An Obamination by chrisisall

Quote:
Originally posted by 6IXSTRINGJACK:
Please Chris, don't say you're endorsing me.......

Naw, just sayin' that when Barack even THINKS about making a decision that will piss off TPTB he has to consider the safety of his Wife & kids. Kinda makes it hard to be bold in a job like that, eh?

Chrisisall, wearing a frilly Mal thing on his head, and ready to shoot unarmed, full-body armoured Operatives

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Wednesday, June 6, 2012 9:42 AM

DALEK!

...or it could be that whole limited power thing discribed in the US constitution.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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Wednesday, June 6, 2012 9:58 AM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Quote:
Originally posted by m52nickerson:
...or it could be that whole limited power thing discribed in the US constitution.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

Hello,

I would be surprised if anyone was satisfied with the boldness of this president even within the limitations of power. Particularly in military matters and matters of military detention, the president has vast, sweeping powers that have not been exercised. The President has failed to attempt resistance to many policies that he should have opposed. He can not hide his failures behind the guise of limited power when he has instead thrown his power behind terrible policies.

No pass from me for this objectionable president whose singular merit is that he's not the other guy.

--Anthony

Note to Self:
Raptor - women who want to control their reproductive processes are sluts.
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.
Never forget what these men are.
“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -Thomas Szasz

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Wednesday, June 6, 2012 10:00 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by m52nickerson:
...or it could be that whole limited power thing discribed in the US constitution.

Naw, Dubya wants to start a pre-emptive war, he does it. Nixon wants us off the Gold standard, he does it. Presidents can do ANYTHING they want to, as long as there's no magic bullet waiting for them on the other side of that decision. Close Guantanamo? A napkin appears on a table that has "family-?" written on it, and suddenly closing Gitmo seems like a bad plan.

Chrisisall, wearing a frilly Mal thing on his head, and ready to shoot unarmed, full-body armoured Operatives

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Wednesday, June 6, 2012 10:02 AM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Quote:
Naw, just sayin' that when Barack even THINKS about making a decision that will piss off TPTB he has to consider the safety of his Wife & kids. Kinda makes it hard to be bold in a job like that, eh?

Hello,

Bold enough to send other people's wives and kids to die. Bold enough to kill the wives and kids of foreign peoples. This president has been impressively bold with wives and kids. I wish he was more timid in that regard.

--Anthony

Note to Self:
Raptor - women who want to control their reproductive processes are sluts.
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.
Never forget what these men are.
“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -Thomas Szasz

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Wednesday, June 6, 2012 10:05 AM

DALEK!

Yes the president has pretty broad powers when it come to the military. Yes he could have pulled out of Iraq and Afganistan right away. That most likely would have cause even more problems than a measured withdraw. He could end drone attacks, but some including I agree with them. He could have gone against futher military detentions, but than again we don't know what he knows. He could have closed Gitmo, but would have had no where to place who are held there. The president does not have the power to just let people into the country, nor drop them where ever he likes.

So yes he could have been bolder, but bolder does not mean better.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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Wednesday, June 6, 2012 10:14 AM

DALEK!

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Naw, Dubya wants to start a pre-emptive war, he does it. Nixon wants us off the Gold standard, he does it. Presidents can do ANYTHING they want to, as long as there's no magic bullet waiting for them on the other side of that decision. Close Guantanamo? A napkin appears on a table that has "family-?" written on it, and suddenly closing Gitmo seems like a bad plan.

As far as pre-emptive war the president does control the military. Nixon made unofficial policy which was backed up by congress to make it official in 78, so he did not do that alone.

As for you napkin fantasy, unless you have a credible citation it is nothing but that, a fantasy.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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Wednesday, June 6, 2012 10:17 AM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Quote:
The president does not have the power to just let people into the country, nor drop them where ever he likes.

Hello,

Actually, the President does have the power to import and export people. We imported these people to begin with. We export these people or people like them to countries who handle interrogations for us. The President is a great importer and exporter of prisoners.

Quote:
but than again we don't know what he knows.

Which makes it easy to violate the civil rights of people forever and ever and ever, since we can never know what he knows and it can always be claimed he knows something secret that justifies the violation of human beings. I posit this opinion: Nothing justifies such a violation, not even the secret unspoken horrors that we are left to imagine. People arrested should either be tried or released, not kept in indefinite detention.

Quote:
Yes he could have pulled out of Iraq and Afganistan right away. That most likely would have cause even more problems than a measured withdraw.

It is an impressive measure, this withdrawal. We have a private mercenary army numbering in the thousands in Iraq that is poised to continue there indefinitely. We have enjoyed about eleven years in Afghanistan, the better part of four under this president's watch. I do not believe the instrument exists to measure this withdrawal.

--Anthony

Note to Self:
Raptor - women who want to control their reproductive processes are sluts.
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.
Never forget what these men are.
“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -Thomas Szasz

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Wednesday, June 6, 2012 10:34 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by m52nickerson:
He could have gone against futher military detentions, but than again we don't know what he knows.

You fucking sniveling lapdog coward.
Let's hide behind those who know better than us how to conduct world affairs.
EXCEPT they are just folk like you & me, no smarter, and in many cases a lot dumber. What they know that we don't, genius, is how they want to attempt to manipulate this planet to their OWN ends.
NASA employs smart people; government employ good puppets to serve the money.
Fantasy? I'm so tired of thoughtless pricks... yeah, YOU, 52.

Chrisisall, wearing a frilly Mal thing on his head, and ready to shoot unarmed, full-body armoured Operatives

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Wednesday, June 6, 2012 10:37 AM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:
Originally posted by m52nickerson:
He could have gone against futher military detentions, but than again we don't know what he knows.
You fucking sniveling lapdog coward.
Let's hide behind those who know better than us how to conduct world affairs.
EXCEPT they are just folk like you & me, no smarter, and in many cases a lot dumber. What they know that we don't, genius, is how they want to attempt to manipulate this planet to their OWN ends.
NASA employs smart people; government employ good puppets to serve the money.
Fantasy? I'm so tired of thoughtless pricks... yeah, YOU, 52.

Chrisisall, wearing a frilly Mal thing on his head, and ready to shoot unarmed, full-body armoured Operatives

Hello,

I think perhaps a gentler response is sufficient for Mr. Nickerson who generally seems intelligent and logical and able to follow a line of reasoning.

--Anthony

Note to Self:
Raptor - women who want to control their reproductive processes are sluts.
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.
Never forget what these men are.
“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -Thomas Szasz

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Wednesday, June 6, 2012 10:43 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by ANTHONYT:
Which makes it easy to violate the civil rights of people forever and ever and ever, since we can never know what he knows and it can always be claimed he knows something secret that justifies the violation of human beings. I posit this opinion: Nothing justifies such a violation, not even the secret unspoken horrors that we are left to imagine. People arrested should either be tried or released, not kept in indefinite detention.

Yes, quite. But Obama is going status quo on this. I believe he is a decent fellow, therefore I posit the dark & unseen restraints of the office.

Like when Reagan told North concerning the Contras, "Get it done, Ollie," TPTB had no problems with that, hence no blowback for Reagan when it went south. If Reagan had instead ceased all black bag ops in Central America, he'd have been out of office or dead so fast it wouldn't be funny.

Chrisisall, wearing a frilly Mal thing on his head, and ready to shoot unarmed, full-body armoured Operatives

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Wednesday, June 6, 2012 10:50 AM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Hello,

I can't give Obama a pass as a decent human being, unfortunately.

There are men in uniform with wives and children who take and oath and risk all- even the livelihood of their families, to do their duty. We expect them to live up to this oath.

There are men in Federal policework with wives and children who take an oath and risk all- even the livelihood of their families, to do their duty. We expect them to live up to this oath.

I do not believe Obama is a fool or a stranger to politics, nor surprised at the tactics of dark powers. If we ordinary citizens have imaginations capable of encompassing such possibilities, he must as well. I believe he knew what his Oath entailed when he took it.

I expect him to live up to his Oath, no matter what. He is failing us. He has failed us. He gets no pass for failing to risk and failing to sacrifice. Not when everyone else is on the altar with knives to their throats.

--Anthony

Note to Self:
Raptor - women who want to control their reproductive processes are sluts.
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.
Never forget what these men are.
“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -Thomas Szasz

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Wednesday, June 6, 2012 10:51 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by ANTHONYT:
I think perhaps a gentler response is sufficient for Mr. Nickerson who generally seems intelligent and logical and able to follow a line of reasoning.

With all due respect Tony, no.
You pull that "Well, THEY know better..." BS on me & I go berserk. That's the kind of crap pulled on kids when parents want to not have to explain themselves, or when adults want to hide child abuse... NO ONE knows better. We are all in this together, and if you're not willfully ignorant or mentally incapacitated in some way it's stupid to claim that elite people with special secret knowledge are duty bound to lead the poor stupid masses along by the nose for their own good (but, it DID work for Hitler...).

Dubya graduated from Harvard. That says all you need to know about elite minds.

Chrisisall, wearing a frilly Mal thing on his head, and ready to shoot unarmed, full-body armoured Operatives

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Wednesday, June 6, 2012 10:55 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by ANTHONYT:
I can't give Obama a pass as a decent human being, unfortunately.

I can't say you're wrong, many good people have died needlessly on account of his decisions, clearly.

Chrisisall, wearing a frilly Mal thing on his head, and ready to shoot unarmed, full-body armoured Operatives

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Wednesday, June 6, 2012 11:03 AM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Hello,

Do you remember one of the last important votes he made before he won the Presidency?

It involved illegal wiretapping and what to do about it. Several U.S. companies were involved in illegal wiretapping on government orders, and a decision had to be made whether to prosecute or not.

He voted not, thus setting a precedent that illegal orders were okay to follow. I felt that we originally got this problem solved after WWII, but now we've reversed ourselves, and he helped.

I must be a bad Christian, because I've never forgiven him for that. On the other hand, he's done nothing to earn my forgiveness, either.

All the promise he held in 2008 has evaporated. The hope he instilled for the future was a mirage. Do you know what it takes for someone like me to make a leap of faith and vote for someone like him? I did it solely on the hope of restoring civil liberties and ending the endless wars.

I might as well have invested my hope for the future in real estate derivatives.

--Anthony

Note to Self:
Raptor - women who want to control their reproductive processes are sluts.
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.
Never forget what these men are.
“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -Thomas Szasz

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Wednesday, June 6, 2012 11:10 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by ANTHONYT:
Several U.S. companies were involved in illegal wiretapping on government orders, and a decision had to be made whether to prosecute or not.

Tony, that's a big grey area- don't comply with the government & get fired & end up in prison & hope lawyers can get you out in a year or two?

How about prosecuting the parts of THE GOVERNMENT who GAVE those illegal orders???

But I do see what you're saying...

Chrisisall, wearing a frilly Mal thing on his head, and ready to shoot unarmed, full-body armoured Operatives

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Wednesday, June 6, 2012 11:17 AM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:
Originally posted by ANTHONYT:
Several U.S. companies were involved in illegal wiretapping on government orders, and a decision had to be made whether to prosecute or not.

Tony, that's a big grey area- don't comply with the government & get fired & end up in prison & hope lawyers can get you out in a year or two?

How about prosecuting the parts of THE GOVERNMENT who GAVE those illegal orders???

But I do see what you're saying...

Chrisisall, wearing a frilly Mal thing on his head, and ready to shoot unarmed, full-body armoured Operatives

Hello,

If everyone knew that the consequences of following illegal orders were harsh, they might not be willing to do so. Now everyone knows that there are no consequences. So why not?

Even in my own humble line of work, I am sometimes issued orders I am uncomfortable with. Each time I say no, I risk myself. But I know if I say yes and things go bad, nobody who gave the orders will be stepping in front of me to take the fall.

I agree with you that *everyone* involved in those illegal orders should be prosecuted, from the top down. Unfortunately, without the people on the bottom delivering evidence willingly or as the result of a criminal investigation, you'll never get to the top. Essentially, our representatives voted to shield themselves, and that's abominable.

--Anthony

Note to Self:
Raptor - women who want to control their reproductive processes are sluts.
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.
Never forget what these men are.
“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -Thomas Szasz

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Wednesday, June 6, 2012 11:34 AM

I am forced to agree with you.

Chrisisall, wearing a frilly Mal thing on his head, and ready to shoot unarmed, full-body armoured Operatives

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Wednesday, June 6, 2012 1:56 PM

DALEK!

Quote:
Originally posted by ANTHONYT:
Actually, the President does have the power to import and export people. We imported these people to begin with. We export these people or people like them to countries who handle interrogations for us. The President is a great importer and exporter of prisoners.

The president can't just drop someone in another country, nor can he bring them to ours. Remember Gitmo is in Cuba. Also remember that congress passed legislation specifically baring the President from bringing Gitmo prisoners to the US. If you know of some other law that gives the president these powers please cite it.

Quote:
Originally posted by ANTHONYT:Which makes it easy to violate the civil rights of people forever and ever and ever, since we can never know what he knows and it can always be claimed he knows something secret that justifies the violation of human beings. I posit this opinion: Nothing justifies such a violation, not even the secret unspoken horrors that we are left to imagine. People arrested should either be tried or released, not kept in indefinite detention.

Yes it does, and for the most part I agree with you. Right now trials are going on for some, others are being worked on finding somewhere to release them to. I do understand that laws are not perfect, nor are court systems. So in some cases violating the rights of a few to protect many more I'm all right with.

Quote:
It is an impressive measure, this withdrawal. We have a private mercenary army numbering in the thousands in Iraq that is poised to continue there indefinitely. We have enjoyed about eleven years in Afghanistan, the better part of four under this president's watch. I do not believe the instrument exists to measure this withdrawal.

Iraq could expel the mercenaries if they wished, right now they don't. Afghanistan was largely forgotten when we went into Iraq. That is the major reason it has taken so long, but we are due out soon as well.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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Wednesday, June 6, 2012 2:03 PM

DALEK!

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
You fucking sniveling lapdog coward.
Let's hide behind those who know better than us how to conduct world affairs.
EXCEPT they are just folk like you & me, no smarter, and in many cases a lot dumber. What they know that we don't, genius, is how they want to attempt to manipulate this planet to their OWN ends.
NASA employs smart people; government employ good puppets to serve the money.
Fantasy? I'm so tired of thoughtless pricks... yeah, YOU, 52.

You know as much as the president? Really? You know what is in that classified security brief he gets every morning? Damn I would like to have a look at that.

It is true that elected officials are just folks like us, or at least start that way. Once in their post they get access to information we don't have. This is why elections are important. You have to give top officials some leeway with the understanding they are better informed than the rest of us.

Now you calling me a thoughtless prick is funny. Out of the both of us who is making the more intelligent argument here? As I pointed out, you and I don't see the info that the President sees...or he is getting slipped napkins with warnings on them. One of those arguments fits nicely in reality and one is more appropriate for fiction writing. Claim down and you might be able to figure out which is which.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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Wednesday, June 6, 2012 2:51 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by m52nickerson:
You have to give top officials some leeway with the understanding they are better informed than the rest of us.

BETTER INFORMED????? Now I REALLY AM laffing my fucking ass off.
WMD??? It was TRUE... oh, then it wasn't... a guy lied... TOP officials bought it... or did they? Used it, more like.
A web of stupidity & deception.
I knew it was shit, and I didn't graduate from Harvard. Search the posts, I said it all along. Back in 2005 when I joined here I, among others here, explained how it was all working.
Give them LEEWAY???

Fuck you, asshole.*

* Acknowledgement to the works of James Cameron

Chrisisall, wearing a frilly Mal thing on his head, and ready to shoot unarmed, full-body armoured Operatives

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Wednesday, June 6, 2012 2:57 PM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Hello Nick,

Can you explain to me what force is preventing us from deporting the prisoners back to their country of origin? You keep saying we are looking for places to put these prisoners, but I was not aware they had no place to go. Possibly I am not as well-read on this topic as I'd like to be. Usually the procedure is to deport people who are on your territory but do not belong there. (Gitmo is our territory, incidentally. We are not occupying that chunk of island by the kind invitation of the Cuban government.)

Quote:
So in some cases violating the rights of a few to protect many more I'm all right with.

I find this to be a morally corrupt and cowardly position. This nation was founded on principles of liberty and essential human rights. We have spent centuries attempting to realize the ideals set forth in our founding documents. If we will violate those principles when they become inconvenient, what are we? I am told that our soldiers fight and die to preserve our nation. But if we will sell out our principles to assuage our fears, then our men and women are being sent to slaughter for the sake of a lie. They are dying and killing not for freedoms but for the ruination of freedoms. Thus are citizen soldiers made into monsters, and thus do we become a nation of criminals.

Quote:
Iraq could expel the mercenaries if they wished, right now they don't.

Can they? Can they expel our thousands of 'security' personnel and uproot our massive Embassy complex? Can they thwart our interests in the area with impunity? What happened to them the last time they defied us? I find some of your notions more fanciful than Chris'.

Quote:
Afghanistan was largely forgotten when we went into Iraq. That is the major reason it has taken so long, but we are due out soon as well.

You can not be seriously suggesting we are still in Afghanistan because we forgot we were there. Also, what is our timeline for the cessation of operations in the area? You seem to have greater confidence than I that we will be leaving there 'soon.' What is 'soon'?

--Anthony

Note to Self:
Raptor - women who want to control their reproductive processes are sluts.
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.
Never forget what these men are.
“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -Thomas Szasz

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Wednesday, June 6, 2012 3:08 PM

DALEK!

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
BETTER INFORMED????? Now I REALLY AM laffing my fucking ass off.
WMD??? It was TRUE... oh, then it wasn't... a guy lied... TOP officials bought it... or did they? Used it, more like.
A web of stupidity & deception.
I knew it was shit, and I didn't graduate from Harvard. Search the posts, I said it all along. Back in 2005 when I joined here I, among others here, explained how it was all working.
Give them LEEWAY???

Fuck you, asshole.*

* Acknowledgement to the works of James Cameron

Laugh all you want it clear that you are under informed. Officials in the bush administration doubted the WMD intel. Bush choose to believe it, others did not. Bush still have more knowledge of the situation they you did. Just because you have the information does not mean you will make smart decisions.

Oh, and you calling it. There is a saying. Even a broken clock is right twice a day.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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Wednesday, June 6, 2012 3:16 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by m52nickerson:
I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

And BTW, 'LEEWAY' is what allowed that stupid war against a petty dictator who was NOT baking his 'yellowcake' in a master plot to destroy America, AND the global financial meltdown Wall St began, and that is continuing BECAUSE of that war cost & the destabilization it caused & IS causing.
9-11 was a total win for Bin Laden- why? Because it played upon our arrogance & self-righteous imperialistic mentality, a thing YOU seem to buy into with some fervour.

Ignorance of man? Tell that to the Cylons, fracking moron.

Chrisisall, wearing a frilly Mal thing on his head, and ready to shoot unarmed, full-body armoured Operatives

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Wednesday, June 6, 2012 3:21 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by m52nickerson:
Bush still have more knowledge of the situation they you did.

Oh, he have more knowledge?
Then pardon the fuck out of my lack of hard data- intelligent intuition NEEDS to be applied in such cases, CLEARLY.

Chrisisall, wearing a frilly Mal thing on his head, and ready to shoot unarmed, full-body armoured Operatives

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Wednesday, June 6, 2012 3:29 PM

DALEK!

Quote:
Originally posted by ANTHONYT:
Can you explain to me what force is preventing us from deporting the prisoners back to their country of origin? You keep saying we are looking for places to put these prisoners, but I was not aware they had no place to go. Possibly I am not as well-read on this topic as I'd like to be. Usually the procedure is to deport people who are on your territory but do not belong there. (Gitmo is our territory, incidentally. We are not occupying that chunk of island by the kind invitation of the Cuban government.)

In many cases their country does not want them. Iraq and Afghanistan do not want people that very well may cause more insurgence. Same for Pakistan. Saudi Arabia may take some back, but not others. For these countries we took problems off their hands and they don't want them back.

Gitmo is our territory, but it is still not the same legal as mainland USA. As I said, congress barred the President from bring Gitmo detainees on to US soil.

Quote:
Originally posted by ANTHONYT:I find this to be a morally corrupt and cowardly position. This nation was founded on principles of liberty and essential human rights. We have spent centuries attempting to realize the ideals set forth in our founding documents. If we will violate those principles when they become inconvenient, what are we? I am told that our soldiers fight and die to preserve our nation. But if we will sell out our principles to assuage our fears, then our men and women are being sent to slaughter for the sake of a lie. They are dying and killing not for freedoms but for the ruination of freedoms. Thus are citizen soldiers made into monsters, and thus do we become a nation of criminals.

What are we...realists. Look at the history of our nation. We have pushed aside laws and ideals when needed many times. As have every other nation on the globe. Laws are never perfect, and sometimes the can protect those who would do us harm. In those cases lives are more important than ideals. You maybe willing to sacrifice your life or lives of those who volunteer for those ideals. Are you willing to sacrifice the lives of you loved ones?

Quote:
Originally posted by ANTHONYT:Can they? Can they expel our thousands of 'security' personnel and uproot our massive Embassy complex? Can they thwart our interests in the area with impunity? What happened to them the last time they defied us? I find some of your notions more fanciful than Chris'.

They can. They don't because they still want our help. The governments know they still have problems and need the US and others there right now. Do you think the governments in those countries want to be overthrown, or even take that risk?

Quote:
Originally posted by ANTHONYT:You can not be seriously suggesting we are still in Afghanistan because we forgot we were there. Also, what is our timeline for the cessation of operations in the area? You seem to have greater confidence than I that we will be leaving there 'soon.' What is 'soon'?

In a way, yes. Invading Iraq pulled resources out of Afghanistan and over time allowed insurgence to make inroads in the country again. While we were gaining in Iraq we were losing in Afghanistan. Instead of focusing on what we started our attention turned elsewhere.

As fore a time line, we are in the precess of withdrawing now. By 2014 the Afghan forces should be in charge of the countries security. We are training them now.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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Wednesday, June 6, 2012 3:31 PM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:
Originally posted by m52nickerson:
Bush still have more knowledge of the situation they you did.
Oh, he have more knowledge?
Then pardon the fuck out of my lack of hard data- intelligent intuition NEEDS to be applied in such cases, CLEARLY.

Chrisisall, wearing a frilly Mal thing on his head, and ready to shoot unarmed, full-body armoured Operatives

Hello,

Chris, if you allow arguments to become massively charged with negative feelings, then the other party in the argument will not admit the wrongness of their position, perhaps not even to themselves. They will oppose you simply because they now dislike you, and they will stop reconsidering their own reasoning process.

Nick is not Mr. Raptor. I believe he can be reached with sound logic and moral arguments. I am assuming for the time that he is simply a man, like so many men, who place a great deal of faith and trust in a government that has done little to warrant it. I assume he is a man, like so many men, who has not taken the time to analyze the moral philosophy represented by certain actions.

But once the argument devolves into 'fuck you' and 'fuck you, too' then nobody is thinking anymore and nothing can change in the minds of men.

--Anthony

Note to Self:
Raptor - women who want to control their reproductive processes are sluts.
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.
Never forget what these men are.
“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -Thomas Szasz

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Wednesday, June 6, 2012 3:34 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by ANTHONYT:
I find some of your notions more fanciful than Chris'.

Thanks for the de-hurtful spin on that, Tony. I realize that some of my notions may be unduly influenced by the movie 'Conspiracy Theory', but after half a century of watching TPTB screw the world in the name of power & profit, I tend to feel that when you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth.

Chrisisall, wearing a frilly Mal thing on his head, and ready to shoot unarmed, full-body armoured Operatives

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Wednesday, June 6, 2012 3:41 PM

DALEK!

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
And BTW, 'LEEWAY' is what allowed that stupid war against a petty dictator who was NOT baking his 'yellowcake' in a master plot to destroy America, AND the global financial meltdown Wall St began, and that is continuing BECAUSE of that war cost & the destabilization it caused & IS causing.
9-11 was a total win for Bin Laden- why? Because it played upon our arrogance & self-righteous imperialistic mentality, a thing YOU seem to buy into with some fervour.

Ignorance of man? Tell that to the Cylons, fracking moron.

The financial meltdown had zero to do with war costs, nor is it continuing because of them. To think so shows a sever lack of knowledge about the economy and the recession.

You are also dangerously close to constructing a strawman here. I'm not saying that going into Iraq was a smart decision, or the intel on Iraq was accurate. Of course that one decision is just that, one decision. As I said a person can have the most knowledge and facts presented to them and still make an bad decision.

There is also a fine line to be walked when responding to attacks. Do nothing and you look like an easy target, do to much and it invokes more anger against you. Teddy Roosevelt said it best, "Speak softly but carry a big stick."

...okay Orwell may have said it a bit better, "People sleep peacefully in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf."

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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Wednesday, June 6, 2012 3:46 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by ANTHONYT:
he is a man, like so many men, who has not taken the time to analyze the moral philosophy represented by certain actions.

I wish I had your positive moral center, Tony, I really do. I respect you more than most anyone else here, but I can't be the tolerant dude I once was.
Like Mal was in the beginning of Serenity, I've lost faith. I'd shoot a man surrendering that just had a part in killing innocents without so much as a blink. Maybe Nick IS like the Operative, maybe he CAN be enlightened, but I'm not the man for that job.
Sadly.

Chrisisall, wearing a frilly Mal thing on his head, and ready to shoot unarmed, full-body armoured Operatives

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Wednesday, June 6, 2012 3:53 PM

DALEK!

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
I've lost faith. I'd shoot a man surrendering that just had a part in killing innocents without so much as a blink.

Yet, when that is what the government is doing you have a problem with it. That is a bit hypocritical.

Yes the wars have killed innocent people. That happens in war, but far more have been people looking to kill others.

The interesting thing is that Mal kills to survive and protect his crew, while the Operative kills because he believes in a cause. You can apply both of those sides to the US and the people we are fighting. It all depends on you point of view.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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Wednesday, June 6, 2012 3:56 PM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Hello,

Quote:
In many cases their country does not want them. Iraq and Afghanistan do not want people that very well may cause more insurgence. Same for Pakistan. Saudi Arabia may take some back, but not others. For these countries we took problems off their hands and they don't want them back.

I was not aware (and continue to be doubtful) that we can not return a person to their country of citizenship, whether that country wants them or not. But if I were to accept this, it still makes little sense to maintain these people in a prison environment. If they are charged with no crime then they should be as free as we can make them, with all the rights we can possibly grant them, until we find them a home. It is no different than if we scooped up a thousand people from Poland or France. Innocent men are innocent men. We have no right to maintain them in prisoner's condition if they are not charged with crimes. We do have a responsibility to them.

Quote:
What are we...realists. Look at the history of our nation. We have pushed aside laws and ideals when needed many times. As have every other nation on the globe. Laws are never perfect, and sometimes the can protect those who would do us harm. In those cases lives are more important than ideals.

The last time we did something like this, we rounded up a bunch of Japanese people who committed no crimes and put them into internment camps because of their ethnicity. Each time 'we have pushed aside laws and ideals' it has been a travesty and a mark of dishonor upon this nation. Now you want to hold it up as a model of action? We can not dismiss our violations with claims of expediency or because 'laws aren't perfect.' We have a responsibility to make our laws and actions as perfect as we can. We are not even trying to. That is criminal.

Quote:
You maybe willing to sacrifice your life or lives of those who volunteer for those ideals. Are you willing to sacrifice the lives of you loved ones?

Of course. If I could live anywhere on Earth I would choose to live here because we give rights to everyone, even those accused of crimes. I would choose to make my family here (and do), even knowing all the dangers involved in giving people rights. I make that choice every day that I don't move away.

Let me ask you a more poignant question, Nick. Would you be willing to send your entire family to jail for the rest of their lives (or until I feel like releasing them) in order that I might feel safer?

Quote:
They can. They don't because they still want our help.

I disagree that they can. I think we would exert whatever force was necessary to get our way, as we have done in the past. (This is not theory, this is what we actually did.) And if they 'need our help' it is because we created that situation for them. They didn't need our help before. We broke their knees precisely so that we could have an excuse to stick around and 'help' them.

Quote:
As fore a time line, we are in the precess of withdrawing now. By 2014 the Afghan forces should be in charge of the countries security. We are training them now.

Actually, it's the end of 2014, and only if Obama is still in charge and doesn't change his mind. So, we will be actively fighting for two more years. That is 'soon.' But will we be leaving? Not according to my research.

http://www.voanews.com/content/obama_administration_defends_afghanista
n_withdrawal_timeline/1105882.html

"“We are not going anyplace," he said. "We have an enduring presence that will be in Afghanistan and will continue to work with them on counter-terrorism.""

We plan to be there forever, basically. Like Iraq only moreso. They will 'need' us too. This is our 'soon.' Soon = Never. Meanwhile we are gearing up for more fighting in the region. New conflicts are on the horizon. Eternal war. This is what the United States has been transformed into by a handful of commercial jets and two handfuls of men. One handful of Terrorists, and one handful of American leaders. Leaders intent on selling us 'security' if we are willing to pay in the twin coins of liberty and endless bloodshed.

--Anthony

Note to Self:
Raptor - women who want to control their reproductive processes are sluts.
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.
Never forget what these men are.
“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -Thomas Szasz

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Wednesday, June 6, 2012 4:00 PM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:
Originally posted by ANTHONYT:
I find some of your notions more fanciful than Chris'.

Thanks for the de-hurtful spin on that, Tony. I realize that some of my notions may be unduly influenced by the movie 'Conspiracy Theory', but after half a century of watching TPTB screw the world in the name of power & profit, I tend to feel that when you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth.

Chrisisall, wearing a frilly Mal thing on his head, and ready to shoot unarmed, full-body armoured Operatives

Hello,

You may enjoy (be alarmed by?) a book called 'Legacy of Ashes' about our intelligence community. It only uses de-classified sources and reveals what a criminal shambles the CIA is and how they have on multiple occasions fed tailored information and misinformation to our leaders in service of an agenda.

It is available on audiobook so if you have a job where you don't have to talk much, you can listen to it at work.

--Anthony

Note to Self:
Raptor - women who want to control their reproductive processes are sluts.
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.
Never forget what these men are.
“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -Thomas Szasz

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Wednesday, June 6, 2012 4:02 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by m52nickerson:

The financial meltdown had zero to do with war costs, nor is it continuing because of them.

Oh, dig your hole deeper, dope. So, a HARVARD business graduate are you? ZERO? You clearly, CLEARLY have no idea what you are discussing here.
Investing in life has a future; investing in death leads to ruin (long term).
You simplistic fool, continue to buy into the corporate-military-industrial-complex model.
And forget the looming world food shortages, the climate change imperatives, the inevitable fossil fuel depletion & fixate on THE BAD GUY that needs killin'.
We could have nearly ENDED world hunger (short term, at least) with the money we spent killing Saddam.

Economic THEORY. Gold standard. Rome fell but we won't.
What the fuck ever. You'll believe what you want.
Hope your home is paid off...

Chrisisall, wearing a frilly Mal thing on his head, and ready to shoot unarmed, full-body armoured Operatives

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Wednesday, June 6, 2012 4:04 PM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Quote:
Orwell may have said it a bit better, "People sleep peacefully in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf."

Hello,

You must be familiar with the concept of 'blowback?'

Or to rephrase good old Orwell... "People sleep fitfully in their beds at night because corrupt men violate strangers on their behalf."

--Anthony

Note to Self:
Raptor - women who want to control their reproductive processes are sluts.
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.
Never forget what these men are.
“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -Thomas Szasz

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Wednesday, June 6, 2012 4:07 PM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Quote:
The financial meltdown had zero to do with war costs, nor is it continuing because of them.

Hello,

I think what Chris is saying is that if we were not spending hundreds of billions (trillions, probably) on warfare then we'd be in a much better financial position to shore up the situation here at home.

ETA:

Taxpayers in The United States will pay $111.1 billion for Afghanistan war spending for FY2012 Enacted. This fee will purchase us extensive bloodshed and the antagonism of many foreign peoples. For the same amount of money, the following could be provided:

**********

14.1 million Scholarships for University Students for One Year

22.8 million People Receiving Low-Income Healthcare for One Year

51.1 million Annual Energy Costs for a Household for One Year

53.1 million One Year Worth of Groceries for an Individual

10.7 million Fair Market Rent for One Bedroom Apartment for One Year

47.9 million Households Converted to All Solar Energy for One Year

100.6 million Households Converted to All Wind Energy for One Year

Source: http://costofwar.com/en/tradeoffs/
**********

Note that this is 'on the books' spending for a narrowly declared purpose. A significant amount of our military budget is sunk into mystery appropriations and who knows exactly how much and what for?

This is how our people could be helped for the same price of harming foreign people. But we are instead investing this money into killing humans instead of helping humanity. Which is better for the economy? Which is better for the nation?

--Anthony

Note to Self:
Raptor - women who want to control their reproductive processes are sluts.
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.
Never forget what these men are.
“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -Thomas Szasz

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Wednesday, June 6, 2012 4:13 PM

6IXSTRINGJACK

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:
Originally posted by 6IXSTRINGJACK:
Please Chris, don't say you're endorsing me.......
Naw, just sayin' that when Barack even THINKS about making a decision that will piss off TPTB he has to consider the safety of his Wife & kids. Kinda makes it hard to be bold in a job like that, eh?

Chrisisall, wearing a frilly Mal thing on his head, and ready to shoot unarmed, full-body armoured Operatives

Right Chris.... because Obama, aside from being the first Black president, was also the first American President who had a wife and kids to think about.

From a PR standpoint, I'd have to say that Obama did a MUCH better job hiding his smoking habit from the public the last 4 years than he did keeping his wife and kids out of the public eye. Peter Parker, he is definitely not....

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Naw, Dubya wants to start a pre-emptive war, he does it. Nixon wants us off the Gold standard, he does it. Presidents can do ANYTHING they want to, as long as there's no magic bullet waiting for them on the other side of that decision. Close Guantanamo? A napkin appears on a table that has "family-?" written on it, and suddenly closing Gitmo seems like a bad plan.

Before I get into Obama, since we're just "bi-partisanly" throwing out random things president have done before.... "Carter gave away the Panama Canal, and all of that tax revenue".

But since we're talking about pre-emtive wars, and Obama is president now....

Not only didn't he do ZERO to diminish what was already happening, but let's not forget Libya.

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Wednesday, June 6, 2012 4:24 PM

OK, I'm just a conspiracy idiot. I know nothing. Please disregard my posts. I am not the droid you're looking for.
Move along. Move along.

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Wednesday, June 6, 2012 4:29 PM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
OK, I'm just a conspiracy idiot. I know nothing. Please disregard my posts. I am not the droid you're looking for.
Move along. Move along.

Hello Chris,

You're not an idiot. Government agencies have blackmailed politicians and public figures to get their way in the past. Imagining them to be threatened is no great leap of the imagination. It's just that I expect anyone running for president to do their job anyway or go down swinging. I figure when you take that sacred Oath, it's best to consider yourself dead and everyone you care about at risk. And you do the job knowing that, because THAT is the kind of sacrifice worth making for the well-being of the nation.

--Anthony

Note to Self:
Raptor - women who want to control their reproductive processes are sluts.
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.
Never forget what these men are.
“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -Thomas Szasz

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Wednesday, June 6, 2012 4:48 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by ANTHONYT:
I figure when you take that sacred Oath, it's best to consider yourself dead and everyone you care about at risk. And you do the job knowing that, because THAT is the kind of sacrifice worth making for the well-being of the nation.

Tony, maybe it's better that we let ourselves be considered dopey jerks, lest we risk bringing down upon ourselves unwanted heat. This IS a flagged site BTW, and I for one have seen too many movies. My opinion is innocuous. I'm wrong on a lot that I state here, and I freely admit it. I sometimes go too far with my outlandish BS.

Chrisisall, wearing a frilly Mal thing on his head, and ready to shoot unarmed, full-body armoured Operatives

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Wednesday, June 6, 2012 8:49 PM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht

I agree with Nick that we would have maybe done a better, more thorough job in Afghanistan if we hadn't gotten sidetracked by Iraq.

Anthony I know what you mean about forgiveness and how hard it is sometimes. One of my weaknesses is that I have a tendency to hold grudges, not good I know.

I assume you're my pal until you let me know otherwise.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya.

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Thursday, June 7, 2012 1:53 AM

DALEK!

Quote:
Originally posted by ANTHONYT:
I was not aware (and continue to be doubtful) that we can not return a person to their country of citizenship, whether that country wants them or not. But if I were to accept this, it still makes little sense to maintain these people in a prison environment. If they are charged with no crime then they should be as free as we can make them, with all the rights we can possibly grant them, until we find them a home. It is no different than if we scooped up a thousand people from Poland or France. Innocent men are innocent men. We have no right to maintain them in prisoner's condition if they are not charged with crimes. We do have a responsibility to them.

http://www.google.com/search?q=gitmo+detainees+nowhere+to+go&rls=c
om.microsoft%3A*&oe=UTF-8&startIndex=&startPage=1&hl=en&nfpr=&spell=1&oq=gitmo+detainees+nowhere+to+go&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&gs_l=serp.3...4467.4467.0.5405.1.1.0.0.0.0.63.63.1.1.0...0.0.pKr7CC1Hwsc

Some we could send back, but they may face even worse conditions in their home countries. Others, well you just can't drop someone off in a country that does not want them unless you are will to accept what will happen to them.

I agree we should make the ones that are not dangerious and that are not going to be tried free. My point is the President does not have that power. Again I would ask if you think he does, cite that law.

Quote:
Originally posted by ANTHONYT:
The last time we did something like this, we rounded up a bunch of Japanese people who committed no crimes and put them into internment camps because of their ethnicity. Each time 'we have pushed aside laws and ideals' it has been a travesty and a mark of dishonor upon this nation. Now you want to hold it up as a model of action? We can not dismiss our violations with claims of expediency or because 'laws aren't perfect.' We have a responsibility to make our laws and actions as perfect as we can. We are not even trying to. That is criminal.

I'm not saying it is a model of action, or defending any single event such as Japanese internment. What I am saying is that to expect ideals stay inplace when bullets and bombs start flying is to expect something unreal.

Take the rules of war for example. They were put into place after WWII. They are all fine and good, but what do you think will happen to them if we ever are faced with another total war? They are going to go out the window in that situation.

Quote:
Originally posted by ANTHONYT:
Of course. If I could live anywhere on Earth I would choose to live here because we give rights to everyone, even those accused of crimes. I would choose to make my family here (and do), even knowing all the dangers involved in giving people rights. I make that choice every day that I don't move away.

There are many more dangerous places on the earth than the US. So saying that you make the choice I discribed every day by living here is a strech.

Quote:
Originally posted by ANTHONYT:
Let me ask you a more poignant question, Nick. Would you be willing to send your entire family to jail for the rest of their lives (or until I feel like releasing them) in order that I might feel safer?

If they were trying to do you harm I might. The issue is the difference between a persived threat and a real one. Don't think for a second that all the people that have been detained or killed where not looking to harm us.

Quote:
Originally posted by ANTHONYT:
I disagree that they can. I think we would exert whatever force was necessary to get our way, as we have done in the past. (This is not theory, this is what we actually did.) And if they 'need our help' it is because we created that situation for them. They didn't need our help before. We broke their knees precisely so that we could have an excuse to stick around and 'help' them.

Yes we created the problem. Picking up and leaving would just be leaving our mess. Now I find it hard to believe that people in Afganistan where better off under Taliban rule, or some Iraqies under Saddam.

As far as us exerting pressure to stay if asked to leave, why? What is the benifit? What do we get out of it?

Quote:
Originally posted by ANTHONYT:
Actually, it's the end of 2014, and only if Obama is still in charge and doesn't change his mind. So, we will be actively fighting for two more years. That is 'soon.' But will we be leaving? Not according to my research.

http://www.voanews.com/content/obama_administration_defends_afghanista
n_withdrawal_timeline/1105882.html

"“We are not going anyplace," he said. "We have an enduring presence that will be in Afghanistan and will continue to work with them on counter-terrorism.""

We plan to be there forever, basically. Like Iraq only moreso. They will 'need' us too. This is our 'soon.' Soon = Never. Meanwhile we are gearing up for more fighting in the region. New conflicts are on the horizon. Eternal war. This is what the United States has been transformed into by a handful of commercial jets and two handfuls of men. One handful of Terrorists, and one handful of American leaders. Leaders intent on selling us 'security' if we are willing to pay in the twin coins of liberty and endless bloodshed.

What would you have done? Pack up and leave totally. Do you think violence will stop? Look at Syria they are killing people by the thousands with no help from us. How right do you think it is that we sit on the sidelines and watch this when we could do something? War and conflict has always existed, and it always will.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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Thursday, June 7, 2012 1:58 AM

DALEK!

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Oh, dig your hole deeper, dope. So, a HARVARD business graduate are you? ZERO? You clearly, CLEARLY have no idea what you are discussing here.
Investing in life has a future; investing in death leads to ruin (long term).
You simplistic fool, continue to buy into the corporate-military-industrial-complex model.
And forget the looming world food shortages, the climate change imperatives, the inevitable fossil fuel depletion & fixate on THE BAD GUY that needs killin'.
We could have nearly ENDED world hunger (short term, at least) with the money we spent killing Saddam.

Economic THEORY. Gold standard. Rome fell but we won't.
What the fuck ever. You'll believe what you want.
Hope your home is paid off...

No not a Havard graduate, but not a ranting fool like you.

We are ingoring all those things, but that is not a part of this discussion. Ingoring those did not cause the economic colapse. You could at least try and stay on target.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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Thursday, June 7, 2012 2:00 AM

DALEK!

Quote:
Originally posted by ANTHONYT:
You must be familiar with the concept of 'blowback?'

Or to rephrase good old Orwell... "People sleep fitfully in their beds at night because corrupt men violate strangers on their behalf."

I sleep pretty well, and so do many others.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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Thursday, June 7, 2012 2:03 AM

DALEK!

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:

This IS a flagged site BTW,

Please, this site is a petting zoo when compared to others on the net.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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Thursday, June 7, 2012 2:04 AM