REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Romney on class size

POSTED BY: NIKI2
UPDATED: Wednesday, May 30, 2012 07:00
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Sunday, May 27, 2012 7:26 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Quote:

Democratic Mayor Michael Nutter of Philadelphia, where Romney stopped the day prior to talk with teachers at a charter school, leveled heavy charges at the candidate, saying his policies were "out of touch," "misguided" and "backwards."

"He certainly left an impression here in the city that he has no idea what he's talking about when it comes to education," Nutter said on a conference call with reporters Friday organized by the campaign.

The mayor also described Romney's meeting in Philly as a "drive-by visit" due to its short length.

When Romney stopped at a local school Thursday, he pointed to studies that countered common thought that smaller class sizes contributed to increased learning for students.

He cited a 2007 analysis by the McKinsey Global Institute that argues "evidence suggests that, except at the very early grades, class size reduction does not have much impact on student outcomes," based on the 112 studies the group examined for the report.

"Just getting smaller classrooms didn't seem to be the key," Romney said.

Teachers attending the roundtable Thursday morning quickly fired back, arguing smaller class sizes are always preferable to larger ones.

Piling on, Obama campaign officials on Friday pointed to other studies, namely the widely-cited Project STAR study in Tennessee, that concluded smaller student-to-teacher ratios benefited student learning.

Nutter, going further, argued one doesn't even need to look to studies on this issue, saying the concept should be common sense.

"Any parent knows that's easier to keep track of two kids as opposed to 10," he said. "Some of this is just common sense, so let us not get so sophisticated that we can't keep track of what is plainly evident right in front of us."

Earlier this week Romney laid out his education plan, which calls for dramatically expanding school choice for low-income and disabled children by using a voucher-type system. http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2012/05/25/team-obama-expands-edu
cation-offense-against-romney/

Nice spin attempt: NOBODY is saying teacher quality doesn't have a huge impact on education, ut framing it as if Obama HAS, and smaller class sizes is his answer, as if it's one or the other. It a cute dodge if you don't look too closely. I'm glad they called him on it--not that it will do any good to his lying...

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Sunday, May 27, 2012 7:29 AM

WHOZIT

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Sunday, May 27, 2012 11:14 AM

OONJERAH


Unrelated Headlines:

"Romney running mate search enters audition phase"

"Paul Ryan Says Mitt Romney Will ‘Save This Country’"

"Romney campaign sticks with Trump, despite birther comments"

He lies consistently, and even his fans know it. Does this mean that honesty
is irrelevant to them, and his main qualification is that he's not Obama?

Could mean I'm Alice in Wonderland having a very long, bad dream.

=========================
I am convinced that life is 10% what happens to me and 90% of how I react to it. ~Charles R Swindoll

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Sunday, May 27, 2012 11:32 AM

NEWOLDBROWNCOAT


Quote:

Originally posted by Oonjerah:

He lies consistently, and even his fans know it. Does this mean that honesty
is irrelevant to them, and his main qualification is that he's not Obama?



or that he's in their pocket for some reason...

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Sunday, May 27, 2012 11:44 AM

MAGONSDAUGHTER


The issue of smaller class sizes is an ongoing debate in education. I guess its how much you are trying to vary them. I am not sure of the sizes in the US. Around 24 - 28 is normal here. My son had 30 one year in his, and still had a good year. I think sometimes its better to have a second adult present, a teachers aide, than have small sizes, although I wouldn't want any more than 30 ever.

http://economix.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/09/11/class-size-around-the-wor
ld
/

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Monday, May 28, 2012 4:15 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Let's see. The Democratic mayor of Philadelphia criticizes the Republican presidential candidate? Really?

And when Pres. Obama hits several campaign stops a day, will Mayor Nutting call them "drive-by visits"?

Teachers like smaller class sizes? Maybe because smaller classes equals less work and more teachers hired?




And:

Quote:

Nutter, going further, argued one doesn't even need to look to studies on this issue, saying the concept should be common sense.

"Any parent knows that's easier to keep track of two kids as opposed to 10," he said. "Some of this is just common sense, so let us not get so sophisticated that we can't keep track of what is plainly evident right in front of us."



So. Democrats propose two-child class size. "Just common sense" says Philly Mayor.


Well, two-kid classes (or even ten-kid) would sure solve the unemployment problem. We could hire another 35 million (or 4.5 million teachers) at a cost of $1.4 trillion a year (or $180 billion) plus the extra space for more classrooms.



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Monday, May 28, 2012 5:03 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Quote:

Originally posted by Geezer:


And:

Quote:

Nutter, going further, argued one doesn't even need to look to studies on this issue, saying the concept should be common sense.

"Any parent knows that's easier to keep track of two kids as opposed to 10," he said. "Some of this is just common sense, so let us not get so sophisticated that we can't keep track of what is plainly evident right in front of us."



So. Democrats propose two-child class size. "Just common sense" says Philly Mayor.


Well, two-kid classes (or even ten-kid) would sure solve the unemployment problem. We could hire another 35 million (or 4.5 million teachers) at a cost of $1.4 trillion a year (or $180 billion) plus the extra space for more classrooms.





Hello,

I am confused about your opposition to the concept, Geezer. Obviously no one is advocating class sizes of 2 persons. This is an analogy used to make a point in a way that the average parent can understand.

But more to the point, do you believe that small class sizes are not beneficial? All things being equal, would you prefer your child to be in a class of 20 or 40?

--Anthony






Note to Self:
Raptor - women who want to control their reproductive processes are sluts.
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.
Never forget what these men are.
“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -Thomas Szasz

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Monday, May 28, 2012 8:29 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Originally posted by ANTHONYT:
I am confused about your opposition to the concept, Geezer. Obviously no one is advocating class sizes of 2 persons. This is an analogy used to make a point in a way that the average parent can understand.

But more to the point, do you believe that small class sizes are not beneficial? All things being equal, would you prefer your child to be in a class of 20 or 40?




I'm not particularly opposed to the concept of smaller class sizes, although cursory review finds studies going both ways. Smaller class size does tend to require more money, so that's also a consideration. I suppose it depends on how small you want to go. As of 2009, average class sizes were around 23 for primary and a bit more than 24 for secondary. Some countries that apparently do better in education have larger class sizes, and some smaller. See here:
http://economix.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/09/11/class-size-around-the-wor
ld
/


My actual problem is with taking the word of a Democratic politician about the position of a Republican candidate as anything other than political propaganda (or vice versa).

Further, my problem is with folks posting comments by pretty much any political figure or partisan - office holder, talking head, or blogger - about the opposing party's candidates as though they were absolute fact.

Since most of the folks that do such here seem to be posting such stuff that's opposing Republicans, I tend to have more problems with them.

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Monday, May 28, 2012 9:04 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Yes, extrapolating the comment to mean anyone is actually proposing two-person class sizes is the height of idiocy.

As to class sizes as a determinator of education quality, obviously it's not the only one. Some countries have larger class sizes but better education results; some of this is cultural, as mentioned in the link you posted:
Quote:

Note that some of the countries with some of the world’s highest achieving student bodies — like Korea and Japan — have the biggest class sizes. Perhaps this has to do with cultural differences; societies with Confucian roots may have stricter hierarchies within the classroom, so perhaps it’s easier (or more expected) for a single teacher to manage a bigger group of students.
It's obvious class size isn't the only factor, but I don't see increasing it as being beneficial in our society.
Quote:

Teachers like smaller class sizes? Maybe because smaller classes equals less work and more teachers hired?
Equally idiotic, if you know anything about good teachers. For example:
Quote:

For the first five years of my working life, I was a secondary school teacher. I had a three-year degree and a one-year Diploma of Education. I chose that vocation during my senior high school days principally because I wanted to teach, wanted to play a part in making life good for the following generation. Sure, the money was good enough, but that was a secondary consideration, and looking back I would have done it even if paid a bit less.

I lasted five years (well, three fulfilling ones to be exact – I struggled in the final two). Gradually the job turned into being a classroom manager-cum-policeman. This affected my health and dulled my enthusiasm for the job.

I think I was quite a good teacher. The kids on average seemed to like me and I got pretty reasonable results from my senior classes. I took part in lots of extra-curricular activities, and at least until weariness began to take over, I put a lot of effort into preparing what I hoped would be interesting classes.

After a few years of huge and dedicated effort, I gave up because it was just too hard, with the large classes, to do good teaching while managing the kids who didn’t want to be there. And here’s the thing: if I had been paid another 20% in salary to stay on, I would have let it pass. It just wasn’t worth the stress and the effect it was having on the rest of my life. I had skills learned in my degree and had no trouble finding a new career that paid a similar amount but was far less wearying.

Another observation. The teachers at that first school were a mixed bunch. Some were career teachers who may have found difficulty doing some other jobs so they just stayed on doing their best but holding back enough for them to not be affected by the stress and workload. They had a way of teaching that got by, had pretty fixed classroom plans, and remained somewhat emotionally aloof. For them, the remuneration they got was probably as good as they would get anywhere because they were not top-notch in the creativity and passion stakes, so wouldn’t need to be diverted from looking for other jobs.

And there were other teachers who (as I had intended to do) immersed themselves into doing the best possible job for their students. The dedicated ones, who possibly unlike me had the energy and inner creativity to be excellent, interesting teachers who could stay the course. Had they been paid more due to their excellence, I’m sure they would have taken it gladly. But I doubt that any of them would have tried any harder as a result, because they were already doing great work. For them, pay was an important but secondary driver.

The sort of creative, passionate and energetic teachers we want are motivated generally by their love of what they are doing.... And their main de-motivator is likely to be having to do more classroom policing as their class sizes increase. These people are the ones most likely to leave rather that sign up, because they have key personal skills that are suitable for other less stressful and more creative careers. http://imaybewrongbutnz.com/2012/05/17/teachers-prefer-smaller-classes
-to-greater-pay
/




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Monday, May 28, 2012 10:08 AM

FREMDFIRMA



Nice bit of sophistry there, Geeze...
Also.
Quote:

Originally posted by Geezer:
My actual problem is with taking the word of a Democratic politician about the position of a Republican candidate as anything other than political propaganda (or vice versa).


Really ?
Ya sure don't seem to have a "problem" with it when YOU do it.

That said - a lotta times it ain't even the money so much as problems of corruption, inefficiency and trying to patch a model so broken that just dumping money into it is muchlike trying to fill a sieve, add-more-money is more often than not as dysfunctional a solution as a bandaid on a bullet wound, and this isn't an issue which can be encapsulated in a few feelgood soundbites, neither.
There's also the problems with where that money winds up when it's dumped in, case in point.
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/05/22/education/scholarship-funds-meant-fo
r-needy-benefit-private-schools.html


Nor do smaller class sizes by and of themselves solve the problem - the charter schools around here are sinking like a rock and one has recently had their charter outright revoked, while the freeschools have waiting lists - and while dependant on how much structure a child needs, cause some kids need more structure to cling to, for them that down the freeschools seem to be doing a damned good job of education overall.
So it's a far more complicated problem.

Far as anything Romney has to say about it though, one can imagine I place no great stock in a man who thinks proper discipline includes shit that would be prosecuteable if you did it to an adult, and would not want him ever anywhere near decisions about the health, education and treatment of young people - oh hell no.

-Frem

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Monday, May 28, 2012 10:49 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Originally posted by FREMDFIRMA:

Nice bit of sophistry there, Geeze...
Also.
Quote:

Originally posted by Geezer:
My actual problem is with taking the word of a Democratic politician about the position of a Republican candidate as anything other than political propaganda (or vice versa).


Really ?
Ya sure don't seem to have a "problem" with it when YOU do it.



Cites?

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Monday, May 28, 2012 3:01 PM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht


When I was a little girl we had about 25 kids in each class at my primary school, a perfect amount, enough to make sure everyone could find friends but not too many kids for the teacher to handle. Now adays my little brother has 34 kids in his class this year, and then they complain about how he can't focus and _we need to do something about it. My mother doesn't seem to be as bothered about this as I am, I feel he'd do better in a smaller class.

I assume you're my pal until you let me know otherwise.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya.

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Monday, May 28, 2012 3:41 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.



Quote:

Originally posted by Geezer:
My actual problem is with taking the word of a Democratic politician about the position of a Republican candidate as anything other than political propaganda (or vice versa ).

Originally posted by Kwicko:
Really ?
Ya sure don't seem to have a "problem" with it when YOU do it.

Originally posted by Geezer:
Cites?



Well that was a fun challenge. Here are a whole bunch of people talking about racism and here you are telling them they're making it about race.
http://fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=51730&mid=89703
5#897035


Quote:

Originally posted by Geezer:

Well, the first thread about the Trayvon Martin shooting was titled:

Quote:
"Racism is dead in America." Bullshit
http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=51371
and it ran to six pages.

Some quotes:

"Nobody's posted about this one, perhaps because it represents a common enough occurrence that we don't pay much attention. But I've been following it, and it's not only outrageous, it's another example of the fact that racism isn't only alive and well in America, it's allowed."

"This is terrible.

Even if we imagine that the perpetrator is a hard-core racist, I find the story shocking."

"And, not to distract from the article, on the broader topic of this thread - if racism was really dead - this wouldn't be a hot selling bumper sticker:"


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Tuesday, May 29, 2012 2:02 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Originally posted by 1kiki:

Quote:

Originally posted by Geezer:
My actual problem is with taking the word of a Democratic politician about the position of a Republican candidate as anything other than political propaganda (or vice versa ).

Originally posted by Kwicko:
Really ?
Ya sure don't seem to have a "problem" with it when YOU do it.

Originally posted by Geezer:
Cites?



Well that was a fun challenge. Here are a whole bunch of people talking about racism and here you are telling them they're making it about race.
http://fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=51730&mid=89703
5#897035





So where in this was I "taking the word of a Democratic politician about the position of a Republican candidate"? Or even "taking the word of a Republican politician about the position of a Democratic candidate"?

Guess I also have a problem with folks who can't read.

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Tuesday, May 29, 2012 2:23 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:
Yes, extrapolating the comment to mean anyone is actually proposing two-person class sizes is the height of idiocy.



As is discussing ONLY increasing class sizes in reference to Romney's education plan. All the non-partisan stuff I've seen has him talking about increasing the quality of teachers, and positing that as more important than decreases in class size. That this gets spun into "Romney's answer to improving education is to increase class size", is just more of the usual propaganda that you spew and that I have a problem with.


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Wednesday, May 30, 2012 5:17 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Quote:

That said - a lotta times it ain't even the money so much as problems of corruption, inefficiency and trying to patch a model so broken that just dumping money into it is muchlike trying to fill a sieve, add-more-money is more often than not as dysfunctional a solution as a bandaid on a bullet wound, and this isn't an issue which can be encapsulated in a few feelgood soundbites, neither.
Sounds like our election system as well.


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Wednesday, May 30, 2012 7:00 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Smaller class sizes mean more teachers, and more teachers means a stronger teacher's union, which means more money going where ?

To the Democratic party.

I think Romney's onto something here. We really ought to stop the funneling of our tax dollars to the DNC via the teacher's unions, when ever possible.



" We're all just folk. " - Mal

" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall

"The world is a dangerous place. Not because of the people who are evil; but because of the people who don't do anything about it." - Albert Einstein


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