Insult Questions by BYTEMITE

I'm just trying to understand. I saw a few things, and it was twinging at my brain. I'm not asking anyone in particular to step forward, I'll take speculations from the girls here as much as I will from the guys.

I actually don't think it has much to do with being PC or not PC. But I do think there is something here. I want to hear some speculation from both the guys and the girls here, try to figure it out.

My initial guess is it's actually the result of two aspects of internet culture that clash with each other. And I think this also ties in with that thread that got posted about the gamer chicks and those insults.

But there might also be some kind of social expectation here, that a guy should just be able to "take" even the really nasty and hurtful insults.

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Monday, July 9, 2012 5:52 AM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

I'm not sure to what you're referring, Byte; it's been my observation that as much is hurled at males as at females...actually a bit more, if anything. Story, Mark and others go back and forth with Raptor more than anything else, and those are pretty much a quid-pro-quo between males--and they are the most prolific insults by far. Those who've complained about the snarking (myself one of the most vocal on the subject) have objected to them to or from either sex, and I really have seen no more insults hurled at men OR women. Kane went after me pretty regularly, and was unquestionably obscene about it, but it pretty much rolled off my back and I didn't see a lot of people calling him on it. The recent "cunt" was pretty far out (except for Kane), and he was called on it. I've stopped reading Six's posts except for the quotes put up by others, so I don't know who he's insulting these days. But I truly haven't seen more insults hurled at guys than women, and I haven't seen more complaints about those hurled at women more than men, so I'm not sure where you're coming from.

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Monday, July 9, 2012 6:56 AM

Oh absolutely the insults get hurled between the guys. But the thing is, they're not REMEMBERED as much as the insults that get hurled at the women.

That's what I'm asking about. Why is it some things are remembered more than others? It can't be that there's so much insults thrown between the guys that it just becomes lost amid a vague hate cloud of insults, because in that case the insults sent at the women wouldn't even be noticed among that. And I don't believe there really are THAT many insults here that insults are completely inconsequential beyond their contribution to more fighting.

But, it's the insults towards women that are chronicaled and kept track of. They're what's remembered. Why?

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Monday, July 9, 2012 7:12 AM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

"Oh absolutely the insults get hurled between the guys. But the thing is, they're not REMEMBERED as much as the insults that get hurled at the women."

Who remembers a snowflake in a blizzard?

Rhetorical metaphors aside, I think it's b/c IN GENERAL (myself excepted) women tend to not be nearly as insulting. So when an insult gets hurled at them, it seems undeserved, personal and noteworthy.

SignyM: I swear, if we really knew what was being decided about us in our absence, and how hosed the government is prepared to let us be, we would string them up.

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Monday, July 9, 2012 7:49 AM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

I'm afraid I still don't see it. I see Mike, and Rapor, referring to past insults hurled at them all the time, while I don't see that much mention of condemnation of insults toward the females here. I have to disagree with your original premise, from my observations. It does seem to me that MOST of the females here don't hurl obscenities or sexual references at males as much as the other way around, and certainly those kinds of insults toward you or Riona or Rose, etc., would be unwarranted because you don't hurl them at others, but aside from the "cunt" thing, I really don't see all that much "calling out" of insults toward women as compared to men. I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.

I certainly do think that the bullshit between Raptor and everyone else is so common that it rarely gets mentioned, so maybe it's the contrast between the guys, who insult on a regular basis, and the women, who don't insult as much or as virulently (with a few exceptions). But being called out for it? I might be missing something, I guess.

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Monday, July 9, 2012 7:53 AM

Quote:
Rhetorical metaphors aside, I think it's b/c IN GENERAL (myself excepted) women tend to not be nearly as insulting. So when an insult gets hurled at them, it seems undeserved, personal and noteworthy.

Maybe. I'm not quite sure I believe that women insult less or are less insulting or crude in general. However... There may be a thing going on where insults among the same gender aren't noticed as much as insults between genders. Maybe same gender insults are something the other gender doesn't want to get involved in, but insults between genders cause people to want to take sides?

But then there's definitely more side taking when it's a woman who's been insulted. And maybe what you're talking about is accurate in terms of it being a perception, not a reality? Maybe some kind of... Social concept or idealization at work here?

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Monday, July 9, 2012 7:57 AM

Quote:
But being called out for it?

This is getting closer to what I'm trying to say, yes.

I don't really want to name names, because I'm actually not trying to antagonize the people who got me thinking about this. It's just something I'm thinking about is all. There's some funny human behaviour thing at play here. Not bad, just... curious.

For the record, Niki, you're not who's got me thinking about this. It's a few of the guys on the board, I noticed some behaviours and tendencies.

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Monday, July 9, 2012 8:44 AM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Quote:
Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
Quote:
But being called out for it?

This is getting closer to what I'm trying to say, yes.

I don't really want to name names, because I'm actually not trying to antagonize the people who got me thinking about this. It's just something I'm thinking about is all. There's some funny human behaviour thing at play here. Not bad, just... curious.

For the record, Niki, you're not who's got me thinking about this. It's a few of the guys on the board, I noticed some behaviours and tendencies.

Hello,

I'm sexist. I don't know about anyone else, but I am.

I was raised with an honor code that suggested women should be honored and protected. To this day I open the door for my wife. (I also open it for strangers on occasion, of both sexes, but always for my wife.)

So insults against women grate especially with me, on account of my value system. There are posters here who have enraged me to the point that I needed to ignore them in order to keep myself from filling up with hatred towards them. They have something in common. They have all laid down grievous insults against women.

My special umbrage may be ironically interpreted as its own kind of insult against women. I'm not sure how else to feel, though. It's become a part of me.

--Anthony

Note to Self:
Raptor - woman testifying about birth control is a slut (the term fits.)
Six - Wow, isn't Niki quite the CUNT? And, yes, I spell that in all caps....
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.

“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -Thomas Szasz

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Monday, July 9, 2012 9:21 AM

Interesting.

And, Anthony, when you see women insulting each other, is it something you kind of want to avoid getting involved in?

And, do you kind of feel like when a guy is insulted, that they should be able to handle that?

(I'm testing my hypothesis)

This other idea I had is that there's two different internet cultures. One internet culture has men that have some kind of grudge against women, either personal or due to indirect observations of social issues. And there's another internet culture that sees women on the internet as "rare" and that they need to be protected from the other culture so they aren't run off.

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Monday, July 9, 2012 9:48 AM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Hello,

Generally, when I see a man insulted, I assume he would *want* to handle it himself. Though, if it's a terrible insult, or an insult of someone I respect or like, I may step in and say something out of a sense of camaraderie. Sometimes I have defended people I don't like against insults or unfair statements, but none of this happens with the same frequency that I get heated up over insults to women.

When I see women insulting each other, I usually do not want to get involved. I also often stand mystified, perhaps because I wrongly attribute superior social traits to women. It is especially surprising to see women go at each other in real life. I think that when women insult each other in real life, they tend to be rather mean about it. Crueller and more insidious than men. When my wife describes to me what is going on behind seemingly low-key female interactions, I am often shocked at the level of pettiness on display.

As to women being a precious commodity online... I feel that women who are comfortable enough to admit they are women online are a somewhat rare thing, and that comfort-level does need to be defended. It saddens me that an entire sex may feel uncomfortable in an environment because of the ill behavior of some, and I can easily imagine that many women in online settings are loathe to admit their sex. Either because they will be insulted or improper assumptions may be made about their capacity and sensibilities.

All of my feelings and perceptions and behaviors could easily be construed as products of lamentable gender bias, and just as bad in their own way as the naked hostility of some.

--Anthony

ETA: Bullies. I don't like bullies. I will even sometimes defend someone I despise if I feel they are being bullied or taken advantage of.

ETA2: Also, when two people I like argue in anger, I try to get involved quickly to resolve a potential misunderstanding. Kind of like, 'Hey, you don't know this guy, but he's a good guy. Maybe reach a little more to see where he's coming from. I don't think he's just being an ass out of spite.' Intentions. Intentions matter. I give a lot of leeway to people who seem to have good intentions, just as I revile those who seem to act out of malice.

Note to Self:
Raptor - woman testifying about birth control is a slut (the term fits.)
Six - Wow, isn't Niki quite the CUNT? And, yes, I spell that in all caps....
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.

“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -Thomas Szasz

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Monday, July 9, 2012 10:01 AM

AGENTROUKA

Byte, do you differentiate between insults that are essentially profanity or violent language hurled at the other person and ones that are not obscene?

I may be wrong but I don't think that the women on RWED at least are particularly prone to the former kind, and I suspect that insults that are particularly noticed are when the latter kind are aimed at women. I think there might be a contrast there that causes different reactions.

I personally find obscene language to be a form of verbal violence and tend to react much more strongly to that than to "polite" insults. Verbal violence (c-word, f-word, bitch, etc) to me suggests a level of personal aggression that is generally disproportionate to the cause and in my biased mind translates to anger issues and lack of self-control. Throw hints of misogyny into the mix and I tend to put that sort of person into very ugly categories, on- or offline. That itself may be also disproportionate but it is what happens and colors my reaction to such posts.

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Monday, July 9, 2012 10:06 AM

Quote:
Though, if it's a terrible insult, or an insult of someone I respect or like, I may step in and say something out of a sense of camaraderie.

Hmm. This fits within observations I have observed. Sometimes a guy is out of line, and one of the friends of the insulted will then say "dude, what is your problem?"

However, in most of insults among the same gender, people seem to fend for themselves. Generally, it feels awkward to witness such an exchange. The two are left to bicker, no one wants to choose sides just to get involved and then be insulted as well. There isn't much incentive to intervene. However, if insults or numbers appear to violate an inherent human sense of fairness, a person can be prompted to choose sides and intervene on the side of the underdog. Or, if a person is driven by peer pressure or wants approval, they might join in with the teasing.

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comfort-level does need to be defended. It saddens me that an entire sex may feel uncomfortable in an environment because of the ill behavior of some, and I can easily imagine that many women in online settings are loathe to admit their sex. Either because they will be insulted or improper assumptions may be made about their capacity and sensibilities.

I wonder how much of the reaction there is related to expectations? The girl hater expects a girl to be a bitch, and preemptively acts like a jerk, and has his ideas confirmed when she then reacts appropriately (but, like a bitch).

On the opposite end of the spectrum, there's always one player out there who asks female avatars if they want to cyber - surely he doesn't expect to be taken up on his solicitation, so he must have some other motivation. Does he just want to make everyone uncomfortable? Or maybe this person does actually expect results, and this is some form of in game prostitution and it doesn't matter the gender of the other party, only the fantasy? Is this person honestly looking for a girlfriend?

I don't really have much problem on the internet. I find that if you're clear up front about things it's a lot less awkward. Then again most of the guys I play video games with aren't ACTUALLY into girls, so maybe I've just dodged a bullet or something.

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Monday, July 9, 2012 10:06 AM

FREMDFIRMA

Anythony has a pretty good take on it, but I can sum it up in two words.

Vestigal Chivalry.

I suffer from some degree of it as well, multiplied by my own experiences with helping the traumatized, I'll generally stand to a little faster, a little harder, when the target of insult or abuse is female, sure.
(Although not as lighting fast and viciously as I will defend youth, obviously)
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/EvenEvilHasStandards

Not to mention the other two.
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/EvilVirtues
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/VillainousValour

You don't have to be a BAD guy, to be a badguy, yanno.

EDIT: Speakin o which, that Bimbo Palin is gonna be here, just down the road this weekend, and being that how I consider any female who sides with the GOP now that their intent to dehumanize women has been thrown public in all it's awful glory, imma see about having a good mock or two - despite that they're fronting this hate behind a pretend drive to collect funds for the wounded soldiers their own policies left swinging (which 95% of the take gets funnelled into their campaign coffers, mind you), yeahhhh...
*hisssssssss*
MY turf, dammit!

-Frem

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Monday, July 9, 2012 10:21 AM

Quote:
Byte, do you differentiate between insults that are essentially profanity or violent language hurled at the other person and ones that are not obscene?

Yes. And I try also to equate things that I consider equivalent, like someone telling a girl on here they should be raped, which I think has happened to both me and Niki, and someone telling PN that he should be raped in prison. I consider both equally offensive.

We don't often have invectives like cunt thrown around in general (and cunt actually isn't a word that really bothers me? It doesn't really have any meaning for me), but, really, is it that different a word from asshole? Both are simply somewhat gross holes in the human body, that in the language of hostility someone might suggest something being forcibly crammed up them. And then when you have gems like kaneman and River6213 used to throw, they could get really graphic and dirty.

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at least are particularly prone to the former kind

Heh. I've never had any reason to go into this on the board, but I can cuss an obscenely crude blue streak if I feel like it.

I also actually like "bitch" as I feel it's something to be proud of. I shrug if I hear it - it is accurate and I have no cause to dispute.

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to me suggests a level of personal aggression that is generally disproportionate to the cause and in my biased mind translates to anger issues and lack of self-control.

Well, you're probably accurate here in regards to me. But... If this is so, then presumably people should feel less inclined to defend me from insults towards myself, right?

Or maybe you already do? I suppose I am pretty good at flying into a rage at any perceived slight and defending myself on my own.

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Throw hints of misogyny into the mix and I tend to put that sort of person into very ugly categories, on- or offline.

For me, misogyny is less so much the words used, and more the attitude and the intent. I don't really abide the nice guys who think women are dumb and always choose the jerks, or the guys who decide that they should BE jerks to attract women, or who have obvious simmering resentment issues.

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Monday, July 9, 2012 10:28 AM

Frem: I think there's been some argument here before about whether Palin is a bimbo, or a quisling. I think the later - although I also suspect Palin has some emotional problems and is petty and can't take criticism whatsoever. But... Bimbo. Hmm. I don't know if she is one. I think she's very calculating.

It's actually interesting my own reaction here. I definitely don't LIKE Palin, but I confess, whenever I hear a girl called a bimbo, I have a knee jerk reaction of my own against that.

Perhaps this is a by proxy thing, and as a woman who wants to be seen as intelligent, I feel the need to defend the intelligence of other women?

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Monday, July 9, 2012 10:54 AM

AGENTROUKA

Quote:
Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
Yes. And I try also to equate things that I consider equivalent, like someone telling a girl on here they should be raped, which I think has happened to both me and Niki, and someone telling PN that he should be raped in prison. I consider both equally offensive.

I agree with this whole-heartedly.

Quote:

We don't often have invectives like cunt thrown around in general (and cunt actually isn't a word that really bothers me? It doesn't really have any meaning for me), but, really, is it that different a word from asshole? Both are simply somewhat gross holes in the human body, that in the language of hostility someone might suggest something being forcibly crammed up them.

I guess I disagree there. I think of asshole as gender neutral and do not immediately associate it with, if you will, penetration. *shudder* Neither do I the other word, actually, but I despise it as a misogynist word nonetheless. It may be biased because I tend to hear it only in contexts of aggression, but it seems to carry an air of particular vulgarity and disparagement toward female anatomy, which I don't find mirrored as severely in gender equivalent insults like 'dick'.

Quote:

Heh. I've never had any reason to go into this on the board, but I can cuss an obscenely crude blue streak if I feel like it.

I believe you. But in the context of the forum and I think there is probably a lot less cussing done by female posters in general.

Quote:

Well, you're probably accurate here in regards to me. But... If this is so, then presumably people should feel less inclined to defend me from insults towards myself, right?

I was not at all thinking of you when I wrote that. But I have to say that self-directed aggression is another matter entirely and I understand why people would rush to interfere with that.

Quote:

For me, misogyny is less so much the words used, and more the attitude and the intent. I don't really abide the nice guys who think women are dumb and always choose the jerks, or the guys who decide that they should BE jerks to attract women, or who have obvious simmering resentment issues.

I'm not saying I approve of those things. (And often enough beneath that veil of chivalry or "I'm a gentleman" there's a host of expectations that are anything but respectful, and woe if you defy them.) (I am NOT thinking of Anthony here, who seems to practice on a level of aknowledged, benign bias.)

I also don't think that misogyny exhausts itself in four-letter words. What troubles me about verbal violence is that it doesn't even use a veil to hide the naked aggression, which suggests a lack of awareness or care that this sort of attitude is supposed to be frowned upon. I find that more troubling than less aggressive forms of sexism because those at least don't carry this hint of violence.

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Monday, July 9, 2012 11:11 AM

Quote:
but it seems to carry an air of particular vulgarity and disparagement toward female anatomy, which I don't find mirrored as severely in gender equivalent insults like 'dick'.

The only time I hear that one is always in the context of "you're such a..." which is generally probably the same context as the female distaff counterpart. So those two I also see as similar, and similar levels of offensive. Which for me, I don't consider them all that offensive. I tend to find "go die" or references to rape to be the most offensive and inflammatory things said on the internet.

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But I have to say that self-directed aggression is another matter entirely and I understand why people would rush to interfere with that.

Oh, uh, that's not what I meant. Actually I think most people are probably thinking "okay, get ON with it already" when I wax into the self-loathing. But what I meant was more I'm more free with the insults, so maybe people are less inclined to defend me when someone else insults me.

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(And often enough beneath that veil of chivalry or "I'm a gentleman" there's a host of expectations that are anything but respectful, and woe if you defy them.)

Oh man. Those guys is messed up. Then they try to turn it around and gaslight and get all manipulative and condescending on me when I call them out, and their ass is my psychological warfare and one sentence devastation. I don't play that game.

(Interesting side consideration, is Mal one of these guys?)

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I am NOT thinking of Anthony here, who seems to practice on a level of acknowledged, benign bias.

It's not a HARMLESS practice exactly, but it is fairly harmless relative to other practices on this board and in real life, and Anthony seems self aware and I give him credit for that. It's far more damaging when there's no self awareness.

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Monday, July 9, 2012 12:31 PM

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.

I'm like Anthony, nasty insults towards women especially annoy me. Like the thread about the verbal abuse female gamers receive. Some reasons why, off the top of my head:

1) Nasty insults directed at women are often misogynistic in tone/origin. Insults directed at men are very rarely man-hating.
2) Women are more likely to be hurt by verbal attacks?
3) In the real world where human instincts have evolved (not on the internet), verbal attacks often have an implied threat of physical violence behind them. If a man is viciously verbally assaulting a woman in the street in a physically intimidating way, my instincts will consider that a form of physical violence. Needless to say I don't like physical violence towards women.

It's not personal. It's just war.

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Monday, July 9, 2012 1:46 PM

HKCAVALIER

Hey Byte,

This discussion puts me in mind of the movie "Saving Private Ryan." My interpretation of the movie was that when Private Ryan lost both of his older brothers in the war, he became something of a "designated human." The loss of his mother's two other sons constituted an emotional critical mass which even the Army had to notice. Suddenly, Private Ryan was just a little less expendable than every other soldier, and those who were sent to retrieve him were granted a kind of sacred status as the men who would save this human from the horrors of war. It's a marvelous, paradoxical and poignantly ironic film about how expendable men make themselves.

It amazes me always to see how men enthusiastically dehumanize themselves and others. You know the old joke where a woman is complaining about being objectified and the man says, "What's so bad about being objectified? I'd love it if you objectified me a little!" Men don't get it. They just. Don't. Get it.

Men, in this culture (and pretty much every other culture on the planet at the moment), from the cradle onward, are taught to be profoundly uncomfortable with crying. Maybe it seems a little thing, but that little thing has far-reaching implications. "Big boys don't cry" is a little like being told that men don't pee. It means a lot of stuff that needs to get expelled just doesn't. Toxins build up, systems break down. Even without being told the hundred different lies about boys and crying that every boy hears, we learn it from how our fathers' bodies behave in the presence of tears--their own (even if a boy never sees his father's tears, he learns to sense their proximity and learns the methods his father has of suppressing them--I didn't see my father cry, sober, until I was 25), their sons', their wives', anyone's tears--it's something to see. When an entire gender is forbidden to cry without losing something of their identity--as male, as men--really effed up things start happening.

(I don't mean to reduce mens' effeduppedness to a single issue, but it illustrates my point.)

One thing's for sure, they can certainly get to hating the "designated criers" in the world, a.k.a., the females.

Men swim in a sea of one-upmanship and insult, in part, intended to further numb and toughen them against emotion. It's all part of membership in the club. To complain or even call attention to how it feels likewise loses them "masculinity points." What it comes down to is the systematic destruction of their inner-lives.

And then the internet was invented and all of a sudden, men had an outlet, a wholly anonymous pressure valve for all their pent up frustration and ambivalence and their homoerotic hysteria and jealous rage at women and their

feelings. Just think how emotional these men are on the internet. Do you imagine they're one tenth as expressive in their real lives?

So anyway. When men attack each other on the internet it's just hazing, par for the course; the constant reinforcement of the norms of these men's violated inner-lives. Women are not a part of that club. So a lot of men, numb to their own subjectivity, nonetheless can see it plain as day in women. Women are the "designated humans" of the Internet Wars.

(And then there are adults like Anthony and Our Mutual Frem who are integrated enough not to need the internet as a safety valve for their emotions. And of course, as always, there are a hundred meaningful exceptions to generalizations like these.)

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

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Monday, July 9, 2012 3:27 PM

Hmm. Maybe this is why I vent all my darkness at you all. I'm kind of a stoic, and also tend to look on displays of emotion with contempt.

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Monday, July 9, 2012 4:14 PM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Quote:
Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
Hmm. Maybe this is why I vent all my darkness at you all. I'm kind of a stoic, and also tend to look on displays of emotion with contempt.

Hello,

Yes, that's why I no longer tell you how much I value you and enjoy your contributions on this forum. Never mind any warm feeling of love for a fellow wanderer who I perceive to have a good heart.

I'm not above teasing, however.

--Anthony

Note to Self:
Raptor - woman testifying about birth control is a slut (the term fits.)
Six - Wow, isn't Niki quite the CUNT? And, yes, I spell that in all caps....
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.

“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -Thomas Szasz

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Monday, July 9, 2012 4:20 PM

Aaaaanthony, it's still SAYING it if you TALK about it! *whine*

Here, I grant upon you a pair of sunglasses. My understanding is that this automatically increases aloofness and decreases humanity. You gain a plus 2 to all social interactions.

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Monday, July 9, 2012 4:55 PM

FREMDFIRMA

*snicker*

S'why I like you Byte - you "get" my ironic side-jokes!
Yes, I slipped "Bimbo" in there in a vaguely hypocritical fashion JUST to see if anyone would call me on it, and I concur that the term "Quisling" is in fact more appropriate, although that is also one of the black-box-buttons which just the use of at all will set all the programmed RightWingNuts into a foaming frenzy - not that such is a bad thing, necessarily.

I certainly don't like Palin, and have very little respect for any woman who would purposely align themselves with a political movement bent on reducing them to chattel though, and that has less to do with Vestigal Chivalry than it does me trying to years to elevate Youth OUT of that category as the last bit of dumbass prejudice we should have outgrown by now... only to watch these regressive asswads try to start cramming people back in, cause you KNOW minorities would be next, argh.

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Heh. I've never had any reason to go into this on the board, but I can cuss an obscenely crude blue streak if I feel like it.

I used to drive a cab, BELIEVE me, when I get to the "blue streak" (very rare) it tends to cause the same reaction as the tornado sirens going off...

Oh and HKCav ?

It's kind of you to say so - but I really *am* emotionally stunted, and all to bloody well aware of it, one of the many nicknames thrown at me is "Terminator" cause of my zero-emotion "game face" while on duty, even in the middle of epic disaster, which isn't so much successfully holding my cool in the face of adversity, as not having sufficient emotional range to NEED suppressing them.

I've torn a strip off many for taking my BAD example and emotional damage as proper aloof reserve, which is damn ironic since it's one of the few things which'll make me angry enough to emotion to be obvious - which is kinda meta, sure.

The running joke is that I only have three/four emotions.
Contentment/Annoyance (on a sliding scale) and Rage.

Number four is "Pastry", which draws a serious WTF reaction from folks since I prettymuch morph into Hinaichigo, which comes across as plain flat out WEIRD to folks who don't know me well.

-Frem

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Monday, July 9, 2012 5:04 PM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Quote:
Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
Aaaaanthony, it's still SAYING it if you TALK about it! *whine*

Here, I grant upon you a pair of sunglasses. My understanding is that this automatically increases aloofness and decreases humanity. You gain a plus 2 to all social interactions.

Hello,

Actually, it's a +4 if you are from Miami and you once worked for a police department. ;-)

--Anthony

ETA: I never noticed how hilarious it was until I saw a dozen of these things strung together.

Note to Self:
Raptor - woman testifying about birth control is a slut (the term fits.)
Six - Wow, isn't Niki quite the CUNT? And, yes, I spell that in all caps....
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.

“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -Thomas Szasz

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Monday, July 9, 2012 5:12 PM

+15 approval!

Also, all comments made to Bytemite are now retroactively ironic. It is the power of the sunglasses. These are the rules and they are immutable.

Wear the sunglasses. Be the sunglasses.

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Monday, July 9, 2012 5:21 PM

Frem: Ah, okay, I thought that you might be taking a shot at yourself there, but I wasn't 100% sure. I was testing the water to check.

Quote:
I certainly don't like Palin, and have very little respect for any woman who would purposely align themselves with a political movement bent on reducing them to chattel though, and that has less to do with Vestigal Chivalry than it does me trying to years to elevate Youth OUT of that category as the last bit of dumbass prejudice we should have outgrown by now.

Yeah... Before I was on the board I was a lot harsher with my opinion about the Palins and Anne Coulter. I even used to make bristol abstinence only jokes that were in a mean spirit. I still don't like any of them, but I like to think I'm more detached now and less swayed by what I'm "supposed" to feel, if you know what I mean.

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It's kind of you to say so - but I really *am* emotionally stunted

But, on the other hand, functional, and maybe that's the best any of us can ask for in this crazy messed up world.

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"Pastry"

OMGWHERE *Frem and Byte stampede*

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Monday, July 9, 2012 6:52 PM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht

I wish I could do one of my experiments on this, but its too complicated to think of something for.

Byte I can't help but say nice things to you sometimes, sorry but I cannnnnnnn't. I suspect Anthony falls into this category as well, so cut him some slack.

I have Kathy Bates on speed dial, mwa ha ha ha (in exaggeratedly evil voice)

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya.

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Monday, July 9, 2012 7:25 PM

You know, I'm not starved for attention. I'm not looking for someone to tell me that I'm sane and stable, because I know I'm not.

I'm looking for someone who will tell me "yes, go die already, enough of you whining up the place, do something worthwhile with your otherwise pointless life."

Stop with all your pity. Enough. Seriously. You know that I'm unpleasant. I know that I'm unpleasant. We gain nothing by pretending otherwise. And certainly this does me no good.

I see now that I can't ask any of you for respect, because none of you respect me. But am I going to have to ask all of you to stop talking to me? Because that's becoming an increasingly attractive option.

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Monday, July 9, 2012 8:44 PM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Hello Byte,

You can think of yourself anything you like, and you can say anything about yourself that pleases you.

But you can't tell anyone else what they are allowed to think of you.

If we happen to like you, then tough. Get over it. We really don't need your permission to think you're swell.

And that's... the way it is.

--Anthony

Note to Self:
Raptor - woman testifying about birth control is a slut (the term fits.)
Six - Wow, isn't Niki quite the CUNT? And, yes, I spell that in all caps....
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.

“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -Thomas Szasz

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Tuesday, July 10, 2012 5:04 AM

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.

Quote:
You know that I'm unpleasant

I don't think there's a single person on this board that thinks that. Certainly I don't recall anyone saying as much (besides you). And this is the internet, where people are not usually shy about conveying dislike.

You're in a minority of one Byte, it might be time to consider you're wrong - and that there's nothing inherently detestable about you.

It's not personal. It's just war.

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Tuesday, July 10, 2012 5:37 AM

6IXSTRINGJACK

Feel free to strike me down Byte, but I think this post has to do with things I've said here.....

"Feminist" breaches I have made against other RWED'ers....

Things I wouldn't give to shit's thought about saying to my male co-workers on the night shift because everything is what it is.

I even said that I left my old job for my new one because not only did I not want to drive 20 miles round trip for 8.50 an hour, but since I'd be working as a security guard in a hospital in East Chicago, I'd be the only white guy in the building (with a uniform, on top of it).

What did my black co-workers say?

It wasn't retalitory remarks, that's for sure......

They said, paraphrasing, "I sure wouldn't want to be the only black security guard in an all white hospital"

I F-ing know my people, and I do whatever I can to help them out on the job. They know that. And if something slips loose from my mouth they don't take it personally.

Two of the black guys I work with call me Nigger and I call them Cracker.

I sure as shit don't do any work to make them look better when I've got my own to do, but they hold their own and don't need it.

Women just don't get that shit....

They want to start a militia about everything....

Thanks Byte, just for being a voice of reason for the common man/woman on this forum instead of posting lofty party line BS

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Tuesday, July 10, 2012 6:33 AM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

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I think of asshole as gender neutral

Neither do I. I call idiot drivers that all the time, maybe because "asshole" has a different connotation to me, something along the lines of "jerk".

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For me, misogyny is less so much the words used, and more the attitude and the intent.

I agree with that, also.

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What troubles me about verbal violence is that it doesn't even use a veil to hide the naked aggression

And that as well.

I don't see Anthony's attitude as being that benign either. It doesn't surprise me, from what I've gotten to know of him, but when I read it my hackles went up...just a teeeeny bit. I've never had a man defend me, verbally or otherwise, and I hope I never do. It's nice when someone opens a door for me, but women do as well at times, and I do for women. I want to be a equal, not protected or have some male seeing me as something other than a human being. Dunno if that's what you meant, Byte, but it's how I feel. Chivalry was nice at one time, and had its purpose since women were kept weak and in need of protecting, but we'll never be truly equal until men allow us to fight our own battles.

I'm not crazy about KPO's remark that women (may be) more easily hurt by verbal attacks. I'm certainly not, and I don't expect anyone else to be, female or otherwise. As I see it, there are some PEOPLE (admittedly more often than not female) who are more vulnerable, and I'll often speak up because of that, but to me it's part of their character, not because they're female per se. I've known a guy in England who's been on my website (and the previous websites from which we came) who was incredibly easy to upset--even by remarks that weren't intended as insults. Admittedly he, and a number of other guys I've known on the internet, was more self-aware and less "manly" if you will than others, and he had his own mental issues, so I kind of took him under my wing and we're still friends to this day, some ten years later. I've actually been quite pleased to find a good number of men on the internet who aren't "typical" men, who are more self-aware and sensitive. It's been an honor to know them.

KPO, if you took

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In the real world where human instincts have evolved (not on the internet), verbal attacks often have an implied threat of physical violence behind them. If a man is viciously verbally assaulting a woman in the street in a physically intimidating way, my instincts will consider that a form of physical violence. Needless to say I don't like physical violence towards women.

and replaced "man" or "woman" with "people", you'd be right on. How often do verbal attacks turn into violence between men? That happens even more often than verbal attacks toward women turning violent, doesn't it?

Cav, everything you said. Jim came from rural Idaho and brought some of that with him...he's lived in CA since university and it mellowed those attitudes a LOT, but it pops up now and again. His brother Curt came out much later, and it was pretty obvious in him. To the point where, when he married Jo (he had agreed to do so just to keep her in the country and that it was to be totally platonic), he immediately began to view her differently and expect her to be "wifey". It shocked us all, and he packed up and left soon thereafter. Admittedly there were other factors at work, but it was nonetheless a big surprise to all of us.

The crying thing was especially evident in Jim...when his mother died out in Idaho, he left the house and walked up and down the street in the dark, crying. He just couldn't do it in front of me, and I, as well, never saw him cry unless he was drunk until some years ago. He's undergone a major change in attitude and is different now, but it did used to frustrate me back then.

There's also the belief in many men that women cry as a "weapon" to get what they want, bear in mind. I'm sure some do, but having been extra emotional because of my bipolarity, I can assure you that for many (perhaps most?) of us, crying is a release we don't plan on and/or can't control very easily, which for some (many?) of us is very frustrating. Also frustrating that it's viewed that way by some men. For me, after many years I realized what a release it is, so periodically when too much built up and I started to cry for no logical reason, I recognized it for what it was, went somewhere private and let it go. It really helped lessen the amount of toxicity I carried around and didn't even realized I had.

And yes, Byte, the internet is a BIG source of emotional venting for many people. It often feels safer to let it all hang out to some strangers, (especially if we're of the mind--as I am--that nobody on the internet can hurt meus) than to tell those closest to us how we feel. Somehow it's less threatening to many of us; which also explains the Fuckwad Theory; many rude people wouldn't behave anything LIKE they do on the internet in real life.

Frem, just like KPO's statement,

Quote:
have very little respect for any woman who would purposely align themselves with a political movement bent on reducing them to chattel though

if you replace "woman" with "person", and found a more gender-neutral word for "chattel", that holds true for ALL people, not just women, doesn't it?

Byte, when it comes t

Quote:
I'm looking for someone who will tell me "yes, go die already, enough of you whining up the place, do something worthwhile with your otherwise pointless life."

Stop with all your pity. Enough. Seriously. You know that I'm unpleasant. I know that I'm unpleasant. We gain nothing by pretending otherwise. And certainly this does me no good.

I could get all psychobabble on you as to where that comes from, but I won't. Thing is, as far as I'm concerned and as far as I can tell, nobody here pities you, nor does anything they write toward you indicate their liking you is out of pity. Certainly not me! I have a certain awareness that you, too, suffer from some of the stuff I do, but outside that, I call you out when I perceive (or misperceive) something, and at the same time appreciate things you say with which I agree or find illuminating. I think that's true for some here; for others, it might be a sense of protectiveness, which isn't pity either, it's caring about someone and (maybe subconsciously) trying to change that bad "inner voice" which makes you believe what you do about yourself. All I can tell you is in my opinion, it's never pity. The closest you can come is perhaps "kindness", but what I see in this thread at least is simple honesty.

As for

Quote:
I see now that I can't ask any of you for respect, because none of you respect me. But am I going to have to ask all of you to stop talking to me? Because that's becoming an increasingly attractive option.

I'm not sure where that comes from. Is it because people have said nice things to/about you? I know it's hard for me to hear people say nice things about me when I don't believe they're true or I think they're just being nice--I could spout a lot of psychobabble about where that comes from too, but again I'll refrain. But I know the kindest thing you can give back to them is a simple "thank you" or "thank you for your kind words", because when you think about it, they're giving you a gift (as long as they're being honest); wouldn't you rather give them back a gift than throw it in their faces? By the way, I don't think there's anyone here (among the good people, anyway) who doesn't respect you, whatever else they may feel about you.

Sorry to ramble; I'm coming in late and wanted to respond to stuff all at once. I'll stop now.

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Tuesday, July 10, 2012 6:56 AM

Good points on the thread topic Niki. I usually rebuke people if they try to come to my defense, girl or guy. I just don't stand for that.

Unfortunately, I appear to have given you all the wrong impression of what kind of person I am, and right now I see two options, and one of those options is burning every single bridge I have here. I think it's going rather well, it's a good project.

But also fortunately for all of you, I'm incredibly unreliable, and may get distracted before I succeed in alienating all of you. It's kind of a race to the finish. However, my success here is not necessary to the greater plan, which is already in action. It's that good of a plan.

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Tuesday, July 10, 2012 7:16 AM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Hello,

I wonder why it's so important to you, Byte, that people should think you are awful.

--Anthony

Note to Self:
Raptor - woman testifying about birth control is a slut (the term fits.)
Six - Wow, isn't Niki quite the CUNT? And, yes, I spell that in all caps....
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.

“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -Thomas Szasz

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Tuesday, July 10, 2012 7:23 AM

6IXSTRINGJACK

Quote:
Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
Good points on the thread topic Niki. I usually rebuke people if they try to come to my defense, girl or guy. I just don't stand for that.

Unfortunately, I appear to have given you all the wrong impression of what kind of person I am, and right now I see two options, and one of those options is burning every single bridge I have here. I think it's going rather well, it's a good project.

But also fortunately for all of you, I'm incredibly unreliable, and may get distracted before I succeed in alienating all of you. It's kind of a race to the finish. However, my success here is not necessary to the greater plan, which is already in action. It's that good of a plan.

TOTALLY let me in on the plan Byte :)

Forces of "reason" on either side beside Signy have left me to the dust too.

They're far too sickeningly "stuck" to their minimum wage rituals...

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Tuesday, July 10, 2012 7:25 AM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Bang on, Anthony, good one for picking up on that. Moi aussi, tho' given my involvement in psychology and what I've learned from it, I could probably answer it for you. But I won't subject you or Byte to my opinion on the matter.

All this bullshit about a "plan" is ridiculous; who really cares if you have some nefarious reason for whatever you post? Only you, Byte, and respectfully (or not), I think you're full of shit.

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Tuesday, July 10, 2012 7:32 AM

Jack, stop flirting, we already know you like the guys. :P

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Tuesday, July 10, 2012 7:34 AM

Quote:
Only you, Byte, and respectfully (or not), I think you're full of shit.

Plan is working perfectly. :)

See, now that I'm being honest about who I am we also get to see who everyone else is too. All of the social niceties about our relationships are lifted, and we can play out the roles we were meant to have, as adversaries.

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Tuesday, July 10, 2012 7:44 AM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Hello,

Are you remotely aware of how low you would need to sink in order to make the general population here dislike you? (Have you seen your competition?) Especially since you have declared such to be your express purpose, and people are now liable to make allowances? Are you willing to invest that much time and effort into generating antagonism?

And if so... what is the payoff? Why is being liked scarier than being hated? Is hate easier to trust?

--Anthony

Note to Self:
Raptor - woman testifying about birth control is a slut (the term fits.)
Six - Wow, isn't Niki quite the CUNT? And, yes, I spell that in all caps....
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.

“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -Thomas Szasz

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Tuesday, July 10, 2012 7:52 AM

The plan is to let you all see what I am, I would have thought you'd all appreciate my honesty. It's not my fault if you mistook me for someone nice or normal. Well, maybe it is. :)

Competition, bah, I haven't even gotten started yet. Just you wait Anthony, you'll regret everything you said. You'll wish you never knew me. And if I have to, I'll take you down with me.

Anyone else want to talk about how NICE I am?

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Tuesday, July 10, 2012 8:01 AM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Jezus, Byte, you ARE full of shit today. What you get from me is honesty; I agree with you when I agree with you, disagree when I disagree, call you on what I feel is bullshit, and give you credit where it's due. Where you get the idea that's all "social niceties" is beyond me. I don't play games on the internet; I am who I am and behave pretty much the same as I do IRL. You can choose to believe that or not, it's my own choice in how I would deal with the internet. I've never hid my real feelings with "social niceties" and I've tried to clear up misunderstandings when they happen. Today you're pissing me off--obviously intentionally from what you say about your "plan"--but I doubt it will work, because people here just aren't wnat you seem to think they are. It's working with me because I've respected you enough to take you at your word rather than consider you an enemy and ignoring you; I think this is some kind of silliness you'll either regret or forget about, and I'm pissed that you're playing some kind of game for some purpose. JMHO. Anything you post will usually be taken at face value by me and I try to respond accordingly, I don't use "social niceties" with people I've gotten to know, on the internet or otherwise. I've never considered you an adversary; sometimes we get into heated arguments, but that's what happens to everyone on the internet, and on other occasions I've agreed with you and complimented you when I'm impressed with what you wrote or how you wrote it. That doesn't change, tho' if it turns out you really have been faking all along and somehow consider yourself an adversary to everyone here, you will have lost my respect and trust.

For you to believe that everyone's behavior here has anything to do with "social niceties" is a reflection of you, and nobody else. People who are nice here are nice people--even on the internet, you can get a take on them; people who are assholes here are either assholes IRL or enjoy taking on some kind of personna to vent things they wouldn't say IRL. But it's FAR more likely that the nasty ones aren't that nasty in real life on the internet than that people pretend to be nice! It doesn't work for long, I've been on enough websites to watch it happen. How many websites have you been on--if it was more than one, you should have figured that out by now.

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Tuesday, July 10, 2012 8:03 AM

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.

"You want to meet the REAL ME now?"

What your post reminded me of Byte :-)

Quote:
It's not my fault if you mistook me for someone nice or normal.

Niceness and normalness are overrated.

It's not personal. It's just war.

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Tuesday, July 10, 2012 8:05 AM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Good questions Anthony; can you see from her reply what's going on? The mere thought that she can make everyone change how they already think about her is interesting; that she thinks she can take anyone "down" with her--least of all YOU!--is another clue. Shouldn't be hard to figure it out if you know anything about psychology.

And it should also help answer the "why" you asked before, if you think about it. If you want to know more, e-mail me.

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Tuesday, July 10, 2012 8:08 AM

Oh, this isn't a game. This is very real and will have a number of consequences, mostly for me. But this is a necessary step.

I think that I might be about ready to initiate the next step, but I have to see if I've done enough yet. I do know that no one has yet figured out what I'm up to, I threw out a lot of misleads to disguise the trail.

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Tuesday, July 10, 2012 8:32 AM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Quote:
I would have thought you'd all appreciate my honesty.

Hello,

I'm not sure how honest you've been. You haven't addressed why you feel the need to be disliked.

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Shouldn't be hard to figure it out if you know anything about psychology.

I don't know much about psychology, but I try to have empathy. It's usually enough to help me connect to people.

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But this is a necessary step.

Well, keep up the honesty. Why is it necessary?

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I have to see if I've done enough yet.

Have you done anything yet?

Quote:
Just you wait Anthony, you'll regret everything you said. You'll wish you never knew me. And if I have to, I'll take you down with me.

I hope you will forgive me if I tell you this all sounds a bit theatrical. I don't want to belittle you or your feelings, but the way you're choosing to communicate here (with obfuscatingly vague and 'ominous' language) reminds me of various films I've seen.

You can just tell me what you mean, why you feel what you feel and why you want what you want. Plainly. I'll listen.

--Anthony

Note to Self:
Raptor - woman testifying about birth control is a slut (the term fits.)
Six - Wow, isn't Niki quite the CUNT? And, yes, I spell that in all caps....
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.

“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -Thomas Szasz

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Tuesday, July 10, 2012 8:36 AM

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.

Quote:
I'm not crazy about KPO's remark that women (may be) more easily hurt by verbal attacks. I'm certainly not,

That's it I suppose, it depends on the person. A nasty verbal attack on a gentle soul is a bigger sin than an attack on a very robust/unruffled person. I wouldn't leap to the defence of a woman I knew could handle it (and I can think of times when I haven't). It's true that not all women are delicate creatures - in fact probably few of them are - but all in all if a person spent a whole day verbally abusing women on the internet, he would probably do more damage than if he had spent a whole day specifically abusing men.

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How often do verbal attacks turn into violence between men?

But physically, a man versus a woman is a mismatch (more often than not). Just like, though not necessarily to the same extent as, a man against a child, or a man against an old person. True, a man might be attacked and find himself mis-matched, in which case I would want to help him out. But something in me says that women ought to be especially protected from that kind of physical violence. If there were two mis-matched fights going on at the same time, against one man and one woman, I would choose to intervene in the fight with the woman. Or the one with the smaller aggresser.

It's not personal. It's just war.

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Tuesday, July 10, 2012 8:44 AM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Quote:
Or the one with the smaller aggresser.

Hello,

I suppose this enhances the prospects for success. ;-)

--Anthony

Note to Self:
Raptor - woman testifying about birth control is a slut (the term fits.)
Six - Wow, isn't Niki quite the CUNT? And, yes, I spell that in all caps....
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.

“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -Thomas Szasz

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Tuesday, July 10, 2012 8:45 AM