REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

How "God" evolved

POSTED BY: NIKI2
UPDATED: Tuesday, August 21, 2012 22:18
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Sunday, August 19, 2012 6:45 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Found this interesting:
Quote:

Religious belief is very common in Homo sapiens, with almost all cultures having some kind of supernatural belief that is important to their sense of identity, although that’s about the only unifying characteristic of these ideas. Within the spectrum of human society is a similarly broad spectrum of religious beliefs. These range from the simple “animal spirits” who are responsible for the unexplained (but not much else) to a “High” or “King” God who takes an active role in the world, dictating morals of a people he created.

Given the prevalence and importance of these religious ideas studying them is obviously something which greatly interests many evolutionary anthropologists. This interest is further amplified by the fact it is one of the behaviours which is most distinct from the animal kingdom, with few precedents found even in our closest relatives. Unfortunately, whilst we do have a decent understanding of when religious ideas arose, the hows and whys of their appearance are still unknown.

However, anthropologists have managed to identify certain factors which seem to be associated with the rise of complex religious beliefs (such as the “high” god). Notably, social and economic complexity. For example, animal sacrifice and altars in the Near East are consistently preceded by groups acquiring surplus food (and the economic and social changes associated with such an acquisition). However, not much has been figured out beyond that. Increasing social complexity is correlated with more complex religious ideas, but why?

A myriad of potential causal relationships have been proposed to fill this gap. Complex “high” god ideas could’ve be a way to try and stop free-riders exploiting the work of the group. “Don’t co-operate and God will get you.” Alternatively it could’ve been a method used by a few individuals to cement their power. “God says you should make me your leader.” Now, I (nor the researchers) am not not trying to imply that a god concept was invented by self serving individuals. Rather, it arose and spread organically but this spread was driven by some benefit it conferred in much the same way a beneficial gene might spread throughout the population. Its not even necessarily beneficial, neutral genes can spread too!

In an effort to identify which of these competing ideas was correct two anthropologists decided to do some science. They favoured the hypothesis that the “high” god concept was fostered because it helped strong co-operative bonds develop. This co-operation was necessary for large complex societies and/or those dependent on resource which required extensive co-operative effort. So they predicted that “high” gods would be more prevalent in larger cultures and amongst farming communities (since farming requires a lot of people to work together). They also expected that pastoralists (those who live off a herd of animals they own) would not fit on this trend. Although typically small in number, maintaining a herd requires a lot of work by the entire group.

So they went out and gathered data (albeit from other researchers) on 178 different cultures, comparing their source of food, group size, social complexity and type of religious belief. When analysed this information almost exactly matched their predictions. Amongst foragers – who can easily gather enough food with minimal co-operation between individuals – 88% had either no “high” god or a “high” god which did not bestow morals and did not interact with the world. At the other extreme of the scale, ~40% of groups dependent on intensive agriculture had a “high” god who interfered with the world and gave morals to the group.

Similarly the data on group size and type of god also matched their predictions. 95% of groups with <1,000 individuals lacked a “high” god whilst ~43% of groups with >10,000 members did have a moral giving “high” god. Curiously the percentage does not increase further after that. Belief in a “high” god is no more prevalent in a group with >100,000 members than it is in a group with 10,000 – 99,999 members. This suggests that the threshold at which a “high” god is needed to maintain co-operation is between 10,000 – 99,999 members.

Social complexity data once again fits with these predictions. 80% of egalitarian groups lack the “high” god whilst 40% of groups with either a class system or wealth distinctions (i.e. someone being richer than others) had a “high” god. Pastoralism, again, fits right in with what was expected. The more one depends on animal husbandry the more one has to work together and also the more likely one is to have a “high” god. Indeed, this trend was so powerful that cultures entirely dependent on animal husbandry had a higher rate of “high” god belief than either the largest or most complex societies of other sorts.

All in all this research provides a compelling and well substantiated explanation for the prevalence of “high” gods. As co-operation became more and more important to survival the beliefs which fostered this co-operation also became more and more important and as a result more and more common. Be it a resource that requires a communal effort to gather or a large society which is difficult to manage, situations which demanded co-operation demanded beliefs to bolster this behaviour. This information can provide key insights into the past. For example, we find evidence of a prehistoric tribe performing a ritual but estimates indicate the tribe had <999 members then we know the odds of that ritual involving a “high” god are very small.

That said the picture is still not complete. For example, farming is typically responsible for population growth and so it could only be linked with a “high” god because it is also linked with large populations. Disentangling all these threads will require more work. So the researchers suggest that further research be undertaken to find more information on the ultimate cause of belief in a “high” god, along with working out how some societies can survive without it. How can co-operation be fostered without a binding religious belief?

This is a question that will not only help us understand society but is very key to our future. Co-operation will likely remain the foundation of civilisation but a “high” god may not. Secularity is rising in many countries – arguably for good reason – but we mustn’t forget that religion once played a key role in many societies. We must be sure that we do not loose the glue which binds us together and be sure to develop secular ways of ensuring humanity continues to work together.Charts at http://evoanth.wordpress.com/2012/08/16/ho-god-evolved/


It pretty much mirrors what I've theorized, tho' the underlined part was something I didn't know before. It makes sense, especially as there is strata within religious organizations themselves, but I hadn't considered it before.

religion evolved, it would seem, out of man's necessity for it. The last question posed is a really good one; if we ever manage to get rid of organized religion, what will keep us cooperative?

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Sunday, August 19, 2012 7:02 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:

if we ever manage to get rid of organized religion, what will keep us cooperative?



Fears about the weather going wonky if we don't behave ourselves ?

Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain, for he is us!

Fathom the hypocrisy of a government that requires every citizen to prove they are insured... but not everyone must prove they are a citizen
" We're all just folk. " - Mal

" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall

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Sunday, August 19, 2012 7:16 AM

HKCAVALIER


I'm really not buying that the issue is co-operation. Co-operation is needed for human survival, period. What agriculture created wasn't cooperation, but heirarchy. And pyramidal heirarchy is an unnatural relationship and so requires propaganda to keep it in place. "We get to tell you what to do because it's god's will." Nobody needs religion to be co-operative, it's in our DNA. But to knuckle under to our "betters?" Hell yeah, you need some serious psy to conduct that kind of warfare against human nature.

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

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Sunday, August 19, 2012 8:30 AM

PIRATENEWS

John Lee, conspiracy therapist at Hollywood award-winner History Channel-mocked SNL-spoofed PirateNew.org wooHOO!!!!!!


Where does the govt god of the atheists, Communists and comrad Nikovich12 fit into this evolution?

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Sunday, August 19, 2012 11:32 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)



Without religion, good people will do good things, and evil people will do evil things. To get good people to do evil things, though, you need religion.



"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero

Mitt Romney, introducing his running mate: "Join me in welcoming the next President of the United States, Paul Ryan!"

Rappy's response? "You're lying, gullible ( believing in some BS you heard on msnbc ) or hard of hearing."

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Monday, August 20, 2012 6:53 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Oh, well said, Mike! Also, to keep a group of people in power for thousands of years, apparently, you need religion. I don't recall in all my reading of history that the "church" has ever been overthrown, except by other religions, and even then, the heirarchy has continued... Oh, and it's very useful in convincing people to go to war, too. And brainwashing, let's not forget brainwashing (tho' your statement kinda covered that one.


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Monday, August 20, 2012 10:20 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!



In heated debates w/ fundies, more than once, I had one of them make the comment that, if there were no God™, then there'd be nothing to hold them back from acting on the things they REALLY wanted to do, which included rape, murder, theft, etc...

Apparently, the risk of breaking the law and going to jail, or having the family name disgraced for their actions didn't dampen their desire to do these sorts of things, but the belief in an imaginary sky god did.

So, "hurray for Jesus!" I guess.

Fathom the hypocrisy of a government that requires every citizen to prove they are insured... but not everyone must prove they are a citizen
" We're all just folk. " - Mal

" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall

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Monday, August 20, 2012 1:38 PM

JONGSSTRAW


Ever watch LOCK UP episodes on MSNBC? Doesn't seem, at least to me, that belief in God has any influence on criminal behavior. Brutality and sadism are running amok in America, and if we're all supposed to be God's special creatures, then it's clear that there's something terribly wrong with the assembly line.

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Monday, August 20, 2012 4:36 PM

FREMDFIRMA



Well, I suppose that depends on your perception of their "God".

Considering I believe that entity deliberately fosters brutality and sadism in order to feed on human misery, I am sure the twisted abomination is quite pleased with things as they are.
And those causing it, they ARE it's special creatures - those weak willed, authority submissives and damaged psyches so easy to influence and manipulate into causing the carnage it needs to get its fix.

To turn it's own supposed words back upon it - By their works you shall know them.
And that eldrich ball of malice and its phony pretense of benevolence, I know all too well.

What is Maltheism
http://www.beliefnet.com/boards/message_list.asp?discussionID=164781

-F

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Tuesday, August 21, 2012 1:02 AM

KPO

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:

In heated debates w/ fundies, more than once, I had one of them make the comment that, if there were no God™, then there'd be nothing to hold them back from acting on the things they REALLY wanted to do, which included rape, murder, theft, etc...

Apparently, the risk of breaking the law and going to jail, or having the family name disgraced for their actions didn't dampen their desire to do these sorts of things, but the belief in an imaginary sky god did.

So, "hurray for Jesus!" I guess.



I think 'Jesus' is their first barrier against these kind of actions. But just because they never go past the first barrier, doesn't mean there are no others.

It's not personal. It's just war.

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Tuesday, August 21, 2012 7:29 AM

AGENTROUKA


Quote:

Originally posted by kpo:
Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:

In heated debates w/ fundies, more than once, I had one of them make the comment that, if there were no God™, then there'd be nothing to hold them back from acting on the things they REALLY wanted to do, which included rape, murder, theft, etc...

Apparently, the risk of breaking the law and going to jail, or having the family name disgraced for their actions didn't dampen their desire to do these sorts of things, but the belief in an imaginary sky god did.

So, "hurray for Jesus!" I guess.



I think 'Jesus' is their first barrier against these kind of actions. But just because they never go past the first barrier, doesn't mean there are no others.

It's not personal. It's just war.



What I find disturbing is that they admit to wanting to do those things in the first place. That there is scary. Mentally healthy people don't generally need reasons NOT to do these things.

I find it shockingly troubling that something like "it would hurt the other person and I can empathize with that pain" is not even mentioned. Shouldn't that be the instinctive gut reaction for... everyone? Even before "Jesus would disapprove" and or "it's not legal" or "I might get caught"?

If Jesus is their first barrier, they are already missing at least one important one. Scary.

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Tuesday, August 21, 2012 7:57 AM

MAL4PREZ


Quote:

Originally posted by AgentRouka:
What I find disturbing is that they admit to wanting to do those things in the first place. That there is scary. Mentally healthy people don't generally need reasons NOT to do these things.

I find it shockingly troubling that something like "it would hurt the other person and I can empathize with that pain" is not even mentioned. Shouldn't that be the instinctive gut reaction for... everyone? Even before "Jesus would disapprove" and or "it's not legal" or "I might get caught"?

If Jesus is their first barrier, they are already missing at least one important one. Scary.



My feeling is that a religious schmoe (or schmoe-ette) may *say* this about themselves, but what they're really after is control of other people's behaviors. You know: all those unknown people out there want to do nothing but bad things to me, but if I believe in God and make sure everyone else believes in God too, then those bad people won't hurt me.

Kind of like drug laws - I don't need them to stop *me* from smoking pot, but to make sure my doctor won't be stoned when I get surgery. And abortion laws aren't there to stop *me* from getting an abortion, but to make sure that all those filthy sluts don't get away with being filthy sluts.

Yeah, religion is all about scared people trying to feel safe and in control. And superior, of course. They like to know that they'll win in the end, and get to kick back on a cloud smugly sipping champagne watching the heathens below burn. Religious nuts might lose every logic-based argument, but they can always walk away feeling like winners because they know the non-believer has it coming.

Sadly, I'm not making this up out of thin air. I've seen this kind of thing in otherwise reasonable seeming people.

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Tuesday, August 21, 2012 8:48 AM

REDREAD

The poster formerly known as yinyang.


Quote:

Originally posted by MAL4PREZ:
Quote:

Originally posted by AgentRouka:
What I find disturbing is that they admit to wanting to do those things in the first place. That there is scary. Mentally healthy people don't generally need reasons NOT to do these things.

I find it shockingly troubling that something like "it would hurt the other person and I can empathize with that pain" is not even mentioned. Shouldn't that be the instinctive gut reaction for... everyone? Even before "Jesus would disapprove" and or "it's not legal" or "I might get caught"?

If Jesus is their first barrier, they are already missing at least one important one. Scary.



My feeling is that a religious schmoe (or schmoe-ette) may *say* this about themselves, but what they're really after is control of other people's behaviors. You know: all those unknown people out there want to do nothing but bad things to me, but if I believe in God and make sure everyone else believes in God too, then those bad people won't hurt me.



Another thing is that some people also genuinely believe they were (if they converted) or would be terrible people without God. "If God is the source of all good, and only through him are we saved, etc., then without Him I'd be nothing but a dirty no-good sinner (as opposed to being a sinner that's trying to do better)." Generally, people like this aren't much better or worse than anyone else in terms of actions. It's just some sort of humility/self-flagellation thing.

Also, people like this tend to have Jesus on the brain. I mean, their #1 relationship is with God, so of course they think about God first. WWJD is waaaaay more important than empathy. (Ignore that WWJD often involves empathy and only focus on where he agrees with his smiting father/self. Nobody likes the hippy Jesus. )


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Tuesday, August 21, 2012 10:06 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


What an interesting discussion. Few posts, if any, disagreeing with the concept that mankind "needs" religion/God/Jesus, that God may be something mankind CREATED for their own needs, rather than being the Creator. I find that interesting.

I also agree wholeheartedly with Agent; that's kind of what TPTB in religion teaches, isn't it? That without God to look over us and "forgive" us our sins, we're just trash beyond redemption. I don't understand people who think like that--but then I neither understand nor accept the concept of God as necessary to "keep us in line" in the first place.

It's interesting that Catholicism seems to believe we're unredemed sinners ANYWAY, and only by confessing and doing penance can we get back in God's good graces. Fear seems to work well.


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Tuesday, August 21, 2012 11:04 AM

REDREAD

The poster formerly known as yinyang.


Quote:

What an interesting discussion. Few posts, if any, disagreeing with the concept that mankind "needs" religion/God/Jesus, that God may be something mankind CREATED for their own needs, rather than being the Creator. I find that interesting.


For my part, I took a philosophy of religion class, and it pretty much put me off arguing against the existence of any supernatural entities. It's a total waste of time IMO, because there's a completely different standard of evidence at play that I refuse to accept.

Whether there are or aren't any god-like creatures in existence, I definitely agree that people choose to picture them in very human ways. And how people picture their God, gods, ether, etc., says a lot about them and how they practice their religion.

Were you really expecting any heated discussion about this? Whatever other disagreements we have in RWED, even our religious posters tend to be pretty critical of religious organizations. I mean, you're Buddhish (not a typo), aren't you? And yet here you are with this article.


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Tuesday, August 21, 2012 11:07 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Quote:

says a lot about them and how they practice their religion.
Mmmm, good point.

I put the article up because I found it interesting. I find a lot of stuff interesting, even religion in its way, and I try to put up stuff that isn't just about politics when I can. That's all.

Wondering what you meant by "buddish"...think I have an idea, but won't comment.


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Tuesday, August 21, 2012 11:21 AM

JONGSSTRAW


All I know is that as a kid growing up in the 60's I was always terrified of religion. I hated everything about it, and I'd have nightmares all the time. Fortunately my parents became less devout themselves over time, and one day it was all over for me having to be any part of it. Thank God, right!?

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Tuesday, August 21, 2012 11:32 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by Jongsstraw:
All I know is that as a kid growing up in the 60's I was always terrified of religion. I hated everything about it, and I'd have nightmares all the time. Fortunately my parents became less devout themselves over time, and one day it was all over for me having to be any part of it. Thank God, right!?



I just never 'got' the whole religion thing. I mean, I went to school, and that's where you learn stuff. OK, got it. Then, ( occasionally ) , I'd was sent to Sunday school, where it sorta kinda looked like 'real' school, but we didn't have homework, which was fine. But we weren't ever taught anything that was REAL. It was nothing but stories of old guys w/ beards, running around in the desert, 1000's of years ago. Burning bushes that talked, and stone tablets w/ God's Top 10 rules on them... even at a young age, I was skeptical.

Fathom the hypocrisy of a government that requires every citizen to prove they are insured... but not everyone must prove they are a citizen
" We're all just folk. " - Mal

" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall

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Tuesday, August 21, 2012 11:42 AM

REDREAD

The poster formerly known as yinyang.


Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:
Quote:

says a lot about them and how they practice their religion.
Mmmm, good point.

I put the article up because I found it interesting. I find a lot of stuff interesting, even religion in its way, and I try to put up stuff that isn't just about politics when I can. That's all.

Wondering what you meant by "buddish"...think I have an idea, but won't comment.




Ah. I may be reading more into your words than you intend. Tone is hard on the Internet, after all. I read your "interesting" with regards to a lack of push back to be surprise, because in my experience "interesting" is very rarely a wholly neutral term.

Buddhish = Buddist-ish, just squished together a little. Basically, not wholly on-board with Buddhism. I think you said at some point that you don't believe in all the mystical elements of Buddhism, like reincarnation?



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Tuesday, August 21, 2012 4:53 PM

FREMDFIRMA


Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:
I also agree wholeheartedly with Agent; that's kind of what TPTB in religion teaches, isn't it? That without God to look over us and "forgive" us our sins, we're just trash beyond redemption. I don't understand people who think like that--but then I neither understand nor accept the concept of God as necessary to "keep us in line" in the first place.


Basically Niki, it's the EVIL version of this.



If they can sell us that particular line of shit, that we're all just beasts in need of a leash, then selling us each progressive one becomes easier.
I never bought it, never.

-Frem

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Tuesday, August 21, 2012 10:18 PM

OONJERAH



Not sayin' I know, 'cause I'm aware enough to see my childish ignorance.
The Universe exists; we live in this One: this tiny galaxy, this phase of reality
among many.

Human experience has a lot of goodness & joy, also a lot of badness & pain.
What caused the Universe & Us? I do not know. Mostly agnostic, I do lean
toward creationism.

My concept of the Most Likely God is: It is so far above & beyond us, I liken
myself to an earthworm in comparison. It is not possible for me to understand
God while I am living in a human body: our minds are so tiny, limited. So when-
ever we project human characteristics & purposes, and particularly human
Egotism onto God, then we are obviously mistaken.

The Christian Religion as I understand it: Mostly crap. Purpose to control
people, make money, accrue power.
Jesus Christ as I like to see him: Probably a great prophet. One of several.


=========================
I am convinced that life is 10% what happens to me and 90% of how I react to it. ~Charles R Swindoll

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