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Ex-sceptic says climate change is down to humans

POSTED BY: KPO
UPDATED: Wednesday, August 1, 2012 15:09
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Monday, July 30, 2012 3:08 AM

KPO

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-19047501

Quote:

A formerly sceptical climate scientist says human activity is causing the Earth to warm, as a new study confirms earlier results on rising temperatures.

In a US newspaper opinion piece, Prof Richard Muller says: "Call me a converted sceptic."

Muller leads the Berkeley Earth Project, which is using new methods and some new data to investigate the claims made by other climate researchers.

Their latest study confirms the warming trend seen by other groups.

The project received funds from sources that back organisations lobbying against action on climate change.

Their latest study, released early on Monday (GMT), concludes that the average temperature of the Earth's land has risen by 1.5C (2.7F) over the past 250 years.

The team argues that the good correspondence between the new temperature record and historical data on CO2 emissions suggests human activity is "the most straightforward explanation" for the warming.

The paper reiterates the finding that the land surface temperature has risen 0.9C just in the last 50 years.

In a piece authored for the New York Times, Prof Muller, from the University of California, Berkeley, said: "Three years ago I identified problems in previous climate studies that, in my mind, threw doubt on the very existence of global warming.

"Last year, following an intensive research effort involving a dozen scientists, I concluded that global warming was real and that the prior estimates of the rate of warming were correct. I'm now going a step further: Humans are almost entirely the cause."

When establishing the project, Prof Muller had been concerned by claims that established teams of climate researchers had not been entirely open with their data.

He gathered a team of 10 scientists, mostly physicists, including such luminaries as Saul Perlmutter, winner of this year's Nobel Physics Prize for research showing the Universe's expansion is accelerating.

Funding came from a number of sources, including charitable foundations maintained by the Koch brothers, billionaire US industrialists who have also donated large sums to organisations lobbying against acceptance of man-made global warming.

On a different page

However, one collaborator on the previous tranche of Berkeley Earth project papers, Judith Curry of the Georgia Institute of Technology, declined to be included as an author on the latest one.

Commenting on the paper, Prof Curry said: "Their latest paper on the 250-year record concludes that the best explanation for the observed warming is greenhouse gas emissions. Their analysis is way oversimplistic and not at all convincing in my opinion."

She also told the New York Times: "I was invited to be a co-author on the new paper. I declined. I gave them my review of the paper, which was highly critical. I don't think this new paper adds anything to our understanding of attribution of the warming."

Prof Michael Mann, director of the Earth Science System Center at Penn State University, said that there was "a certain ironic satisfaction" in seeing a study funded by the Koch Brothers "demonstrate what scientists have known with some degree of confidence for nearly two decades: that the globe is indeed warming, and that this warming can only be explained by human-caused increases in greenhouse gas concentrations".

Prof Muller, meanwhile, describes his own change in standpoint as "a total turnaround".

He explained: "These findings are stronger than those of the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change [IPCC], the United Nations group that defines the scientific and diplomatic consensus on global warming."

The University of California physics professor added: "I hope that the Berkeley Earth analysis will help settle the scientific debate regarding global warming and its human causes.

"Then comes the difficult part: agreeing across the political and diplomatic spectrum about what can and should be done."


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Monday, July 30, 2012 3:25 AM

6IXSTRINGJACK


I totally agree that our next global catastrophe is man-made.

It is what it is.

There is ZERO you, or I or anyone else can do about it.

Short of us all agreeing to live the lives of the Amish, we're doomed.

Sorry to be the bad guy here, but the truth hurts.

Seeing as how I've never sent a text message in my life on a cell phone, and I don't have any kids, just ask your own kids how they'd feel about "going green" if it meant no more video games or streaming movies or text messages....

I'm one generation behind the new problem now....

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." ~Shepherd Book

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Monday, July 30, 2012 4:03 AM

KPO

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.


Quote:

just ask your own kids how they'd feel about "going green" if it meant no more video games or streaming movies or text messages....

Going green probably means paying more for electricity - in the short term at least. It doesn't mean giving up electricity altogether...

Quote:

There is ZERO you, or I or anyone else can do about it.

We're in a car heading full speed towards a brick wall. We could at least try braking? And it's not what you or I can do, but what governments can agree to do internationally. As I said to Auraptor, put a price on carbon emissions and businesses will reduce them automatically. And the money that comes from that could go towards new technologies, or even attempts to reduce the CO2 in the atmosphere.

Or we could do nothing - ignore the brake pedal, try shutting our eyes instead... The Auraptor approach.

It's not personal. It's just war.

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Monday, July 30, 2012 4:27 AM

6IXSTRINGJACK


Going green means paying a shit ton more for electricity for those who don't already have alternative means, or Government Funds, further separating the gap between the haves and have-nots in the US.....

It amazes me that parents still buy new video game systems and the games for them to keep the industry alive since the last "New" console I bought was PS2, and I've heavily modded the XBox1 for years to make it do 100 times what you might think it's capable of if you've never seen the end result. (yes, it now plays over 50,000 classic games ranging from Zork to about half of the PS1 library, and all of the Arcade games in-between)

In my eyes, Dead Rising 1 on XBox 360 is the epitome of gaming. I'm sure I'm like 6 years behind now, and that's not a bad thing in my book.

I've come a long way. I remember dreaming about Super Mario Bros 3 on NES before we had one. I was only 11 then, but I would have willingly bludgeoned a schoolmate's head for an NES and a copy of that game back then.

Bottom line, you have no clue what your kid's are capable to get the next video game fix. If you're two parents still together, at least you can confront him unified.


I was at the forefront of "let's let them all play for free" for years....

Playing is one thing, but being a part of the movement is more like a cult than anything else.....

Only 8 people I know in real life know what I did for 4 years while I disappeared from "real life".

In two years, Gametap will be able to stream all the work my team did without losing a second to bandwidth...

Imagine every single game ever made, from PC to Arcade to Condole games, from 1977-2001 all included, videos and snapshots made, and in-depth reviews from classic magazines all included.

Pro-Bono work.....



What amazes me is that not one single "source" of money on that front has tried to recruit me now.....

It's only a matter of time....

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." ~Shepherd Book

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Monday, July 30, 2012 6:19 AM

STORYMARK


Quote:

Originally posted by kpo:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-19047501

Quote:


"Last year, following an intensive research effort involving a dozen scientists, I concluded that global warming was real and that the prior estimates of the rate of warming were correct. I'm now going a step further: Humans are almost entirely the cause."




Bah. They're just stupid scientists! Everyone knows that the only people who truely understand the environment are Oil Company Executives and Talk Radio hosts. Duh.


Note to anyone - Please pity the poor, poor wittle Rappyboy. He's feeling put upon lately, what with all those facts disagreeing with what he believes.

"Goram it kid, let's frak this thing and go home! Engage!"

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Monday, July 30, 2012 7:37 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by 6ixStringJack:
I totally agree that our next global catastrophe is man-made.

It is what it is.

There is ZERO you, or I or anyone else can do about it.

Short of us all agreeing to live the lives of the Amish, we're doomed.

Sorry to be the bad guy here, but the truth hurts.

Seeing as how I've never sent a text message in my life on a cell phone, and I don't have any kids, just ask your own kids how they'd feel about "going green" if it meant no more video games or streaming movies or text messages....

I'm one generation behind the new problem now....

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." ~Shepherd Book




Seems a rather fatalistic approach; "we can do nothing, ergo let's do nothing."

Suppose I took a similar view of our spending. Since it's so high now, let's not ever even think about trying to slow it down. After all, getting out of the red would mean your kids have to learn to go without, right?

So let's just keep on doing what we're doing, keep on spending, and hopefully we'll all be dead before the bills really come due, since we'll all be dead shortly after they come due anyway.





"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero


"The groin cup and throat protector have about as much ballistic protection as the kneepads I wear when I'm doing a job that requires me to be on my knees." - Troll

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Monday, July 30, 2012 8:18 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


There are myriad ways we could minimize the damage we are doing to the earth to at least delay what I believe is the inevitable for our children's children's children. It's not just about electricity, or even omissions. Stopping the clearing of forests would be a good beginning. Forcing the energy-providing companies to make changes would be another...yes, more expensive in the short term, but that is the problem with America in my opinion; we are too hung up on the short term. Pollution could be lessened; "clean coal" could be dealt with (I don't know how, but there are people out there with imagination); "natural gas" could be treated realistically, not put out in advertisements as the next wave of cheap energy. There could be ENFORCED restrictions to the pollution of water, air, land. Further encouraging recycling; even if every community made similar goals to the ones we have here in Marin.

Government is the biggie, as mentioned. Government could subsidize the increased energy costs on those who can't afford it, for a start, and many other things. As it stands, government is in the pocket of Big Oil, Big Coal and Big Natural Gas--if that could be changed, it would be an imporant start.

Even if just investment in infrastructure were made, it would help. The auto makers have made a start; continued financial encouragement for low-emission autos, VIABLE PUBLIC TRANSPORTATION in the West; advertising more on the benefits of public transit rather than all those expensive ads I see multiple times daily about "natural gas".

Eliminating farm subsidies for corn; ethanol isn't a viable option and shouldn't be pursued, in my opinion.

The list goes on and on. If we dealt with the multiple important issues we're facing, some of them would not only impact global warming, they would help lessen all the other factors which at this point pretty much ensure our extinction. I posted the things scientists have determined compromise our reaching or passing tipping point; global warming is only ONE of them. Maybe we ARE past tipping point on that one, as I now believe, but we might be able to find ways to adapt to that and lessen it over time; combined with all the others, yes, it is pretty bleak.

So if we start from the point of dealing with the numerous things endangering our survival and changing the planet radically, and accept that global warming is just one of them, there is MUCH we could do to, at the very least, stave off what those coming after us will face; possibly even make it possible for us to have time to adapt to global warming and start reversing it (hey, I can dream). To reiterate what I listed previously, :
Quote:

A team of 30 scientists across the globe ( http://www.stockholmresilience.org/research/researchnews/tippingtoward
stheunknown/contactdetails.4.1fe8f33123572b59ab800010646.html
) have determined that the nine environmental processes named above must remain within specific limits, otherwise the "safe operating space" within which humankind can exist on Earth will be threatened.

The group has set numeric limits for seven of the nine so far (chemical pollution and aerosol loading are still being pinned down). And the researchers have determined that the world has already crossed the boundary in three cases: biodiversity loss, the nitrogen cycle and climate change.

Up to 30% of mammals, birds and amphibians will be threatened with extinction in this century;
Biodiversity loss has happened faster in the past 50 years than at any other time in human history;
We're losing ice sheets; sea levels are rising; weather patterns are changing;
Carbon dioxide is making the oceans more acidic, causing the loss of corals, shellfish and plankton;
Widespread fertilizer use is changing the nitrogen and phosphorous cycles even more than the carbon cycle;
Excess nitrogen and phosphorous pollute our rivers, lakes, oceans and atmosphere;
Global freshwater use doubles every 20 years, at more than twice the rate of population growth;
We've already passed the tipping point of climate change, biodiversity loss and nitrogen levels;
We're about to pass the tipping point of freshwater consumption, ocean acidification, land use and phosphorous levels.

Jon Foley, director of the University of Minnesota’s Institute on the Environment, and a leader of the group, lays out the limits and their implications for human action in an article ( http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=boundaries-for-a-heal
thy-planet
) in Scientific American‘s April issue. http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/observations/2010/03/19/is-earth-p
ast-the-tipping-point
/

So we could work on those things where we haven't yet passed tipping point: how we use fresh water, finding ways to reverse ocean acidification, land use, reducing the phosphorous pollution.

Global warming is just one component; if we dealt with those we can still change, at the very least it would buy us time to possibly deal with the others, or at least buy us time by minimizing them. All of which is of course a moot point; civilization would have to change dramatically, and it won't.

I always feel sad when I see the ad on MSNBC by Chris Hayes (one of the smartest people I've ever run across, by the way); he speaks of how the changes we "have" to make will be as dramatic as the other major shifts mankind has adapted to...I see him as young and hopeful, because I don't see any hope of change, and don't believe mankind realize there is a "have to" involved; things will go on as they do, maybe, as is happening, changes will happen here or there, but it would take massive changes worldwide to even delay the inevitable. By the time mankind actually sees and accepts what's happening, it will be too late. Hell, we can SEE it now, and look how many CHOOSE (whether consciously or unconsciously) to be blind!

ETA: I see the amusing difference in our spelling, KPO, as over here it's usually "skeptic". Every time I read your British version, I think of septic tanks!


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Monday, July 30, 2012 8:29 AM

STORYMARK


Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:

Suppose I took a similar view of our spending. Since it's so high now, let's not ever even think about trying to slow it down. After all, getting out of the red would mean your kids have to learn to go without, right?

So let's just keep on doing what we're doing, keep on spending, and hopefully we'll all be dead before the bills really come due, since we'll all be dead shortly after they come due anyway.



Really, if one takes the "we're doomed, why bother" attitude - why should they care about spending in the least? Wouldn't the logical progression be to say "keep spending, since we'll die before the bill comes due" anyway?


Note to anyone - Please pity the poor, poor wittle Rappyboy. He's feeling put upon lately, what with all those facts disagreeing with what he believes.

"Goram it kid, let's frak this thing and go home! Engage!"

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Monday, July 30, 2012 12:23 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!



Current skeptic still a skeptic.




" We're all just folk. " - Mal

" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall

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Tuesday, July 31, 2012 3:01 AM

6IXSTRINGJACK


Quote:

Originally posted by Storymark:
Really, if one takes the "we're doomed, why bother" attitude - why should they care about spending in the least? Wouldn't the logical progression be to say "keep spending, since we'll die before the bill comes due" anyway?



That's pretty much the train I'm riding on these days.

Really, what can be done when we have nothing but criminals running the show for us?



"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." ~Shepherd Book

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Tuesday, July 31, 2012 3:22 AM

KPO

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:

Current skeptic still a skeptic.




What do you know that Prof. Muller doesn't? (and virtually every other climate scientist)

It's not personal. It's just war.

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Tuesday, July 31, 2012 4:13 AM

HERO


Quote:

Originally posted by 6ixStringJack:
Short of us all agreeing to live the lives of the Amish, we're doomed.


A friend of mine is prosecuting an actual case of fanatical Amish terrorism...

H

Hero...must be right on all of this. ALL of the rest of us are wrong. Chrisisall, 2012

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Tuesday, July 31, 2012 4:15 AM

HERO


Quote:

Originally posted by kpo:
What do you know that Prof. Muller doesn't? (and virtually every other climate scientist)


I think that after long and careful study Prof Muller discovered the secret to getting grant money.

H

Hero...must be right on all of this. ALL of the rest of us are wrong. Chrisisall, 2012

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Tuesday, July 31, 2012 4:58 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Man, you and your ilk are truly feeble, Hero! Aything, ANYTHING as an excuse not to face the issue. Wretched effort.


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Tuesday, July 31, 2012 7:40 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by kpo:
Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:

Current skeptic still a skeptic.




What do you know that Prof. Muller doesn't? (and virtually every other climate scientist)



I know what hundreds if not thousands of actual scientists know, that there is no credible evidence to the myth that is man made global warming.


" We're all just folk. " - Mal

" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall

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Tuesday, July 31, 2012 8:13 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


97% of real scientists say Rappy is wrong.

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Tuesday, July 31, 2012 12:27 PM

HERO


Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:
Man, you and your ilk are truly feeble, Hero! Aything, ANYTHING as an excuse not to face the issue. Wretched effort.



He leads the Berkeley Earth Project...do you think that job and the associated grant money would go to someone who is or was a real skeptic?

Global warming science is about picking a conclusion, then explaining away the contrary evidence. If you can do that you get money to study the environment.

H

Hero...must be right on all of this. ALL of the rest of us are wrong. Chrisisall, 2012

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Tuesday, July 31, 2012 12:46 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
97% of real scientists say Rappy is wrong.



No they don't.


" We're all just folk. " - Mal

" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall

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Tuesday, July 31, 2012 1:23 PM

KPO

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.


Quote:

I know what hundreds if not thousands of actual scientists know, that there is no credible evidence to the myth that is man made global warming.

So if I present some, you can dismiss it?

It's not personal. It's just war.

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Tuesday, July 31, 2012 1:28 PM

KPO

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.


Quote:

He leads the Berkeley Earth Project...do you think that job and the associated grant money would go to someone who is or was a real skeptic?


Lol, from the article:

Quote:

Funding came from a number of sources, including charitable foundations maintained by the Koch brothers, billionaire US industrialists who have also donated large sums to organisations lobbying against acceptance of man-made global warming.


If he wasn't a real skeptic he sure did a good job of convincing the Koch brothers...

It's not personal. It's just war.

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Tuesday, July 31, 2012 1:43 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by Hero:
Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:
Man, you and your ilk are truly feeble, Hero! Aything, ANYTHING as an excuse not to face the issue. Wretched effort.



He leads the Berkeley Earth Project...do you think that job and the associated grant money would go to someone who is or was a real skeptic?

Global warming science is about picking a conclusion, then explaining away the contrary evidence. If you can do that you get money to study the environment.

H

Hero...must be right on all of this. ALL of the rest of us are wrong. Chrisisall, 2012




Ah - so now that he's been convinced by the evidence, he must have been a traitor all along, eh?

He was actually working on money supplied by one of the Koch brothers.

According to this scientist, he was trying to find an explanation for a warming cycle that didn't include man, and he was unable to do so.

Science is about following the evidence to the conclusion it leads to.



"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero


"The groin cup and throat protector have about as much ballistic protection as the kneepads I wear when I'm doing a job that requires me to be on my knees." - Troll

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Tuesday, July 31, 2012 1:44 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
Quote:

Originally posted by kpo:
Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:

Current skeptic still a skeptic.




What do you know that Prof. Muller doesn't? (and virtually every other climate scientist)



I know what hundreds if not thousands of actual scientists know, that there is no credible evidence to the myth that is man made global warming.





No, you don't.

You also don't have "hundreds" or "thousands" of "actual scientists" that agree with your claims.



"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero


"The groin cup and throat protector have about as much ballistic protection as the kneepads I wear when I'm doing a job that requires me to be on my knees." - Troll

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Tuesday, July 31, 2012 2:06 PM

STORYMARK


As always with right wing zealots - belief trumps fact, every time.


Note to anyone - Please pity the poor, poor wittle Rappyboy. He's feeling put upon lately, what with all those facts disagreeing with what he believes.

"Goram it kid, let's frak this thing and go home! Engage!"

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Tuesday, July 31, 2012 2:54 PM

MAL4PREZ


Boy, and those science research grants are just such a HUGE amount of money! Totally worth lying for, and totally enough to convince anonymous peer reviewers to lie as well, and give up their chance to make bigger headlines by refuting this research. (Though, you might note that the research posted here has not gone through peer review yet.)

Yep, those science researchers are living high off the hog, with their 18 mansions and leer jets and sports cars and ridiculous incomes that are so big that they have to hide their tax returns when they run for office...

Oh, wait. Those aren't scientists living like that. Tell me, who is really pulling in the money, billions and billions that only pour in as long as they can push certain ideas about global warming so that their lucrative industries won't have to change their ways, hmmm?

It just kills me when people try to blame money, but live in denial of which side of this argument the money is really on. Open your EYES fool!

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Tuesday, July 31, 2012 5:01 PM

FREMDFIRMA



Conservative Think Tank Not Thinking
http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2007/02/conservative_th/
Quote:

Last Friday, the Guardian reported that AEI had offered a $10,000 open-letter bribe to the scientific and economic communities to cook up some evidence, any evidence, that would debunk global warming and undermine the report issued last week by the UN’s Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change. The IPCC report, considered the most comprehensive analysis of climate change to date, said there is a 90 percent probability that human activity has caused global warming.

IPCC dropped the report as multiple congressional committees have been holding hearings about the Bush administration tampering with or suppressing climate change research by government scientists. In a survey carried out by the Union of Concerned Scientists and presented before the House Oversight and Government Reform Committee last Tuesday, scores of scientists claimed to have been muzzled by government honchos.

That doesn’t look good for the administration, especially on the heels of a State of the Union address in which the president tried to position himself as more environmentally friendly than ever. Remember, one of the first things Bush did in office was scuttle the Kyoto treaty, a move AEI lobbied heavily for. The neo-con think tank, which has received more than $1.5 million from ExxonMobil over the last decade, has long advocated for environmentally unsound policy. The AEI website is littered with articles penned by in-house scholars that carry restrained titles such as "The Kyoto Treaty Deserved to Die," and "The Global Warming Joke."

So AEI’s $10,000 bribe should come as no surprise. Nor should the notion that the think tank could be carrying water for an administration known to outsource nasty jobs. ExxonMobil is not only AEI’s sugardaddy but also one of Bush’s major backers and the same company that a separate UCS report last month claimed had adopted Big Tobacco’s disinformation tactics and "funneled nearly $16 million between 1998 and 2005 to a network of 43 advocacy organizations that seek to confuse the public on global warming science."



Also

Natural Gas Fracking Industry May Be Paying Off Scientists
http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/2012/07/gas-fracking-science-conflic
t
/
Quote:

Last week the University of Texas provost announced he would re-examine a report by a UT professor that said fracking was safe for groundwater after the revelation that the professor pocketed hundreds of thousands of dollars from a Texas natural gas developer. It’s the latest fusillade in the ongoing battle over the basic facts of fracking in America.

climate_desk_bugTexans aren’t the only ones having their fracking conversations shaped by industry-funded research. Ohioans got their first taste last week of the latest public-relations campaign by the energy policy wing of the US Chamber of Commerce. It’s called “Shale Works for US,” and it aims to spend millions on advertising and public events to sell Ohioans on the idea that fracking is a surefire way to yank the state out of recession.

The campaign is loaded with rosy employment statistics, which trace to an April report authored by professors at three major Ohio universities and funded by, you guessed it, the natural gas industry. The report paints a bright future for fracking in Ohio as a job-creator.

One co-author of the study, Robert Chase, is poised at such a high-traffic crossroads of that state’s natural gas universe that his case was recently taken up by the Ohio Ethics Commission, whose chairman called him “more than a passing participant in the operations of the Ohio oil and gas industry,” and questioned his potential conflicts of interest. As landowners in a suite of natural gas-rich states like Texas and Ohio struggle to to decipher conflicting reports about the safety of fracking, Chase is a piece in what environmental and academic watchdogs call a growing puzzle of industry-funded fracking research with poor disclosure and dubious objectivity.

“It’s hard to find someone who’s truly independant and doesn’t have at least one iron in the fire,” said Ohio oil and gas lease attorney Mark F. Okey. “It’s a good ol’ boys network and they like to take care of their own.”


All this, of course, comes in the middle of Enbridges attempt to shove a new pipeline through here...
http://www.annarbor.com/news/new-enbridge-pipeline-to-be-built-through
-washtenaw-county-amidst-statewide-protest
/

Mind you, the LAST time some township honcho around here went against the wishes of 96% of the township, was Elmer "FUD" Parraghi of Sumpter, who told his constituents that he was making too much money to stop importing Canadian trash to the local landfills, and this resulted in an immediate recall in which more folk showed up to vote him OUT than ever voted him in.
Plus, he was a nut, having been already involved in a knives-drawn confrontation in the parking lot which then resulted in mutual restraining orders served to and by politicos who worked in the same office - our local politics are... weird, at best.

-Frem

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Tuesday, July 31, 2012 5:05 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Why for chrissake is anyone even bothering to respond to rappy?

I've almost broken the addiction... you can too. Just ask me how!

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Tuesday, July 31, 2012 6:08 PM

MAL4PREZ



Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Why for chrissake is anyone even bothering to respond to rappy?

I've almost broken the addiction... you can too. Just ask me how!



Actually, I was replaying to Hero, (OK, not much better than Rap) but also to other folks out there who post this kind of argument - both here and on other sites. They are so in love with this idea that GW science is all about windfalls in funding for "dishonest" GW researchers yet won't ever hold a conversation about who's really making money off of this issue. Do they actually know any scientists and their lifestyles? The scientists I know who are in any way wealthy did it through writing textbooks, scoring good engineering patents, or cleverly investing - and the investments had nothing to do with their research. More importantly, their wealth is NOTHING compared to that of the average corporate oil company schmuk who not only makes a killing of putting carbon in the atmosphere, he/she funds the anti-GW movement (through GOP Superpacs) that started this whole attack-the-scientist plan. Go figure.

Like that sequestration issue some poster once got into here. I forget who, but I remember the extremely lame argument: that GW has been invented by academics who stand to make bazillions off of sequestration research. WTF? Sequestration couldn't make a penny to each thousand dollars pulled in by the minimally regulated production and sales of hydrocarbons. What the hell world do you live in that you see sequestration dollars as an issue, but not oil industry income? Wack!

(Charles Gun would tell me: "now, you KNOW you can't say wack." Oh well. I did anyway.)

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Wednesday, August 1, 2012 2:09 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


I'm betting Rappy keeps that secret list of "hundreds if not thousands" of scientists in the same hiding place as Michele Bachmann and her list of "hundreds of Nobel Prize-winning scientists" who believe in intelligent design. Neither of them has ever been able to produce any such list.

I wonder why...



"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero


"The groin cup and throat protector have about as much ballistic protection as the kneepads I wear when I'm doing a job that requires me to be on my knees." - Troll

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Wednesday, August 1, 2012 7:22 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


As to those "thousands of scientists", here's the kind of stuff it probably comes from:
Quote:

31,000 scientists reject global warming and say "no convincing evidence" that humans can or will cause global warming? But polls show that of scientists working in the field of climate science, and publishing papers on the topic: 97% of the climate scientists surveyed believe “global average temperatures have increased” during the past century; and 97% think human activity is a significant contributing factor in changing mean global temperatures.

While polls of scientists actively working in the filed of climate science indicate strong general agreement that the earth is warming and human activity is a significant factor, the internet is buzzing with blog posts that say 31,000 scientists say there is "no convincing evidence" that humans can or will cause "catastrophic" heating of the atmosphere.

This claim originates from the Oregon Institute of Science and Medicine, which has an online petition (petitionproject.org) that states:
Quote:

We urge the United States government to reject the global warming agreement that was written in Kyoto, Japan in December, 1997, and any other similar proposals. The proposed limits on greenhouse gases would harm the environment, hinder the advance of science and technology, and damage the health and welfare of mankind.

There is no convincing scientific evidence that human release of carbon dioxide, methane, or other greenhouse gases is causing or will, in the foreseeable future, cause catastrophic heating of the Earth's atmosphere and disruption of the Earth's climate. Moreover, there is substantial scientific evidence that increases in atmospheric carbon dioxide produce many beneficial effects upon the natural plant and animal environments of the Earth.

The petition form itself lends a clue as to the nature of the petition. Judging by the form below, one notes that one only needs to mark a check box to show that one has a Ph.D., M.S., or B.S. degree, and then fill in the fields.



Since the results are not verifiable, there is no way to know how many signers have actually earned their degree. Therefore, the integrity of the petition is at the very least, questionable.

Do '31,000 scientists say global warming is not real'? Maybe. but how important a number is that? They are not talking about only climate scientists. You could have a PhD in anthropology or religion, but what expertise does one have in climatology? That is the more important question.

WHAT DO SCIENTISTS REALLY THINK?

What is notable is that the polls indicate there is a perspective difference between working climate scientists and scientists not working in the field climate. When one examines the experts in the field, one sees a significant divergence from the general view. So the more important question for us is, what do 'expert' climate scientists think?

2009 - Examining the Scientific Consensus on Climate Change

1. When compared with pre-1800s levels, do you think that mean global temperatures have generally risen, fallen, or remained relatively constant?

2. Do you think human activity is a significant contributing factor in changing mean global temperatures?
90% of participants answered “risen” to question 1.
82% answered 'yes' to question 2.

Of those with expertise in climate science:

96.2% (76 of 79) answered “risen” to question 1.
97.4% (75 of 77) answered yes to question 2.

Source: EOS, TRANSACTIONS AMERICAN GEOPHYSICAL UNION, VOL. 90, NO. 3, P. 22, 2009

2009 Pew Research Center Poll

84% of scientists say the earth is warming because of human activity.

Asked if they regarded global warming as a very serious problem?

Scientists - 70%
Public - 47%

Source: Pew Research Center

2008 Poll

Scientists agree that humans cause global warming?

97% of the climate scientists surveyed believe “global average temperatures have increased” during the past century.

84% percent say they personally believe human-induced warming is occurring.

74% agree that “currently available scientific evidence” substantiates its occurrence.

5% believe that that human activity does not contribute to greenhouse warming; the rest are unsure.

Climate scientists are skeptical of the media

1% of climate scientists rate either broadcast or cable television news about climate change as “very reliable.”

Source: STATS Poll (+/-4%), George Mason University

1991 Poll

Changing scientific opinion

In 1991 the Gallup organization conducted a telephone survey on global climate change among 400 scientists drawn from membership lists of the American Meteorological Association and the American Geophysical Union.

We repeated several of their questions verbatim, in order to measure changes in scientific opinion over time. On a variety of questions, opinion has consistently shifted toward increased belief in and concern about global warming. Among the changes:

In 1991 only 60% of climate scientists believed that average global temperatures were up, compared to 97% today.

In 1991 only a minority (41%) of climate scientists agreed that then-current scientific evidence “substantiates the occurrence of human-induced warming,” compared to three out of four (74%) today. http://ossfoundation.us/projects/environment/global-warming/myths/3100
0-scientists-say-no-convincing-evidence

If Raptoror anyone else can come up with VERIFIABLE evidence to the contrary, they should offer it or shut up.


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Wednesday, August 1, 2012 8:05 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


I'm guessing their "31,000" scientists is a lot like the "83% of doctors" who are allegedly considering quitting medicine rather than complying with ObamaCare.



"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero


"The groin cup and throat protector have about as much ballistic protection as the kneepads I wear when I'm doing a job that requires me to be on my knees." - Troll

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Wednesday, August 1, 2012 3:09 PM

KPO

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.


Good info, thanks Niki.

It's not personal. It's just war.

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