Moscow's waking up..finally by Connorflynn

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
I take it you want to kill all Muslims?

ROFLMAO..

That's like asking me, after I say "I think rabid racoons should be annihilated, because they are a nemesis to humanity" and you say, "I take it you want to kill all racoons?" WTF!

I want every single Islamafascist dead. Those who use terrorist tactics (because the don't believe in true diplomacy, the cowards), like suicide bombs, hostage taking of innocents and then the execution of said innocents. They are Rabid Animals. Sick beyond repair. No room for re-education. No room for diplomacy. They are serial killers who hide behind their "strict interpretation of Islam" or the parody of it.

Is that clear enough for you?

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Wednesday, September 8, 2004 4:25 AM

NAKEDANDARTICULATE

Quote:
Originally posted by Connorflynn:
Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
I take it you want to kill all Muslims?

ROFLMAO.. Are you that fucking Dense or is it that you sympathize with these evil treacherous bastards?

That's like asking me, after I say "I think rabid racoons should be annihilated, because they are a nemesis to humanity" and you say, "I take it you want to kill all racoons?" WTF!

I want every single Islamafascist dead. Those who use terrorist tactics (because the don't believe in true diplomacy, the cowards), like suicide bombs, hostage taking of innocents and then the execution of said innocents. They are Rabid Animals. Sick beyond repair. No room for re-education. No room for diplomacy. They are serial killers who hide behind their "strict interpretation of Islam" or the parody of it.

Is that clear enough for you?

"Okay,look all i'm saying is one of us needs to take a little nap."--LOKI(Matt Damon)from DOGMA

"Hamsters is nice."

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Wednesday, September 8, 2004 6:21 AM

CYBERSNARK

Quote:
Originally posted by Connorflynn:
Islamafascists are willing to blow themselves up,

"Would everyone willing to die for their God please do so now? Thank you."

-----
We applied the cortical electrodes but were unable to get a neural reaction from either patient.

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Wednesday, September 8, 2004 6:45 AM

So, wait, is this guy seriously saying he wants all muslims to die? Did he REALLY say that?

Sorry, the OP was somewhat hard to understand.

___________________________________
Jayne: "Know what the chain of command is? It's the chain I beat you with till you understand who's in command."

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Wednesday, September 8, 2004 6:51 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Fireflew:
So, wait, is this guy seriously saying he wants all muslims to die? Did he REALLY say that?

Sorry, the OP was somewhat hard to understand.

___________________________________
Jayne: "Know what the chain of command is? It's the chain I beat you with till you understand who's in command."

OP?

Pro-America, Pro-Democracy, Pro-Israeli, Pro-Freedom, Pro-Capitalism. Anti-Terrorist, Anti-Socialist, Anti-Dumbass

"Let Freedom Reign, death to Islamafascism"

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Wednesday, September 8, 2004 6:54 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Connorflynn:
Quote:
Originally posted by Fireflew:
So, wait, is this guy seriously saying he wants all muslims to die? Did he REALLY say that?

Sorry, the OP was somewhat hard to understand.

___________________________________
Jayne: "Know what the chain of command is? It's the chain I beat you with till you understand who's in command."

OP?

Pro-America, Pro-Democracy, Pro-Israeli, Pro-Freedom, Pro-Capitalism. Anti-Terrorist, Anti-Socialist, Anti-Dumbass

"Let Freedom Reign, death to Islamafascism"

Sorry, OP = Original Post or in other cases, OP can also = Original Poster.

Why should anyone be pro-country x though? It's purely an accident of birth that you're born where you are born. Isn't it slightly foolish perhaps to take pride in such an arbitrary thing?

___________________________________
Jayne: "Know what the chain of command is? It's the chain I beat you with till you understand who's in command."

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Wednesday, September 8, 2004 6:59 AM

TIGER

Quote:
"Would everyone willing to die for their God please do so now? Thank you."

LOL - perfect, just perfect.

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Wednesday, September 8, 2004 7:13 AM

JAYNEZTOWN

Quote:
Originally posted by Connorflynn:
World War III is on, most of the world just hasn't realized it yet. The only difference between the Islamafascists and the Nazis, is that the Islamafascists are willing to blow themselves up, rather then just run people into the gas chambers.

When will France and the rest of Europe wake up? Maybe after the severed heads of their journalists arrive, maybe after a few more hostage situations with inane demands.

I welcome Russia. I mourn for their loss. There can be no diplomacy with the Islamafascists. Only force.

Take a look at (Insert Islamafascist group here)..
"Crush the Infidels!!!" (gets ass handed to them)
"We give, we want to talk" (secretly builds up arms)
"Oh wait, We SHALL DIE for Allah!!!" (Gets ass handed to them)
" No wait, we give, we want to talk" (secretly begins to build up arms again).

http://www.kremlin.ru/eng/

http://cnn.netscape.cnn.com/news/story.jsp?flok=FF-RTO-roitz&idq=/ff/s
tory/0002%2F20040908%2F0627683863.htm&sc=roitz&photoid=20040906BES23D&floc=NW_1-T

Hot headed reactions like these are kind of understandable. I saw much worse ideas than this Flynn guy on the Yahoo-news and MSN-news board

It's true that these Islamic terrorists are scum, and if they take human life, bomb hospitals or kill children they deserve to die.

However not all Arabs, Muslims or Islamics are like these radical nuts. Many are just ordinary folk and some don't give a damn about religion. Terrorism will always exist in some form, it is hard to defeat but it can be largely prevented.
Terrorism flourishes where there is ethnic hatred, radical political leaders, religious nuts and oppression..these are the places where it grows and gets strong.
The probelm is that some try to strike back using overkill methods only to see terror groups spring back in other places and sometimes stronger.

Take the example of Clinton, he was a bullcrap president and spent much time with Monica and cigars. However he done ok for the USA and was smart when it came to global politics and events. In Kosovo, we had different ethnic groups and races killing ecah other. Clinton was forced to act and planes bombed. Afterwards there were big problems, yet Clinton set up the smart framework so that the area would be secure, safe and free from dictators or terrorists again. Clinton also done good in parts of Asia, Northern Ireland and the Middle East.

Now take our idiot Bush, all fight but no brains instead of finding the evil Binladen and his Taliban friends Bush is off causing trouble in the Iraq. Meanwhile N-Korea is building long range Nukes that reach the west coast and Iran has a real WMD program. Terrorism flourishes where there is ethnic hatred, radical political leaders, religious nuts and oppression..these are the places where it grows and gets strong and this might be why it's now growing in Iraq, a place where Al-Quaida could not have existed some months ago as Saddam used to hatethem and other religious radicals. It seems Bush has plenty of bravado and fight in him,
but no brains and tactics and no idea about peace, and security or winning the war.

There is no doubt these islamic extremists are evil and they should be killed for what they have done. However not respond by bombing a city
let's catch them , put them on trial and shoot them.
The worst thing Russia could do is play this like Bush has done, by pinning it on some other random city ( Baghdad-Iraq ) . When I speak of Clinton or Bush I don't just mean the presidents but the advisors and administartion which surrounds. Is Bush smart enough to win peace and security or are the terrorists coming back and more people going to die ?

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Wednesday, September 8, 2004 7:17 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Fireflew:

Sorry, OP = Original Post or in other cases, OP can also = Original Poster.

Why should anyone be pro-country x though? It's purely an accident of birth that you're born where you are born. Isn't it slightly foolish perhaps to take pride in such an arbitrary thing?

___________________________________
Jayne: "Know what the chain of command is? It's the chain I beat you with till you understand who's in command."

Well, I could see how it "Might" be hard to understand my post, if you can't see the distinction between Islamofascism and Islam.

Maybe this will help -

Islamofascism is a vile and ignorant Islamic religious fascism coming out of the Middle East.
This violent utopian Islamic fascism is basically a modern, 20th century totalitarian movement, similar to violent utopian communism or to mid-20th century European fascism. It is opposed to democracy, human rights, free speech, freedom of religion and freedom of sexuality. It is at war with everyone who is not an Islamic fundamentalist fascist. It has killed vast numbers of Muslims (those of moderate or liberal Islamic beliefs, held by the majority also known as Peaceful Islam) as well as non-Muslims, throughout the world, Normally targeting Civilians and Civilian infrastructures specifically.

So to answer your original question..NO..I don't want to kill all Muslims, just those that are Islamafascists. I thought I made it clear with "All Rabid Raccoons" versus "All raccoons" in my second post LOL. Too cerebral maybe /shrugs.

As for being Pro-American, No I don't think it is foolish to be proud of the country you live and were born in. It's called "Nationalism" and "Patriotism". Nor does it specifically mean the above. Someone can be "Pro-American" without living or having ever been born there. I don't think luck had much to do with it. I figure I was pre-destined to be born in the USA and pride is never arbitrary hehe

Pro-America, Pro-Democracy, Pro-Israeli, Pro-Freedom, Pro-Capitalism. Anti-Terrorist, Anti-Socialist, Anti-Dumbass

"Let Freedom Reign, death to Islamofascism"

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Wednesday, September 8, 2004 7:31 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Connorflynn:
Quote:
Originally posted by Fireflew:

Sorry, OP = Original Post or in other cases, OP can also = Original Poster.

Why should anyone be pro-country x though? It's purely an accident of birth that you're born where you are born. Isn't it slightly foolish perhaps to take pride in such an arbitrary thing?

___________________________________
Jayne: "Know what the chain of command is? It's the chain I beat you with till you understand who's in command."

Well, I could see how it "Might" be hard to understand my post, if you can't see the distinction between Islamofascism and Islam.

Maybe this will help -

Islamofascism is a vile and ignorant Islamic religious fascism coming out of the Middle East.
This violent utopian Islamic fascism is basically a modern, 20th century totalitarian movement, similar to violent utopian communism or to mid-20th century European fascism. It is opposed to democracy, human rights, free speech, freedom of religion and freedom of sexuality. It is at war with everyone who is not an Islamic fundamentalist fascist. It has killed vast numbers of Muslims (those of moderate or liberal Islamic beliefs, held by the majority also known as Peaceful Islam) as well as non-Muslims, throughout the world, Normally targeting Civilians and Civilian infrastructures specifically.

So to answer your original question..NO..I don't want to kill all Muslims, just those that are Islamafascists. I thought I made it clear with "All Rabid Raccoons" versus "All raccoons" in my second post LOL. Too cerebral maybe /shrugs.

As for being Pro-American, No I don't think it is foolish to be proud of the country you live and were born in. It's called "Nationalism" and "Patriotism". Nor does it specifically mean the above. Someone can be "Pro-American" without living or having ever been born there. I don't think luck had much to do with it. I figure I was pre-destined to be born in the USA and pride is never arbitrary hehe

Pro-America, Pro-Democracy, Pro-Israeli, Pro-Freedom, Pro-Capitalism. Anti-Terrorist, Anti-Socialist, Anti-Dumbass

"Let Freedom Reign, death to Islamofascism"

Well, as for the rabid raccoons bit, I guess I must not have read that part...

Ah well. I've tried to keep clear of that quagmirish area of politics concerning the situation over there.

Yes, I do know what patriotism + nationalism are - I wasn't flung from the stupid tree

. As for the country business, I just guess that I don't think much of the idea really.

___________________________________
Jayne: "Know what the chain of command is? It's the chain I beat you with till you understand who's in command."

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Wednesday, September 8, 2004 7:37 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Fireflew:
Yes, I do know what patriotism + nationalism are - I wasn't flung from the stupid tree . As for the country business, I just guess that I don't think much of the idea really.

___________________________________
Jayne: "Know what the chain of command is? It's the chain I beat you with till you understand who's in command."

I never suggested you were flung from the stupid tree

Just that I wasn't foolish, because I chose to be Nationalistic and Patriotic.

You're entitled to your opinion hehe.

Pro-America, Pro-Democracy, Pro-Israeli, Pro-Freedom, Pro-Capitalism. Anti-Terrorist, Anti-Socialist, Anti-Dumbass

"Let Freedom Reign, death to Islamafascism"

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Wednesday, September 8, 2004 8:14 AM

SIMONF

I thought those terrorists who killed those poor wee kids in Russia were Chechen separists rather than "Islamafascists".

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Wednesday, September 8, 2004 8:18 AM

Most Chechens are islamic.

Radhil Trebors
Persona Under Construction

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Wednesday, September 8, 2004 8:35 AM

SERGEANTX

The only problem I have with your original post is that it seems to imply that Christian terrorists or Jewish terrorists are some how in a different class. Is it only Islamic facism that you find reprehensible?

How about, rather inventing new words, we just focusing on defending ourselves against our enemies and negotiating with those willing to do so in good faith? By promoting blanket policies that force a 'for us or against us' mentality, we're only pushing more people into the desperate, dark corners that breed terrorism in the first place.

SergeantX

"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock

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Wednesday, September 8, 2004 8:46 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by SergeantX:
The only problem I have with your original post is that it seems to imply that Christian terrorists or Jewish terrorists are some how in a different class. Is it only Islamic facism that you find reprehensible?

How about, rather inventing new words, we just focusing on defending ourselves against our enemies and negotiating with those willing to do so in good faith? By promoting blanket policies that force a 'for us or against us' mentality, we're only pushing more people into the desperate, dark corners that breed terrorism in the first place.

SergeantX

"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock

LOL OK.. I'll be sure to do that, Once I find a massive Christian or Jewish Terrorist movement like Islamofascism

I wish for

sake, people would stop minimizing what Terrorism is. The word became well known because of Islamofascist militancy. Not because of some crazed nutcase outside an abortion clinic, or because the Israelis chose to segregate themselves from Palestinian Militant Suicide factions (who seem to hide in civilian areas as much as possible..go figure) and strike out at them after attacks.

Lets deal with Islamofascism first. It's the Primary security issue in the world today. We can deal with the rest as it arises.

PS..Islamofascism is not a new word. It's been around since the 70's. But hey..those in denial will always be in denial.

"Let Freedom Reign, death to Islamafascism"

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Wednesday, September 8, 2004 8:49 AM

There is a massive difference between the Nazi's and Islamic Terrorists, in ideology, organisation, numbers, equipment, strategy, aims...

(Though they are both anti-semitic, natch)

We bombed Germany flat because it was the only way to dismantle an organised war machine capable of churning out thousands of tanks, aircraft, guns, etc bent on the domination of the world and willing to kill millions for a twisted ideal... Hundreds of thousands died in the fire bombings by British and American bombers, millions died as they fought off brutal Russian artilery fire and tanks - yet despite the fanaticism of some of the Nazi resistence Germany is now a peaceful country with an abhorance of war. Don't forget that Germany hates the idea of fighting - like Japan it does not trust itself with putting armed forces abroad. How did this come about? By having a framework planned for the nation that was (keep out the Commies plan aside) almost entirely selfless and willing to run to great expense and political trouble. Empathy and understanding remade Germany and Japan.

From day one virtually no empathy was employed in Iraq or Chechnya. The US force failed to shift into a peace and security keeping force on the fall of Baghdad, fatally disbanded the Iraqi army and acted with a heavy hand and over the top force in routing out suspected insurgents. In Chechnya the Russians essentially levelled entire towns and villages after their badly trained conscripts got massacred by the hundred in convoy ambushes. The wholesale death of civilians has led to such violent hatred in Chechnya of the Russians that it is a breeding ground for terrorism.

This is where the Islamic terrorists step in. They point at the faceless occupier to the man who has lost his daughter, the mother her son, and whip up hatred in their hearts until they can think of nothing but vengence. Those that blow up a Russian truck or an American humvee within Chechnya or Iraq are sometimes grief stricken victims of a stray round that killed their families, or a shell hit their neighbour's house. They don't really think of the spread of international Islam, or of politics, but of revenge. The highly trained, fanatical resistance to occupation comes first in cold blooded attacks by cruel hearts who have planned it for a long time. When the nervous occupiers fight back with excessive force they create the potential of recruits.

This is how terroism is created, coupled with a harsh, dictatorial vision bolted on to Islam in the 19th century by an extremist.

In the manifestation of the Beslan atrocity, it is taken a step further to the point of blind madness. Those who comitted and planned such an action should be hunted down and killed, but such an operation should not extend to the full deployment of military force against a population that has terrorists in their midst. Too many innocent people die, too many new terrorists are created. A wide range of international special forces united under one intelligence service might be the ideal - ready to move at a moments notice and terminate cells - with a concerted police work by all nations and severe political and economic pressure on states sympathetic to terrorists. To those states who have terrorists in their midst, aid should be given to them to train their own forces to get rid of them. If they refuse to rid themselves of the terrorists, then they should be isolated from the world diplomatically, politically, economically and by geography. (For those of you say, but what if they have oil? I say, but what of Saudi Arabia?)

But to kill all 'Islamfacists'? How can you point them out? How do you go about this? What use of force is required? Should Russia subjegate Chechnya again? What of the rest of the Caucuses? What time are we willing to invest after rooting out the terrorists to change their perception of the West and raise their standard of living so that hatred is no longer an escape from poverty?

Eh?

EH?

I recently saw Robert McNamara in 'Fog of War', a superb documentary. He explained why he did what he did and put forward many convincing arguements about why they had to atom bomb Japan, bomb Germany, fight in Korea and so on. But he also said that without empathy you will only make a situation worse. He said that the war in Vietnam need not have been fought because there were really no real communists in Vietnam, only a civil war that had gone on for centuries by a people determined to overthrow the Saigon based dictator. They were just using the Chinese by nodding along with them over Communism and then taking their weapons to fight their old enemy. When the US stepped in believing in the 'domino effect', they were merely seen as allies of the order they had been fighting against for hundreds of years. If China had moved in later they would have met the same resistance. As a consequnce millions died who didn't have to, because the American administration misread the signals and believed that the North was aiming towards a communist state. And that is why the US could never have won - because it did not understand what was going on, or why they were willing to die. It sure as hell wasn't for communism! It was for their country. Real terrorists only number in their low thousands, the rest are people who are misled or wish revenge for personal loss or who believe their country under attack. Real terrorists kill children and murder civilians on 9/11, 1/11, 9/03. Not every gun man in Iraq wishes to see American children dead or an Islamic superstate. They just want the foreign soldiers off their soil.

And I'm personally not too keen on the idea of being 'welcomed' to a club of nation victims of atrocity-spectaculars that have long and bloody guerilla wars in other countries with attendant civilian casualites. What Russia needs is not an invasion but a ring of steel around the country to stop anything and anyone getting through without being cross-checked. And a bunch of well paid, uncorruptable border guards and officials to organise it all. Followed with negotiation with the people of Chechnya, the finding of candidates for Chechen politicians with a genuine 'Chechen first' line but with a hatred of the criminal and terrorist organisations that rule the country, and the retraining of Spetznatz to take out the leadership of such organisations one by one with careful, surgical force without the attendant civilian casualties.

If Russia goes in again, guns blazing, we're talking the entire region going up in flames and ethnic bloodshed not seen on a scale since the Bosnian civil war. Seriously. I just hope my nation, the UK, does not suffer a massive atrocity and goes rabid for revenge, though the chances are depressingly possible.

P.S: Agreed on bringing down the Taliban, disagreed on invading Iraq.

P.P.S: I genuinely hate and despise the people who did this to that school. I've now found from the papers that several of the terrorists wanted to call it off in the opening hours of the attack, arguing that it was wrong to do it to a school. Two of them were women who had their bombs detonated by the commander, another was a man shot in the head by him. This is the sort of thing we're fighting. Men and women willing to kill their own people, allies even, so corrupted and insane they have become. We must take every effort not to make more of them, and eliminate the ones that exist.

P.P.P.S: I believe I've just spewed my brains onto the screen without any real thematic coherency. Oh well.

"If you can keep your head whilst others... eurgh! Ack! I've spilt my ink! Ugh! Ink on my trousers! Agh! Ink on my shirt! My only hope! The window! Aieeeeee!" (Falls to death)
- Jonathan Nash

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Wednesday, September 8, 2004 8:52 AM

I'm of the "Kill them all. God knows his own, let Him sort it out." Mentality. But only because I know it'll piss off some bleeding hearts.

And now, since I've sifted out the bleeding hearts, I can tell all you guys the way I really feel, since the Bleeders wouldn't want to listen to a conservative anyway. There is no distinction between any terrorists. In fact, we've been a little easier on the islamic terrorists than we have other non-religion based or other-religion based terrorists. See how we don't blow up mosques? That's going easy. If we actually adopted the Powell Doctrine of overwhelming force, shock and awe, I think we'd be much closer to done. But we're better than that. We could level every Middle-Eastern country. We have that kind of firepower and payload. We don't because we're not evil bastards. There'd be a lot of innocent blood spilt, and that's not what we're about. I agree with Flynn. Kill all the islamic terrorists, no mercy, no remorse. However, I disagree with one thing.

I believe that someone can be willing to die for God and not be a terrorist. There are many documented martyrs in the Christian faith (I don't know about Jewish or Muslim martyrs of the same, pacifist ilk, as I am uneducated in that regard). You would be hard pressed to call men and women who die at the hands of ignorant oppressors quietly and peacably, all while not renouncing their God, terrorists. But then, I don't consider suicide-bombers to be martyrs, but instead nutjobs. Suicide doesn't get you to heaven. Ever. Even says that in the Koran(sp?).

Save the innocent, smite the wicked.

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http://www.jed-soft.com Gamer Rigs, Budget Prices

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Wednesday, September 8, 2004 9:11 AM

For Christian terrorism here are some samples:

Omagh bombing
Warrington bombing
IRA campaing
Kneecappings and murders in Northern island
3000 dead total
Oklahoma bombing
Basque bombings

(I have an Irish friend whose brother left for England to join the Royal Irish regiment. When he returned home he went down to the pub on the second day. He was taken out the back and shot in the back of the head. No one in the community ever mentioned his name again. My friend now refuses to go back home)

For Jewish terrorism here are some samples:

Settler Baruch Goldstein's killing of 29 Palestinians in 1991

Assassination of Yitzhak Rabin

Kanaa massacre

Sabra and Shatila massacres (To be completely fair this was Lebonese Christian milita who murdered several hundred refugee civilians in Lebanon in 1982 while an army unit of Israelis observed and did nothing to intervene - nothing at all)

The economic destruction of Palestine turning it into an impoverished state with no degree of self-sufficiency. A clinic with 5 doctors and four beds and two ambulances in Salfit must serve a population of 60,000.

Killings of Palestinian police officers in retaliation for Palestinian police officers failing to stop bus bombings, presumably because Palestine is very short of police officers... for some reason. 12 in Nablus.

There you go. We need peacekeepers by the thousands in Israel and Palastine NOW.

Oh, and no more political posts from me now. I'm getting all depressed again. I'm off to watch Wash act all wacky again.

P.S: The list of Islamic terrorism is quite a bit longer though, just don't think that they have a monopoly on the art of killing. And yes I am hugely annoyed with the Israeli government, though for balance I hate Hamas as well.

"If you can keep your head whilst others... eurgh! Ack! I've spilt my ink! Ugh! Ink on my trousers! Agh! Ink on my shirt! My only hope! The window! Aieeeeee!" (Falls to death)
- Jonathan Nash

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Wednesday, September 8, 2004 9:21 AM

I'm sure the bombing of Mosques would do just as much to pacify the Middle East as the bombing of churches in the US would to pacify America.

And I hate the phrase 'bleeding heart', as it is an easy way of shouting down an opposing view point. And I am not one, for I wish to chew the face off 'comedian' Jim Davidson, stab Michael Moore for being annoyingly fatuous and self-obsessed (and for not doing anything genuinely incisive and funny since the superb Roger & Me and 'TV Nation') and wished that we sent in a huge military force into Yugoslavia early on to act as a buffer between warring nations in the war there.

Bombing never achieves anything against terrorists unless you know that they are in the building. Bomb more than a few dozen and you kill innocent civilians, which creates more terrorists.

P.S: I actually think that maybe the UN needs to move into Chechnya with an overwhelming force of everybody but Russians, and sort out the mess there with a clear political plan to stabalise the region and restore its autonomy, with limited violence if need be. But that's just wishful thinking, it's never going to happen. Oh, and same with Israel and Palastine, they had God knows how long to stop the attacks on both sides, time we stopped it with a bit of face slapping.

"If you can keep your head whilst others... eurgh! Ack! I've spilt my ink! Ugh! Ink on my trousers! Agh! Ink on my shirt! My only hope! The window! Aieeeeee!" (Falls to death)
- Jonathan Nash

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Wednesday, September 8, 2004 9:23 AM

Yes, but when it comes to the Palestinians, they don't want a self-sufficient state. They want Israel for their own. We convinced, though I imagine it was a hard job, Israel to give up part of it's own territory to give to Palestinians. You can talk about how bad Israel is, but remember this. If it weren't for the US being a presence in the Mid-East, Israel would have ignited a war that would have burned the entire region until there was nothing left but glass on the ground. (For those of you who may not know, sand is made of silicon, which is melted down to form glass). I saw we let go of Israel's leash. Let them have at. And while we're at it, I say we let the neighbors try and attack Israel. Does anyone remember what happened the last time someone tried to launch a full assault on Israel? Yeah, that's right, the Russians got their asses handed to them.

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Wednesday, September 8, 2004 9:29 AM

Oh, and finally, my way of thinking...

(Certain element of wishful thinking about the willingness of politicians to think things through and carefully plan decades-long initiatives... and tolerate huge piles of paperwork)

Iraq - Invasion bad because huge destabilsation of area and attendant bloody war not about to happen. Saddam was an evil monster, but we should of taken him out in the first Gulf war when we had a good reason to.

Afghanistan - If invasion and occupation puts end to decades long bloody civil war, it is a good thing. If the UN and America make every effort to rebuild the country and install democracy, then this was a good thing. The driving into hiding of Al-Quaeda was good also.

Chechnya - Massive UN force deployment good thing - may stop imminent bloody ethnic war killing thousands. Russian invasion very bad, almost certain to go massively wrong and end up with thousands of innocents dead and even more terrorists.

Israel/Palastine - If they can't be friends, we should at least stop them from tediously killing each other and shouting about it. By massive UN occupation again until they become bored of our preaching and agree to be sane.

Kosovo - Really good thing. Nipped that in the bud with correct application of force, despite tragedy of bombs hitting civilians occasionally. And us pretending we could hit tanks when hidded in forests.

Yugoslavia - Should have intervened with a massive UN force. A tragic war which is on our conscience. At least region is slowly approaching some stability now.

So there you go. I am willing for force to be used though, obviously, I'd really really hate to be in the army during any of these initiatives.

That's enough from me now. Yes.

"If you can keep your head whilst others... eurgh! Ack! I've spilt my ink! Ugh! Ink on my trousers! Agh! Ink on my shirt! My only hope! The window! Aieeeeee!" (Falls to death)
- Jonathan Nash

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Wednesday, September 8, 2004 9:44 AM

Hullo GreyJedi!

By the way, end your reply by stating which is your fave episode of Firefly and why, just because I want to chat non-political with you too.

Some Palestinians want Israel for themselves, an increasing number are willing to take what they can get with the promise of peace and prosperity. But they also want access to the sea and an end to settlements in their territory, and the ability to move their own exports and imports without being blocked by the Israelis.

If you let go of the Israelis leash, they will buy even more territory to be suicide bombed in. They should go back to their original national boundaries, though not cut back on military spending.

It's almost embarrassing how the Arab states are completely useless at fighting conventional wars. It's almost as if they WANT to get their asses whipped by inferior numbers of better trained troops time and again. Can someone in their military please read Sun Tzu or something? They're like Wily E. Coyote for dreadful, useless persistence.

Trust me, get the settlers out, return Israel to natural borders and give the Palastinians a small passage to the sea (or better yet, don't give them one but broker a deal for free and fair export/import via Israel) and build up their economy, political structure and infrastructure so that they can be a decent nation not having to rely on the corruption of Arafat, and being free from the cycle of misery that breeds more terrorists. And install a tough multi-national force to keep the peace and take out terrorists. It would be a long and painful process, but it would work if we put hard work into it.

As for the Palastinians, if the positions were reversed I reckon that they would be acting even more harshly than the Israelis, but that does not excuse the Israelis. They should have learnt from the holocaust about succumbing to race hatred. Until they stop despising and fearing the Palastinians, and vice versa, nothing can be achieved.

And I belive that both sides can one day learn to forgive, if we intervene and force them to mend their ways. Otherwise there is no hope for humanity. (ARGH! That sounded so LIBERAL! ACK! ICK! SUSAN SARANDON IS LOOKING ALL DOVEY-EYED AT ME - QUICK POKE HER IN THE EYE!)

And I presume you mean the Arab states, not the Russians. Fair 'nough slip.

My fave episode is 'Out of Gas', due to it's perfect construction and the fact that the last scene made me cry. And Kaylee's less than innocent entrance *ahem* was a delight for those tired of Willow-pure Joss characters.

Cheers,

Pete

P.S: No, really, I am off now. No, really. Hungry.

"If you can keep your head whilst others... eurgh! Ack! I've spilt my ink! Ugh! Ink on my trousers! Agh! Ink on my shirt! My only hope! The window! Aieeeeee!" (Falls to death)
- Jonathan Nash

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Wednesday, September 8, 2004 9:44 AM

Personally, I agree with Greyjedi. Cut the reins on Israel. Let them either win or lose. Enough's enough (though I have a pretty good idea of who would win). I'm sick of Israel being the excuse most used by the left and the Islamofascists.

If the Palestinians are so poor, why the hell doesn't Good ole "Peace Loving" Yasshat Arafat spend some of the Billions of Dollars he has in his Swiss bank accounts to bring some good life to his people? Because he's a greedy hatemongering F***nut.

PS.. the UN is an dysfunctional obsolete anti-semitic body. Why not just say..the US(along with a coalition of the willing) will be sending peacekeeping troops to wherever. The first sign of trouble and the UN drops its drawers and runs for the hills.

"Let Freedom Reign, death to Islamafascism"

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Wednesday, September 8, 2004 9:45 AM

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Wednesday, September 8, 2004 9:45 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Connorflynn:
I never suggested you were flung from the stupid tree Just that I wasn't foolish, because I chose to be Nationalistic and Patriotic.

You're entitled to your opinion hehe.

Pro-America, Pro-Democracy, Pro-Israeli, Pro-Freedom, Pro-Capitalism. Anti-Terrorist, Anti-Socialist, Anti-Dumbass

"Let Freedom Reign, death to Islamafascism"

Yeah, I was mainly joking

.

___________________________________
Jayne: "Know what the chain of command is? It's the chain I beat you with till you understand who's in command."

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Wednesday, September 8, 2004 10:12 AM

I am always rather darkly amused that those who toss around the phrase "bleeding heart" are constantly calling for more blood.

Radhil Trebors
Persona Under Construction

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Wednesday, September 8, 2004 10:35 AM

That's why we use it. Their heart bleeds at ever whining soul seeking comfort(read: money). And we want to rip their hearts straight from their ribcage and stuff their still twitching muscle down their throat drowning them in a fist full of heart-muscle before their brain has a chance to die from the massive trauma of the ripping of a ribcage open with one's bare hands and forcefully yanking their heart free from all those connections to the other massively vital organs in the area.

My favorite episode is Objects is Space, though not by a wide margin. I like War Stories, Jaynestown, and Our Mrs. Reynolds much very as well.

--------------------------------------------------
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http://www.jed-soft.com Gamer Rigs, Budget Prices

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Wednesday, September 8, 2004 10:41 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by TheGreyJedi:
Their heart bleeds at every whining soul seeking comfort(read: money). *snip surgical references*

Ah, I see.

Hrm... so what does that have to do with war? At all?

Radhil Trebors
Persona Under Construction

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Wednesday, September 8, 2004 10:51 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Radhil:

Ah, I see.

Hrm... so what does that have to do with war? At all?

Radhil Trebors
Persona Under Construction

Most "Bleeding Heart Libs" by definition are socially very active as pacifists and traditional are namby pamby /wishy washy about war for any reason.

PS.. My favorite episode is "Jaynestown" hehe I loved it.

"Paulie, get the ball cutters" - Tony Soprano

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Wednesday, September 8, 2004 10:56 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Connorflynn:
Most "Bleeding Heart Libs" by definition are socially very active as pacifists and traditional are namby pamby /wishy washy about war for any reason.

Oh, I know what it means, and what it's intended for. I just wanted him to spout off like a deranged psychotic more. It's cute to watch.

Radhil Trebors
Persona Under Construction

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Wednesday, September 8, 2004 11:22 AM

Because when I am king, I will have entire armies of neo-cons, starved and deranged, and I shall throw them at my enemies and laugh as they do that whole heart ripping thing. And then smirk as they drink the blood of their enemies. Can't you just see and army of zombie-like Cheney's and Rumsfield's all in ragged old torn suits lumbering across the battlefield a la the latest Dawn of the Dead? Then while the Zombie Neo-con's are eating the corpsified wussy liberals, I'll carpet bomb the whole battefield and sit down with the reasonable minded everyone else and get down to making the world right. Having eliminated the most annoying and most extreme portions of the political world at large, I think it might work.

Plus it'd be all manner of fun to watch the wussy libs flail like little girls while the hunched over hand-wringing neocons laugh maniacally with mouths full of man-flesh.

But I'm kinda trolling and I have a flair for the sarcastic, ironic and satirical.

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Wednesday, September 8, 2004 11:57 AM

KNIBBLET

So your problem with Islamic terrorists (as opposed to Jewish or Christian terrorists) is that the Islamic ones are more efficient and effective?

http://www.cnn.com/2004/US/Southwest/01/30/cyanide.probe.ap/

In the small town of Noonday, Tex., F.B.I. agents discovered a weapons cache containing fully automatic machine guns, remote-controlled explosive devices disguised as briefcases, 60 pipe bombs and a chemical weapon — a cyanide bomb — big enough to kill everyone in a 30,000-square-foot building.

Every religion has its radicals. Every cause has its murderers (or wannabes who think that they're blessed by God. Of course, our President thinks Jesus talks to him over CoCoPuffs every morning. Friggin wacko - must be the three decades of living on his two favorite food groups: Cocaine and booze)
***
"Just keep walkin, preacher man."

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Wednesday, September 8, 2004 12:09 PM

LTNOWIS

Of course, nobody's mentioned Darfur. I say if we don't feel like a UN or African nation mass invasion, we kill the Sudanese air force, which would be incredibly easy for any non-poor nation.

I don't like the term "islamofascist," because radical Islam and Fascism are different things, even if they're both super-evil.

About terrorists being evil: yes, the 9/11 hijackers, the school attackers, and Al-qaida/Taliban members are all evil. But not every Islamic fighter is evil. The average Sadyr militiaman, hellbent on brutally murdering US troops, is not evil. Why? Because he's trying to liberate his nation from our occupation. While he probably should've given us more time to set up a government and his actions are pretty counterproductive, he thinks he's doing the right thing and his motivations are just.

Quote:
Posted by TheGreyJedi
I believe that someone can be willing to die for God and not be a terrorist. There are many documented martyrs in the Christian faith (I don't know about Jewish or Muslim martyrs of the same, pacifist ilk, as I am uneducated in that regard). You would be hard pressed to call men and women who die at the hands of ignorant oppressors quietly and peacably, all while not renouncing their God, terrorists.

I agree. FYI, there were some Jewish martyrs, some who refused to fight on Saturday, even in self defense as they were being killed.

Quote:
But then, I don't consider suicide-bombers to be martyrs, but instead nutjobs. Suicide doesn't get you to heaven. Ever.

I don't think suicide bombings are wrong. What is wrong, however, is targeting civilians. Blowing yourself up in a bus is wrong. But if people want to die for a just cause, I say let 'em. Going on a risky, death-almost-certain commando raid is only a little less than strapping an explosive vest to yourself and trying to kill the enemy. That said, I think most suiciders, both the islamic extremists, and the Japs in WWII, are fundamentally selfish. The Palestinians who blow themself up would rather end their lives for supposed eternal rewards than work towards tough solutions in a war-torn region. The Japs who yelled "banzai" and charged our lines were being counterproductive, actually hurting their cause in exchange for supposed paradise. Also, anyone who commits suicide needs to think about the pain they'll inflict on their friends and family.

Quote:
Koran(sp?)

Yes, that's the prefered spelling. The less Westernized version is "Qu'ran," I think, but frankly I don't like typing apostrophes all the time, so I use your spelling. Like many Arab words, there are many equally acceptable spellings.

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Wednesday, September 8, 2004 2:01 PM

I agree, more or less, with LtNowis.

It's so endearing when me, my family, my friends are accused of being namby pamby liberals. Even if when we saw the Beslan footage we felt that we could literally tear apart the mass murderers who did that, apparently anything less than a desire to bomb into dust large chunks of population in retaliation is bleeding heart whining liberalism - as is attempting to work out why terrorists do what they do and why the Middle East is such a hot bed of violence, and to see if we can change that through means other than blowing stuff up. I mean, obviously were completely stupid to try to - heaven forbid - tackle the causes rather than the symptoms.

And blimey! I thought a democracy required the discussion and analysing of TWO or more points of view before coming to a decision.

And to your undead army I raise the mightiest zombie liberal of them all, ZOMBIE BILL HICKS! QUAKE before his righteous, scattershot, porn obsessed rage. FEAR his Jack Daniels induced vengeance. COWER in the shadow of his equally fearsome comerades in corpsification (such an ace word, isn't it) ZOMBIE HUNTER S THOMPSON and ZOMBIE CHRIS MORRIS.

(None of you will know him, but Chris Morris is the only daring satirist left. The most balsy thing he did was follow drug dealers at night on a Brixton street in London asking for made up drugs while filmed on secret camera...

"Give me some Clarkey-Cat, I want to tripple jessop jessop jessop. I'm feeling all blooty. I need some quack candles!"

"I don't know what you mean!? Just f*** off! What do you MEAN!?"

For about half an hour. It is a miracle he wasn't shot.

"The twisted brain wrong of a one off man-mental."

He baits both Right wingers and Left wingers in the celebrity world. 'Brass Eye', watch it.

Once again, I digress mightily. But why not? I'm getting slightly weary with bizarre 'Death to X' rants.

And 'Objects in Space' is my second fave, GreyJedi. Early may be sick in the head, but he's also pretty damn cool.

"If you can keep your head whilst others... eurgh! Ack! I've spilt my ink! Ugh! Ink on my trousers! Agh! Ink on my shirt! My only hope! The window! Aieeeeee!" (Falls to death)
- Jonathan Nash

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Wednesday, September 8, 2004 2:11 PM

Quote:
But I'm kinda trolling and I have a flair for the sarcastic, ironic and satirical.

*laughing* I hadn't noticed.

No, seriously, I hadn't, until that. Thanks for the amusement - it's been a wierd sort of day.

Radhil Trebors
Persona Under Construction

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Wednesday, September 8, 2004 2:17 PM

SGTGUMP

I love all you guys.

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Wednesday, September 8, 2004 2:30 PM

In all fairness, I try to be more moderate. If nothing else than to separate myself from the likes of the likes of Cheney and Rumsfield, hand-wringing bastards. I'm a Republican. I like that we can own guns, and I'd like that we can keep owning guns.

As far as the Middle-East is concerned, well, there's not a chance in hell anyone is going to stop the fighting down there. They've been fighting since Creation. It's when it all comes to peace that I'll be afraid. I'm going to side with Israel, but I'm going to go crazy and site religious reasons for doing so. The Jews, I believe, are still beloved in the eyes of God. They're like our religious older siblings. I think we did the right thing by going into Iraq. Bush has a grasp of high concepts and ideals, but I don't think he realizes all the logistics of a situation. He says do this thing, and doesn't necessarily understand how to make it happen. This isn't a bad thing, by itself. But I blame Rumsfield, not Bush, for the mucking up of Iraq. The pitfalls there are logistical errors that fall into the lap of the Secretary of Defense.

I talk a lot about heavy-handed destruction, death, severity. In reality, I have no desire to see a loss of human life if it can be helped. In war there are casualties. Unlike the uncaring bastards we're fighting against, we're trying our best to not shoot civilians. Which our enemies over there, and in Afghanistan, are using against us, but that is the nature of the beast. There is no way to understand or negotiate with terrorists of any nature, Muslim, Jew, Christian, Atheist, Whatever. Terrorists are skewed, warped, broken. Once it gets to the point of terrorism, there is no goal other than scaring a people. That's what terrorism is. The spread of terror. Not fear, terror. They don't want you to be afraid you might get attacked. They want you to know you're going to die. There is only one way to deal with terrorism ->

.

Here's the way it could work. The more conservative and/or hawks amongst us will support massive deployment of peace keeping force. We'll play crowd control, keep everyone in their corners. While we're doing that, the more liberal and/or doves amongst us can get the leaders of all these violent groups together and we'll play good-cop/bad-cop. We'll know we're fighting to keep folks away from one another long enough for you more liberal amongst us to make a lasting cease-fire. They don't have to like each other, just not shoot each other so much. And why the liberal doves for this? They're more likely to be subtle, kind, respectful. I'd just walk into the room with a loaded shotgun saying: "Make peace or die, bastards." Which of course would be the alternative. You talk them into peace or we shoot them.

I like that idea.

And Jubal....aiyah, what a nutcase. He talks too much. Give me Boba Fett's pissed off silence anyday.

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Wednesday, September 8, 2004 2:33 PM

Quote:
Jesus was a Libertarian

<- From SgtGump's tagline.

Jesus was a shoot you in the face!

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http://www.jed-soft.com Gamer Rigs, Budget Prices

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Wednesday, September 8, 2004 2:55 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

This is from another thread, I just want to clarify something before moving forward:

Quote:
So... individuals or groups that target innocent civilians for death are terrorists?

And since we charge Osama bin Laden with terrorism because he inspires and funds terrorists (although he hasn't actually blown himself up yet) then individuals or groups that inspire and fund OTHERS to target civilians are also terrorists?

I just want to make sure that I have this PERFECTLY clear. (SIGNYM)

---------------------
Wow? LOL. I'm not sure what your after, but I'm sure it's some sort of twisted view LOL. I would have to say that yes what you state is a pretty precise definition of what a terrorist is except that terrorists target civilians and Civilian infrastructures for the sole purpose of instilling terror.

Pro-America, Pro-Democracy, Pro-Israeli, Pro-Freedom, Pro-Capitalism. Anti-Terrorist, Anti-Socialist, Anti-Dumbass

"Let Freedom Reign, death to Islamafascism"
(CONNORFLYNN)

Well, OK except that it isn't the SOLE purpose of causing terror because that terror is to be used for gaining ANOTHER goal- whether it be converting everyone to Islam or carving out a piece of territory as your own.

More later....

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Wednesday, September 8, 2004 3:42 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
This is from another thread, I just want to clarify something before moving forward:

Quote:
So... individuals or groups that target innocent civilians for death are terrorists?

And since we charge Osama bin Laden with terrorism because he inspires and funds terrorists (although he hasn't actually blown himself up yet) then individuals or groups that inspire and fund OTHERS to target civilians are also terrorists?

I just want to make sure that I have this PERFECTLY clear. (SIGNYM)

---------------------
Wow? LOL. I'm not sure what your after, but I'm sure it's some sort of twisted view LOL. I would have to say that yes what you state is a pretty precise definition of what a terrorist is except that terrorists target civilians and Civilian infrastructures for the sole purpose of instilling terror.

Pro-America, Pro-Democracy, Pro-Israeli, Pro-Freedom, Pro-Capitalism. Anti-Terrorist, Anti-Socialist, Anti-Dumbass

"Let Freedom Reign, death to Islamafascism"
(CONNORFLYNN)

Well, OK except that it isn't the SOLE purpose of causing terror because that terror is to be used for gaining ANOTHER goal- whether it be converting everyone to Islam or carving out a piece of territory as your own.

More later....

LOL..I give up. You win. The Islamafascists (oops, I meant the Militant godsends who fight for the right and just causes in the world and the furthering of the Fundamentalist Islamic beliefs) are righteous heroes. Suicide bombers are rational and right, we need more of em. Let's Nuke Israel and let the Zionist God sort the Zionist bastards out. Why stop there? I'm ordering a Berkha for all the women in my family, right after I start making plans to marry multiple women who will bear many sons for me. After all, it won't be long before Sharia is the rule of law and men will transcend to their rightful positions in the western world. Gods who will have women do their every bidding.

LOL get real.

"Don't Bother, can't hear ya" - Door Knocker, Labrynth

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Wednesday, September 8, 2004 3:53 PM

LTNOWIS

Quote:
The Jews, I believe, are still beloved in the eyes of God. They're like our religious older siblings.

Yeah, I agree. Christians hating Jews is the stupidest thing on Earth, with the possible exception of reality TV. About dealing with terrorists/ending civil wars, I say take it on a case-by-case basis. Still, some say the best way to counter terrorism is to give in to their demands, or at least the non-insane ones. Spain gave the Basques limited autonomy and self-government, everything except their own state, and the terrorists are now weak and ineffectual, with a much smaller support. The Al-qaeda Ultimate List of Demands, while pretty extreme, isn't as insane as their tactics or propoganda. It's got things like "All Arab oil should be in the hands of Arabs." and "Western troops should leave Muslim nations." I'm not saying we should give in to terrorists, just that if you don't really care about their demands, it might be worth thinking about granting some not-too-painful demands. With the Israeli conflict, however, they left some colonies, and the Palestinians saw it as cynical appeasement. So it goes back to the case-by-case thing: For Al-qaeda, kill 'em all. For the Basques, give in to a bunch of demands, like the right to teach their own language. For the Israel-Palestine conflict, pray for a miracle.

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Wednesday, September 8, 2004 4:22 PM

FLYINGTAMS

Two morals to remember:

* Happy people don't blow them sevels up.

* Bombing your way to peace doesn't work for anyone.

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Wednesday, September 8, 2004 4:37 PM

JUKO

"* Bombing your way to peace doesn't work for anyone."

No it doesn't... but that still doesn't seem to stop anyone... "Islamifascists", Americans, Palestinians, Israelis, IRA, KKK, Granny Gertrude down the block, doesn't seem to matter. They're gonna keep pounding the heck out of each other for reasons that make a lot of sense to the respective side. One side is the "oppressive bully", the other the "terrorist fanatics". If folks'd understand both sides of the conflict (and before anyone goes all hoity-toity, I said understand, NOT empathize), they'd see that both sides might have a grounds on which to base their dislike of each other.

Does Blue Sun sponser the Blue Man Group?

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Wednesday, September 8, 2004 5:35 PM

SERGEANTX

http://www.investigatemagazine.com/_NEWSTALK/000008d9.htm

SergeantX

"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock

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Wednesday, September 8, 2004 5:48 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

Blue man group ....... HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA Ha ha ha ha ha hee hee hee ...

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Wednesday, September 8, 2004 6:13 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

ConnerFlynn- Actually, I had a question that I didn't have time to type!

Was Saddam a terrorist? I'm not wondering if he SUPPORTED terrorists, my question is- was Saddam himself a terrorist? After all, he DID target civilians with plastic-chippers, ear-lops and chemical weapons. There is a reason why his regime was called a "reign of terror".

And if he is a terrorist, would that also include Pol Pot? Josef Stalin?

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Wednesday, September 8, 2004 6:30 PM