis ?

I offered up facts. YOU offered up opinion. Learn the difference.

" We're all just folk. " - Mal

" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall

"The world is a dangerous place. Not because of the people who are evil; but because of the people who don't do anything about it." - Albert Einstein

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Sunday, May 13, 2012 4:24 AM

PIZMOBEACH

... fully loaded, safety off...

Quote:
Originally posted by HKCavalier:
I cannot recommend highly enough The Drama of the Gifted Child by Alice Miller. The chapter entitled "Contempt" explains this very lucidly and succinctly. It' a short book--about as long as, say, Strunk and White's The Elements of Style, but it gives you a very solid grounding in this stuff. Oh, and it will blow your mind.

HKCavalier

I've seen Frem mentioning her too - on my list, thx.

Scifi movie music + Firefly dialogue clips, 24 hours a day - http://www.scifiradio.com

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Sunday, May 13, 2012 5:41 AM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

That book is often referred to people with DID, as well as depressives and bipolars. Excellent book.

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Sunday, May 13, 2012 5:44 AM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Quote:
Like you and Kwickie do, on a consistent basis ?

I offered up facts. YOU offered up opinion. Learn the difference.

You know, I've always found that statement confusing; he uses it often, so this time I went back and checked. All I found was:

Quote:
Wordsmithing and spin are key w/ the Left.

See, Obama 'evolved' to arrive at this decision.

He didn't 'flip-flop'. No. Even though he was FOR gay marriage, before he was against it, before he was for it. Again.

He 'evolved' , he didn't 'flip-flop'.

Quote:
Note, I said THIS decision.

But thanks for proving my point. Again.

Quote:
So, kinda like a teen age boy, who keeps asking his g/f do do something she'd rather not do, but he keeps asking anyway, over and over, until she finally gives in and says yes ?

Hmmm...

Quote:
Marriage is defined as 1 man & 1 woman. Been that way for 1000's of years. Suddenly NOT supporting that doesn't make anyone " anti- gay ".

Quote:
A raven or owl to order pizza? Now who lives in fantasy land?

Quote:
I think that says it all, right there.

Quote:
Wrong, Kwickie. While there was polygamy in the community, Mitt's granddad didn't himself engage in it.

As for those who had multiple wives, that'd be Barry's dad, Barry Sr.

Quote:
And for the record, Rush hates gays SOOOOOOOOOO much, that he actually had one, Elton John, perform at his wedding.

What a hate monger!

One cite, about Obama's ancestors. Damn, silly me! I just assumed the was telling the truth when he said that, but now I realize he's using the right-wing tactic: Lying, and a bunch of snarks and ridculous statements. Good to know; now I'll remember that in future.

Trolling. Then lying about it. Gotcha.

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Sunday, May 13, 2012 5:53 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!

I'm neither lying or trolling Niki. It's called having a conversation, adding my 2 cents. But apparently, you have nothing else better to do than to sift through and take quotes, out of context, and then line them all up, one after another, as if you're somehow displaying some great revelation.

Go walk your dogs, or something. Do something constructive /w your time.

" We're all just folk. " - Mal

" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall

"The world is a dangerous place. Not because of the people who are evil; but because of the people who don't do anything about it." - Albert Einstein

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Sunday, May 13, 2012 8:12 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
Quote:
Originally posted by Storymark:

When confronted by truth that doesnt fit the ideology - create a straw man!

Like you and Kwickie do, on a consistent basis ?

I offered up facts. YOU offered up opinion. Learn the difference.

What "facts" did you offer? You claimed marriage has been defined as 1 man/1 woman "for thousands of years", but you were very quickly shown how incorrect that idea is. Hell, the idea in western culture of "1 man/1 woman" defining marriage isn't even as old as this country. If it were, America wouldn't have had to specifically outlaw bigamy (and outlaw Romney's family in the process...)

"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions

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Sunday, May 13, 2012 8:15 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:

I'm neither lying or trolling Niki. It's called having a conversation, adding my 2 cents. But apparently, you have nothing else better to do than to sift through and take quotes, out of context, and then line them all up, one after another, as if you're somehow displaying some great revelation.

Go walk your dogs, or something. Do something constructive /w your time.

So are you offering your 2 cents, or are you offering "facts"?

You complain that Story and I only offer "opinion", yet you claim that you yourself are only offering the same.

Do you imagine yourself some kind of final arbiter of who is allowed to offer an opinion, or what constitutes a fact?

You offer opinion and claim it's having a conversation. Others offer opinion, and you claim they're trolling. Seems you're at least as guilty of trolling as those you accuse.

"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions

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Sunday, May 13, 2012 7:02 PM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht

Okay.Niki thanks for those historical anecdotes. I don't really think something Nero did is something our society should aspire to. That being said you mention some examples of everyday people getting "married". I appreciate you looking those up. It looks like it happened in isolated incidents but it doesn't look like a widespread practice, not widespread enough for a country to officially recognize it.

As far as the Biblical accounts go. If it were only mentioned once or twice in the "stoning" section I'd probably not really notice it. BTW I think those rules, as bizarre as they seem to us, were in there for the purpose of societal order and seperating the Jews from others in the area. I think that people probably didn't always stone when it was suggested, as in not always practiced even though it was written down as a rule.

So if it were just mentioned once or twice I wouldn't probably care, but its mentioned many times, not just in the Old Testament either. Again if it were only mentioned in passing once in the New Testament, like some things, I might have just taken it as a cultural thing and not cared, but its notably spoken against, there's a whole chapter about it so I can't ignore it. Niki asked me about this and thus the lengthy explanation.

I wonder if maybe the government has no business being involved in marriage anyways. Maybe everyone who wants to share stuff should get a Sharingstuff license and if they want to marry they should do it according to their beliefs and their own customs. Maybe that would solve the problem and everyone would be happier.

I assume you're my pal until you let me know otherwise.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya.

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Monday, May 14, 2012 3:32 AM

CAVETROLL

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
Here's "thousands of years" of "traditional marriage" according to the bible:

Neat chart, but it excluded polyandry. One wife, several husbands.

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Monday, May 14, 2012 4:39 AM

That one's pretty rare. Sig or Magons could tell you the cultures that currently practice polyandry, I only know that pre-historic picts and celts might have, and that some of the tribes in the Amazon think that a kid can have multiple fathers.

In any case, I think the point of that poster was the biblical take on marriage. I don't recall any women mentioned in the bible with multiple relationships that were considered marriage - mostly they were just considered adulterous.

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Monday, May 14, 2012 5:09 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
Quote:
Originally posted by Storymark:

When confronted by truth that doesnt fit the ideology - create a straw man!

Like you and Kwickie do, on a consistent basis ?

I offered up facts. YOU offered up opinion. Learn the difference.

What "facts" did you offer? You claimed marriage has been defined as 1 man/1 woman "for thousands of years", but you were very quickly shown how incorrect that idea is. Hell, the idea in western culture of "1 man/1 woman" defining marriage isn't even as old as this country. If it were, America wouldn't have had to specifically outlaw bigamy (and outlaw Romney's family in the process...)

"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions

You're talking to the RapTard - it's only a fact if he agrees with it.

I think Im finally reaching the point where Im done even making fun of him. His zealotry has reached an apex that's not worth even mockery.

"Goram it kid, let's frak this thing and go home! Engage!"

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Monday, May 14, 2012 6:04 AM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

I agree, Story. Just a waste of your time; he's impervious, and enjoys the attention. Nothing more.

Okay, as to " sift through and take quotes, out of context, and then line them all up, one after another, as if you're somehow displaying some great revelation." Nope; you STATED you had offered "facts", so I went back to see if you had. My point was you HADN'T offered any facts whatsoever; by claiming you had, you were lying. Doesn't matter whether they were taken "out of context" or not, that represented everything you had offered in this thread, and among them were no facts. It's a valid point.

As to doing something constructive, that's a huge laugh. From a guy who sits around for heaven knows how long, snarking pointedly at people and outright lying, that's pretty pathetic! I come here to discuss and debate, I make points backed up by ACTUAL facts as well as my opinions, and I spend a microscopic amount of my posting snarking at people, especially compared to you. In other words, what I do here is communicate, which I enjoy spending a couple of hours in the morning doing; you seem to spend virtually ALL your time here making right-wing talking points and snarking, with no effort whatsoever expended in communicating. What I do is constructive, in that it offers facts, figures and valid points. What you do...? Make outrageous statements and snark incessantly, apparently in an effort to get attention.

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Monday, May 14, 2012 6:32 AM

Well... I think that may depend on whether anyone here thinks that it's constructive to have a right-wing counterpoint. I'm not about to tell people whether they have a point or not, but I think that AURaptor does try to express that viewpoint.

Actually, I'd be interested in stepping away from the religious debate, and arguments from tradition, and personal gut-reaction and revulsion, and ask what secular reasons are there against gay marriage? Economics or population-wise and such.

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Monday, May 14, 2012 6:50 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
Well... I think that may depend on whether anyone here thinks that it's constructive to have a right-wing counterpoint. I'm not about to tell people whether they have a point or not, but I think that AURaptor does try to express that viewpoint.

Im fine with a right wing viewpoint - but not if they are consistently going to lie like Rappy.

"Goram it kid, let's frak this thing and go home! Engage!"

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Monday, May 14, 2012 8:54 AM

I'm not sure he thinks he's lying.

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Monday, May 14, 2012 9:09 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
I'm not sure he thinks he's lying.

Fair enough. But the crazy rarely think they're crazy - doesn't mean Im going to sit an listen to their rants.

And my definition of lie is independent of his... conviction. When facts are posted, and he declares they don't count, then posts pure opinion, and states it as fact.... yeah, kinda falls into that crazy category for me.

Like PN - he may have some truth in there - but its bogged down by so much outright guano - I just can't take it remotely seriously.

"Goram it kid, let's frak this thing and go home! Engage!"

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Monday, May 14, 2012 9:19 AM

M52NICKERSON

DALEK!

Quote:
Originally posted by RionaEire:
I wonder if maybe the government has no business being involved in marriage anyways. Maybe everyone who wants to share stuff should get a Sharingstuff license and if they want to marry they should do it according to their beliefs and their own customs. Maybe that would solve the problem and everyone would be happier.

That is merely an argument in semantics. Religion does not own the word marriage.

Also what whole chapter in the bible is against homosexuality. Now before you say Sodom and Gomorrah you should know that most Jewish scholars believe that story is about overall sin and the treatment of guests and not about homosexuality.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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Monday, May 14, 2012 9:22 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
I'm not sure he thinks he's lying.

Meanwhile - he posts these two statements in another thread:

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
Obama pushed a girl to the ground.

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
I DON'T know he pushed that little girl down.

Care to reconsider your opinion there...?

"Goram it kid, let's frak this thing and go home! Engage!"

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Monday, May 14, 2012 9:40 AM

Everyone says things they don't mean or which are sometimes inconsistent in an argument. Doesn't follow they think they're lying. I'm almost certain that AURaptor believes everything he says without qualification.

I concede however that many arguments with AURaptor seem to get heated, and sometimes there are invectives.

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Monday, May 14, 2012 1:48 PM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Can we get off discussions of Raptor, pretty please? He's got three threads going at the minute focused on him; this last exchange makes it four. Think I'm going to give up looking for a thread worth reading; maybe tomorrow will make more sense here. Shees...

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Monday, May 14, 2012 2:01 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
Everyone says things they don't mean or which are sometimes inconsistent in an argument. Doesn't follow they think they're lying. I'm almost certain that AURaptor believes everything he says without qualification.

I concede however that many arguments with AURaptor seem to get heated, and sometimes there are invectives.

He MADE UP the "shoved to the ground" part out of whole cloth.

Maybe you have a much, much higher bar for what is a lie.

But yes, Im with Nikki - that POS doesn't deserve to be the topic any longer.

"Goram it kid, let's frak this thing and go home! Engage!"

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Monday, May 14, 2012 3:39 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by CaveTroll:
Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
Here's "thousands of years" of "traditional marriage" according to the bible:

Neat chart, but it excluded polyandry. One wife, several husbands.

Got a biblical reference for it? You may have missed that little theme on the chart; it's the reason why that whole myth of "1 man/1 woman" is such pure BS. Even the bible says it's bullshit.

"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions

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Monday, May 14, 2012 3:51 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by RionaEire:

I wonder if maybe the government has no business being involved in marriage anyways. Maybe everyone who wants to share stuff should get a Sharingstuff license and if they want to marry they should do it according to their beliefs and their own customs. Maybe that would solve the problem and everyone would be happier.

Tell ya what I'll do; I'll compromise. We'll say people are BIBLICALLY married if they do it in a church - and no church has to do it at all if they don't want. We'll say they're LEGALLY married if they do it in a government office, like the Justice of the Peace or some such.

And here's the compromise: In keeping with separation of church and state, you can only take tax breaks, deductions, allowances, benefits, etc., if you're LEGALLY married. If you're BIBLICALLY married (in a church, by a priest), government has no business in it. And vice-versa. Churches don't have to recognize any LEGAL marriages, and governments don't have to recognize any BIBLICAL marriages.

Sound like a fair compromise? You get to keep your religious beliefs, and gay folks get to have the benefits of being married without offending the churches.

"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions

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Monday, May 14, 2012 8:36 PM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht

The chapter I'm thinking of wasn't that, though that definitely isn't how one should treat guests, :) I was thinking more of Romans 1, sure other stuff is in there too, but its pretty blatently referenced in a heavy handed sort of way, as in this is the part everyone notices in there. Since you wondered.

I think maybe I'll just get married my own way if this all happens. And my husband and I will get a civil union license with the government instead. Who knows.

I still like the idea of Sharingstuff, no sex required.

I assume you're my pal until you let me know otherwise.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya.

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Tuesday, May 15, 2012 3:41 AM

CAVETROLL

Oops, missed the "biblical" part. Just being pedantic is all.

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Tuesday, May 15, 2012 4:13 AM

Storymark: okay, fair enough.

Leviticus has a line about homosexuality, but at the same time there's a lot in Leviticus that appears to be "you will behave like this so you can be identified as ours from among our enemies," kinda like the rules about not visiting temple prostitutes, what men and women should wear.

In that context the implication is almost something like "the greeks and romans are jerks, don't do as they do."

A similar case is made in Romans (obviously). Though that one is less about the outright homosexuality, and more about lewd artwork.

Quote:
I still like the idea of Sharingstuff, no sex required.

Unless there is. *creepy wink!*

But yeah, it's a good idea. There's more bound up in the idea of marriage than just whether people have kids, which may or not be a possibility depending on the couple. There's also the idea of trusting someone enough to put your lives in their hands, which is why doctors allow spouses to make decisions.

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Tuesday, May 15, 2012 2:25 PM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht

Yeah if someone gets a Sharingstuff license with someone they might be having sex, but they might not be, that's their business and any two people of any connection could get one, sex optional but not required for obtaining the

I assume you're my pal until you let me know otherwise.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya.

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Tuesday, May 15, 2012 3:41 PM

6IXSTRINGJACK

Quote:
Originally posted by Niki2:
Jack: Well, I don't think we would actually agree on much of anything, now we've conversed a bit. As to what Obama's done, it's been far too easy for the right to claim "nothing" or "nothing good", but that's not the fact. According to Politifact, campaign promises he's kept include:

Extend child tax credits and marriage-penalty fixes
Increase minority access to capital
Require economic justification for tax changes
Implement "Women Owned Business" contracting program
Create a consumer-friendly credit card rating system
Establish a credit card bill of rights
Close the "doughnut hole" in Medicare prescription drug plan
Expand the Senior Corps volunteer program
Require health plans to disclose how much of the premium goes to patient care
Increase the Veterans Administration budget to recruit and retain more mental health professionals
Expand Veterans Centers in rural areas
Fully fund the Veterans Administration
Fully fund the Violence Against Women Act
Begin removing combat brigades from Iraq
End the "Stop-loss" program of forcing troops to stay in service beyond their expected commitments
End the abuse of supplemental budgets for war
End the use of torture
Increase funding for local emergency planning
Seek verifiable reductions in nuclear stockpiles
Stand down nuclear forces to be reduced under the Moscow Treaty
Improve relations with Turkey, and its relations with Iraqi Kurds
Grant Americans unrestricted rights to visit family and send money to Cuba
Centralize ethics and lobbying information for voters
Release presidential records
Promote more pre-school education
Reform No Child Left Behind
Recruit math and science degree graduates to the teaching profession
Promote innovative ways to reward good teachers
Improve water quality
Increase funding for national parks and forests
Increase funding for the Land and Water Conservation Fund
Encourage farmers to use more renewable energy and be more energy efficient
Expand Pell grants for low-income students
Pursue a wildfire management plan
Push for enactment of Matthew Shepard Act, which expands hate crime law to include sexual orientation and other factors
Increase funding for progams that conserve lands and habitat for select species
Reform mandatory minimum sentences
Repeal "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" policy
Establish program to convert manufacturing centers into clean technology leaders
Add another Space Shuttle flight
Partner to enhance the potential of the International Space Station
Conduct robust research and development on future space missions
Strengthen the levees in New Orleans
Rebuild schools in New Orleans
Bolster the military's ability to speak different languages
Strengthen antitrust enforcement
Attract more students to science and math
Increase efforts to reduce unintended pregnancy
Overturn Ledbetter vs. Goodyear
Create new financial regulations
Ban lobbyist gifts to executive employees
Sign a "universal" health care bill
Create new criminal penalties for mortgage fraud
Require 10 percent renewable energy by 2012
Raise fuel economy standards
Require more energy-efficient appliances
Create job training programs for clean technologies
Require states to provide incentives for utilities to reduce energy consumption
Invest in public transportation
Share enviromental technology with other countries
Appoint at least one Republican to the cabinet
Fully fund federal contribution to the preservation of the Everglades
Raise the small business investment expensing limit to $250,000 through the end of 2009
Extend unemployment insurance benefits and temporarily suspend taxes on these benefits
Reverse restrictions on stem cell research
Kill bin Laden
Get his daughters a puppy

That's just a sampling...there are nine pages worth at http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/promises/obameter/rulings/prom
ise-kept/?page=1

What should be mentioned first-and-foremost in reply is that nearly all of these things mentioned cost a lot of taxpayer dollars. Not just ours, of course, but things that our children's children will be paying for. Before you hate me on that point, I said the same thing of a lot of things that Bush did as well.

The second thing that could cover a lot of those issues is either A) they're just BS "talking points" and/or B) they're so vague they really could mean anything.

That being said, I think I'd like to take this oppurtunity to point out my opinons of some of these "great" things Obama has done.

1. Extend child tax credits and marriage-penalty fixes

Easy to do when cigarettes are taxed so heavy and a LARGE portion of children's welfare these days supposedly comes from those taxes (what does that matter when we're running a 1.3 trillion dollar a year deficit to fund all this stuff anyhow. As for the "marriage penalty", what about the HUGELY disproportionate "single penalty". When I'm actually working, I'm just one income. Yet I have to pay the same property taxes a married couple pays. I don't get crap in income tax breaks that married couples get, especially with kids. Yada... yada... yada....

2. Increase minority access to capital

Actually, I think that Bush did this first. Isn't this what largely caused the housing bubble in the first place? Sure, it's great that minorities can buy a house, but if they can't pay the ARM loans with their shitty jobs when they didn't read the fine print on the contract..........

3. Require economic justification for tax changes

What does this even mean???? Being on the brunt end of "fuck you for smoking, everyone knows it's bad so we can tax it 80 bucks a carton" for the last 5 or so years, this is just a mindless talking point across the board.

4. Create a consumer-friendly credit card rating system

What does this mean? We were entitled to 3 free credit reports during Bush. Also, during Bush's reign I had only a 690 Trans-Union score. Today, after 4 years of Obama, my credit rating is actually a staggering 795. Overall, after nearly 12 years of our president's ruining the country for all of us, I'm actually doing much better than in 2000.

I guess that's only because I don't know what I'm talking about though, right?

4 & 5. Fully fund the Veterans Administration
Fully fund the Violence Against Women Act

With what??? Oh yeah.... Chinese currency, since we have a huge deficit and can't afford to even partially fund anything.

6. Begin removing combat brigades from Iraq

It's about damn time. I remember speeches in 2007 that told us this was the first thing he'd do.

7. Grant Americans unrestricted rights to visit family and send money to Cuba

This is the first I've heard of this, although I'm not refuting it. If it's so, I'll totally give you a nod for that one.

8. Reform No Child Left Behind

This doesn't mean anything. The original act has done nothing but make school dumb enough so that anybody could pass and a high-school degree means nothing. Without a VERY elaborate discussion about why this is any better, I'm still convinced it should just be scrapped altogether.

9, 10 & 11.... Add another Space Shuttle flight
Partner to enhance the potential of the International Space Station
Conduct robust research and development on future space missions

Wait... what? Didn't space exploration all but die on Obama's watch?

12. Kill bin Laden

Right. And the grainy footage proved once and for all that the imaginary boogey man the Bush Administration dreamed up and had a crack team of artists photoshop a picture of Scottie Pippen to look like he was Middle Eastern is finally dead. Hallelujah!!!!!

That means the war is over.... right guys?

13. Get his daughters a puppy

At least he took the common ground here and didn't buy them both a Black Stallion and feed and stable them on taxpayer dollars. I'll give him credit for that.

As for the rest, I either didn't know enough to post at all, I didn't care about the issue whatsoever, or I was just omitting because I didn't want to make this reply longer than it already inevitably would be.

Regards,
6

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Tuesday, May 15, 2012 4:43 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by RionaEire:

I still like the idea of Sharingstuff, no sex required.

They already have that. It's called "marriage". Ask most men - you share all your stuff, and there's no sex!

Bah-dum-DUMM!

Mostly, though, you don't really share your stuff. If you're the man, your stuff gets moved into the garage. And then one day your wife asks you why you spend so much time in the garage, and you forget yourself for a minute and let the real answer out: "Because that's where all my stuff is. I'm just visiting it and remembering when it used to be inside."

And then you are invited to start sleeping in the garage...

I kid, of course.

"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions

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Tuesday, May 15, 2012 6:30 PM

6IXSTRINGJACK

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
They already have that. It's called "marriage". Ask most men - you share all your stuff, and there's no sex! Bah-dum-DUMM!

Mostly, though, you don't really share your stuff. If you're the man, your stuff gets moved into the garage. And then one day your wife asks you why you spend so much time in the garage, and you forget yourself for a minute and let the real answer out: "Because that's where all my stuff is. I'm just visiting it and remembering when it used to be inside."

And then you are invited to start sleeping in the garage...

I kid, of course.

Heh... and so, that's why I choose to be single....

Who needs a man-cave to hide away from wife and kinds when your entire house, including the "master bath" is part of your domain?

I'm not saying I'll never get married, but the amount of "hand" I'm building up here is going to take decades worth of psycological/sexual breakdown to give up by your "average" woman.

Since VS Angel Adrina Lima isn't going to be knocking down my door anytime soon, I'm totally comfortable with that timeline

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Wednesday, May 16, 2012 6:51 AM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

STILL looking for that rational, viable answer as to why gays shouldn't be allowed to marry, and how it would negatively affect hetero marriage. Probably not going to get one, but hey, doesn't hurt to ask!

Jack, I agree to disagree.

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Wednesday, May 16, 2012 8:00 AM