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Originally posted by 6IXSTRINGJACK:

1) 1984 - If you've ever read it, you know why. 'Nuff Said.....

2) Brave New World - If you ever read 1984 and wanted a possible happy ending to it, you also know why.

3) Animal Farm - Can you believe that my "Great Aunt" (my grandmother's sister) gave me to read as a child?

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Originally posted by ANTHONYT:
I'll throw Fahrenheit 451 and Ender's Game into the mix. Two good sci-fi novels with important messages about indoctrination and censorship.

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Originally posted by PIRATENEWS:

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Originally posted by 6IXSTRINGJACK:

1) 1984 - If you've ever read it, you know why. 'Nuff Said.....

2) Brave New World - If you ever read 1984 and wanted a possible happy ending to it, you also know why.

3) Animal Farm - Can you believe that my "Great Aunt" (my grandmother's sister) gave me to read as a child?

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Everyone should read these Presidential Operations Manuals.

4) Conan The Barbarian - To understand how to treat the womens and deal with Bad Guys.

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Originally posted by RionaEire:
Sarah and I watched the movie of Animal Farm in middle school, we went into it not knowing what to expect and finished it really scared, didn't want to turn out the lights that night when we got in bed. Its a great thing, book or movie, to experience at that age and get to thinking about.

I assume you're my pal until you let me know otherwise.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya.

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Originally posted by FREMDFIRMA:

Actually the stand-put piece for Orwells work for me is: Homage to Catalonia.

Also noteworthy.
The Wave, by Todd Strasser under the pen name Morton Rhue.
The 1981 Movie is also well worth watching.

It Can't Happen Here, by Sinclair Lewis.

Catch-22, by Joseph Heller.

More later, maybe - busy day today.

-F

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Originally posted by CaveTroll:

Lucifer's Hammer by Larry Niven and Jerry Pournelle. Excellent TEOTWAWKI novel before the genre had been named.

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"Will someone tell me what in the hell this is about?"

Rock Hudson as he walked out of the premiere before the film ended. Imdb.com

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Originally posted by 6IXSTRINGJACK:
A "stand out" piece from Orwell that could even attempt to match the profound effect of reading 1984 or Animal Farm.......

Even knowing that you're the type to shun conventional wisdom (takes one to know one), I'd have to say that you're probably the only person in my life still alive who'd I'd even take such a claim seriously.

I've honestly never heard of it.

I'd like to hear more about it from you, rather than look it up on Amazon.com and get the publisher's description.

How on earth did you find it to be more moving than 1984 or Animal Farm?

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Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
Jack: Unfortunately, video games appear to be becoming the thought control bread and circuses new time sink for everyone.

/hypocrite who plays video games.

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OCD much?

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Originally posted by Kwicko:
Sat through it more than once, Jack. More than several times, in fact. Bought it on VHS, then DVD, then Blu-Ray, too.

If you really need it explained to you, the sequel, 2010 does a passable job of dumbing it down quite a bit for mass consumption. Clarke's short story "The Sentinel" does a far better job, though, as it was the jumping-off point for the movie.

2001 set the stage for pretty much every space movie that followed, including Star Wars, in its look and modeling, but 2001 is one of the very rare few to pay attention to the "space" part of things, where explosions are silent...


Citizen Kane actually is a pretty awesome movie, if for no other reason than just the movie-making aspects of it. Watch it again sometime, and look at the innovations it brought - long tracking shots, up buildings and through windows - things that are commonplace now, but considered all but impossible at the time the movie was made. Orson Welles was the James Cameron of his time in a lot of ways - when others said something couldn't be done, he just invented new ways of doing it and carried on...



"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero


"I've not watched the video either, or am incapable of intellectually dealing with the substance of this thread, so I'll instead act like a juvenile and claim victory..." - Rappy

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Originally posted by Kwicko:

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Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
Jack: Unfortunately, video games appear to be becoming the thought control bread and circuses new time sink for everyone.

/hypocrite who plays video games.

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I have a hard time getting into video games. At the moment, there's only one I play with any regularity: Gran Turismo 5. I just haven't seen any others that would be enticing enough for me to go out and buy either a console or a dedicated PC to play them on.

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Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
Hmm, you're fortunate. I'd rather not play games, but for some reason people I know want me to, and then once I get started the competitive perfectionist 100% completion parts of my personality kick in.

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Originally posted by Oonjerah:
OCD much?
Not ready to defend this opinion, but:
Giving in to perfectionism is a bad idea.
Cultivating one's perfectionism is a terrible idea.
For most folks, it's inevitable self-defeat.

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Originally posted by BYTEMITE:

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OCD much?

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OBVIOUSLY. Take a pie chart of percentages of the population with some mental disorder, hang it on a wall, use it as a dart board. If you hit one, I probably have it.

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Originally posted by Magonsdaughter:
Books

Catcher in the Rye JD Salinger
Nineteen Eighty Four - George Orwell
To Kill a Mockingbird - Harper Lee
The Road - Cormac McCarthy
lord of the Rings - Tolkein
Cloudstreet - Tim Winton

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Originally posted by FREMDFIRMA:

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Originally posted by 6IXSTRINGJACK:
A "stand out" piece from Orwell that could even attempt to match the profound effect of reading 1984 or Animal Farm.......

Even knowing that you're the type to shun conventional wisdom (takes one to know one), I'd have to say that you're probably the only person in my life still alive who'd I'd even take such a claim seriously.

I've honestly never heard of it.

I'd like to hear more about it from you, rather than look it up on Amazon.com and get the publisher's description.

How on earth did you find it to be more moving than 1984 or Animal Farm?

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Well Jack - the REASON it stands out is that Orwell was actually THERE, during the Spanish Civil War, when the alliance shattered and the Communists and Socialists, who were originally down for "freedom" with the Anarchists, showed their true colors and jumped on board with the Fascists...
Cause all of them bastards really want Government, and the only real argument between THEM wasn't over gettin in the car, it was over who got to drive - and when they realized the Anarchists really meant that shit, EVERYONE turned on them.

This is, mind you, why Anarchists despise Socialists and Communists - up till then they'd been staunch allies, but obviously Anarchists are a threat to anyone who wants Government.
Also, America supported Franco, wholeheartedly, throughout his entire reign well into the 70's.
Hell, America was and still is extremely pro-Fascist, they just don't ADMIT it.
http://www.rationalrevolution.net/war/american_supporters_of_the_europ
.htm

That said, SOME americans did *not* support Franco, and snuck over there to form the "Abraham Lincoln Brigade"(1) and fought for the Anarchists.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abraham_Lincoln_Brigade
(1) This demonstrates a shocking ignorance of history cause Lincoln and Franco would have got on REAL good!

Of course, Anarchists being Anarchists, and foolishly trying to wage a conventional war on up to five fronts at once without any organization, it was kind of a foregone conclusion.
IMHO - the biggest mistake they made was trying to play the game by the enemies rules, it killed them, in the end, and crippled them from the beginning.
But see, again, Orwell was *THERE*, present and in person, at pointblank range and he saw with his own eyes the "true colors" of those involved.

And thus he wrote Homage to Catalonia.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homage_to_Catalonia

It was his experiences there, I think, which solidly influenced all his future works and the basis on which they were written, essentially this being the "root" of all his other work, but that's just my opinion.

Here's some more on that for you - folks like to dispute my words in regards to how Anarchists actually fight when forced to, thinking they meekly knuckle under like everyone else - they don't.
I *seriously* encourage you to read this bit, if no other.
http://www.english.illinois.edu/maps/scw/anarchist.htm


Oh yes, and Movies - Demolition Man.
Cause I swear that damn flick looks more prescient every day.

-F

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Originally posted by Magonsdaughter:
Books

Catcher in the Rye JD Salinger
Nineteen Eighty Four - George Orwell
To Kill a Mockingbird - Harper Lee
The Road - Cormac McCarthy
lord of the Rings - Tolkein
Cloudstreet - Tim Winton

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I know that you and I have the ability to survive in that type of world today, as well as zero desire to head a movement that could become a small form of government.... but as well as we'd be able to take care of ourselves if that time came, how well could we be able to also look out for everyone we cared about, with so much unbridled evil roaming around?

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This was no ordinary army. There were no uniforms (neck scarves usually indicated what organisation a militia member belonged to) or officers who enjoyed privileges over the ordinary soldiers. This was a revolutionary army and reflected the revolutionary principles of those in its ranks. Democracy was control. The basic unit was the group, composed generally of ten, which elected a delegate. Ten groups formed a century which also elected a delegate. Any number of centuries formed a column, which had a war committee responsible for the overall activities of the column. This was elected and accountable to the workers. Columns generally had ex-officers and artillery experts to advise them - but these were not given any power.

Workers joined the columns because they wanted to. They understood the need to fight and the necessity of creating a "popular army". They accepted discipline not because they were told to but because they understood the need to act in a co-ordinated manner. Members accepted orders because they trusted those who gave them. They had been elected from their own ranks. Militias were aligned with different organisations and often had their own newspapers. These were political organisations that understood the link between revolutionary politics and the war. The militias formed in Barcelona lost no time in marching on Aragon where the capital, Saragossa, had been taken by the fascists. The Durruti Column, named after one of the leading CNT militants, led this march and gradually liberated village after village. The aim was to free Saragossa which linked Catalonia with the second industrial region - the Basque Country, which as well as being a source of raw materials had heavy industries and arms manufacturing plants.

The Durruti column showed how to fight fascism. They understood that a civil war is a political battle, not just a military conflict. As they gained victory after victory they encouraged peasants to take over the land and collectivise. The Column provided the defence that allowed this to be done. The peasants rallied to them. They fed the worker- soldiers and many of them joined. Indeed Durutti had to plead with some of them not to join so that the land would not be depopulated and the task of collectivisation could be carried through.

As the anarchist militias achieved success after success ground was being lost on other fronts. Saragossa, though, was not taken and a long front developed. The militia system was blamed for this. The Stalinists said the workers were undisciplined and would not obey orders. They accused the anarchists of being unwilling to work with others to defeat the fascists.

Of course this was nonsense. The anarchists continually called for a united war effort and even for a single command. What they did demand, though, was that control of the army stayed with the working class. They did not believe that establishing a united command necessitated re-establishing the old militarist regime the officer caste.

The major problem facing the militias was a lack of arms. The munitions industry been cut off and the workers in Barcelona went to great lengths to improvise. Arms were made and transported to the front but there were still not enough of them. George Orwell (who fought in one of the POUM militias) described the arms situation on the Aragon front. The infantry "were far worse armed than an English public school Officers Training Corps, with worn out Mauser rifles which usually jammed after five shots; approximately one machine gun to fifty men (sic) and one pistol or revolver to about thirty men (sic). These weapons, so necessary in trench warfare, were not issued by the government.... A government which sends boys of fifteen to the front with rifles forty years old and keeps its biggest men and newest weapons In the rear is manifestly more afraid of the revolution the fascists".

And how right he was. An arms embargo was imposed by Britain preventing the sale of arms to either side, but not until mid-August. The government which had 600,000,000 dollars in gold, could have brought arms. Eventually this gold was sent to Moscow in exchange for arms but when they arrived there was a systematic refusal to supply the anarchist-controlled Aragon front. The arms that did arrive were sent only to Stalinist-controlled centres. A member of the war ministry referring to the arms which arrived in September commented "I noticed that these were not being given out in equal quantities, but there was a marked preference for the units which made up the Fifth Regiment". This was controlled by the Stalinists. The Catalan munitions plants, which depended on the central government for finance were compelled to surrender their product to such destinations as the government chose. This withholding of arms was fundamental to the strategy of the Stalinists and their allies in government for breaking down the power and prestige of the CNT. The communists wanted to undermine the militias in their efforts to have the regular army restarted. But more of this later.

This lack of arms did not only affect the Aragon front. Irun fell because of the shortage of weapons. One reporter described it. "They fought to the last cartridge (the workers of Irun. When they had no more ammunition they hurled packs of dynamite. When the dynamite was gone they rushed forward barehanded while the sixty times stronger enemy butchered them with their bayonets'. In Asturia the workers were bogged down trying to take Oviedo armed with little more than rifles and crude dynamite bombs. Although a few planes and artillery pieces were begged for, the workers were turned down. Again the government's fear of revolutionary workers took precedence over defeating the fascists.

It is a common lie that the militias, supposedly undisciplined and uncontrollable, were responsible for Franco's advance. All who saw the militias in action had nothing but praise for the heroism they witnessed. The government made a deliberate choice. It chose to starve the revolutionary workers of arms, it decided that defeating the revolution was more important than defeating fascism.

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Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
OBVIOUSLY. Take a pie chart of percentages of the population with some mental disorder, hang it on a wall, use it as a dart board. If you hit one, I probably have it.

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Originally posted by RionaEire:
Hi Jack, it doesn't sound like you're enjoying that Torchlight game anymore, maybe time to give it to a friend?

I love the movie of Cold Mountain, one of my favorite sex scenes, and I'm picky about my sex scenes. I really should read the book. I didn't like Angela's Ashes, the movie. It felt like they changed directors two thirds of the way through. I found it uninteresting once he got older, I got bored. I did however like the part about when he gets drunk and comes in singing all his father's old songs, a great illustration of the cycles we repeat without meaning to in life, the generational curse if you will, though I do like songs like that, The Rising of the Moon, etc. The songs aren't the problem of course.

I assume you're my pal until you let me know otherwise.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya.

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